Volt Rework Feedback [Post Update 18.13]

[Ventura_Highway]

7 minutes ago, Sabuuchi said:

The same people who honestly believe that shieldgating would hurt the game.

How would you put it in? Like, if they set it so that you the shieldgate reset after you got back to 50% or something, then all I would have to do is cast Discharge/Capacitance to get it back up. Volt and Mag would be functionally immortal and be encouraged to have minimal shields.

It's harder than you think.

Edited December 3, 2017 by Ventura_Highway

[Vafthrudnir]

3 minutes ago, Sabuuchi said:

After 2 revisits, Volt is still a one trick pony speed buffer with mediocre damage, mediocre CC and about as paper thin as you could possibly game in terms of survivable. He is punished for being mobile (with his shield) despite being the mobility frame. His cap is reached faster than before with the damage boost and the devs seem adamant about leaving him like this despite saying they are "Looking at feedback." They've been "Looking at feedback" for over a year now and it feels like they didn't listen to anyone other than internal playtesters. The same people who honestly believe that shieldgating would hurt the game. (But that's a whole different can of worms I don't want to get into.)

Guess we'll just keep discussing after the 10th fix.

[DeltaPangaea]

3 hours ago, Ventura_Highway said:

How would you put it in? Like, if they set it so that you the shieldgate reset after you got back to 50% or something, then all I would have to do is cast Discharge/Capacitance to get it back up. Volt and Mag would be functionally immortal and be encouraged to have minimal shields.

It's harder than you think.

How long would you expect the protection to last for? It'd only be for like a second at most.

The primary effect of shield gating is to provide a moment where you're seeing that you're dying. Even if you can't respond to it, that second would greatly lessen the 'that's bullS#&$' feeling of getting oneshot.

[Ventura_Highway]

3 minutes ago, DeltaPangaea said:

It'd only be for like a second at most.

Discharge has a cast time of one second, and Polarize has even less.

I'm not saying I hate Shield Gating or anything, I'm saying that according to the developers they're having trouble sticking it in in a meaningful way, and I have not personally come up with what I think is a satisfactory solution, so I can see why.

[DeltaPangaea]

36 minutes ago, Ventura_Highway said:

Discharge has a cast time of one second, and Polarize has even less.

I'm not saying I hate Shield Gating or anything, I'm saying that according to the developers they're having trouble sticking it in in a meaningful way, and I have not personally come up with what I think is a satisfactory solution, so I can see why.

Maybe don't have it based on the amount of shields you have?

Perhaps make the effect recharge over a short period of time while your shields are active, so filling them yourself via abilities or consumables will get you shield back faster, but it still needs to stay active for a little bit before you get the gate back.

[Ventura_Highway]

6 minutes ago, DeltaPangaea said:

Maybe don't have it based on the amount of shields you have?

Perhaps make the effect recharge over a short period of time while your shields are active, so filling them yourself via abilities or consumables will get you shield back faster, but it still needs to stay active for a little bit before you get the gate back.

I have been on a rather long "No stop!" spree here today, but this doesn't sound half-bad.

It's possible that because the nature of Warframe is that enemies bleed in from every possibly entrance into a room, that the one-second of no-die the shieldgate grants you will result in someone retreating temporarily to recover shield, only to be plinked to death by a stray bullet or two, but overall this seems rather reasonable, I think.

When I have time to play extensively I'll think about how this change would impact how things go in my fights.

[DeltaPangaea]

1 minute ago, Ventura_Highway said:

I have been on a rather long "No stop!" spree here today, but this doesn't sound half-bad.

It's possible that because the nature of Warframe is that enemies bleed in from every possibly entrance into a room, that the one-second of no-die the shieldgate grants you will result in someone retreating temporarily to recover shield, only to be plinked to death by a stray bullet or two, but overall this seems rather reasonable, I think.

When I have time to play extensively I'll think about how this change would impact how things go in my fights.

Even in that situation, they had an opportunity to respond to the danger and took it. A lot more pleasant for game-feel than 'Welp I'm dead" in any case.

I'm also pondering the design space that shield-gating could open up. Effects which activate upon it being triggered, lengthen the duration, or boost the recharge time. Lots of possibilities.

[Ventura_Highway]

1 hour ago, DeltaPangaea said:

Even in that situation, they had an opportunity to respond to the danger and took it. A lot more pleasant for game-feel than 'Welp I'm dead" in any case.

I'm also pondering the design space that shield-gating could open up. Effects which activate upon it being triggered, lengthen the duration, or boost the recharge time. Lots of possibilities.

Affirmative. Arguably in a tileset like the Corpus Outpost, a very easy solution would be to duck into the airvents in a lot of the level's tiles. That should work most of the time.

To make a long story short I've thought about system of mods for Warframes in the arsenal that allow for defense tweaks to make constant CC less necessary for high level combat, and to make Shields a more attractive defense option. If I have anything to say on this matter related to your shield effects, it's that I think those would fit somewhere in there, but such a system would need rigorous development to ensure that it doesn't end up as a failure.

It also kinda reminds me of Borderlands, neither a good nor a bad thing. At the very least, as far as creative potential goes, if was an effect that caused an increased damage buff, radial knockdown or freeze, anything like that, Harrow would be able to manually trigger it via Penance, if I'm not mistaken, and anyone else could actually if they were willing to bring some explosives to blow their shields up on.

Edited December 3, 2017 by Ventura_Highway

[Batwing]

Rough Ideas I had for a sorta new volt kit.

 

1.Shock - Make it scale off of your secondary and make it also chargeable to where when it's fully charged turns from a shock to a like a lightning bolt javelin you throw with added puncture and punch through.

2.Speed - Keep it the same but also make him cast faster and effect his other abilities.Like shock charging faster and such.Also make the shock aura not an augment change the augment to a small energy field maybe for team mates ? Helping them regen energy or shields ?

3.Shield - Keep it about the same but remove the huge energy consumption while moving just make it take energy over time while holding it.

4.Discharge - Scrap the old concept and let us use those dagger looking things on his back. Make them like a dual lightning saber type exalted weapon. Scale off melee weapon naturally and when you pick up shield turns it into a sword shield combo.Speed would increase their melee speed naturally and shock would add 10% more electric damage per enemy hit with the charged attack.The shock charge attack could just come out instantly for a bigger energy cost and of course this would be a toggle like most exalted weapons.

Would be a bit more interesting and with the weapon scaling would make it scale better, and he'd actually be an an alternative to gun play and not a CC like apparently they don't want him to be or mean him to be.

Just some vague idea's I've been thinking about. I hear they don't want him to be too strong cause he's a starter frame idk if that's true but then what about Excalibur ? I know he's the poster boy but he could carry you through a lot of the game built right. Volt is a really interesting warframe and one of the oldest love his looks and everything just always noticed those off dual dagger looking things on his back hip.

Feel free to pick through the flaws I've seen a lot more effort put in other peoples posts of ideas just wanted to throw my thoughts into the pool.

[Cytobel]

On 11/22/2017 at 12:32 AM, Redstoneman said:

*snip*

Point 1:  His name is Volt, not Sonic.  Sorry, Speed has no place in his kit by the same logic you use.  I disagree with the removal of Discharge, but would rather kill the pointless pants-loading that is a damage cap.  Someone saw big numbers and assumed they would simply translate in a meaningful fashion, forgetting that his "damage" is ELECTRICITY!

Point 2:  Don't worry!  They'll see that slowing a 'Frame with such an emphasis on speed will-oh hell, they UTTERLY IGNORED all the feedback about Riot Shield slowing us while draining energy per meter creating anti-synergy with Speed, just like the wildly divergent build requirements between his skills and his caster stats versus his ability to effectively act like any form of caster.

Point 3:  Agreed, but Base Volt needs an energy pool of at least 225 as well, and BOTH need sprint speed bumped to 1.2 or 1.3 at the least.  In the past I've argued that Speed has been a major problem, because too many people discovered it when it was the only thing he had that you could actually build for, and as such ignored everything else you could accomplish.  The thing is that I've discovered how tough I can be with a BALANCED Capacitance build (especially augmented with Arcane Barrier) that can still make use of Speed.  I can knock out Sorties easily enough (barring Spy), and I've found that sometimes it's better to sit still than run in circles.  ES' crit damage buff is solid enough to pay CLOSE attention to.

The fact is that I will NEVER support dank sanic-ification of a 'Frame that has MUCH MORE potential than just running around.  Moreover, given the amount of damage I can stand up to, I'd say that Volt has potential as a shield tank IF DE EVER allows that to be part of the game.  He needs more than Speed offers in the slot, and FAR more than Discharge can turn out with the cap.Shock needs to stop targeting corpses, and Riot Shield is STILL a mess.

It feels like DE has no clue what the hell Volt needs to do.  They keep saying "he's not X", but so far that means he's not a damage dealer, not a tank, not a CC 'Frame, and NEVER a "potent alternative to gunplay".  It's pathetic, and it feels like a deliberate insult.

[Cytobel]

On 11/30/2017 at 11:35 AM, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

Yeah no. This post is embarrassing. This also counts as Dev-Bashing, so I suggest deleting this immediately. Some people happen to like it, including myself.

(also, what's with the color schemes? the original colors look better, lol.)

Some people think this skin looks like absolute crap.  This was a point made LOUDLY apparent to the Devs, and they went ahead anyway.  Saying that this is "Dev-bashing" is like saying that a person who walks into a door and injures themselves should be entitled to sue the door's manufacturer.  They CLEARLY asked for negative feedback after ignoring seriously negative opinions that had been aired so loudly.  It's a divisive skin, splitting the community.  It can even be viewed as a deliberate insult, given the nature of Volt's slant-nerf "tweak".

Suggesting the post should be deleted and then attacking the person trying to fashionframe the skin after CARING ENOUGH TO BUY IT means you're attacking someone for disagreeing with you and the aesthetic sense of this person.  This is hipocracy and indicative of recognition of the issues those of us who intensely dislike the skin have, as well as tacit acknowledgement of them.

"This post is embarrassing".  Appropriate, both ways.  I actually agree that this could have been approached MUCH more effectively.

I WANT to like the skin.  There are elements of it that are REALLY good (the little arc reactor-like things, the metallic scales, some of the Tron lighting that DOESN'T try to mimic a lightning bolt), but the lumpy, misshapen, half-melted mess that this skin is lacks certain Volt identifiers.  A little work could have tied it into Volt a bit better, and I'd have been all for it (assuming it didn't make the other helmets look so out of place).  Fact is I do NOT like it.  It doesn't look like a Volt skin at ALL, let alone anything that involves electricity or speed.

Edited December 4, 2017 by Cytobel

[Cytobel]

On 11/30/2017 at 9:11 PM, DeltaPangaea said:

Everyone's going on and on about Discharge this and Discharge that, completely ignoring how garbage Shock is.

Giving it an energy refund would actually resolve its problems a teeny bit, I like the idea.

_{Although even then, its damage needs to be higher, 200 is pathetic. Frost's Freeze does like 500.}

On the nature of people knocking Shock:  Electricity sucks in Warframe.  Shields sponge it like water, things supposed to be weak to it usually pack Alloy armor, armor in general, or shields.  This means that even Machinery- and Robotic-type enemies are usually toughened against it's effects.  Ergo, Shock is bad damage and super-short pocket CC against most everything above ~level 25.

Back before the rework, Volt had a better iteneration of Shock that DIDN'T auto-target corpses.  This meant it wasn't wasting potential damage and CC(ish) on things that aren't relevant anymore to the player.

Imagine if Shock applied an Electricity resist debuff to targets hit.  Then Shock ACTUALLY synergizes with Discharge and DOES SOMETHING on it's own.  Give the Shock-charged Electric Shield an automatic Electric proc.  Make Volt dump a ball lightning if he Shocks while Speed is active and he's moving.  BAM!  Job's done, Shock works.

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

On 11/30/2017 at 1:59 PM, giovanniluca said:

Say hello to Volt prototrash skin...

 

23 minutes ago, Cytobel said:

Saying that this is "Dev-bashing" is like saying that a person who walks into a door and injurs themselves should be entitled to sue the door's manufacturer.

You apparently don't know what Dev-Bashing is...

_____________

24 minutes ago, Cytobel said:

Suggesting the post should be deleted and then attacking the person trying to fashionframe the skin after CARING ENOUGH TO BUY IT means you're attacking someone for disagreeing with you and the aesthetic sense of this person. 

No, you apparently don't know what attacking is either. I told them to delete the post before they receive a warning on the forums.

27 minutes ago, Cytobel said:

It doesn't look like a Volt skin at ALL, let alone anything that involves electricity or speed.

I really hope people know by now that this isn't a deluxe skin...

[Vafthrudnir]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

I really hope people know by now that this isn't a deluxe skin...

It's a confirmed to be a deluxe apparently, I have no source.

[Cytobel]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

 

You apparently don't know what Dev-Bashing is...

_____________

No, you apparently don't know what attacking is either. I told them to delete the post before they receive a warning on the forums.

I really hope people know by now that this isn't a deluxe skin...

Point the first, dropping a "tweak" like this one AND a lumpy, misshapen skin can be viewed as insulting the Volt playerbase.  This means that the Devs were prepared for caustic language.  You call someone out for something they had to know they could recieve, just as the Devs had to understand that they were open to just this sort of response.  It's a moot point.

The attack came in the form of a snarky, flippant remark about someone's attempts at coloring the skin, not your pressure to have the poster remove the comment.  It's early, so reading or grammatical mistakes are likely to occur.  Fact is, I suspect that you didn't even understand why I called this an attack.

As to the "Proto Skin" bit, that's sweetly misguided.  The Proto Skins came from models in Dark Sector.  This skin does not represent ANY form of work from that title, which is or could actually be a positive sign!  The problem is that the skin is in a COMPLETELY different cast from both the Proto Skins and Delux Skins.  I think the problem people have is that DE didn't revamp, they renamed and dropped it anyway, DESPITE the fact that the naming convention they chose was inappropriate AND the skin was objected to.

I can understand the logic that went into this decision (waste not, after all), but this recent tweak, the previous rework, and the way Volt is being handled in general (he lacks any roll definition or useful damage, and his limited CC is under attack) suggests that Digital Extremes isn't sparing any real design thought on Volt.  Couple this with the skin and you have a volatile recipie.  I'd argue that the skin would be better recieved if we had the feeling that DE cared about the feedback we've given and Volt's performance in light of the current generation of 'Frames.

[Cryone]

18 minutes ago, Cytobel said:

Point the first, dropping a "tweak" like this one AND a lumpy, misshapen skin can be viewed as insulting the Volt playerbase.  This means that the Devs were prepared for caustic language.  You call someone out for something they had to know they could recieve, just as the Devs had to understand that they were open to just this sort of response.  It's a moot point.

The attack came in the form of a snarky, flippant remark about someone's attempts at coloring the skin, not your pressure to have the poster remove the comment.  It's early, so reading or grammatical mistakes are likely to occur.  Fact is, I suspect that you didn't even understand why I called this an attack.

As to the "Proto Skin" bit, that's sweetly misguided.  The Proto Skins came from models in Dark Sector.  This skin does not represent ANY form of work from that title, which is or could actually be a positive sign!  The problem is that the skin is in a COMPLETELY different cast from both the Proto Skins and Delux Skins.  I think the problem people have is that DE didn't revamp, they renamed and dropped it anyway, DESPITE the fact that the naming convention they chose was inappropriate AND the skin was objected to.

I can understand the logic that went into this decision (waste not, after all), but this recent tweak, the previous rework, and the way Volt is being handled in general (he lacks any roll definition or useful damage, and his limited CC is under attack) suggests that Digital Extremes isn't sparing any real design thought on Volt.  Couple this with the skin and you have a volatile recipie.  I'd argue that the skin would be better recieved if we had the feeling that DE cared about the feedback we've given and Volt's performance in light of the current generation of 'Frames.

Some posts ago, there was a Tweet from Scott. He comfirms that Volt's not CC frame, so apparently they have some thoughts about it, but for sure we need to wait till they figure out what to do with Volt himself.

And about skin...There're 2 camps as always, someone likes, some no. As I mantioned previously: personaly, i found something in it, that makes me think that it is not total mess, there're some interesting parts of it. Not in love, but still no hate.

Tweet:

Spoiler

 

 

Edited December 4, 2017 by Cryone
Skin feedback (again)

[Cytobel]

17 minutes ago, Cryone said:

Some posts ago, there was a Tweet from Scott. He comfirms that Volt's not CC frame, so apparently they have some thoughts about it, but for sure we need to wait till they figure out what to do with Volt himself.

And about skin...There're 2 camps as always, someone likes, some no. As I mantioned previously: personaly, i found something in it, that makes me think that it is not total mess, there're some interesting parts of it. Not in love, but still no hate.

Tweet:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Thank you.  I can agree with people being able to enjoy different things.  Even if I feel revulsion for the skin, I respect that someone else can like it.

As I've said, I suspect that some of us (read: me) might have better recieved the skin if the tweak had done things FOR Volt, rather than continued the trends of the rework.

Sorry if I'm being overly abrasive to people who don't deserve it, but right now this is not something I feel good about.

[Cryone]

10 minutes ago, Cytobel said:

Thank you.  I can agree with people being able to enjoy different things.  Even if I feel revulsion for the skin, I respect that someone else can like it.

As I've said, I suspect that some of us (read: me) might have better recieved the skin if the tweak had done things FOR Volt, rather than continued the trends of the rework.

Sorry if I'm being overly abrasive to people who don't deserve it, but right now this is not something I feel good about.

It's ok. There's always to consider: Many men, many minds.

But one thing can be sure, Syandana and Hammer (especially HAMMER) cosmetics are really done badly. (still in my oppinion)

Edited December 4, 2017 by Cryone

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

40 minutes ago, Cytobel said:

Point the first, dropping a "tweak" like this one AND a lumpy, misshapen skin can be viewed as insulting the Volt playerbase. 

People who are on the forums aren't the only ones that play Volt. Same went for the Ember skin where the people who don't use the forums really liked it.

42 minutes ago, Cytobel said:

The attack came in the form of a snarky, flippant remark about someone's attempts at coloring the skin, not your pressure to have the poster remove the comment.  It's early, so reading or grammatical mistakes are likely to occur.  Fact is, I suspect that you didn't even understand why I called this an attack.

 

Spoiler

But you said this:

1 hour ago, Cytobel said:

...means you're attacking someone for disagreeing with you and the aesthetic sense of this person.

 

 

45 minutes ago, Cytobel said:

As to the "Proto Skin" bit, that's sweetly misguided.  The Proto Skins came from models in Dark Sector.  This skin does not represent ANY form of work from that title, which is or could actually be a positive sign! 

No, the Volt Proto Skin is based on Dark Sector while the Excalibur Proto-Armor and Nyx Nemesis skins come from the models in Dark Sector. I have to say that the Volt skin does give a bit of a Dark Sector feel.

48 minutes ago, Cytobel said:

I think the problem people have is that DE didn't revamp, they renamed and dropped it anyway, DESPITE the fact that the naming convention they chose was inappropriate AND the skin was objected to.

Same with the Ember one. And hey, people liked it. It's not like you have to buy the skin, but some people enjoy this look.

49 minutes ago, Cytobel said:

I can understand the logic that went into this decision (waste not, after all), but this recent tweak, the previous rework, and the way Volt is being handled in general (he lacks any roll definition or useful damage, and his limited CC is under attack) suggests that Digital Extremes isn't sparing any real design thought on Volt.  Couple this with the skin and you have a volatile recipie.  I'd argue that the skin would be better recieved if we had the feeling that DE cared about the feedback we've given and Volt's performance in light of the current generation of 'Frames.

Same with Chroma, Zephyr, Mag, and some others. Mag nor Chroma got anything with their Deluxe skins and Zephyr has only had one ability for 2 years now.

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

2 minutes ago, Cryone said:

Syandana and Hammer (especially HAMMER) cosmetics are really done badly. (still in my oppinion)

I can agree that those are absolutely dreadful.

[Cytobel]

The seaweed sneeze and the broken badminton racquet look terrible to me as well.

[Vafthrudnir]

49 minutes ago, Cryone said:

Volt's not CC frame

Fun fact is that the community believed he was CC for years.

[Cytobel]

On 12/2/2017 at 5:28 PM, Ventura_Highway said:

How would you put it in? Like, if they set it so that you the shieldgate reset after you got back to 50% or something, then all I would have to do is cast Discharge/Capacitance to get it back up. Volt and Mag would be functionally immortal and be encouraged to have minimal shields.

It's harder than you think.

Actually, this is an interesting point.  I was sort of banking on some form of shield gating entering the game when I snagged 2 full sets of Arcane Barrier.  That plus Capacitance makes my generalist build VERY tough to kill (aside from Toxin damage), and outside of awful duration on Speed (I wonder if a toggle Speed would work better, or if we could have a bump in base Duration so we didn't have to build towards 150%-200% Duration) I can do anything else quite well.

Growing Power gives me the required bump to Strength on procs for Speed.  I really also wish we had the higher base sprint so I didn't need to use Rush, but whatever.

The thing is that I don't feel like there are hardly any ways to build for all of Volt's skills without feeling like he's just seriously underpowered.  I often wonder how good my Volt build really is, and how much of it is about my Rivens.  Back to @Ventura_Highway's point, there are many factors to consider, and making it work seems harder than it first appears.

It'd really help if DE would stop going for half-measures here.

[Ventura_Highway]

6 hours ago, Cytobel said:

Someone saw big numbers and assumed they would simply translate in a meaningful fashion, forgetting that his "damage" is ELECTRICITY!

Are you talking about me since I stuck that Discharge analysis thread in General?

Edited December 4, 2017 by Ventura_Highway

[Mudfam]

4 hours ago, Cytobel said:

awful duration on Speed

 

Just why does speed have such a tiny duration? I mean, let's look at every other buff in the game:

Banshee Sonar                        30s

Banshee Silence                      30s

Chroma Elemental Ward          25s

Chroma Vex Armor                   25s

Ember Accelerant                    30s

Equinox Metamorphosis           25s

Equinox    Rest & Rage            22s

Gara Splinter Storm                 22s

Harrow Penance                      lots

Harrow Thurible                       35s

Mesa Shooting Gallery            30s

Mesa Shatter Shield                25s

Mirage Hall of Mirrors              25s

Mirage Eclipse                         20s

Nekros Shadows of the Dead  30++s

Nidus Parasitic Link                 60s

Octavia Metronome                 20s

Rhino Roar                             30s

Saryn Toxic Lash                     30s

Titania Tribute                         90/120s

Trinity Link                              12s

Valkyr Warcry                         15++s

Wukong Cloud Walker            25s

Zephyr Turbulence                 20s

Volt Speed                             10s

 

WTF..?

The only things that come close to having as short a duration as Speed are Trinity's link and Loki's and Ash's invisibility, which are basically god mode abilities, not a crappy speed buff.

20s seems like an absolute minimum for a buff you want to maintain as part of your basic gameplay without it becoming extremely annoying. Worse, this is a party buff, and one that some people don't like and therefore can opt out of. These people actually think they're being trolled when a Volt constantly spams speed, they don't realise that's the only way to keep the buff going...