Why DE were right to nerf Prism, and why other mapwide disabling powers must be next

[-Temp0-]

Just now, Fifield said:

It's still cheesy cheesy Trin.  You don't need damage reduction when nothing can shoot at you.  Everyone used to use Bastille.  You can still use it, Prism, Sound Quake, Fear, Stomp, Molecular Prime etc.

I like how people that tbarely even play something are talking about that. Already played several LoRs to test this today all and I know what I'm talking about.

No cheesing trinities anymore, no trinities except EV now for that matter and playing as it now sucks more than ever because energy will be never enough for the teammates thanks for the stupid**s nerfs, playing a support never been so tedious and punishing. And from all that bunch, the reliable CC is the only one of them all, and even then it's barely enough to drag the team through while still needing to resurrect them every other minute.

Quote

Secondly, DE reduced the number of enemies

They reduced sht, the number is still the same +/- 10% as usual. And by reducing the targets to ev, do those ***tards even realize that players will never got to the raids bearing in mind that they will need to replenish their energy themselves each time that they will need that energy? By doing so (although the enemies are still there) they only punished EV players, and not the rest of the teammates who were "spamming".

[WolfTitan]

In response to the OP, there is a reason why players eventually resort to using Mirage over and over. 

It is the failure of DE to reduce the amount of grind in the game. When new players find that they need 2000 ducats for each round of Baro, they look for shortcuts. By nerfing these frames, DE just increased the grind, making it more difficult to reach endgame. Baro's offerings used to be 50-80% cheaper than today's.

If you don't enjoy playing with players who can go far with cheese, simply leave the squad and make one that omits such frames. Your annoyance with cheesy frames should not be the reason why the nerf should be applied globally to all players.

I cheese to make life a whole lot easier, when the entertainment value of grind is minimal. When I want to kill, I don't cheese. So yes, players cheese when there are components of the game (like grind and repetition) that they do not enjoy doing over and over again. DE was wrong to address the frames; they failed to focus on the source - grind.

Edited May 29, 2016 by WolfTitan

[Stratego89]

11 hours ago, AdunSaveMe said:

Players try to trivialize content because DE keeps giving them the need to do so. The loss of one of these ways is bad because of it. Plus, if they had maybe considered the fact that a mapwide spammable blind might be a tad powerful before they added it into the game, we wouldn't have gotten used to it, and people wouldn't be so damn salty.

Do tell me Adun... how old is mirage now? How long has she been in the game? How much have things changed since then that might make you think "hmm... maybe at the time her map wide blind was fine."?

DE doesn't give people a need to cheese. Scaling exists to murder us. That's the whole point. To cheese that is the same as just finding whatever exploits you can to get around that. DE doesn't punish for it because it's their fault said cheesable abilities exist.

Does scaling need improvement? Without a single doubt or question to be asked, HELL YES. But so does damage as a whole. So does a LOT of things. They can't do it all at once. Nerfing the stuff that is causing players to QUIT because the game is too easy is the LOGICAL first choice for a company. They said they're working on everything- people have no good reason to complain. Every single person on these forums in the past ~24 hours that has complained about these nerfs is being a spoiled little brat that can't stand everything not being done for them anymore. I wouldn't say that if a SINGLE one of them could provide a LOGICAL reason as to why these changes are bad- but they cannot, because that reason does not exist. True- this is DE's fault in the end. Why? Because they're the ones that let it go on for so long instead of doing something about it. I'm happy they finally are but I will admit I've been salty for quite some time that they didn't until now. I just don't complain about everything like these guys/girls because I understand they're busy with other stuff and actually think before I speak and freak out (most of the time).

[Wandering_Cyberdragoness]

1 hour ago, Fifield said:

LOL ^^

The one who finds the easiest game ever difficult... trying to tell the one who finds it so easy he has to gimp himself for Sortie 3 missions... how to mod.

Errr, it's still a disco ball of death.

There's no fun in killing something that can't fight back, or even move.

When did I say it was difficult? I can annihilate anything, and that's the way I like it, It's great stress relief.

[Fifield]

8 minutes ago, Nomen_Nescio said:

I like how people that tbarely even play something are talking about that. Already played several LoRs to test this today all and I know what I'm talking about.

I like how people who are struggling with easy content think they know more about it.

I'm going to guess the reason you didn't explain why any of the 6 map-wide CC powers I listed somehow won't work is because they do.

[Noteybook]

2 hours ago, Cosmic_Elf said:

DE should stop nerfing things that worked well for years, which are necessary for completing hard missions.

This

The recent nerfs seem to be forcing a soft-cap on hard missions, or missions that are level 60+. I don't understand it, why is there so much focus around casual players? Why not look at the game from top-to-bottom? Why is there suddenly this focus on "endgame cheese", when stuff like Draco is allowed to exist? And may I add, Draco farming was NOT touched in any way whatsoever with the recent nerfs.

[Fifield]

47 minutes ago, WolfTitan said:

If you don't enjoy playing with players who can go far with cheese, simply leave the squad and make one that omits such frames.

3rd time someone's made this outrageously bad argument.  Perhaps instead of balancing DOTA, Blizzard should tell everyone to simply leave any game that has OP heroes in it?

(inb4 but DOTA is PvP...)

And you clearly didn't even read the original post.

47 minutes ago, WolfTitan said:

Your annoyance with cheesy frames should not be the reason why the nerf should be applied globally to all players.

True.  The reason that Mirage was nerfed is because her blind eliminated all enemy threat in the mission.  Try countering that argument instead of attacking me for not doing something... that I specifically demonstrated in the original post that I do.

Edited May 29, 2016 by Fifield

[--F--NerevarCM]

5 minutes ago, Noteybook said:

This

The recent nerfs seem to be forcing a soft-cap on hard missions, or missions that are level 60+. I don't understand it, why is there so much focus around casual players? Why not look at the game from top-to-bottom? Why is there suddenly this focus on "endgame cheese", when stuff like Draco is allowed to exist? And may I add, Draco farming was NOT touched in any way whatsoever with the recent nerfs.

Draco is doomed in U19. With rotating mission type. It will not be interception everytime anymore.

[Noteybook]

1 minute ago, -SDM-NerevarCM said:

Draco is doomed in U19. With rotating mission type. It will not be interception everytime anymore.

 

I'll be honest, I don't like Draco, I've done it, and I understand why people do it. I'd rather do a T4 survival and get loot chances. But I'm still perturbed at how the nerfs particularly avoided anything that would affect Draco farming.

[JazzProX]

Warframe is a great game. That's why we're here. The Community as a whole is one of the best communities there is, since the people who make the community, make the game. Favorite frame buffed? Praise DE and Screw DE. Half are grateful, other half are angry because "game becomes too easy" and "it doesn't make much of a challenge to do missions now". Favorite frame nerfed? Praise DE and Screw DE. Half are grateful because "game becomes more challenging" and ha;f are angry because they feel they cannot kill anything anymore up to this point. DE is working hard trying to please us, trying to make everyone happy. We complain, they listen. Some people have the weirdest requests and even so they spark an idea to "fix" things, since they want us to be happy. All the little "my game crashes at this point" posts get addressed to in every hotfix and linked to the person who discovered such bug, giving them the credit they deserve.

They talked about Draco a lot in the past Devstream, and even Tonkor. They even made a joke about nerfing Tonkor in the latest Devstream, but basically they said that there's always a place everywhere that can be considered a gold mine. This place is Draco. Instead of nerfing Draco, there's a plan for making a weapon start at Rank 15 after forma'ing it if your Mastery Rank is 15. Then that would mostly eliminate the need to go to Draco for some, as they call it, "backpack leveling". Equip unranked weapon, go to Draco, massacre things. If they nerfed Draco, they'd be making it like any other map and that would make the game monotone. Every map's spaqn rate is the same. Every map's average affinity payout is the same. Then there will be real complaining right there and DE will be like: "Isn't this what you wanted?"

 

Praise DE and screw DE. Half would be grateful for nerfing Draco, because they dislike cheese and want to make everything harder and more of a challenge for themselves. Half are angry, because their 60x Exterminate Affinity in One pack has been taken away from them. If everything is cheese, why not just remove powers all-together? Make frames auto-hide behind a blunt, shooting from cover. Oh wait...that exists... It's called Tom Clancy's: The Division. Yet everyone seems to be 100% certain and 100% steadfast to NOT nerf Loki. That is the exact reason they did not dare to touch Loki and hence it's commonly known as Loki Master Race.

 

Many complain for a Limbo Rework, surprise a Limbo rework is coming right after this. All of this "change" is happening because of mixed replies and comments from us, the community, to them, DE. Basically everyone can be a bad guy and ruin it for those who have no problem with it by voicing their opinion on the forums. Emphasis on "opinion". There are who respect those opinions and support them and there are those against it and try to counter that opinions, since the chance of such opinion being implemented these days are higher than the chance of getting a Legendary Core in Sorties. If anything, be happy and enjoy the game. If you don't enjoy it and complain about it, sure they may try to please you but by doing that you may be taking someone else's fun. But let's change the topic...

So I hear Jordas Verdict has been blooming lately with the latest Trinity Blessing rework...

 

[izzatuw]

I'm personally saying no to all these nerfs till the game understands that

Difficulty =/= Cheap enemy one shot

 

I recently finished playing the new DOOM and I thoroughly enjoyed it, no enemies felt cheap, no enemies easily kill you outta nowhere and each death felt like it was on you and the game felt  difficult especially in later levels where you fight 7-15 demons in one room. They made the game feel difficult but at the same time you didn't feel too underpowered or overpowered.

 

In Doom you could get overpowered powerups like quad damage but you didn't really need them if you had enough skill.

 

In Warframe you need to heavily rely on abilities to get anything done in high level missions.

Another point is that 

low drop rate =/= fun and challenging.

Some things are more tolerable than the other and I for one don't like to repeat tons of 40 minutes of T3 Survival for a chance to get something with a drop rate of 0.5%

Oh or how about the horrendous sorties. Spend half an hour at least or an entire hour to do 3 missions just to get 25 cores. quality reward right there ?

This is what burns players out and makes them cheese the game.

I personally don't like the direction DE's heading because the enemies are getting stronger and stronger while the players are getting weaker and weaker. 

 

[--F--NerevarCM]

17 minutes ago, izzatuw said:

I'm personally saying no to all these nerfs till the game understands that

Difficulty =/= Cheap enemy one shot

 

I recently finished playing the new DOOM and I thoroughly enjoyed it, no enemies felt cheap, no enemies easily kill you outta nowhere and each death felt like it was on you and the game felt  difficult especially in later levels where you fight 7-15 demons in one room. They made the game feel difficult but at the same time you didn't feel too underpowered or overpowered.

 

In Doom you could get overpowered powerups like quad damage but you didn't really need them if you had enough skill.

 

In Warframe you need to heavily rely on abilities to get anything done in high level missions.

Another point is that 

low drop rate =/= fun and challenging.

Some things are more tolerable than the other and I for one don't like to repeat tons of 40 minutes of T3 Survival for a chance to get something with a drop rate of 0.5%

Oh or how about the horrendous sorties. Spend half an hour at least or an entire hour to do 3 missions just to get 25 cores. quality reward right there ?

This is what burns players out and makes them cheese the game.

I personally don't like the direction DE's heading because the enemies are getting stronger and stronger while the players are getting weaker and weaker. 

 

Sorry, but Doom is a singleplayer game.

12h max of content. less than 30 enemies, 1 faction. Balanced around solo with everyone using the same weapons, only 8 weapons, scripted battles with exact number of enemies spawned in a area, no drop rates or crafting because we find the weapons.

Comparing DOOM balance with Warframe is ridiculous, we have 30x more weapons, 20x more characters and 10x more enemies, entirely diferent mechanics, a entirely diferent game with a entire diferent purpose.

If the enemy can 1 shot us, is because we can lock them down for infinite ammount of time (LoR) and pretty much ignore them while doing our missions without any difficulty. Its a loop and DE took the first step to brake this loop.

Edited May 29, 2016 by -SDM-NerevarCM

[AdunSaveMe]

4 hours ago, Stratego89 said:

Do tell me Adun... how old is mirage now? How long has she been in the game? How much have things changed since then that might make you think "hmm... maybe at the time her map wide blind was fine."?).

Very little. No significant changes happened between then and now to suddenly make Prism more amazing.

So they should have seen it coming. Unless they were blinded. har har

Edited May 29, 2016 by AdunSaveMe

[izzatuw]

1 minute ago, -SDM-NerevarCM said:

Sorry, but Doom is a singleplayer game.

12h max of content. less than 30 enemies, 1 faction. Balanced around solo with everyone using the same weapons, only 8 weapons, scripted battles with exact number of enemies spawned in a area, no drop rates or crafting because we find the weapons.

Comparing DOOM balance with Warframe is ridiculous, we have 30x more weapons, 20x more characters and 10x more enemies, entirely diferent mechanics, a entirely diferent game with a entire diferent purpose

but yet you can only equip 3 weapons. 

those X30 weapons also mean 5-6 different weapons in the same weapon category. It wasn't a direct comparison now was it? It was stating how Doom could get a decent amount of enemy difficulty and player skill. 

 

You could get the best player in the world to play a level 100 grineer mission but unless he uses abilities at a frequent amount he'll more than likely gekilleded by a Grineer sooner or later

[Marvelous_A]

Challenging content just doesn't work with grinding. You have to do the same mission again and again and again, cheesey frames allow you to grind more efficiently. I would say removing these just makes the grinding even more time consuming and frustrating.

[Stratego89]

10 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:

Very little. No significant changes happened between then and now to suddenly make Prism more amazing.

So they should have seen it coming. Unless they were blinded.

Raids with very powerful enemies and puzzles that made you vulnerable didn't exist.

Most of the tilesets/tiles back then were enclosed and had lots of individual rooms that you had to go through meaning her Prism was less effective due to map design.

Zenurik did not exist to make energy a joke.

Lots has changed man. Lots.

[GokuSpade]

All i know is that you nerf callers ruin everything

[Shifted]

12 hours ago, Fifield said:

A lot of people think enemy scaling is a big problem.  They're wrong.

You want to know why high damage/EHP enemies are in the game?  Players demanded it because the game was too goddamn easy.  It still is.
Level 100 enemies aren't hard if you can stop them ever firing at you.  They're not even bullet sponges at that level.

I want you to record yourself completing a sortie or a rai- I mean "Trial" - without any of those "map disabling abilities" you speak of.

You can't, and I'll tell you why in a minute.

 

Yes, it's true, game USED to be too easy, because we had those insane abilities in the first place.

Something that perhaps was planned (devs wanted players to feel powerful) but something that perhaps was pushed too much (devs admitting to giving players TOO MUCH power through mods).

So it was that way.

Then DE added nullifiers, trials, sorties, and all that other constraining stuff to try to CREATE challenging content.

Problem is, it was built on a broken foundation.

Now with content that's designed for this flawed system they start fixing symptoms, but the core issue still remains.

You'll end up with players being weaker than what the content was designed for, and that's a problem.

I'm okay with nerfing, but it's the core issue that has to be fixed, not singular results of it.

There's too much inconsistency in the game. Some things scale by percentage, some things have static values, and in both cases some are ridiculously imbalanced, whether it's too weak or too powerful.

U19 will redesign the missions and I think that's a perfect foundation to start again. 

Take all the frames, the mods, the weapons and the enemies and rebalance them all, and be consistent.

Too much work?

The PvP team seems to be managing balance pretty well. I'd love to see those guys take a look at PvE.

Edited May 29, 2016 by Shifted

[--F--NerevarCM]

34 minutes ago, izzatuw said:

but yet you can only equip 3 weapons. 

those X30 weapons also mean 5-6 different weapons in the same weapon category. It wasn't a direct comparison now was it? It was stating how Doom could get a decent amount of enemy difficulty and player skill. 

The problem is that encounters in DOOM are scripted, tested and balanced to be made in various difficulties versus one player with the same 8x2=16 combination of weapons. While Warframe needs to be balanced around 4 players, with infinite amounts of combinations of warframes. weapons, mods, focus and arcanes. Tell me which one is more dificult to balance?

Enemies in DOOM are bulletsponges, Imps are killed with 1 shot, Mancubus and Barons need 5 or more missiles in the face to kill. Pinks are high resistant against shots but weaker in the back, its the same about bursas, but here, people complained that Bursas are too hard, now I kill Bursas with 1 Atlas punch. 

Here, everytime DE adds a tactical enemy, people complain that is hindering their playstyle, if DE adds a bulletsponge enemy, people complain that is unfair and too hard.

Mirage pre nerf was like playing Doom in a encounter with 300 barons of hell with 200 berserker power ups in the area

And balance in DOOM is nowhere perfect. Shotgun's explosive shot is 10 times better than Charged Shot and even better than LMG Mini Missiles. DE needs to balance this game to be fair to every combination of warframe/weapons that exists in the game. Perfect balance never exists, but always increasing numbers to balance the game will end in Pluto being enemies lvl 2000 and we hitting 2 billion damage. Nerfs are needed and this nerf was needed.

Edited May 29, 2016 by -SDM-NerevarCM

[Fifield]

5 minutes ago, Shifted said:

I want you to record yourself completing a sortie or a rai- I mean "Trial" - without any of those "map disabling abilities" you speak of.

You can't, and I'll tell you why in a minute.

How bad do you have to be at this game to not be able to beat all but the hardest Sortie without mapwide disables?

Are you so sure you'll put real money on it?

[izzatuw]

12 minutes ago, -SDM-NerevarCM said:

The problem is that encounters in DOOM are scripted, tested and balanced to be made in various difficulties versus one player with the same 8x2=16 combination of weapons. While Warframe needs to be balanced around 4 players, with infinite amounts of combinations of warframes. weapons, mods, focus and arcanes. Tell me which one is more dificult to balance?

Enemies in DOOM are bulletsponges, Imps are killed with 1 shot, Mancubus and Barons need 5 or more missiles in the face to kill. Pinks are high resistant against shots but weaker in the back, its the same about bursas, but here, people complained that Bursas are too hard, now I kill Bursas with 1 Atlas punch. 

Here, everytime DE adds a tactical enemy, people complain that is hindering their playstyle, if DE adds a bulletsponge enemy, people complain that is unfair and too hard.

Mirage pre nerf was like playing Doom in a encounter with 300 barons of hell with 200 berserker power ups in the area

And balance in DOOM is nowhere perfect. Shotgun's explosive shot is 10 times better than Charged Shot and even better than LMG Mini Missiles. DE needs to balance this game to be fair to every combination of warframe/weapons that exists in the game. Perfect balance never exists, but always increasing numbers to balance the game will end in Pluto being enemies lvl 2000 and we hitting 2 billion damage. Nerfs are needed and this nerf was needed.

Have I ever claimed the balance in Doom was perfect? Nope but it's far better than Warframe's.

 

The true problem lies in the fact that DE does not have a capped end game level and people that end up asking for nerfs are people that witness people cheese the game at low levels of 30 and below which is honestly still trivial with the most basic of weapons like Dera Vandal.

 

Sure frames like Ember and WO are OP against level 30 and below enemies but there are tons better. Blessing is quite broken against level 40 and below but once you get to level 80+ good luck surviving on guns alone.

When you play high level difficulties in Doom and you die a lot you go like " okay I need to be a bit more tactical" and you actually have to move around up and down left and right.

 

What about Warframe's tactical gameplay in high levels? Spam 3 with Nyx, spam 4 with Loki, spam all the buttons!!!

Edited May 29, 2016 by izzatuw

[AdunSaveMe]

39 minutes ago, Stratego89 said:

Raids with very powerful enemies and puzzles that made you vulnerable didn't exist.

Most of the tilesets/tiles back then were enclosed and had lots of individual rooms that you had to go through meaning her Prism was less effective due to map design.

Zenurik did not exist to make energy a joke.

Lots has changed man. Lots.

That doesn't change anything. Endless missions existed. High level tactical alerts existed. The entire game existed.

You don't have to have raids in the game to be able to figure out that blinding an entire map, regardless of level, might be a bit much.

[Fifield]

4 minutes ago, izzatuw said:

people that end up asking for nerfs are people that witness people cheese the game at low levels of 30

I'm not sure what's harder to understand, struggling with endgame content or thinking it's impossible for anyone to be better at the game than you.

[izzatuw]

1 minute ago, Fifield said:

I'm not sure what's harder to understand, struggling with endgame content or thinking it's impossible for anyone to be better at the game than you.

show me one thread where the OP asked for an Ember nerf and it involves level 50+ enemies.

[Fifield]

3 minutes ago, izzatuw said:

show me one thread where the OP asked for an Ember nerf and it involves level 50+ enemies.

I am the OP.  And why are you talking about Ember all of a sudden...

Edited May 29, 2016 by Fifield