Thoughts on the nerf/if it works too good nuke it mentality.

[TheBrsrkr]

13 minutes ago, ryu-hayabusa1 said:

fun is whatever brings joy to anyone's heart. 

In the broadest sense, yes. We're not talking about the broadest sense. We're talking about fun in Warframe, specifically. 

 

14 minutes ago, ryu-hayabusa1 said:

.Using a weapon/ frame you like, participating in  missions and continue to do so, is participation, ability and continuity.

These are all things directly affected by game balance, which is why they're not a part of it. If people cannot do all three of those, the game is not balanced, and the game will be changed to suit. 

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

1 hour ago, ryu-hayabusa1 said:

no, some people like them, some don't. again its a personal preference. i know, that there is a LOT of other weapons/frames , that are more engaging and fun, but in the end , those who cheese high lvl content, either just want to be done with it or does not have the necessary skill to survive. 

Exactly. This is a game. Rewards and such should follow fun gameplay. If the game isn't fun, then at some point the people trying to get their rewards quickly will realize they did it all for nothing; they got all these rewards and didn't even get to enjoy the game doing it.

As for having the necessary skill, the truth is most of us don't. Why? Because the high level content has been balanced around the same broken mechanics DE is working now on fixing. Likewise, they have stated they're working on fixing our enemies over the coming weeks. So that's a reason why this should've happened, not the opposite.

[DeadlyPeanutt]

3 hours ago, KJRenz said:

So basically what you want is Warframe to remain unbalanced and the only way to perform well is to stick with one frame only that can trivialize everything without effort. Yea no.

 

nice over generalization and simplification ! 

OP points out some valid problems with WF, including the fact that it is a mob grind shooter and not a skill shooter as the nerf army would have us believe.  OP also points out the fact that you don't have to use any frame that you feel is overpowered.

I'd like to point out that no game is balanced, and a mob bot shooter is by nature unbalanced... the successful player finds a way to kill entire mobs... which is what the nerf army objects to. 

but then, since over generalization and simplification is your mode of thought, you aren't interested in such details, are you?

[(PSN)ArnnFrost]

I know it is a PvE game so having OP stuff around helps you in your missions but from my experience in MMO games (don't ask me, just felt its similar to this case) the balancing is all about ranking- like Meta-ing... dunno how to say it xD you are KINDA forced to use specific weapons and frames for high level missions right now making you drop your weapon/frame of choice for that specific one and so on. I remember the time when I bought Daikyu as my first main weapon, it performed well until I reached high level missions where Dread and Paris Prime outshines it and then found that the community is making fun of whoever uses that weapon o.0 I loved its high base damage but more than that, the classic Longbow design but now I don't have it anymore.  Other than this reason is Challenge therefore "interest" I guess

Edited May 30, 2016 by (PS4)ArnnFrost
That goes for Frames too, I liked Ash for being a Ninja but now instead of just having fun with everybody. Everyone either META or assume others also cheese stuff for using that or that frame (I don't even spam BladeStorm..) abusers spread hatred nowadays

[WARLOCKE]

2 hours ago, (XB1)ToothlessApollo said:

It used to be difficult to decide which frame to use because they we're all so good at something, but they we're at least so different that you could assign them different roles for things, i.e. Limbo is amazing for totally cheesing spy and rescue missions, Excal and Valkyr are good for running around and aimlessly murdering EVERYTHING, Trinity's good at keeping everyone replenished and keeping noobs from dying with her motherly godly powers. The thing about all these frames is that they're easy to use. I think by conjunctioning everything and having to daisy chain everyone's powers together they're complicating frames and I think eventually there won't be any easy to grab frames for newer players to hold on to. Instead of making the good powers suck and forcing us to conjunction the other powers with it, they should just focus on changing the powers that do suck into something better and leave what ain't broken alone. The reason we loved Excal after Exaulted Blade rework is because we lost that completely and utterly useless superjump move and replaced it with something totally epic, but none of the other actually useful powers were made to be crap.

New players should not be handed a crutch. They need to learn and you cant learn a game when its so easy you may as well be playing a single player game with a cheat code.

[WARLOCKE]

38 minutes ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

nice over generalization and simplification ! 

OP points out some valid problems with WF, including the fact that it is a mob grind shooter and not a skill shooter as the nerf army would have us believe.  OP also points out the fact that you don't have to use any frame that you feel is overpowered.

I'd like to point out that no game is balanced, and a mob bot shooter is by nature unbalanced... the successful player finds a way to kill entire mobs... which is what the nerf army objects to. 

but then, since over generalization and simplification is your mode of thought, you aren't interested in such details, are you?

You have no clue what you are talking about. You are literally making this up as you go are you not?

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

The latest round of nerfs is sorta the yearly drama. The issue that gives me concern is the lockdown of environments to stop players from using those minor powers that would make certain frames viable for other missions and nodes. Most players could careless about WuKong but if his Cloudwalker could transverse Laser Grids in Spy vaults he'd suddenly be another option to Limbo, Ivara, and Loki, that is if Loki's Switch Telport hadn't been nerfed for the very same spy obstacles.

[EmptyDevil]

One of my gripes with the Crutch Brigade™ is that they think people want nerfs because they are envious of them. It's certainly not that and they should pull their heads out of their rectums. It doesn't take much effort or skill to make a cheesy build - anyone can do it. Most of the players that want balance nerfs are well informed with Warframe, have all the means to make the cheese builds, tested/tried/used them, and have been here for a long time.  So no, they are not asking for nerfs to spite you out of envy. People need to stop stroking their ego with that statement, it shows their hidden inferiority complex.

[gluih]

If all you care about is the grind, then look at it this way:

If warframes are not OP it is harder for us to rush through the missions=> they can increase droprates without worrying that people don't have anything to do way too quickly.

I don't know what people enjoy about being afk while a mirage is blinding every enemy on the map.

[(XBOX)ToothlessApollo]

5 hours ago, WARLOCKE said:

New players should not be handed a crutch. They need to learn and you cant learn a game when its so easy you may as well be playing a single player game with a cheat code.

5 hours ago, WARLOCKE said:

New players should not be handed a crutch. They need to learn and you cant learn a game when its so easy you may as well be playing a single player game with a cheat code.

its not talking about a crutch, but a learning curve. Its bad when you design a game without any sort of proper introduction, I feel like rhino is the best starter frame for people because he allows the little mastery rank one guys to get used to how crap works without dying every 5 seconds, but I feel even he's prone to becoming overly complicated if de tries to have their way with him.

[(XBOX)R0T IN]

This game will die soon.....  ive done nothing but hype this game over the years and get people to play... not anymore.. these forums are filled with people ruining this game. #Tired of nerfs

[WARLOCKE]

19 minutes ago, (XB1)R0T IN said:

This game will die soon.....  ive done nothing but hype this game over the years and get people to play... not anymore.. these forums are filled with people ruining this game. #Tired of nerfs

lol. You dont even have the nerfs on consoles yet but you are crying? You havent tried the changes yourself but yet you are crying. You say the game is dying, but its just you crying..You say people who want balance are ruining the game? Fair enough. But stop posting about things you have no first hand experience with. Please.

[WARLOCKE]

39 minutes ago, (XB1)ToothlessApollo said:

its not talking about a crutch, but a learning curve. Its bad when you design a game without any sort of proper introduction, I feel like rhino is the best starter frame for people because he allows the little mastery rank one guys to get used to how crap works without dying every 5 seconds, but I feel even he's prone to becoming overly complicated if de tries to have their way with him.

MR 1 players are the ones who shouldnt use Rhino. It introduces mechanics that are not standard across other frames. It encourages IS crutching. If anything rhino and other tank frames should be higher MR. No frame is complicated, Its just four abilities. If you  cant keep track of that you have bigger problems than nerfs in a FTP game.

[(PSN)SALVATIONxCRUSH]

AH THE DE DEFENSE FORCE IS HARD AT WORK THIS WEEKEND. LOL

[fatpig84]

Better use your Ash moar.

He will be fixed before U19 or during U19 launch.

[Cyonan]

The real problem here isn't nerfs. It's enemy scaling.

Enemies are set up in such a way that we're not supposed to be able to survive forever against them. Of course, players are still going to try to push out as much survivability as they possibly can in order to survive well beyond the point that the developers ever expected us to. So what does this lead us to doing?

Exploiting ways to avoid taking damage, since any damage becomes fatal for even the toughest of Warframes. This means CC spam, Damage Immunity effects, or Ivara's stealth to just avoid being attacked. These effects are so prevalent in the game that even if you nerf one, we'll just replace it with another and keep on going.

There are some things that fall into those categories that are legitimate balance concerns but overall nerfing everything that's a CC, DR, or Stealth ability isn't really a long term solution. If they want to keep endless around then I would say that they should probably pick a point at which they figure we should be able to survive up to and start giving the enemy resistance to our means of negating them completely. No matter what you do people are going to try to cheese the game, so the only thing you really can do is to have the enemy simply shut us down at some point.

The other thing is that people complaining about nerfs and talking about how they should never nerf because "it's a PvE game!" aren't helping. Balance is important in EVERY game, and nerfing is a reality of balance. Only ever buffing things isn't a viable long term solution either.

On the other hand, the people who defend every nerf and have the elitist attitude of "You're just scrubs mad that you lost your crutch!" are just as bad as the anti-nerfers. The other reality of balance is that nobody gets it right 100% of the time, and sometimes a nerf isn't a good nerf. Other times the nerf may not have been needed at all.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Cyonan

[(XBOX)ToothlessApollo]

• It makes me ever so curious. Where does the truth lie between those who call nerf on these frames, and the ever-so-faithful but ultimately naive disciples of DE that believe their beloved developers could do no wrong? I refuse to believe that either of these biased points of view are 100% true.

[brucifer1]

14 hours ago, Cyonan said:

The real problem here isn't nerfs. It's enemy scaling.

Enemies are set up in such a way that we're not supposed to be able to survive forever against them. Of course, players are still going to try to push out as much survivability as they possibly can in order to survive well beyond the point that the developers ever expected us to. So what does this lead us to doing?

Exploiting ways to avoid taking damage, since any damage becomes fatal for even the toughest of Warframes. This means CC spam, Damage Immunity effects, or Ivara's stealth to just avoid being attacked. These effects are so prevalent in the game that even if you nerf one, we'll just replace it with another and keep on going.

There are some things that fall into those categories that are legitimate balance concerns but overall nerfing everything that's a CC, DR, or Stealth ability isn't really a long term solution. If they want to keep endless around then I would say that they should probably pick a point at which they figure we should be able to survive up to and start giving the enemy resistance to our means of negating them completely. No matter what you do people are going to try to cheese the game, so the only thing you really can do is to have the enemy simply shut us down at some point.

The other thing is that people complaining about nerfs and talking about how they should never nerf because "it's a PvE game!" aren't helping. Balance is important in EVERY game, and nerfing is a reality of balance. Only ever buffing things isn't a viable long term solution either.

On the other hand, the people who defend every nerf and have the elitist attitude of "You're just scrubs mad that you lost your crutch!" are just as bad as the anti-nerfers. The other reality of balance is that nobody gets it right 100% of the time, and sometimes a nerf isn't a good nerf. Other times the nerf may not have been needed at all.

Exactly. As long as you have endless missions, and enemy scaling that requires an exploit to deal with it you will have one meta build after another and be playing wack a mole with the nerf hammer.

[(XBOX)ToothlessApollo]

I think DE did a good job making Sapping Ospreys not pretty much instant kill you. Now if they can only reduce Scorches and Napalms the Grineer will be perfect. Also, they need to rework Vay Hek for sorties. Its not because he's unkillable, but unless you get him stuck in a wall or something, you have pretty much no chance of beating him. Also, his boss fight is riddled with bugs, one making him invulnerable and another causing an "out of body experience" when you get revived while being energy zapped. This happened to me twice and it broke the match. I recorded the one time in particular.

[ranks21]

players has been asking for adjustments to certain enemies for almost a year and nothing has been done. given the time all this nerf   for mirage (record setting nerf) err adjustment the cries over tonkor, Draco, and others are getting knee jerk reactions, sapping osperys nullifiers energy leachers and many other out of wack enemies with damage not fitting for their levels remains the same<< and youre wondering why the "salt"

patience is a virtue yes I agree and players have ran out of it. when things are ok the players will praise it and embrace it making the Dev's themselves feels a sense of accomplishment  for the job they've done. but just as they do a flip on the players they can expect the same treatment it's only the world we live in and we all have to "adapt" quite fittingly.

 

[ashrah]

one meta will be replaced with another as long as de increse grind....walls ppl will seek for exploits.... and no system without hole...!  some guy escaped 9 times from most secured prison on planet..... so tom and jerry

[(PSN)robotwars7]

INB4 lock.

guys, arguing about it one way or the other without making valid points and calling each other idiots gets nobody anywhere. let's all just simmer down and wait and see the Enemy reworks. if those are badly executed, then I won't stop you from grabbing your pitchforks (I may end up grabbing one myself)

Edited May 31, 2016 by (PS4)robotwars7
spelling.

[DatDarkOne]

On ‎5‎/‎30‎/‎2016 at 10:45 AM, (PS4)WiiConquered said:

Now, if you go to Developer Workshop and look, there's talk about how to handle enemies; the goal is clearly to shrink the power curve so that players and enemies can exist in a state where skill still matters, not only gear, where players can still have fun and handle new, high level content without constantly meta-chasing, and where you can still be challenged.

^^This is how I view the changes.  I'm a patient sort.  I also understand that there are some who don't have this view.  Sadly they also seem to be the most vocal. 

[(PSN)beberonnie123]

I'm reply to this comment the only reason that people want stuff nerfed is because they themselves can't play aint this what happen with saryn serious pc are really destroying the game this and that but really everyone from pc ask for saryn nerf then got it and completely complain I mean are you serious how bout DE keep consoles out of pc &#036;&amp;*&amp;*#(%&amp; complaints it don't make sense for this keep happening are you pc players its ridiculous the game may never get next big update why because pc players complain every time keep that dysfunctional style of play to the PC players DE I completely protest ash rework he is a literal assassin period I run defense draco  survival even rescue with who ASH blade storm why get rid of AI Mobs 

[jfhsanseiIII]

I think you need to be slightly more objective here.  You're asking people to be kind and respectful then finish your statement by insulting people who disagree with you.  Bad form I think.  That said.  You see a need as hurting your ability to do ___. Okay.  I can see changing something you like it use often as irksome.  However, looking at it from the developers' and quite a large number of the players' point of view though.

Now If abilities allow you to ignore aspects of the game that would otherwise prove challenging and then give you the ability to destroy the opposition in the process, then that ability is a net negative.  Hysteria us a perfect example of that a player is able to click 4 and proceed to pretty much ignore everything coming their way.  It's change now gives the player the ability to still wreck everything in its path but now the player is forced to pay attention to their frame, the enemies, and the surrounding environment if they wish to make staying alive a priority.  It's a good change.

In the case of blessing it effectively made everyone invincible. The same was true with the old version of it.  It's new version I feel tampers with it too much, and could cause a few problems. It should be given something like a maximum of seventy percent healing and damage reduction with penalties in the percentage of damage reduction and healing other players receive after a certain distance.