So a MR4 in starter gear joined Sortie 1 today...

[-dicht.Amducias-]

10 hours ago, Crowsworth said:

Every time a thread pops up about low MR players, invariably, this kind of tosh comes out over and over again. Its so tired and cliché thats its akin to listening to Slipknot when you are in your 30s.

"Hey giuse, I have seen low level players who are AWESOEM and some really BBAAAADDD high MR players, so just let anything go, anything at all, let any rank in, let anything happen"

So utterly boring and stale, lacking any kind of thought or reason. No logic, nothing, just spewed jizz with zero function.

Yes the mr argument is invalid because in general higher mr players are actually way more capable of helping than lower mrs but no one has a right to complain if he goes public.. if he only finds players that hinder him then he shall just go solo? Or get ppl from recru chat (there he could also complain if he assigned specific roles)? Or just play better? I play sorties almost daily public and sometimes with clan people and i never get hindered even not by mr4's who want to kill spy missions with their rhino.. if you are not capable of pulling the weight of at least 4 people then you are not supposed to go public if you will just complain after it..

Edited June 6, 2016 by -dicht.Amducias-

[Magneu]

7 hours ago, jfhsanseiIII said:

If you don't take any effort to form a group and you're well aware that any player, rightfully so, can enter a sortie then it's on you not them.  The gear check for most content is prohibitive enough as it is.  

This is what I have an issue with, the fact that pretty much any player can get into a sortie in the first place when, the vast majority of the time, that player is woefully unprepared in both gameplay mechanics and even more so in gear.Please elaborate how a MR4 is going to have weapons/mods capable of killing level 60+ enemies? 60+ isn't even very high for most higher-ranked players, yet these new players can barely scratch them.

Yes, I am capable of carrying an entire team through sorties.

No, I don't want to do it all the time.

No, I don't think a newbie should have direct access to endgame missions.

No, I don't like constantly rezzing a newbie in said mission, as it teaches him nothing, and after the third revive gets a bit frustrating.

No, soloing or creating private lobbies is not the answer, as it simply dodges the question, which, again, is;

 

Why are players that are underprepared, undergeared, and inexperienced allowed access to some of the toughest (referring to starting levels and modifiers) missions in Warframe?

Answering "Just play solo, or make a private lobby" is akin to looking the other way from a car crash and saying it doesn't exist because you can't see it. The problem is still there, not getting solved; pretending it's not there doesn't fix it.

[Magneu]

13 hours ago, Crowsworth said:

Its so tired and cliché thats its akin to listening to Slipknot when you are in your 30s.

Wait, so I have to stop listening in eight years?

I just picked up the self-titled though...^{and I kind of like it...}

[(PSN)SALVATIONxCRUSH]

So I have been on the side of everybody being able to do anything mission wise in warframe. But yesterday was the prime example of why people get fed up. Yesterday.

sortie-2 mobile defense myself mr12 and a mr16, I'm frost and he is Slova. Our 2 teammates mr4 and mr5 both Excalibur. So in first data they both go down over and over running outside the globe. I help them once and tell them stay in globe or their on there own. Well they run out of revives by the end of the 2nd data. Me and nova finish mission. I leave asap.

sortie-3 my luck interception corpus myself mr12 mag another mag mr19. Well our teammates are both Mr5 frost and volt. Other mag says he has got A/B and I tell him I'll cover C/D . We leave mess for newer players to stay up on D and it'll go quick.

so volt running around like its TDM uses up all revives by end of 1st round and frost used all 4 revives to make it.

end kill count 546,612,26,2 so they got carried to 50 gold cores. 

So if you wanna play a mission that your not equipped for 2 things for me going forward.

1. No revives for anybody under Mr10 or weapons not up to enemy lol.

2.before match starts I check Mr and weapons. If not up to mission lvl and You wanna hide in corner somewhere while the rest do the work. You will me zip line or teleport.

3. But if you say it's your first time and you wanna try it. I got no problem helping as long as you play with the squad and take direction. Hell if you can hold up I'll run all 3 with ya.

[Magneu]

20 hours ago, jfhsanseiIII said:

MR doesn't equal skill.  I've seen MR 3s wreck face and MR 20s play stupidly.

Just had to requote this. I'd like to see a MR3 that can kill a single level 80 heavy.

Hell, let's knock it down to level 60. Challenge still stands.

I'm a lot more willing to take my chances with an idiot MR20 than a skilled MR3, as each one of that MR20's bullets are worth hundreds, if not thousands of times as much as the MR3's bullets, to say nothing of how effective a modded power can be to a non-modded (and I guarantee that MR3 has almost no rare mods, or the cores to level them).

This whole issue isn't about "skill". It's about players (who probably are rather new to the game and don't know a lot of mechanics) failing basic gear-checks in Sortie 1. 

You could be the top of MLG, but your Boltor isn't going to do anything to that pissed off Bombard (75).

Edited June 6, 2016 by Magneu

[(PSN)obsidiancurse]

Just did today's sortie with two mr4s and a mr9 and was thinking of this topic lol

they were good guys and we had fun.

[purple_cabbage]

So it seems to me that Sorties simply should not be available through the current public matching system. I feel though, there can be a couple of ways at least to deal with the problem.

One option would be to institute a system where players can place lower limit on the MR (or conclave rating) that they can be matched with. This will certainly help with the OPs initial complaint. This is by no means some novel idea, in fact its been suggested repeatedly. It does however, run the risk of alienating players and fostering elitist behaviours.

Another route could be to create a sortie relay where the team needs to be assembled prior to entering the sortie. This will help with the whole matching issue as well as give a team some degree of time to "plan" (if required.)

Personally, I like the option of a Sortie Lite (some thing like Enemy Rank 20-40/30-50/40-60) for lower ranked players to come to grips with the game whilst not being entirely left out of the rewards structure. Maybe DE can workout a lower reward tier (eg. Smaller Core packs, Small Focus Lenses, Rare Mods, Vauban Parts... :O ) that approaches but doesn't exactly match the current sortie reward pool. A very neat way of implementing such a system would be for syndicate missions to be used as this "sortie lite" concept. I'm fairly certain that many lower MR players find themselves in sorties for the potential reward and not necessarily the challenge. The risk here would be that more powerful players enter the fray and cheese but ultimately, if a genuine challenge is being sought then such players will go to the "real sortie." As a general deterrent to cheese though, I would leave event weps out of the "lite tier reward pool."  

 

General Disclaimer: I'm MR 9 and I main Volt, Loki, Zephyr. Life tends to get in the way of ranking gear :) 

 

Edited June 6, 2016 by purple_cabbage

[jfhsanseiIII]

3 hours ago, Magneu said:

This is what I have an issue with, the fact that pretty much any player can get into a sortie in the first place when, the vast majority of the time, that player is woefully unprepared in both gameplay mechanics and even more so in gear.Please elaborate how a MR4 is going to have weapons/mods capable of killing level 60+ enemies? 60+ isn't even very high for most higher-ranked players, yet these new players can barely scratch them.

Yes, I am capable of carrying an entire team through sorties.

No, I don't want to do it all the time.

No, I don't think a newbie should have direct access to endgame missions.

No, I don't like constantly rezzing a newbie in said mission, as it teaches him nothing, and after the third revive gets a bit frustrating.

No, soloing or creating private lobbies is not the answer, as it simply dodges the question, which, again, is;

 

Why are players that are underprepared, undergeared, and inexperienced allowed access to some of the toughest (referring to starting levels and modifiers) missions in Warframe?

Answering "Just play solo, or make a private lobby" is akin to looking the other way from a car crash and saying it doesn't exist because you can't see it. The problem is still there, not getting solved; pretending it's not there doesn't fix it.

You're metaphor is kind of self serving and wholly misleading.  if you want a smooth run every time you're going to have to build a team yourself.  Don't get upset at low MR players because you've zero motivation to make it perfect every time.  That's not their fault.  Should they go in with starter gear and few mods? No not really. Is it bad form? Yea.  Sure. Should it lock all low level players out? No.  

MR is not a measure of skill, but I'd be willing to listen if you said lock out people with MK-1 versions of weapons.  At MR 4 though you have some very high tier items available to you that can make you very competitive.  

You're options are building a team that you don't have to 'carry' or dealing with low level, low skill, leeches, incompetents, forgetfuls, trolls, AFKers, or what have you in public matches.  No.  It doesn't dodge it.  Because you need to be responsible for the run you want.  You. If you want a certain outcome handle it yourself. 

Now an alternative solution is locking players out from sorties if they've not cleared all the nodes in the sortie. Sure they could get taxis, but that's, in many cases, three taxis and three missions they need to accomplish.  

[Magneu]

28 minutes ago, jfhsanseiIII said:

You're metaphor is kind of self serving and wholly misleading.  if you want a smooth run every time you're going to have to build a team yourself.  Don't get upset at low MR players because you've zero motivation to make it perfect every time.  That's not their fault.  Should they go in with starter gear and few mods? No not really. Is it bad form? Yea.  Sure. Should it lock all low level players out? No.  

MR is not a measure of skill, but I'd be willing to listen if you said lock out people with MK-1 versions of weapons.  At MR 4 though you have some very high tier items available to you that can make you very competitive.  

You're options are building a team that you don't have to 'carry' or dealing with low level, low skill, leeches, incompetents, forgetfuls, trolls, AFKers, or what have you in public matches.  No.  It doesn't dodge it.  Because you need to be responsible for the run you want.  You. If you want a certain outcome handle it yourself. 

Now an alternative solution is locking players out from sorties if they've not cleared all the nodes in the sortie. Sure they could get taxis, but that's, in many cases, three taxis and three missions they need to accomplish.  

Thanks for insinuating that I'm lazy and only use public because I don't want to make a team just for a sortie. And if someone tried to bring an MK-1 weapon to a sortie, I'd believe they were a troll; however, do you really believe a standard Boltor/Braton could be effective enough against sortie three enemies with enhanced armor? I'd love  to see your modding for it. Doesn't matter what weapons/frames the player has, because short of buying each mod/all the accompanying cores needed with plat, that weapon is going to be as useless as a stick.

Also, since when am I responsible for a public run? Did I get selected to be the leader of the lobby because I'm MR21? No. Everyone has an equal obligation to contribute to mission success in these tiered missions.

The reason I see very low MR players in sorties as a problem is because 

a) It makes our "endgame" missions a joke, as very new players can waltz in and get carried to rewards for practically no work, and

b) Low MR players learn nothing from being repeatedly gunned down, aside from realizing "I need better weapons/frames/mods to hold my own here", which brings me to my third point,

c) These players are failing basic gear-checks required for this level of play, because a MR4 is simply not going to have the frames/weapons/mods to enable them to effectively contribute to the mission's success. Instead, they are a liability that takes up a slot a more useful player could have taken.

There, I said it. Yes, that MR4 or MR5 with extremely underpowered gear is a liability, and not as useful as a well geared player. I don't care how "good" a player is, you need a certain standard of equipment to participate in sorties, or you drag the team down. It's a much better system when the player learns the game through basic gameplay (i.e. starchart/void keys), then steps up to sorties when they have sufficient enough gear to contribute to the team, which, assuming taxis to Draco and the like get reduced, is what simply raising the cap to MR8 would achieve.

Can I complete the mission while playing nanny for these players? Yes. Do I enjoy it? Hell no. Did they learn anything, except that they can let higher MR players carry them through tough missions, thereby learning nothing? Nope.

I'm all for teaching the ropes to newbies, but what has been slated as daily "endgame" missions is NOT the place to teach these people how to play.

Again, I don't care how "skilled" someone is. All that skill means nothing when their weapons are as effective as peashooters, or they don't know how to effectively utilize their abilities (due to jumping straight into some of the most difficult missions in the game), or simply don't have the mods/cores to make their weapons even slightly effective.

In the vast majority of cases, these lower MR players simply don't have the equipment to contribute in a meaningful way in sorties, due to MR4 being WAY too early in game progression to jump into gameplay.

After all that, I do agree with the starchart/node idea, to an extent. RNG could dictate the sorties all take place at/before Jupiter; what kind of player is going to be prepared at that stage in gameplay? Overall starchart completion, be it 75%,100%, or whatever, is a much better gating mechanism, as the player will have gained experience, mods, and access to nodes to farm cores/certain mods/frames, etc. It doesn't even take a huge amount of time to clear the starchart, and if you're struggling to clear a planet like Ceres...how the hell do you expect to pull your weight in a sortie with triple the level?

[MagPrime]

While I agree that you get what you get in a Public match and one should take care to make their own teams, if they don't want to play Sortie Roulette, I also agree that some players just aren't ready for that kind of content.

/shrug

I'd like to see better matchmaking at least, that allows players to give a MR range for public matches but at the most, I'd like to see the MR cap raised to 8 or 10 for public missions but have private lobbies stay at MR4.  

The reason for that is that it provides a middle ground for all players.  Fewer illequipped players in the public matches but the low MR's that are ready, aren't locked out and can still run the missions.  They just have to make a quick team or go solo.   

[Eidolon_Slayer]

Sorties due to their nature, were never intended for insufficiently armed players. It's like giving a Private standard issue rifle, and expecting him/her to eliminate dozens of enemies armed with powered armor. Lower master players in general represent the insufficiently armed group.

Edited June 7, 2016 by RetiredEdgeLord

[Voltage]

make the sortie cap MR 14, and rework all the weapons cap like De said they would back in January or so. Progression needs work, and sorties is just a sliver of the cake