Why does no one care about banshee?

[toolazyforagoodname]

There will be a TL;DR at the end.  note that this is comparing banshee and ember's abilities seeing how similar they are

 

Banshee as far as I'm concerned has some of the worst abilities in the game.  For most of this post I'm going to compare her to ember, as they have very similar powers.  

starting from the weakest of her abilities, her 4. her soundquake is very similar to ember's world on fire.  they are both aoe damage over time abilities where the focal point is the frame itself both abilities provide some level of cc as well.  starting with ember.  50 energy activation cost, 3 energy per second sustain cost, 15m range, 400 damage per second, 35% chance to cc (without the augment) and the frame can move and use other powers while it is active.  okay fantastic.  not a bad power.  now banshee.25 energy activation cost, 12 energy per second sustain cost if it's max rank, 20m range, 200 damage, 100% chance to cc and the frame cannot move or use powers while it is active.  Okay so far ember definitely takes the cake though banshee is better with cc.  assuming they both aren't augmented.  now looking at their augments.  Ember's basically raises her cc chance to 100% chance and it's a knockdown proc.  banshee's increases the damage and range on her 4 as time goes by.  but also increases the energy cost... well eventually banshee will out-damage ember.  The problem there is she's still wasting tons of energy where ember is not.  

now we move on to their 3's.  Ember, 75 energy cost, 15 meter wave, 4 meter ring, 100% chance to cc, 20 second ring duration, 200 damage wave, 225 damage per second ring.  fantastic.  great ability for cc and damage.  next up banshee.  75 energy cost, 20 meter range 100% chance to cc, 25 second silence duration, 0 damage.  okay it has alright cc and the cc lasts the problem being that that true cc this offers is very short in duration and if you have too long of a range it's a bit difficult to take advantage of after casting.  that being said, we still have yet to look at their augments.  ember's adds more cc.  enemies that hit the ring now become panicked.  more cc not bad.  banshee.  enemies in the radius take more finisher damage.... if you're aiming for finisher damage on your melee you use concealed leathality on a dagger.  though it does help characters like ash.  before augments I'd say ember takes the cake again.after augments it's a bit hard to decide.  

 

next their 2 both are damage buffs that are focused around the user.  Ember is up first to set the bar.  50 energy cost, 20 meter casting, 100% chance to cc, 30 second effect, damage multiplier, 2.5x (note that this is only for fire damage).  Also ember casts 50% faster during the ability.  Alright it has some utility to it.  worst case scenario you increase your ability damage only. now onto banshee.  50 energy cost 35 meter range 0% chance to cc 30 second effect, damage multiplier 5.0x (only if you hit the glowing body part. alright so banshee takes the win here.  she has a higher damage multiplier for a longer range albeit you have to be more accurate it's chance to assist teammates is higher.  though ember does have the cc on her side and the increased casting speed. also as it stands banshee has an augment for her ability whereas ember does not.

 

next their first abilities.  Ember first as usual.  25 energy cost, infinite casting range, 5 meter blast range 100% chance to cc, 50% chance to cc around the target, damage, 400 to target,  150 in aoe. simple first power. still a bit strong.  Banshee.  25 energy cost, 25 meter range. 100% chance to cc in aoe. 50 damage.  that's it.  just 50 Banshee has the lowest damaging ability in the game that actually does damage.  barring loki's decoy if it procs slash.  but that's not really supposed to do damage.  this ability is strictly cc oriented and even there it has much better equivilents.  banshee loses in this ability as well.  ember has a decent cc chance and way more damage and isn't restricted to range.

 

 

TL;DR

So basically when compared to the frame I found the most similar banshee only takes 1/4 of the abilities as being better and only marginally.  I really wanted to give it to ember because of her cc in her 2 but she has so much cc everywhere else that it was basically pointless.  banshee has pathetic damage and either average or obscenely expensive energy costs.  why is she not being looked at?  I didn't even bring up passives because that's just unfair to banshee.

 

 so basically if you're going to play banshee you might as well just play ember.  

 

Edited June 6, 2016 by toolazyforagoodname

[tnccs215]

Ember and Banshee have nothing in common. Banshee is specialized on CC, damage increase, and enemy localization-- overall offensive-support.

Ember is specialized on fire damage, fire damage, and a bit of CC. Overall crude offense.

Ember needs some heavy tweaking, since she trivializes mid-high level game play and falls flat on her face on everything beyond that-- unless you know all her tricks-- so using her as a "good" model is simply a bad idea. More than that, Banshee is an incredible support frame, and the only glass canon that can also melee.

I'm sorry, but if you want to argue Banshee needs tweaks, you'll have to find other arguments.

[-DragonOfTheWest-]

I agree with Tnccs here. The two frames have next to nothing in common. Both demand completely different play style's and specialize in different things. Coming from someone who mains Banshee these days I can tell you she is amazing for end game content. She may not deal insane damage with her ability's but she more than makes up for it with CC and debuffs.

Edited June 6, 2016 by williamsos10

[Paradoxbomb]

If they were to buff/update Banshee in any way, all she would really need IMO is:

• Silence should reduce the gun accuracy and reaction times of enemies in the field, so that it offers Banshee a bit more survivability beyond the initial stun. Also make it actually silence sounds inside the AoE to the outside.
• While it does have it's moments, Soundquake is admittedly a very "meh" ultimate. If they were to overhaul it entirely I certainly wouldn't complain.

But even as she is she's still a fairly solid frame when used properly, and one of my personal favorites. And as mentioned above, comparing Ember and Banshee is like comparing apples and oranges (if anything, Banshee is the one who's better off late-game when Ember's damage starts falling off).

[toolazyforagoodname]

@williamsos10 @tnccs215  both frames have an ultimate that does damage and cc's around them, both of them have effectively an aoe cc.  where banshee has silence ember has the knockback albeit that ember does damage with her 3 that's beside the point, both of them have a damage buff.  one is focused on a single damage type the other is based on where you shoot the enemy.  the only place I feel they differ majorly is their 1 and in the event of her 1 she could be more easily compared to mag's 1

[--UMBRA--Klokw3rk]

they may have simular abilities in design but have very different roles

Banshee:

1st is a panic button only  for getting away form bad situations augment it if you want the armour reduction and plan to use it

2nd is a major damage increase to all projectile weapons allowing some weapon to hit near the damage cap in certain situations its only use is for level 100+ mobs under that level its effectiveness is limited

3rd is just a small defensive ability if an enemy gets too close and you want to quickly cc them

ult: its a major cc machine its only use is to augment it and use it as a post mirage nerf map CCer or for xp grinding on draco (much faster then RJing less stress on EV having to constant spam and doesnt need a buffer its great)

all in all either to get around the scaling for a while or to majorly CC ampa with no effort

 

Ember:

1st buff ally weapons with augment or dont use it at all damage aint worth the energy cost

2nd cc and help with damage if you plan to use fire based weapons not even comparable to banshees 2nd

3rd some area damage not really used much 

ult auto targeting CC in the same vain to banshees 3rd but can affect same enemy twice while banshees only can do it once

her most notably use is speed running low exterminates using an ignis and world of fire to shoot through walls 

 

they are completely different at what roles they accel at

[Enno69]

I like Banshee, but I find her way too squishy and slow for anything above starchart level. She has little in common with Ember though. She'd need one-handed casts on her 1 and 2, and a defensive bonus on Silence - reducing enemy accuracy, for instance (spatial disorientation, stuff like that).

[Birdframe_Prime]

Banshee is one of the most under-appreciated frames in the game, but I've got very little idea why.

Ember has recently come back a little from the mastery-fodder she became (she was created as an Infested killer, her fire AOE effects and direct damage have a fixed damage and cap, but she was a real force to be reckoned with at the beginning. After a few other frames were brought out (Vauban, the original Saryn with her stupid-high armour and Miasma damage) she fell from fame and needed some buffs. Her AOE became better, her CC became better and the effects of fire were adjusted in general, making her a fair choice now for damage and some CC.

Banshee, however, has always been about CC, about the knock back, about making crap-tier weapons viable and actually one of those frames that's pretty good solo, but really shines in a squad. Her first ability is one of the few in the game that will cliff-kill with her ragdoll. Level infinity enemies die if they're thrown over a cliff, Banshee will do that. Plus her augment will strip armour off making it more viable for solo play. Silence is amazing CC, especially with enough range to keep enemies from drawing line of sight on her, it's not a quick-stun like Accelerant, but it's a far more versatile one as it puts a whole squad under stealth mode. Sonar is, to me, the single best way of solo-levelling weapons the traditional way. Sure I can take Loki to Oceanum for initial levels, but the new Mastery=Points system completely negates that and lets me start levelling them immediately in other modes. In a squad, Sonar will add viability back to your basic weapons when armour scaling would throw it out the window during end-tier games. And Sound Quake, I would say, is really only viable in a team since you're a turret with AOE stagger. You're supposed to get ragdoll from the blast procs, but the animation priority puts stagger as the main proc. Even so, it's a great team-saver and perfect for longer runs where keeping enemies at the 50m range is preferable to having them at the pod causing chaos.

I have played far more Banshee than I have Ember, because Ember caps out her damage (3/4 of her abilities) far quicker than her CC, while Banshee has CC as 3/4 of her abilities and her Sonar allows regular damage to go further.

The only reason I can see for people not playing Banshee as much is that lack of damage. Sure you can get the combo between her augments going and hit 4 to blow things up with repeated hits to weak spots, even at reasonably high level, but there isn't any actual damage behind her. Nothing that isn't situational. Whereas Ember is all about the throwing fire, literally, so you can see how she appeals.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Her abilitys as i see it:

 

Sonic boom: low CC, low damage BUT it has augumented the possibility to reduce armor in a cone to zero. She is in fact the only frame in the game that has this possibility. 

Sonar: easy damage buff. The one spot becomes multiple, over its allready good range if augumented.

Silence: nothing much but depending on your build easy innitial CC (shadow step) with potential to open to stealth finishers (augument, low range). Boosts finisher damage otherwise (augument, high range)

Sound quake: again, nothing special at first glance but becomes the most effective type of CC in the game if build correctly.

 

Noone cares about her bc there is nothing to care about. Her abilitys don't activate some auto-pilot like embers abilitys do. They are edgy as hell and need time to get used to BUT they are frickin effective as they are and require nothing but basic builds to give the strongest results in the game. You will end up using auguments for specific builds but she is among the very few frames that are strong enough to afford these spots...

Her only weakpoint are her basestats rly and that's something to be resolved by a prime version.. is this such a bad place to be in?

P.s.: i agree with op bout the similaritys as they don't share functions but basic cores. Even if the function is different, the endresult on the execution is similar. Difference is the balacing tho where banshee performs ultimately better then ember ever could for a slightly worse performance. Deal with it and banshee is most definitly the better pick.

Edited June 7, 2016 by (PS4)CoolD2108
New phone >.>

[Epsik-kun]

18 hours ago, toolazyforagoodname said:

banshee has pathetic damage

17 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

Banshee is specialized on CC

17 hours ago, williamsos10 said:

She may not deal insane damage

Spoiler

Right.

 

[Fle292]

Banshee basically the most balanced frame in the game and not a undying god like death machine who has built in aim boting.

All of her skills are viable, you can focus any of her skills with augments to achive better effects with them.
Basically if you want to feel the old warframe where cheesing werent that frequent you could play her and finally play warframe which is about "space ninjas" and not some sort of god simulator.

[Futurehero]

This loks like a good spot to plug my reworks for both of these frames :):)

 

Banshee:

 

Ember:

 

[tnccs215]

27 minutes ago, Epsik-kun said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Right.

 

 

18 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

Ember and Banshee have nothing in common. Banshee is specialized on CC, damage increase

 

 

Yes. Right.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

To OP:

I see where you are using the similarities to compare and as such I will comment in context.

Banshee's 1st ability has Rag-doll ability meaning that even though the Raw Damage is low it can 1-shot enemies regardless of level because Rag-doll deaths are not prejudice.

Sonar can be stacked on itself. You can use Power-strength mods to get a 14.95x multiplier without energy Orb or a max 17.45x multiplier with Energy Conversion, becauseof Arcane Chorus efficiency bonus the total efficiency is Still 145% with a Max Blind-Rage (efficiency cap is 175%) While normally there is no viable need to stack a high Power-strength Sonar, it is always an option.

Silence and Sound-Quake don't have 100% stun chance against Osprey/Flying Drones/Regulators***

-Sapping Osprey will float their way over leisurely kill you

-Sensor Regulators in Grineer Spy ignore Sound-Quake CC and cannot be bothered by Silence (Somehow still hearing explosions/Gunshots this are not always deafened by Silence Aura)

Silence with Augment can be used as a Melee damage boost (Long Primed Reach Weapon such as Polearm class, Redeemer, or thrown Melee weapons) Since Savage Silence grants 400% Stealth Multiplier. (Because of how Slash and Gas/Toxic scale with Stealth/Savage Silence multiplier in addition to Melee combo multiplier I would say it is on par if not exceeds Accelerant and Fire Blast.

-Ember limited to Fire Damage

-Savage Silence limited to Melee damage

Short duration Silence becomes a 3sec stun that can be cast roughly every 3secs and is Mobile friendly. Allowing Savage Silence to compete with World On Fire in terms of Mobile CC.

SoundQuake being stationary is more like Fire Blast for comparison's, in my opinion.

-SoundQuake really is more a Niche type ability where it benefits from max range for usefulness on large maps. Otherwise Banshee is left vulnerable by engaging enemies outside of Sound-Quake's range.(this 47-50m build seems most practical)

 

I can't agree that Banshee is terrible or as Niche as Ember.

Banshee can be built to be rather versatile.

People can play her as Damage Buff support which did scale well into late-game when Trinity could basically male her immortal.(Now that would be Limbo banishing her..lol)

She can be used to cheese Interception missions with an AFK-friendly Sound Quake build.

She can be used with high duration and short -Range to pair well with Infested Survival as enemies get stunned in melee range, repeatedly.

She can used with Short duration Max Range Silence for mobile cc while Run'n'gun or melee massacre.

Or she can be played balanced to utilize all abilities.

Really her 1st ability while not commonly built-around, only is hurt in a short-range build all her other abilities can be built around to be tailored for specific mission type.

 

As for passive standpoint : Silent weapons on Banshee do not negate the deafening of Silence, unless Silent passive also silences explosion like Staticor.(Example: On PS4 (no Banshee Passives) putting Hush on Staticor makes Weapon silent but explosions can still be heard by nearby enemies. Silence deafens the nearby enemies thus allowing Staticor to be silent. But some weapons have an audible range in excess of 40m which means that a near max range build is needed to deafen enemies in range of audible gun fire. This last issue is addressed with Banshee passive making all weapons silent.)

TL;DR

Ember and Banshe have different Niches, even though you are drawing at similar ability capabilities. I can't say that I would take Ember over Banshee for the mission types I build Banshee for.

Edited June 7, 2016 by (PS4)MrNishi
I was wrong about Savage Silence scaling

[(PSN)MrNishi]

3 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Her abilitys as i see it:

 

Sonic boom: low CC, low damage BUT it has augumented the possibility to reduce armor in a cone to zero. She is in fact the only frame in the game that has this possibility. 

Sonar: easy damage buff. The one spot becomes multiple, over its allready good range if augumented.

Silence: nothing much but depending on your build easy innitial CC (shadow step) with potential to open to stealth finishers (augument, low range). Boosts finisher damage otherwise (augument, high range)

Sound quake: again, nothing special at first glance but becomes the most effective type of CC in the game if build correctly.

 

Noone cares about her bc there is nothing to care about. Her abilitys don't activate some auto-pilot like embers abilitys do. They are edgy as hell and need time to get used to BUT they are frickin effective as they are and require nothing but basic builds to give the strongest results in the game. You will end up using auguments for specific builds but she is among the very few frames that are strong enough to afford these spots...

Her only weakpoint are her basestats rly and that's something to be resolved by a prime version.. is this such a bad place to be in?

P.s.: i agree with op bout the similaritys as they don't share functions but basic cores. Even if the function is different, the endresult on the execution is similar. Difference is the balacing tho where banshee performs ultimately better then ember ever could for a slightly worse performance. Deal with it and banshee is most definitly the better pick.

Frost Avalanche while AoE and not cone, can also strip away Enemies Armor.

Banshee and Frost are the AoE Armor stripping.

[YasaiTsume]

Endgame setups actually incoperate Banshee into their Squads.

Globe campers tend to use Banshee's Sonar in conjunction with Nova's MP to create a wave of death using Nova's CC and x2 Damage coupled with Banshee's Body multipliers.

 

The reason Banshee has been mostly under the radar is because her abilities were made powerful, yet controlled. 

The only time when she actually went slightly overboard is when her Resonance Mod allowed her to stack layers of Multipliers on an enemy's body, creating a really heavy weakspot. 

That only had a fun run for about 5 days before it got gutted immediately when it caused massive lag for some players. 

 

Besides that, her Savage Silence makes any weapon on her a monster and she is more of a stealth frame than anything. She can also reliably open enemies for finishers without so much as walking near them.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

49 minutes ago, (PS4)MrNishi said:

Frost Avalanche while AoE and not cone, can also strip away Enemies Armor.

Banshee and Frost are the AoE Armor stripping.

True, he needs 250% Power str tho, what equals a frickin maxed transient+blind Rage on the Power cost of a Ultimate ? ash also has this possibility for ideally 2 targets/Cast. I don't rly take these into consideration tho as they're inconvinient as hell :9

 

[(PSN)MrNishi]

56 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

True, he needs 250% Power str tho, what equals a frickin maxed transient+blind Rage on the Power cost of a Ultimate ? ash also has this possibility for ideally 2 targets/Cast. I don't rly take these into consideration tho as they're inconvinient as hell :9

 

Frost is at least  a little more manageable(in terms of AoE vs Ash Shurikens) with Arcane Squall, Power Drift, Intensify, Transient Fortitude, and some RNG with Energy Conversion to not deal with Efficiency woes.