Overpowered players

[viperveteran]

The easiest solution would be for DE to allow players to choose the level of enemies and the conditions, if any, that they face on any node in the star chart. That way if the players want to mow down everything they can choose 1-10 if they want more of a challenge they can choose to start at 60-70 with enhanced armour/melee only.

I think the OP's suggestions would be too intrusive to gameplay IMHO.

 

[TheBrsrkr]

1 hour ago, Slaviar said:

 

And this way you've invalidated everything you wrote about it. If every gun needs to be used skillfully (with the exceptions of Tonkor and Synoid Simulor) what are you even arguing about?

Are you trying to say that aiming a gun is enough skill to justify anything? Aiming a gun is mandatory in a shooter game. Anyone can aim. You are literally trying to use such a basic skill as reloading to justify overpowered weapons. 

 

1 hour ago, Slaviar said:

It's other guns which are so underpowered they make Soma and Boltor look overpowered.

It most certainly is not the other guns. Most of the other guns are comparable to one another. They don't all have the same strength, but they're in a general ballpark area tier for tier. The Boltor, Soma and the things above it are not a part of this. They stand far and above the other weapons and break the power curve. Also what do you suggest? That we buff 150+ weapons to the level of the 20 or so at the absolute top, achieving literally the same result as if those 20 were brought down, without all teh hassle of changing  every other facet of the game to suit that kind of power as the new normal? 

 

1 hour ago, Slaviar said:

Bladed Rounds are decent and I use them on most critical builds. But Argon Scope, despite popular belief, isn't that good. It offers marginal advantage versus additional elemental mod and Warframe itself doesn't favor headshots because mobs' movement is erratic and they love to do "it's beta, my job is done".

And aiming for headshots or not, Soma will still use half of its ammo to kill group of high level mobs. Assuming you won't be downed in a process because it'll take you long time to defeat this group.

And please enlighten me, which weapons aren't overpowered according to you?

Bladed rounds and Point strike/Vital sense then. Whatever. Same results. And using half of its ammo to kill a group of high level mobs would be good if all the other weapons even had a choice in the matter, since 2 clips of something like Burston or Latron Prime would get one enemy down to about half health. 

You honestly expect me to list more than 150 weapons? 

2 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

You just contradicted most of your previous posts with this one statement.  I also haven't tried to justify changing anything, unlike what you have been doing. 

>says I contradict my post

>doesn't say how 

>thinks of aiming as the pinnacle of skill when it's something every shooter game in existence requires besides maybe the original Doom

Also, you cut out the next sentence that explains why I said that. Way to remove the context bro. 

2 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

This is a nonsense statement.  What I do when I play doesn't effect anyone.  Why, because I mostly play solo. 

>I don't understand it

>Therefore it's wrong! 

I literally explained how these things affect everyone playing, and your response is that it doesn't, because you play solo. So. What? Do I get a different patch because I don't play with OP weapons? Does the raid magically cater to those who don't care for the CC or bust meta? Is sortie 3 or Rathuum going to scan my profile for games played with the Tonkor and lower the enemy level? No, but everyone has to deal with it anyway. Including me, and including you. 

2 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

I don't force anyone out of anything.  I choose to play solo myself.  How is me choosing to play solo a problem for you?

Read the comment again and tell me what I said was the problem. 

 

2 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

How so?  I haven't suggested anything that I don't do myself.  If I don't want to play with randoms and/or whatever weapons they bring, then I go solo or group with friends/clan mates.  

In what game should a player, any player, have such an effect on a match that every other player is able to do nothing? Taking away the agency of all the other players might be fun to you, but in a group you're not the only one that matters. This is exactly what you are encouraging. They're having fun, so everyone else can go play somewhere else, right? 

 

2 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

  So, how am I creating a problem for myself? The only way I can see any of my suggestions being a problem is if you just feel that you have no choice but to be in a group with other people. 

Quite the opposite. Joining random people now runs the risk of not allowing you to play at all. Not play well. Not play the way I want to. Play at all. 

 

2 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

Now since we've just established how the way I play doesn't effect anyone else, let's go to how your suggestions will effect me.  Almost all of your suggestions (and those of the OP) will effect me and players like me, but our methods of playing don't effect you or others at all.  Do you now see the issue I have with these suggestions of yours and OP's. 

Did you read anything I said in the last post? It's almost like you're just ignoring the things you can't refute.

 

2 hours ago, -CM-Emptiness said:

Seriously... I'm just observing you nitpicking certain individuals for insignificant quarrels.

My time online is limited, and this isn't anything that hasn't been said over and over for two years with the same answers given every time that everyone seems to comfortably ignore when they don't like what they hear. 

 

2 hours ago, -CM-Emptiness said:

Let me ask you, what is your stand on all of this? Do you feel the game warrants the suggested change? How would you go about it?

It does need the change. CC still runs rampant in the game. Of the close to 200 weapons we have in the game, about 50 of them at maximum are actually used as anything more than flavor. That's 75% of their development time wasted. Mods can multiply your damage hundreds of times. Reward systems are skewed because of this. Enemies are forced to have hard counters so that their impact can be made with the 2 seconds we give them to, if so much. The entire starchart is close to meaningless. Things cannot continue as they are.

As for what I would do with it, everything the OP says, plus a little idea I've been working on with Ryunokage with before he disappeared. 

On 5/16/2016 at 9:45 AM, TheBrsrkr said:

. Maybe a % chance of destroying or scattering pickups will do for the explosives, at different rates depending on power and rank. Or reducing the amount you pick up in a drop from each enemy you kill with them. 

We can do this in a lot of ways I think. In addition to the loot idea, you can have enemies stagger or fire blindly on headshots, or be disarmed or have lower accuracy being shot in the arm.  You could even add a counter system where you can collect points using these and trade them in for rewards. Or a bar that fills like the Syndicate effects that activates a boost of some sort to your frame, depending on what you use or even affect the enemies and what they drop. Things like provide bonus XP for a short time,  better specific  drops, increased chance of getting rarer mods,  increased resources per drop, things like that. You can even split them between combat and utility if need be. It even could increase in effectiveness depending on the level of the enemies you fight, to provide real reasons to go further. 

Basically this would be a system that rewards you for using certain weapons in certain weapon types. Scaling with enemy level, so endless modes give you increased rewards based on how far you can go. So you could go for a weapon with more damage, or you could go for a weapon that gives a benefit that you want. Every weapon is viable regardless of statistical strength. 

 

2 hours ago, -CM-Emptiness said:

You say we are meant to feel OP, but that we shouldn't be OP. The division here is severely blurred and influenced by personal bias, so I just want to know what exactly you desire regarding the issue.

Firstly, we are made to feel OP. That's the core concept of the game. You and 3 people against a massive, endless army crushing everyone who opposes you. However, can you really say that is happening? From my personal standpoint, I don't think so. It looks to me more like we're just holding them off, because they can kill us in all of 2 seconds. I'm not absolutely crushing an enemy, heedless of anything opposing me, using my power and skill to dominate. I'm just hitting them before they can hit me. That's not really OP. That's not the game I started playing 2 years ago. I can count on one hand the amount of actual challenges the game has presented to me this year. PVP is okay, I guess, but my Internet doesn't really allow for it.

That Nightmare Elite tactical alert, though . Now that was fun. To me, that was the ideal. I remember jumping in, expecting it to get steamrolled by my Rhino like every other mission, and I got whacked over the head for it. Died right out. You bet I approached with more caution next time. And it was challenging. And I had fun. It wasn't unfair "do this or you die" kind of thing. It didn't involve me jumping through hoops or enemies cheating. It was just their skill and my skill. And what did they actually change about the enemies? Very little.

I used the Braton and Latron Prime, so I can't say I killed them too quickly. If you did it, try to remember that alert. CC made a difference, but it wasn't so much that you just shut down everything. They could take some hits, but not so many hits that they just end up spongy. They did a lot of damage, but not so much damage that you feel cheated when you die. The AI was showing off its true colors, having them split up, converge, use cover, flank you when you tried to use cover, actually ran with some decent speed, tried to zigzag when you shot at them, actually backed each other up, the whole song and dance. That was OP to me. The enemy was actually trying it's damnedest to kill me, and I was just too good. Not because I hit that 4 button until they all died. 

Of course, all that was just my personal opinion. Logistically, however, being OP creates all sorts of problems for developers, which translates over to the players. Content production, for one. We see it today. If a weapon is released that doesn't compete with what's already there, it's wasted content. Development costs a lot of money and time, down the drain because of 1 or 2 weapons already beat it out. Then there's the content that it burns through by virtue of being OP. Your expected value of acquisition and time spent on content then radically changes, because your weapon /frame can do more in less time. 

Then there's the enemies. If they can't do anything, they're not providing a challenge. If they're not providing a challenge, then what's their point? So enemies get buffed. But you can't just buff an enemy and call it a day, you have to buff it in a way that allows it to compete with your weapon. If the weapon it competes with is OP or broken in some aspect,then the enemy will reflect that, making that weapon the only, or at least most viable way of dealing with that particular enemy. This affects weapon diversity, which means the pool of weapons to choose from shrinks, meaning more wasted development hours that don't draw in revenue. 

The acquisition rate can also be changed more directly, as in lowering drop rates for drop pools, since you're not expected to be at the new acquisition rate. No one likes lower drop tables. A new standard for efficiency is made, and it does not always correlate with fun. Grinding becomes grinding instead of playing. And it doesn't end. It will continue so long as the overpowered things exist. Remember that overpowered and most powerful aren't the same thing, it's more about the margin by which it is the most powerful. Being OP isn't good for anyone in the long term. Not developers, not players, and not investors. 

[Slaviar]

25 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

since 2 clips of something like Burston or Latron Prime would get one enemy down to about half health

OK. I'm no longer discussing with you and I'm no longer answering anyhthing you write because you clearly have zero idea about game. Latron Prime taking two clips to take one mob down? Maybe if this mob is lvl 300. It's superior to Soma and I won't even mention even better Wraith

[0_PRICE_0]

cry cry -_-  you alone have played 635 hours  people like you are those that spoil the game for something dumb -_-

[Chipputer]

7 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

>greentext arrows

>outside of 4chan 

Wew lads

u wana fite m8

[Azrael]

7 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

what is your opinion on weapon mods scaling damage over 100x times their original amount? Do you find that reasonable? Do you also find 500K EHP enemies reasonable?

Those are just numbers. Whether we use large numbers or small numbers to represent health and damage doesn't matter. What matters is, what happens when you put weapons on and try to fight enemies strong enough to justify the amount of damage you do? Right now I don't think there are any unreasonable enemies, and while there are a few unreasonable weapons as a whole we are okay. What I DON'T like is that the incredible scaling means that challenging enemies are only to be found on raids or after an hour of T4 survival. Since this is a natural consequence of the extreme scaling for both tenno and enemies, I would support dialing both back a bit. The problem is that new players need low-level content to play, and experienced players should be basically gods while playing that low-level content. If you make it so that nobody can ever feel like a walking god while playing on apollodorus then you've screwed up one of the things that makes warframe fun: becoming stupidly powerful. In all honesty I would be happy with just a few higher level nodes and the ability to skip the first 40 minutes of void survival, but a reduction in scaling would be beneficial if it were done right (i.e. don't make the game "flat").

 

7 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

So can you explain how Tenno feel "powerful" in "end-game" content?

I once did a melee-only T4 survival for 2 hours. It was fun. On the one hand, it was a little tense because after 90 minutes anybody can one-shot you. On the other hand I felt powerful because I was able to shred level 290+ bombards in 2 seconds using my Dual Kamas Prime. We didn't camp, instead we used naramon and ran around killing things. Now, before you say "oh, naramon makes it too easy" you DO have to keep it up, and sometimes it didn't work out and someone died. In fact we barely made it out, because at around the 2 hour mark bombards started shooting despite the invisibility and we started dying every 5 seconds.

Not that I'm defending naramon. It's definitely too powerful, and needs to be toned down. But it was a nice change from hiding in a frost bubble or using loki + vauban. The point I'm making is: we felt both powerful and vulnerable at the same time. Also clever, because we were able to figure out how to kill level 290+ bombards in 2 seconds, which is not at all easy (there were 2 of us, the other guy used prisma dual cleavers) (hint: I played Mirage and had no elemental mods on my kamas). A big part of warframe is using game knowledge to figure out how to use hidden or ignored mechanics to extend our abilities and weapons, which is a big part of why we can be so powerful now.

 

7 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

Do you also not like the conditional mods requiring skill to use?

I don't understand your suggestions. How would they work? You provided no examples or explanation of what it means for a mod to be "skill-indexed." I need something much more concrete than that. (unless you provided it elsewhere and I missed it, in which case I apologize and could you post it again?)

You know what mods I like? Shadow debt mods and weapon-specific augments. I love the "on headshot" conditions. And weapon-specific augments give unique flavor to different weapons, encouraging their use. And whoever said that Argon Scope wasn't good is dead wrong, on some weapons it provides a huge dps boost (for example, soma prime, tonkor, rakta cernos) because it gets them into the red-crit zone. But I really enjoy the unusual ones, such as Nano-Applicator.

Oh, one more point: the suggestion to remove serration and "bake" it into the weapon is a terrible idea. There are 2 ways it can work: either we keep the open slot and get a huge buff to all weapons (since we essentially just got an extra slot), or we remove the slot and nothing has changed (except that now you have a hidden slot with serration that you can't remove). And nobody seems to realize that some people use builds without it. For example, I've used Ignis builds without serration, and my sweeper prime doesn't use Point Blank. I know you didn't advocate for this, but I just wanted to point out how bad it is, in case it comes up.

[Soketsu]

This thread is not dead yet ?

some still give a try to this guy who either ignore you, either say that ideas will make the game skilled *laugh*, even if he don't experimented the whole game ?

i'm surprised by your will, give up from a long time

On 15/06/2016 at 10:36 AM, xXduncanXx said:

no, just no, we already got a lot of nerfs lately we don't want  more 

 

 

this post and his reputation are enough in order to say that this thread is sterile 

[Fuzzy-Bunny]

21 minutes ago, Lord_Azrael said:

Those are just numbers. Whether we use large numbers or small numbers to represent health and damage doesn't matter. What matters is, what happens when you put weapons on and try to fight enemies strong enough to justify the amount of damage you do? Right now I don't think there are any unreasonable enemies, and while there are a few unreasonable weapons as a whole we are okay. What I DON'T like is that the incredible scaling means that challenging enemies are only to be found on raids or after an hour of T4 survival. Since this is a natural consequence of the extreme scaling for both tenno and enemies, I would support dialing both back a bit. The problem is that new players need low-level content to play, and experienced players should be basically gods while playing that low-level content. If you make it so that nobody can ever feel like a walking god while playing on apollodorus then you've screwed up one of the things that makes warframe fun: becoming stupidly powerful. In all honesty I would be happy with just a few higher level nodes and the ability to skip the first 40 minutes of void survival, but a reduction in scaling would be beneficial if it were done right (i.e. don't make the game "flat").

  The "conditional mods" suggestion that you seem to have missed is in the OP (edit 2). Those mods would still be rare and require significant resource investment so I don't believe that anyone that can't max Serration could max them easily.

[TheBrsrkr]

7 hours ago, Slaviar said:

OK. I'm no longer discussing with you and I'm no longer answering anyhthing you write because you clearly have zero idea about game. Latron Prime taking two clips to take one mob down? Maybe if this mob is lvl 300. It's superior to Soma and I won't even mention even better Wraith

Soma, yeah. Not Soma Prime. That 2.4 second reload is going to get you killed, and even with that crap load of damage you're going to need more than 30 shots for one enemy. But if you have nothing to say, then sure. 

[Slaviar]

13 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Soma, yeah. Not Soma Prime. That 2.4 second reload is going to get you killed, and even with that crap load of damage you're going to need more than 30 shots for one enemy. But if you have nothing to say, then sure. 

*Soma Prime

[DatDarkOne]

7 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Read the comment again and tell me what I said was the problem. 

I read the comment.  The way you worded it was implied I was directly effecting others game play. 

7 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Joining random people now runs the risk of not allowing you to play at all. Not play well. Not play the way I want to. Play at all. 

You can't control how people will behave.  If you've interacted with any online game, you would know this is a fact.  There will always be people that don't do things the same way as you.  Their way isn't necessarily wrong unless they are griefing/trolling intentionally.  Even with your changes you will still have this problem.  Luckily I have the option to go solo.  I will say this again, "The only way I can see any of my suggestions being a problem is if you just feel that you have no choice but to be in a group with other people."  That is a personal issue that others shouldn't have to be responsible for. 

7 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Did you read anything I said in the last post? It's almost like you're just ignoring the things you can't refute.

I read all of them.  I responded to the ones that were directed at me.  Yet you keep ignoring the main points that I'm making.  I understand what you are getting at about how some abilities can possibly ruin gameplay for others.  It's just that your and OP's suggestions are too intrusive.  ViperVeteran also said it in his post.

8 hours ago, viperveteran said:

I think the OP's suggestions would be too intrusive to gameplay

  This and only this is the problem I have with the suggestions you and OP have been making.  That you can't see this might be problem in itself. 

Slaviar might be right in his reply.  which would really be a shame if it's true. 

7 hours ago, Slaviar said:

OK. I'm no longer discussing with you and I'm no longer answering anyhthing you write because you clearly have zero idea about game. Latron Prime taking two clips to take one mob down? Maybe if this mob is lvl 300. It's superior to Soma and I won't even mention even better Wraith

 

Edited June 22, 2016 by DatDarkOne
correction

[TheBrsrkr]

4 hours ago, Chipputer said:

u wana fite m8

U havin a giggle there m8?1v1 me irl famalam come get r3kt 

[TheBrsrkr]

8 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

I read the comment.  The way you worded it was implied I was directly effecting others game play. 

But what does it SAY is the problem? Did I say it affects other's gameplay, or the entire game? 

 

9 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

.You can't control how people will behave.  If you've interacted with any online game, you would know this is a fact.  There will always be people that don't do things the same way as you.  Their way isn't necessarily wrong unless they are griefing/trolling intentionally.  Even with your changes you will still have this problem.  

It doesn't matter how they behave if you can get the same game experience. This isn't about behavior, it's about the weapons. A guy blowing up a room full of enemies in one shot is just having fun. He isn't intentionally doing anything wrong. But he still affected the other three players' game experience dramatically. It's not his fault the weapon is OP, at least not directly. But he is still using it. He is still causing a problem. And how exactly would making weapons less overpowered create the same issue? 

 

14 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

  Luckily I have the option to go solo.  I will say this again, "The only way I can see any of my suggestions being a problem is if you just feel that you have no choice but to be in a group with other people."  That is a personal issue that others shouldn't have to be responsible for. 

 

This runs directly in contrast with the next thing you say. 

 

15 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

I read all of them.  

If you did read all of them, you would notice this:

"Quite the opposite. Joining random people now runs the risk of not allowing you to play at all. Not play well. Not play the way I want to. Play at all."

This is what I said in direct response to your repeated comment. Yet it is nowhere in your new statement. Internal consistency is lacking. 

17 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

I responded to the ones that were directed at me.  Yet you keep ignoring the main points that I'm making.  I understand what you are getting at about how some abilities can possibly ruin gameplay for others.  It's just that your and OP's suggestions are too intrusive.  ViperVeteran also said it in his post.

Like I said, it's impossible for it not to be. There is absolutely no way to fix ft his where no one will be negatively affected. If there is, I've yet to see you post it. That being said, saying it's intrusive without saying how, why or why I should care is just wasting both my time and yours. 

 

20 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

 This and only this is the problem I have with the suggestions you and OP have been making.  That you can't see this might be problem in itself. 

Saying "this is a problem"  and going into absolutely no detail about any of it is not worth discussion. It is a waste of time and I'll take no part in it. 

 

21 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Slaviar might be right in his reply.  which would really be a shame if it's true. 

I think I know my favorite gun. 

[DatDarkOne]

2 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Saying "this is a problem"  and going into absolutely no detail about any of it is not worth discussion. It is a waste of time and I'll take no part in it. 

That you can't see at all how any of your suggestions are intrusive.  Is the problem.  I'm going to have to fully agree with Slaviar.  It's not that you might not know what you're talking about, it's that you don't care about how it effects others and ignoring everything else.  I'm now completely done responding to you also. 

[Azrael]

1 hour ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

The "conditional mods" suggestion that you seem to have missed is in the OP (edit 2).

Whoops! Heh heh. I, uh, sorta might've missed the spoiler thingy, maybe. Probably. But you don't know for sure!

I actually like ALL of those mod suggestions. They sound like enormous fun!

You know what we need more of? Incentives to wall-latch. Nobody ever does it! I've started building an arcane arachne, just to justify wall-latching more often.

I'm still very unsure about removing serration, for the reasons I listed earlier. I would be much more in favor of reducing it's effects. For reference:

1 hour ago, Lord_Azrael said:

There are 2 ways it can work: either we keep the open slot and get a huge buff to all weapons (since we essentially just got an extra slot), or we remove the slot and nothing has changed (except that now you have a hidden slot with serration that you can't remove). And nobody seems to realize that some people use builds without it. For example, I've used Ignis builds without serration, and my sweeper prime doesn't use Point Blank.

I realize you're suggesting removing it and just losing the damage bonus, but that would serve to make the game a lot more "flat," and some of our sense of progression would be removed.

[TheBrsrkr]

1 minute ago, DatDarkOne said:

That you can't see at all how any of your suggestions are intrusive.  

So my suggestions are intrusive because..... They're intrusive. Right. 

 

2 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

.  I'm going to have to fully agree with Slaviar.  It's not that you might not know what you're talking about, it's that you don't care about how it effects others and ignoring everything else.  

Yes, I don't care about your feelings. You haven't given me a reason to. This isn't about you or me, this is about the entire game and how it works. I don't care how you feel about it. You haven't added anything to the conversation but deflection and cognitive dissonance so far. I'll say it again. Why should I care? 

[Slaviar]

1 hour ago, DatDarkOne said:

Slaviar might be right in his reply.  which would really be a shame if it's true. 

I've tested it at Simulacrum. Soma Prime takes four times more ammunition to kill same enemy, assuming you use similar build and aim in similar way. By the time Latron* expends half of its ammo Soma Prime already ran out of its reserve. This require ammo mutation (which lowers damage) or restores (but hey, aren't restores cheese?) to counter

Edited June 23, 2016 by Slaviar
*Latron Prime

[DatDarkOne]

11 minutes ago, Slaviar said:

I've tested it at Simulacrum. Soma Prime takes four times more ammunition to kill same enemy, assuming you use similar build and aim in similar way. By the time Latron* expends half of its ammo Soma Prime already ran out of its reserve. This require ammo mutation (which lowers damage) or restores (but hey, aren't restores cheese?) to counter

I'm sorry Slaviar.  I was referring to the "no longer discussing with you and I'm no longer answering anything you write because you clearly have zero idea about game" part of your post.  :D  He has already proven that he's only concerned with his wants and to hell with all the other players as long as he gets his way. 

[Slaviar]

13 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

I'm sorry Slaviar.  I was referring to the "no longer discussing with you and I'm no longer answering anything you write because you clearly have zero idea about game" part of your post.  :D  He has already proven that he's only concerned with his wants and to hell with all the other players as long as he gets his way. 

Ah, OK. My bad

[-CM-Emptiness]

11 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

Hahaha. Are you serious? Do you honestly believe that most regular players can't hit head shots if they try? You're taking things way out of proportion.

If it was just head shots, the current critical + damage mechanic should attain maximum satisfaction from both parties. The idea being that getting head shots will enhance game-play but isn't required to do sufficient damage.

11 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

Yes, sadly. If the aim of the player is to do endless missions to farm or draco leveling then Tonkor is pretty much a way to go right now. There's little incentive to try other "MR fodder" weapons beyond curiosity and MR benefits. Why would a player like that grind for say Latron prime and aim for headshots when he can just wipe out entire groups with Tonkor?

Agreed about the Tonkor. But this is about progression. Warframe hardly has a 'true' progression system. Far from it. The only close forms are the wonky MR progression and the partial skill + experience based progression (which caps quite easily).

11 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

This was never a suggestion for countering power creep. What I suggested was to give players incentive to use all their skills instead of spamming "I win" buttons and oneshotting everything by spraying bullets in the general direction of enemies.

Good intentions, wrong method. If you want to incentivize players to become more skillful, only lower the capabilities of mandatory mods like Serration e.g. +40% damage. Otherwise, the only way to achieve a damage boost is located in a skill-oriented zone. It's along the lines of, Braton can kill a Bombard within 10 shots, but you can reduce it to say, 7 through skill-indexed mods. The difference needs to be neither too large nor too small. It's an incentive after all.

Also take into account Tonkor mechanics. It is a head shot on contact. So it would benefit from your skill-indexed mods nonetheless.

10 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

It does need the change. CC still runs rampant in the game. Of the close to 200 weapons we have in the game, about 50 of them at maximum are actually used as anything more than flavor. That's 75% of their development time wasted. Mods can multiply your damage hundreds of times. Reward systems are skewed because of this. Enemies are forced to have hard counters so that their impact can be made with the 2 seconds we give them to, if so much. The entire starchart is close to meaningless. Things cannot continue as they are.

So we have 1/4 of all weapons being viable, and you prefer every weapon to be so. From your previous post I gather around 10-15 weapons are clearly OP. Now, suppose we removed mandatory mods. Since every weapon benefits from these mods, the change will still keep the order and scale of OP between all weapons. The outcome being, you used those OP weapons as a benchmark to balance out the rest. How thoughtful, considering 80% of all weapons are now much lower than they've ever been. In effect, it's a really long detour. Why not just remove the outliers and balance the weapon system around the majority in the middle. Then you can scale it down to size. [Also read above response to OP].

• CC is a controversial issue. Currently, we have bosses that are invulnerable to CC, as well as mini-bosses that take reduced effect from it. Also, Ancient auras, Nullifier bubbles, Scrambus, environmental hazards. I honestly see it as a requirement especially if you plan to go to a scaling where enemies can one-hit you. CC, along with self-buffs are the only ways of mitigating such occurrences. Enemies have their numbers, and we have our CC. The lock-down is a bit over-the-top in higher-end, so I will suggest having the scaling include resistance to CC.
• Reward systems...were always skewed. DE reaps their profit from introducing RNG and the grind mechanic, so players who don't prefer the grind will purchase it instead. You won't get anywhere discussing this, since it is the one thing DE values above their game - profits.
• Starchart 3.0 will be coming. Patience.

Fact is, we need to fix enemies, our damage, and our survivability. I'm sure we can all agree on that. BUT, the order is crucial. With recent frame reworks, player survivability is at least capable relative the the demands of higher-level content. It isn't overly OP nor is it completely negligible. Sure there are a couple of tweaks required, but it is generally fine. That leaves the enemies and player damage. I don't know what you think, but to me, player damage first is a terrible idea. When you reach higher-levels, it is about who kills who first. Despite considering the lock-down of CC, if our damage capabilities are lowered, even the best weapon options won't be sufficient to take down higher-level enemies. If it was just endless, you could argue that the limit is justified, but we also have Sorties and Raids. Sorties with the scaled enemies, Eximus, resistance to elemental / physical, weapon limits etc. Raids with the scaled enemies, reduced CC effect, teamwork + co-ordination and bullet-sponge bosses. Making these content near-impossible for a temporary period could deter a great proportion of the community, no matter how short. On the other hand, giving players the short opportunity to feel as OP as they want (enemy-rework first) seems like the relatively better option.

10 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Basically this would be a system that rewards you for using certain weapons in certain weapon types. Scaling with enemy level, so endless modes give you increased rewards based on how far you can go. So you could go for a weapon with more damage, or you could go for a weapon that gives a benefit that you want. Every weapon is viable regardless of statistical strength. 

That is an interesting concept indeed. What rewards are you referring to specifically? Resources? Wave rewards? Also, I think statistical strength would play a major part in leading the community in terms of weapon choice. Make it so every weapon is on average the same (you could also rank by MR, though you need to remove outliers and reduce the distance in scaling) and only unique in their mechanics. Good concept though :D

10 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

I can count on one hand the amount of actual challenges the game has presented to me this year.

Typically challenge is a one-time experience, especially in a game like Warframe with its grind-system. It is only a challenge when  you can't succeed. Do it once, and it will feel easier. Do it a hundred times, and you will feel bored. At least that's my interpretation. If we could get a sustainable challenge it would be nice. 

10 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

That Nightmare Elite tactical alert, though . Now that was fun. To me, that was the ideal. I remember jumping in, expecting it to get steamrolled by my Rhino like every other mission, and I got whacked over the head for it. Died right out. You bet I approached with more caution next time. And it was challenging. And I had fun. It wasn't unfair "do this or you die" kind of thing. It didn't involve me jumping through hoops or enemies cheating. It was just their skill and my skill. And what did they actually change about the enemies? Very little.

I used the Braton and Latron Prime, so I can't say I killed them too quickly. If you did it, try to remember that alert. CC made a difference, but it wasn't so much that you just shut down everything. They could take some hits, but not so many hits that they just end up spongy. They did a lot of damage, but not so much damage that you feel cheated when you die. The AI was showing off its true colors, having them split up, converge, use cover, flank you when you tried to use cover, actually ran with some decent speed, tried to zigzag when you shot at them, actually backed each other up, the whole song and dance. That was OP to me. The enemy was actually trying it's damnedest to kill me, and I was just too good. Not because I hit that 4 button until they all died.

Nope, probably wasn't here during that time. It was Nightmare though right? Like the Nightmare mode? That would explain why the scaling fits. I can't comment on the AI though, seems like maybe you didn't notice it before since you never gave them enough time to move into position. If it was actually so, I would appreciate if it made its way into end-game :) 

Since your gear wasn't modified for cheesing like the rest, I'd say it only provided a challenge for that reason. Just imagine locking down corridors with Synoid. There is also the fact that scaling was singular in that alert. If enemy-scaling wasn't so endless, we could cap at a certain level and build missions like these for end-game :P

10 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Of course, all that was just my personal opinion. Logistically, however, being OP creates all sorts of problems for developers, which translates over to the players. Content production, for one. We see it today. If a weapon is released that doesn't compete with what's already there, it's wasted content. Development costs a lot of money and time, down the drain because of 1 or 2 weapons already beat it out. Then there's the content that it burns through by virtue of being OP. Your expected value of acquisition and time spent on content then radically changes, because your weapon /frame can do more in less time.

IF it requires killing or locking-down to succeed, content would indeed be wasted. That's why I enjoy Raids. It's more so of solving puzzles and working to co-ordinate the team than blindly shooting or spamming. A common issue is Valkyr or someone killing enemies in LoR when you require them for EV to carry the bomb. It redirects the meta in a sense. 

Agreed though about the relativity of gear. Players always strive to attain the 'best'. I await the day when 'best' becomes synonymous with 'preference'.

10 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Then there's the enemies. If they can't do anything, they're not providing a challenge. If they're not providing a challenge, then what's their point? So enemies get buffed. But you can't just buff an enemy and call it a day, you have to buff it in a way that allows it to compete with your weapon. If the weapon it competes with is OP or broken in some aspect,then the enemy will reflect that, making that weapon the only, or at least most viable way of dealing with that particular enemy. This affects weapon diversity, which means the pool of weapons to choose from shrinks, meaning more wasted development hours that don't draw in revenue. 

• Nullifiers and Disruptors, Scrambus and Bursa to counter CC. Scrambus also move away unlike other units, making it harder to hit them. They are also quite agile.
• Eximus units with all their auras. Fire can knockdown repeatedly. Toxin scales absurdly through shields, Frost can stack like Infested Impendance back when you could immobilize enemies. 
• Manics, whilst slow when creeping up, strike from behind and can do insane damage if they jump on you.
• Juggernauts attack as soon as they are vulnerable. They are a nightmare for solo runs if you don't have really good damage reduction or a distraction.

Whilst I agree about toning down the severely OP weapons, the above indicate that there are many other viable alternatives to provide challenge than simply changing statistical values. Maybe DE should incorporate these into everyday game-play.

Also, my suggestion:

On 19/06/2016 at 2:23 PM, -CM-Emptiness said:

Here's an idea. Challenge concepts similar to the current Nightmare mode.

• Headshot only
• Weapon class lock
• Parkour only
• Ultimate stealth mode - lose if enemies are alarmed
• Race to the finish
• Eximus hell

Maybe limit to Void or something like that. Alternatively, you could have it for all nodes, but in a mode progression manner, or behind MR lock.

 

We could also incorporate endless as a mode into every node, just for the players who want that sort of challenge. 

10 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

The acquisition rate can also be changed more directly, as in lowering drop rates for drop pools, since you're not expected to be at the new acquisition rate. No one likes lower drop tables. A new standard for efficiency is made, and it does not always correlate with fun. Grinding becomes grinding instead of playing. And it doesn't end. It will continue so long as the overpowered things exist. Remember that overpowered and most powerful aren't the same thing, it's more about the margin by which it is the most powerful. Being OP isn't good for anyone in the long term. Not developers, not players, and not investors. 

Well Warframe is inherently a grind-fest after all. Maybe the couple of missions at the very end are not, but progression up to that point consists of extremely repetitive missions. So for most the road up until end-game becomes a tedious task, and they opt to do so with as much cheesing as possible. Not necessarily Draco, but speed-running through missions. DE wants us to slow down the pace, and we want to speed it up to reach the good content. I get that OP impacts on developers as well, but there are so many gaps in their process structure:

First, the lack of thorough pre-release testing. Which leads to the OP in the first place, and sways between two points before settling somewhere in the middle. Second, the steps of resolution. If Tonkor is so OP, fix it. What did they do? They removed head-shot crits but it only affected the Penta. Tonkor still does head-shot on contact. So now they leave it, when they could have reduced critical multiplier, chance, damage or even increased the MR requirement. I know they're busy, but they basically just gave up. *Ominous feeling*

Back to the original point. You're right, OP doesn't mean most powerful. However, there needs to be at least some degree of margin within which weapons can fluctuate. I'm not interested in discussing which weapons are OP, but relative to the post of the OP, the proposed removal of mandatory mods does NOTHING about the current margin between strong and weak weapons. If the OP uses strong weapons as a benchmark for this change, you would have to individually buff every other under-performing weapon to achieve the choice of diversity we are looking for. If he doesn't, I don't see any change other than a more difficult end-game experience until the enemy-rework. Especially since Raids and Sorties are daily 'challenge' content, we wouldn't want to turn them into daily chores.

[IRVoidGuru]

On 6/15/2016 at 3:40 AM, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

 

The other problem are warframe powers. A lot of warframe powers completely disable or outright kill our enemies and for this reason they are supposed to be limited by energy. Powers are supposed to be used sparingly to enhance our play style and get out of tough situations. Unfortunately DE essentially broke their own energy system and now spamming powers has become the norm. It's actually entirely possible to get through non-endless missions without ever using weapons and still do your fair share of damage. Skill spamming also forces DE to give us cheesy enemies to counter our cheese and that's how we got nullifiers, bursas, eximuses,...

 

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Mod examples:

• Head hunter ( 30% bonus damage on head shot or 50% bonus damage on head shot but -20% on body shots) drain 9, rarity: rare
• Strafer (40% bonus damage while airborne) drain 9, rarity : rare
• Group killer (exclusive to launchers/ignis)(10% damage boost for every enemy caught in the blast, -20% base damage) drain 9, rarity :rare
• Speed killer ( guns receive a kill counter with a 3 sec cooldown)(every foe slain increases weapon damage for 5% and is capped at 100%) drain 9, rarity : rare
• Wall turret ( 50% bonus damage while wall latching) drain 7, rarity : rare
• Perfectionist ( 40% damage bonus, on miss receive -20% damage for 5s) (hitting dead bodies or over penetrations doesn't count as missing) drain 9, rarity :rare
• Vital strike (at max rank doubles body part difference multipliers (good and bad)) drain 9, rarity : rare

These are just a few examples. I'm sure DE could come up with many more.

 

 

i stopped reading around here, there will be no form of fun high end game play for me in this game by limiting powers. some are Necessary Just to live in some missions. what is mesa without shatter shield? what is chroma without Vex armor? loki without invisibility? they are dead, that's what. iv been able to deal with the enemies in the game just fine. nerfing our ability to use powers will make a large number of players leave , nerf efficiency mods? lol whats next duration? or range then Duration mods?. and as for restores being nerfed? whats next specters? this idea could get out of hand if any of it was implemented. sorry but just no. serration, multi shot all that sure why not. im down. but nerf trin ? energy restore ability? and efficiency??? NO Thank You !

[LuckyCharm]

Players aren't overpowered. Some frames are better at doing things than others, but if anything needs to be changed... i'd nerf the fox outta trinity or change her so players actually need to play smart instead of reckless knowing that they've pretty much got a permenant supply of energy, as well as 75% damage reduction for free as well as their overshields. Be mad if you want all you trinity mains out there. But I've mained her for just that exact cheese for all the raids I've ever done. And theres a reason why NEED EV is spammed in recruiting chat so much

[Chipputer]

4 minutes ago, LuckyCharm said:

Players aren't overpowered. Some frames are better at doing things than others, but if anything needs to be changed... i'd nerf the fox outta trinity or change her so players actually need to play smart instead of reckless knowing that they've pretty much got a permenant supply of energy, as well as 75% damage reduction for free as well as their overshields. Be mad if you want all you trinity mains out there. But I've mained her for just that exact cheese for all the raids I've ever done. And theres a reason why NEED EV is spammed in recruiting chat so much

Trinity highlights a huge problem with energy economy in this game moreso than she does anything else. Energy limiting the use of our powers is kind of pointless when we're constantly super charged, right?

Too bad the second you try to say anything about energy economy on the forums the anti-nerf brigade comes out in full force.

[LuckyCharm]

4 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

Trinity highlights a huge problem with energy economy in this game moreso than she does anything else. Energy limiting the use of our powers is kind of pointless when we're constantly super charged, right?

Too bad the second you try to say anything about energy economy on the forums the anti-nerf brigade comes out in full force.

Exactly, but lack of energy was always a balance handle DE used before the trinity buff to EV. Though with Energy Restores and Zenurik tree we have options now but EV is still the major problem with game difficulty at the moment since teams are generally built now for spam and damage/range low efficiency builds purely because they know they'll never run out of energy. Remove that and we'd have a challenging game again for the most part

[Scoliak]

One suggested and then alot players are mad becouse of nerf. So why play the game when it gets nerfed every month while there are thousand other great game to play?  

But! Something is really overpowered... Did you ever thinked about enemy scalling?

Edited June 23, 2016 by DwayneWalsh