Overpowered players

[DatDarkOne]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

I know this may seem off topic, but I believe that this is the reason why we believe plaayers are too powerful. We just haven't been playing at our level yet. Sorties imposing weird requirements and nullifiers do NOT quantify as matching player level because they're open to counterplay, which devolves into the idea of cheesing missions. Playing the game to your level is not equal to limiting player capabilities. That is a Challange. Nullifiers, sortie requirements and other obvious counterplay tactics do not balance enemies for advanced players, they ruin it. I guarantee, that if we had more missions that start at higher levels, we'd see less problems with overpowered players.

This suggestion is without a doubt one of the best ever mentioned.  It's simple and could resolve a lot of issues without changing how we play.  Nicely worded too. 

[Slaviar]

2 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Funny thing is, you were the one that compared it to Burston Prime, on the grounds that both were balanced.  Weapons being balanced doesn't mean the same thing as comparable. 

Nope, you were the one putting Latron Prime in line with Burston, namely here:

On 22.06.2016 at 5:47 PM, TheBrsrkr said:

And using half of its ammo to kill a group of high level mobs would be good if all the other weapons even had a choice in the matter, since 2 clips of something like Burston or Latron Prime would get one enemy down to about half health. 

 

2 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

First and foremost, the Latron Prime is a status, not crit, weapon

With 15% crit chance Latron Prime is absolutely viable as crit weapon.

As for your attempt to discredit my test, you've completely ignored most important part: this was test in controlled enviroment of Simulacrum. In real game you'll either rely heavily on restores (cheese) or use ammo mutation- which will lower damage, tipping the scale further towards Latron.

2 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

which have to be precisely aimed for the effect you're talking about

Don't start this discussion about aiming again. You were already proven wrong on it.

2 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

if by a few times you meant never, then sure

 

On 16.06.2016 at 11:19 AM, Slaviar said:

How is it NOT trivial?

 

On 16.06.2016 at 5:36 PM, Slaviar said:

And yet  you've failed to explain why these alerts aren't trivial

 

On 16.06.2016 at 8:28 PM, Slaviar said:

You're avoiding answer

 

2 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Has anything I have actually said on the topic put the onus on the players to change what they are doing, or has it put the onus on the game to prevent them from being able to do it in the first place?  I suggested nothing of the sort, and I had to look over my posts to see if I did, so that's another 10 minutes down the drain. 

You've missed most important part, which is <40 lvl mobs are trivial for veteran with maxed mods and gear. You were proven wrong again so you convieniently ignored it.

2 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

So that was altogether 55 minutes, nearly an hour of my time

Very disrespectful and unconstructive of you, especially considering that amount of your posts and date of joining point towards you almost living on this forum. I wonder if you even play Warframe anymore.

Funniest thing is I've written constructive post earlier on. You didn't even bother to respond. I start to think you want all posters who don't agree with you to leave so you make them walk in circles, talking about same thing over and over and over again until they become frustrated, state they are and stop responding

Edited June 30, 2016 by Slaviar
Typos

[TheBrsrkr]

2 hours ago, Slaviar said:

Nope, you were the one putting Latron Prime in line with Burston, namely here:

Is that what it says? Read closer. Does that really compare the two to each other, or the Soma Prime, which is what we were discussing at the time? The point wasn't that they both do half of an enemy's health as damage in two clips, the point was that the Soma Prime doesn't. So sorry, you weren't being dishonest. You just didn't understand. 

2 hours ago, Slaviar said:

Quote

 

Both of which were answered. 

On 6/16/2016 at 8:31 PM, TheBrsrkr said:

You're not asking a proper question.  

 

On 6/16/2016 at 0:33 PM, TheBrsrkr said:

They are because you make them trivial wherever possible. 

Neither of which addressed the original post. 

On 6/16/2016 at 9:07 AM, TheBrsrkr said:

Sigh.

Do you understand how hard it is to type a lengthy response, on a mobile device no less? The constant cutting, editing, checking for autocorrect errors, the sheer annoyance for typing? Not to mention I have to make sure my point is coherent, no terms are misused or ambiguous, and that the sentence structure leaves no room for accidental misinterpretation? All that work to get slapped with something as slapdash and meaningless as this. 

Literally everything is OP on Mercury. Literally. Everything. I'm not even being hyperbolic here, it's designed to be. Mercury is the entry level, which means enemies are designed to fight players with one ability, level zero gear, with level zero mods if so much, with a level zero frame, with no experience using either,for the entire planet. Anyone who does not fill ALL of those characteristics is over leveled for Mercury. How is Mercury even part of this discussion? You're allowed to steamroll content you're so obviously over leveled for. You're not allowed to steamroll any content by literally pushing one button over and over until you see a "mission complete screen, while everyone else sits there twiddling their thumbs. No one cares about getting an arbitrary number of kills, they're interested in what they get to do. If what they get to do is absolutely bloody nothing, expect complaints. 

15 more minutes gone. 

 

2 hours ago, Slaviar said:

With 15% crit chance Latron Prime is absolutely viable as crit weapon.

It's better at dealing relevant armor bonus damage and armor stripping or CC effects than just straight damage because it's base is high enough already. Whatever. Doesn't change that a Soma Prime would get much, much more out of the same mods because of much better crit stats. 

 

2 hours ago, Slaviar said:

As for your attempt to discredit my test, you've completely ignored most important part: this was test in controlled enviroment of Simulacrum. In real game you'll either rely heavily on restores (cheese) or use ammo mutation- which will lower damage, tipping the scale further towards Latron.

Outside of a test, all the reloading you do with the Latron Prime will get you killed, unless you use reload mods, which, guess what, lowers your relevant damage. But since the Soma benefits more from the same mods that are there, it still pulls ahead. Also, now restores are cheesy? Only when it suits you? Also also also, you will be using abilities, mainly CC,  to keep you alive at that level. A still or slowed target is still better for the Soma Prime due to its massive fire rate, and the Latron Prime will end up spending more time reloading than firing. So even with abilities that benefit both the same, the Latron Prime falls behind. Also also also also, the Latron Prime's recoil is significant. You will not be fanning the hammer as you would on lower levels. You would be aiming. Aiming takes time. Also also also also also, and yes I am still doing it, the Soma Prime would get much more out of Punch through mods as well, because it gets significantly more damage output in less time to more enemies,that the Latron spends reloading. So that's more enemies on noticeably lower health to fight in the same situation. The Simaralcum was the only thing keeping your argument afloat. Barely. Another 10 minutes added to the clock. No, I didn't count the alsos.

 

2 hours ago, Slaviar said:

Don't start this discussion about aiming again. You were already proven wrong on it.

If by proven wrong you mean you think aiming is a vital, difficult skill when literally every shooter game since Doom and like 2 guns in the game literally requires you to, then yes, I've been proven wrong. It's not as simple as pointing the gun at something and clicking, but it's still pretty bloody simple, and does not take that much practice to become reasonably adept in. Some weapons, ones with low mags, like the Latron Prime, need to be aimed more than others. Ones with large mags. Like the Soma Prime. The punishment for missing using a Latron Prime is much more severe than with the Soma Prime, because 1/15 I'd bigger than 1/200.

 

2 hours ago, Slaviar said:

You've missed most important part, which is <40 lvl mobs are trivial for veteran with maxed mods and gear. You were proven wrong again so you convieniently ignored it.

That is the problem I was trying to outline. How is it that I am wrong when that is the problem? It is trivial because you make it trivial. I said that. Right there. It's above. I explained why. I explained how. I explained why it was a problem. Yet here we are again, having the same discussion. Again. Another 15 to the clock. 

 

2 hours ago, Slaviar said:

Very disrespectful and unconstructive of you, 

I expect it looks that way when you cut the rest of the post out like it isn't there. And I know you're going to say that I do the exact same thing, but that's not what I do. I don't leave out parts of your arguments. I break them apart into their main points, and address each in turn. I don't leave them out like you did. So put back on that mark for intellectual dishonesty that you took off,because quote mining and cherry picking is wrong. 

 

2 hours ago, Slaviar said:

Especially considering that amount of your posts and date of joining point towards you almost living on this forum. I wonder if you even play Warframe anymore.

And now we step entirely off the bridge of discussion into the realm of ad hominem. What do you hope to accomplish with this? Nothing. Nothing but petty validation that I am just a troll on the Internet. It's not that you're wrong or anything, it's that he's trolling! Well I don't care for it. Put up or shut up. Discuss civilly and properly,  or leave. That is what these forums are for, and that is how you will participate. Your choice. Several have made theirs already. Join them if you wish. 

 

2 hours ago, Slaviar said:

Funniest thing is I've written constructive post earlier on. You didn't even bother to respond.

Because they were constructive. The OP knows what he wants better than I do, and he has dealt with you accordingly. What am I supposed to do type the same thing he did over? Quote him and put "what he said" or "yeah!" or some other childish comment at the bottom? I had nothing to add, so I didn't. When you stopped bring constructive, then I had something to add. When you disagreed with something the OP said with a fallacy or red herring, then I had a problem with it. When the OP him/herself didn't have an understanding or didn't know of something that he could have included in his comment to you or others, then I stepped in.   Then when you responded to me, the ball was in my court. If I didn't agree with you and simply posted "I don't agree with you Ur gunna ruin gaem" you would have an issue with it. So I didn't. Simple as that. 

 

2 hours ago, Slaviar said:

 I start to think you want all posters who don't agree with you to leave so you make them walk in circles, talking about same thing over and over and over again until they become frustrated, state they are and stop responding

Once you start assuming motives for the discussion, you're no longer open to discussion. They walk themselves in circles because they have no argument. There are plenty of people in this thread I disagree with who didn't. Chipputer, CM-Emptiness, and the OP himself. But they brought their points and I brought mine, we had a row at it, and we sorted it out through talking. Chipputer still doesn't agree with the OP, but that doesn't make your arguments any better. They are the same thing, thread after thread after thread after thread, making the same circular arguments, misunderstanding the same concepts and repeating the same mistakes. You can disagree with me if you like. Just make sense while you're at it. 

Edited June 30, 2016 by TheBrsrkr
Really forums??? Really??? How do I even fix this

[Fuzzy-Bunny]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

So I've read your post, and even though what you say is logical, it's not how warframe is designed. If you consider enemy levels, nightmare missions are around level 30, which is right where warframe level cap off. This is an indicator that level 30 enemies are suppose to challange level 30 warframes. Bringing a level 30 warframe with level 30 weapons (no potatoes or auras), I can see the challenge imposed. It's weak , but there. Here's where things get tricky. Warframes have something we call potatoes. This essentially doubles our level by doubling our capabilities. On top of this, we have forma and auras. These just keep adding to our effective level. Our warframe level may be 30, but our effective level, or "EL" is 60+. Auras add 10-18 capacity, adding to our capabilities and forma add even more. Discounting forma, our effective level is 60-78 depending on build. It makes sense that sorties and raids start right at this level. Adding forma has also made these enemies beneath us, but warframe is not suppose to be about enemies at our level. We are magical space ninjas that fly around is faster than light ships, splitting armored space marines with swords like they're tomato cans and pinning heavy enemies to walls with bows and throwing knives. No enemy can ever match us, unless you have nullifying capabilities, in which case, please leave the game. You're ruining my ninja. We should have SOME dominion over our enemies.

Yes, potatoes and forma is what drastically increases tenno capabilities, but I wouldn't consider mod points to be equal to our level. The usefulness of a certain build depends on equipping the right mods. I'm also not sure you understand how enemy level scaling even works. Level 100 enemy deals 5x damage than a level 30 enemy. We don't really have a way to boost our EHP that much other than tanking frames with direct abilities that help in tanking. This means that our survivability depends on preventing the enemy from dealing damage or using skills like bless to help with tanking. Making common levels with level 100 enemies won't solve anything, because our defense was never meant to withstand that kind of damage. This results in squishy frames dying in a few or even a single hit which makes the game very unforgiving and directly contradicts your tenno dominion thinking. You also seem to discount tenno synergy that enables us to fight insane enemy levels by virtue of doing ridiculous damage. Things like reaching 5+ hours in T4 survival.

They were killing enemies level 3500+. You were saying tenno were balanced around level 90-100? Not with cheese!

2 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

I know this may seem off topic, but I believe that this is the reason why we believe players are too powerful. We just haven't been playing at our level yet. Sorties imposing weird requirements and nullifiers do NOT quantify as matching player level because they're open to counterplay, which devolves into the idea of cheesing missions. Playing the game to your level is not equal to limiting player capabilities. That is a Challange. Nullifiers, sortie requirements and other obvious counterplay tactics do not balance enemies for advanced players, they ruin it. I guarantee, that if we had more missions that start at higher levels, we'd see less problems with overpowered players.

Yeah, you just ignore that players have the ability to spam to their hearts content at that level and then expect DE to remove the one thing that provides any sort of defense against our cheese. Your solution would be to just scale enemies further, which would then devolve into complete cheese fests since players couldn't afford to get hit and enemies would have no defense against our ability spam.

My suggestion would reduce the player damage and ability spam and suddenly you wouldn't need level 100+ enemies to be challenged and you'd never get into a situation where: you're oneshot from full health, get your energy drained by an enemy you can't even see and have your abilities nullified. The level is bull any way, since all it does is scale stats and increases the number of eximuses.

[Slaviar]

1 hour ago, TheBrsrkr said:

-snip-

Fix post before talking to me

 

[Chipputer]

5 minutes ago, Slaviar said:

Fix post before talking to me

Or spend about... all of two seconds trying to read it. But nah. Gotta be like that.

[(PSN)AllEyezOnThee]

Balancing warframe is the only solution, I see people saying that if we had higher enemy start missions overpowered players wouldn't be an issue but you forget how at that point enemies start shredding your warframe if you don't cc spam/god mode/cheese.

Warframe revolves around being level 30. With level 30 health and shields - we don't scale up as missions get harder the longer you play (ex:defense and survival).

We need to balance the game around that level 30 (even mods) to get the fullest out of every frame and weapon.

Again, posted this suggestion a lot .. I know. But this idea below is a form in which I hope players understand and have an open mind about. This idea is up for tweaks but this is my rough idea of an ideal warframe.

 

1. Hard cap enemy level to 40 (while keeping players at 30 the same). enemies at 0-10 for beginners, 10-20 for intermediate, 20-30 for advanced, and 30-40 for high end/challenging content. 40+ (at that point good luck difficulty) for endless missions so players at some point will be forced to leave or die. Enemy health/damage scaling will be linear and AI will be more difficult as level increases.
2. Readjust frames, weapons, companions to be viable for new enemy levels and level cap. Elemental mods, damage type mods will convert weapon damage into that specific type instead of a pure damage bonus. (example: 100 damage sword with 60% shocking touch mod creates 40 damage and 60 electric damage - making it still a good build for corpus).
3. Remove all pure damage mods (serration, pressure point, etc) and implement them into the weapons and pets so as the player levels - so does their damage. (The increase in damage to level goes with idea 2's statement).
4. Remove warframe ability mods intensity, streamline, stretch, and continuity and keep and expand the corrupted mods (having an advantage/disadvantage in return for a specific type of playstyle focus for players).
5. Add damage/power/movement bonuses for skillful plays/combos/teamplay.

Skill and experience will be required against levels 30-40 enemies as they are tougher and hopefully more intelligent. 

Energy planning will be necessary for dire situations -- to not catch yourself drained when in a pinch. Mods should be introduced to give energy to the player for completing combos and skillful maneuvers (headshot, consecutive headshots, weak point kills, etc).

This would be the start for an ideal warframe that gives players the most options, challenge, and fun.

[(PSN)dA_BLoK_iS_hOt]

On 6/15/2016 at 6:07 AM, Alma_Elma said:

I'd like you to complete 3 sorties with your following criteria. If you can't, do a T4 survival run for 60 minutes (40 if you're gonna do it solo).

1. No damage boost mods on your weapons. Physical or critical. Multishot can be included, but you can't mount ammunition mods to simulate your ideal "double ammunition" idea. Because we can't simulate your elemental idea; you're allowed to use LV2 elemental mods or dual stat elemental mods as a substitute.

2. No efficiency mods or Trinities in your group. Get other frames do to your healing or use life strike. And they must be meeting the same criteria as above.

3.Video you and your squad trying to complete the challenge I've laid out.

4. If you manage to win, I'll take your ideas seriously. Otherwise, have fun getting wrecked by the Eximi by the 20 minute mark/second sortie because of this game's unholy scaling system and see why a certain level of cheese is needed in this game to progress.

This pretty much sums it up for me. OP cannot be serious with this post. So many things have been reworked. So much was taken away from us already or changed. Cannot tell you how many times I put 6 formas on a weapon only for it to get nerfed. This happened countless times. There aren't too many endgame primary weapons left in the game. The OP's ideas is wrong on so many levels. 

[Chipputer]

46 minutes ago, (PS4)dA_BLoK_iS_hOt said:

Cannot tell you how many times I put 6 formas on a weapon only for it to get nerfed. This happened countless times.

Has it, now?

Has it really?

Your vague language tells me otherwise.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

2 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

Has it, now?

Has it really?

Your vague language tells me otherwise.

who cares anyway... (certainly not EULA). also the amount of drama because of an hour or so spent on draco... "oh noes".

[Rex13568]

I am honestly surprised this thread has not been closed others have been for less much less.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

On 6/30/2016 at 4:37 PM, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

Yes, potatoes and forma is what drastically increases tenno capabilities, but I wouldn't consider mod points to be equal to our level. The usefulness of a certain build depends on equipping the right mods. I'm also not sure you understand how enemy level scaling even works.

I've actually done a lot of research into enemy scaling, and it seems to be what I say. The increase in enemy levels is somewhat related to the amount we're able to upgrade our equipment. Think of how much we're able to upgrade our gear once we include reactors and other equipment. From rank 0 to a 5 forma boltor prime, I can increase my dps by 60x for a capacity of around 76 with no forma, and that's by far not the best build. I've watched level 1 grineer deal 2-3 damage with their weapons, and then a level 72 grineer lancer (simulacrum) was dealing around 150 damage. A level 110 (my present level cap) was dealing around 220 per hit. This scaling seems interestingly similar to the amount of damage increase we are allowed to do for our weapons. Since our rank 1 weapons are a little more powerful than their rank 1 weapons, this indicates that we are suppose to have a some amount of dominion over our enemies at our level. As I said before, most of the time, we are not playing enemies that are at our level. If we did, we'd be getting a clearer picture on where our warframes stand in comparison to enemies.

You're complaining about enemies going from easier than cannon fodder (level 30)  to extremely difficult (level 100) using the same maxed out frame. While this sounds like a logical complaint, it's not accurate. Play enemies at level 60 to 70 and you'll see that it's neither too difficult, nor necessarily easy. It feels just right. That's because it's where the enemies are suppose to be for our maxed out frames. Past that, the enemies are getting higher than our level. Then, it starts becoming a huge challange and it's really an endurance test at that point. A level 30 enemy is trivial for a warframe who's Effective Level is more than double that. Funny enough, I brought in a rank 0 warframe with rank 0 weapons and played missions on mercury. For some reason, it felt very similar in terms of difficulty to fighting level 60-70 enemies with my maxed gear. Coincidence?

On 6/30/2016 at 4:37 PM, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

Level 100 enemy deals 5x damage than a level 30 enemy. We don't really have a way to boost our EHP that much other than tanking frames with direct abilities that help in tanking. This means that our survivability depends on preventing the enemy from dealing damage or using skills like bless to help with tanking. Making common levels with level 100 enemies won't solve anything, because our defense was never meant to withstand that kind of damage. This results in squishy frames dying in a few or even a single hit which makes the game very unforgiving and directly contradicts your tenno dominion thinking.

I'm not sure you understand how warframe classes work. Raising EHp  to match enemy damage scaling is ONLY the job of the tank, not every warframe. A DPS frame or cc frame doesn't raise their EHp to take enemy hits when they can slow down time, go on a stealth kill rampage, and cross dimensions. The reason we don't really have the ability to boost our Hp to the point of enemy scaling is many things. Warframes are a LOT more mobile than enemies are, to the point that we're dodging bullets and latching onto walls. Every warframe also has unique powers that balance out a deficiency when tackling enemies. Most DPS frames don't take much damage or debuff enemies, but they can dish out more damage than any enemy could ever dream of, and that's their job, to out-damage the enemy. CC Frames don't tank much damage or deal much damage, but it's not their job either. They're role is to debuff enemies. They don't need to take high level gunfire when they can turn that enemy into target practice. Tanks neither debuff enemies or deal tons of damage, besides the use of weapons. What they do is soak of all the damage enemies throw at them. They draw attention and gunfire, out-lasting the enemy.

So while squishy frames are weaklings when it comes to high level content, it's balanced with the fact that they are quite powerful when it comes to offense. Tanks are the only class that are able and should be able to raise their ehp to match enemies in order to soak up all the damage enemies throw at them. It's all quite balanced. You just have to play at your warframe's level so see this and play them to their purpose.

On 6/30/2016 at 4:37 PM, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

They were killing enemies level 3500+. You were saying tenno were balanced around level 90-100? Not with cheese!

Synergy to this extreme is the result of patch work from DE, adjusting frames based on community complaints. The combination of "OP pls nerf" and "So-n-So sucks pls buff" posts have manipulated frames to the point that "unique traits" added to keep the community happy opened up abilities to combine certain powers with certain traits that make eachother a WHOLE lot more powerful. Reworking powers is the only way to fix this, only if it really NEEDS fixing. Honestly I see no problem in utilizing teamwork to accomplish to extreme. It's a true testament to the power of teamwork, but if you insist on balance, then DE will have to work on the power's FUNCTIONS, not output. Making it stay the same with less power will not solve the problem. For example, Banished Mesa will always be a turret no matter how you nerf or buff her power output, but changing the functioning mechanics of mesa and limbo will allow them separately to be just as powerful, while not being overkill together.

On 6/30/2016 at 4:37 PM, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

 

Yeah, you just ignore that players have the ability to spam to their hearts content at that level and then expect DE to remove the one thing that provides any sort of defense against our cheese. Your solution would be to just scale enemies further, which would then devolve into complete cheese fests since players couldn't afford to get hit and enemies would have no defense against our ability spam.

My suggestion would reduce the player damage and ability spam and suddenly you wouldn't need level 100+ enemies to be challenged and you'd never get into a situation where: you're oneshot from full health, get your energy drained by an enemy you can't even see and have your abilities nullified. The level is bull any way, since all it does is scale stats and increases the number of eximuses.

There are very few abilities that are able to be spammed and are effective at that level. Only one I can really think of is Ash Bladestorm and that's getting reworked, so no. Even though spamming powers would be a problem if it were possible, at the level of a maxed out warframe, an enemy to match our level would not be spammable. You're suggestion would not help anybody, because it would be the same situation present, just at a lower level. Cheese would be even MORE extreme because now in order to reach those levels, you have to use cheese tactics and synergy only. You can't just say "reduce ability spam" without considering the repercussions on regular gameplay. Nullifiers and parasitic eximus are as I said, CHALLENGES. They provide us with extra challenge, even though their intended purpose to to get enemies to match our level of power, which I've explained in my first post how that is just wrong.

My apologize if this was too long. You said a lot, and this kind of topic opens up a world of theories and mechanics that have to be addressed when considering any sort of adjustment.

Edited July 3, 2016 by (PS4)Crixus044

[Fuzzy-Bunny]

6 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

I've actually done a lot of research into enemy scaling, and it seems to be what I say. The increase in enemy levels is somewhat related to the amount we're able to upgrade our equipment. Think of how much we're able to upgrade our gear once we include reactors and other equipment. From rank 0 to a 5 forma boltor prime, I can increase my dps by 60x for a capacity of around 76 with no forma, and that's by far not the best build. I've watched level 1 grineer deal 2-3 damage with their weapons, and then a level 72 grineer lancer (simulacrum) was dealing around 150 damage. A level 110 (my present level cap) was dealing around 220 per hit. This scaling seems interestingly similar to the amount of damage increase we are allowed to do for our weapons. Since our rank 1 weapons are a little more powerful than their rank 1 weapons, this indicates that we are suppose to have a some amount of dominion over our enemies at our level. As I said before, most of the time, we are not playing enemies that are at our level. If we did, we'd be getting a clearer picture on where our warframes stand in comparison to enemies.

That's simply due to Damage/ health asymmetry between players and enemies. Yes, we're not supposed to play against our equals, but that's also why there are so many enemies to begin with. Just because enemies at certain level can deal a lot of damage doesn't make them our equals in any respect. You also fail to note how our weapon damage
scales WAY out of proportion compared to our warframes.

6 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

You're complaining about enemies going from easier than cannon fodder (level 30)  to extremely difficult (level 100) using the same maxed out frame. While this sounds like a logical complaint, it's not accurate. Play enemies at level 60 to 70 and you'll see that it's neither too difficult, nor necessarily easy. It feels just right. That's because it's where the enemies are suppose to be for our maxed out frames. Past that, the enemies are getting higher than our level. Then, it starts becoming a huge challange and it's really an endurance test at that point. A level 30 enemy is trivial for a warframe who's Effective Level is more than double that. Funny enough, I brought in a rank 0 warframe with rank 0 weapons and played missions on mercury. For some reason, it felt very similar in terms of difficulty to fighting level 60-70 enemies with my maxed gear. Coincidence?

Again, you fail to realize the gameplay complexity that warframe powers add to the mix. Going to mercury with 0 rank frame means NO ability use. That's very different then going against level 100 enemies and spamming Mprime and radial disarm and then picking them off at point blank range. The weapon damage is also completely different. You say that you've done research? Level 100 enemy deals 20x damage than level 1 enemy and the difference in EHP is 750X(grineer lancer).

6 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

I'm not sure you understand how warframe classes work. Raising EHp  to match enemy damage scaling is ONLY the job of the tank, not every warframe. A DPS frame or cc frame doesn't raise their EHp to take enemy hits when they can slow down time, go on a stealth kill rampage, and cross dimensions. The reason we don't really have the ability to boost our Hp to the point of enemy scaling is many things. Warframes are a LOT more mobile than enemies are, to the point that we're dodging bullets and latching onto walls. Every warframe also has unique powers that balance out a deficiency when tackling enemies. Most DPS frames don't take much damage or debuff enemies, but they can dish out more damage than any enemy could ever dream of, and that's their job, to out-damage the enemy. CC Frames don't tank much damage or deal much damage, but it's not their job either. They're role is to debuff enemies. They don't need to take high level gunfire when they can turn that enemy into target practice. Tanks neither debuff enemies or deal tons of damage, besides the use of weapons. What they do is soak of all the damage enemies throw at them. They draw attention and gunfire, out-lasting the enemy.

Warframe doesn't really have classes like most RPG's. All warframes have access to the same weapons and mods so most differences between warframes are only revealed once they are able to use abilities. There is no real tank in warframe that would go in the room first and draw fire off his team. There is no need for that in warframe because our CC abilities render enemies completely powerless. Instead of a Rhino charging in a room and drawing fire to his iron skin, you have a rhino dashing in the middle of a room and using stomp, Or excal and blind, or loki disarm,... "tanks" are only used in high level play for reviving fallen tenno.

So a DPS frame like Mesa can't take much damage with her 95% DR? Excal can't take much damage with EB auto parry and can't debuff enemies (blind?!?)? Tanks can't debuff enemies? So what the hell is Rhino stomp supposed to be? I'm not sure you're really playing warframe at this point.

6 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

So while squishy frames are weaklings when it comes to high level content, it's balanced with the fact that they are quite powerful when it comes to offense. Tanks are the only class that are able and should be able to raise their ehp to match enemies in order to soak up all the damage enemies throw at them. It's all quite balanced. You just have to play at your warframe's level so see this and play them to their purpose.

Why should enemies have a drastically higher EHP than warframes? What is your justification? Because a grineer degenerate clone or corpus mass produced moa having more EHP than space ninja warframe S#&amp;&#036;s all over the lore and "common sense". The only reason why their EHP is that high is in order to be able to last a second against our OP weapons and abilities.

6 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

Synergy to this extreme is the result of patch work from DE, adjusting frames based on community complaints. The combination of "OP pls nerf" and "So-n-So sucks pls buff" posts have manipulated frames to the point that "unique traits" added to keep the community happy opened up abilities to combine certain powers with certain traits that make eachother a WHOLE lot more powerful. Reworking powers is the only way to fix this, only if it really NEEDS fixing. Honestly I see no problem in utilizing teamwork to accomplish to extreme. It's a true testament to the power of teamwork, but if you insist on balance, then DE will have to work on the power's FUNCTIONS, not output. Making it stay the same with less power will not solve the problem. For example, Banished Mesa will always be a turret no matter how you nerf or buff her power output, but changing the functioning mechanics of mesa and limbo will allow them separately to be just as powerful, while not being overkill together.

 You obviously didn't watch the video I linked in the original response to your post. What they did wasn't really teamwork, they just sat in a bubble spamming sonar and other abilities while enemies came like lambs to the slaughter and in order to sustain that kind of play they kept spamming countless restores. 

6 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

There are very few abilities that are able to be spammed and are effective at that level. Only one I can really think of is Ash Bladestorm and that's getting reworked, so no. Even though spamming powers would be a problem if it were possible, at the level of a maxed out warframe, an enemy to match our level would not be spammable. You're suggestion would not help anybody, because it would be the same situation present, just at a lower level. Cheese would be even MORE extreme because now in order to reach those levels, you have to use cheese tactics and synergy only.

Lol, you can't be serious. You blatantly disregard game mechanics in order to make them balanced in your head. Level scaling doesn't change enemy behavior or adds ability resistance, it just changes their stats. Ability spam isn't only possible at higher levels, it's NECESSARY and freely available. 

6 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

You can't just say "reduce ability spam" without considering the repercussions on regular gameplay. Nullifiers and parasitic eximus are as I said, CHALLENGES. They provide us with extra challenge, even though their intended purpose to to get enemies to match our level of power, which I've explained in my first post how that is just wrong.

The "repercussions" can easily be imagined and tested. Simply take off your fleeting expertise, don't use a lot of restores, don't use EV trin and don't use zenurik's energy overflow. Basically what newbies work with. Would you say that game isn't balanced for newbies because they can't spam abilities without limit?

You and some other people have a rather twisted sense of challenge. Thinking that gimping yourself or having enemies debuff you is the way challenges are supposed to work. Do you see athletes running with their legs tied? The point of challenge is facing of against your enemy at your best, not having your enemies degrade you to their level. If this wasn't so there wouldn't be all the gear progression and levels.   

[DatDarkOne]

35 minutes ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

The "repercussions" can easily be imagined and tested. Simply take off your fleeting expertise, don't use a lot of restores, don't use EV trin and don't use zenurik's energy overflow. Basically what newbies work with. Would you say that game isn't balanced for newbies because they can't spam abilities without limit?

I don't use Fleeting Expertise.  Don't use any restores.  Play mostly solo, so no Trinity at all.  I can also get by without using Zenurik in missions.  Can even do all this without using Prowl.  It will be slower in pace.  That's fine with me, because I like that type of playstyle.  Only thing this really would do is stop "run and gun" type gameplay as it is now.  Pretty much how it is in some sortie and nightmare missions.  Again, this wouldn't effect my play style or frame of choice.  It could and would change things for others with a possible detrimental effect to players as a whole.  This might not sit to well with a lot of the players.  Just something to think about in regards to "repercussions" using the guidelines you posted.   

P.S.  My statements are from trying to look at the issue and suggestions from both sides.

Edited July 3, 2016 by DatDarkOne
added content

[Fuzzy-Bunny]

1 hour ago, DatDarkOne said:

I don't use Fleeting Expertise.  Don't use any restores.  Play mostly solo, so no Trinity at all.  I can also get by without using Zenurik in missions.  Can even do all this without using Prowl.  It will be slower in pace.  That's fine with me, because I like that type of playstyle.  Only thing this really would do is stop "run and gun" type gameplay as it is now.  Pretty much how it is in some sortie and nightmare missions.  Again, this wouldn't effect my play style or frame of choice.  It could and would change things for others with a possible detrimental effect to players as a whole.  This might not sit to well with a lot of the players.  Just something to think about in regards to "repercussions" using the guidelines you posted.   

P.S.  My statements are from trying to look at the issue and suggestions from both sides.

I realized from the beginning that my suggestions would slow the pace, but that's intended since warframe has basically devolved into a race to the objective ATM. When even level 100 assassination sorties are merely rush to the boss and get out, you know you've got a problem on your hands.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

4 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

That's simply due to Damage/ health asymmetry between players and enemies. Yes, we're not supposed to play against our equals, but that's also why there are so many enemies to begin with. Just because enemies at certain level can deal a lot of damage doesn't make them our equals in any respect. You also fail to note how our weapon damage
scales WAY out of proportion compared to our warframes.

Again, you fail to realize the gameplay complexity that warframe powers add to the mix. Going to mercury with 0 rank frame means NO ability use. That's very different then going against level 100 enemies and spamming Mprime and radial disarm and then picking them off at point blank range. The weapon damage is also completely different. You say that you've done research? Level 100 enemy deals 20x damage than level 1 enemy and the difference in EHP is 750X(grineer lancer).

 

I'm gonna retort this one by one. Yes I've not only done enough research to start a class, but my clan and I work intensely on teaching new players all about enemy scaling. It's really all on the wiki, but what I do to verify the stats and theories is take pure puncture damage boltor prime, count each tick of damage, add up the amount of damage is took to kill, respawn enemy, use covert lethality to see max health, calculate armor and damage mitigation accordingly. I know EXACTLY how enemy scaling works. With this knowledge and knowledge on how we are able to max out our weapons, I stick to my point with it. Warframe upgrades and Enemy scaling have similar progress, and it's important that we make decisions based on how we perform against enemies at our level. When I say rank 0 warframe, I actually mean rank 30 with no mods or auras, so excuse my mis-grammar. but my point remains.

4 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

Warframe doesn't really have classes like most RPG's. All warframes have access to the same weapons and mods so most differences between warframes are only revealed once they are able to use abilities. There is no real tank in warframe that would go in the room first and draw fire off his team. There is no need for that in warframe because our CC abilities render enemies completely powerless. Instead of a Rhino charging in a room and drawing fire to his iron skin, you have a rhino dashing in the middle of a room and using stomp, Or excal and blind, or loki disarm,... "tanks" are only used in high level play for reviving fallen tenno.

So a DPS frame like Mesa can't take much damage with her 95% DR? Excal can't take much damage with EB auto parry and can't debuff enemies (blind?!?)? Tanks can't debuff enemies? So what the hell is Rhino stomp supposed to be? I'm not sure you're really playing warframe at this point.

Why should enemies have a drastically higher EHP than warframes? What is your justification? Because a grineer degenerate clone or corpus mass produced moa having more EHP than space ninja warframe S#&amp;&#036;s all over the lore and "common sense". The only reason why their EHP is that high is in order to be able to last a second against our OP weapons and abilities.

Warframes don't exactly have classes to choose per say, but they do have strengths. These strengths utilize one of the four aspects of character classes, healing/support, tank, cc, and dps. If you play this game, you can definitely see these differences. A banshee CANNOT take a single bullet, but Atlas definitely can. Inaros can take many bullets.They are tanks even without using abilities. Rhino is known as a CC/Tank, thus has aspects of both, through iron skin and rhino stomp as well as high shields and armor. Mesa is a tank only when it comes to stopping bullets, of which she can be classified as a Tank/DPS. Equinox is a Healer-Support/CC or DPS/CC depending on if she uses her day form or night form. Loki is.....loki. Nekros is Healer-Support/CC. Valkyr, Chroma, and Wukong can be considered pure tanks because even though they dish out a lot of damage with their powers, it's their tank abilities that are most prominent and their damage abilities are not as powerful as the real dps frames like ash and ember or saryn. Banshee is pure CC. She cannot take a single hit and her abilities don't really deal much damage, unless you count augments. Excalibur is an all-rounder since he's the balanced frame. He has higher armor than rhino, EB is great DPS and nice tankiness (only frontal direct damage, but still), and great cc. He should have a healing/support abiltiy, but I guess that would be a little too much, so maybe not ALL-rounder, but most. It's his game description. He's the jack-of-all-trades frame, which is why he's great for beginners.

I think you should really stop making plain assumptions and try thinking ahead. Enemies don't just increase EHP/Damage. Eximus have powers very similar to warframes ,and eximus spawn rate increases with mission level. So yes, enemies do gain EHP and Damage, but also enemies gain powers to the point that all you see are snowglobes and fire blasts. Discounting Eximus, enemies can only gain EHP and Damage because that's all they have. They can't increase their movement speed because that would be an all out headache for players, and I REFUSE to have more nullifiers. As I said before, that's an imposed challenge. Enemies can only gain powers through eximus, and they only have one weapon. What else do they gain? Health and damage is all they can improve on, thus the reason for their scaling.

4 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

 You obviously didn't watch the video I linked in the original response to your post. What they did wasn't really teamwork, they just sat in a bubble spamming sonar and other abilities while enemies came like lambs to the slaughter and in order to sustain that kind of play they kept spamming countless restores. 

I watched the video. You do know what synergy is right? Synergy means combining two frames to cover eachother's drawbacks. Banshee is squishy, hello frost. Team needs more damage, hello banshee. I've seen many videos of people doing missions this long and not only surviving, but thriving. The synergy between frost and banshee is amazing and your video shows that. She's a necessity for any 3+hour survival. I can name 10 more synergies off the top of my head that would let me do missions this long. I did a 4 hour t4 survival with Hydroid Undertow-Nova Antimatter Drop synergy. This proves what I said, not discredits it.

 

5 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

Lol, you can't be serious. You blatantly disregard game mechanics in order to make them balanced in your head. Level scaling doesn't change enemy behavior or adds ability resistance, it just changes their stats. Ability spam isn't only possible at higher levels, it's NECESSARY and freely available. 

I have not disregard anything. I simply state fact. Changing enemy behavior has nothing to do with what I was talking about. Abilities that can be spammed at high level require an efficiency build, a lot of restores, or EV Trinity. While I do believe restore usage must be cut, spamming abilities is honestly not a problem, because being able to spam an 'm ability without going energy bankrupt is only viable via efficiency, which trades off improvements of other aspects like duration or whatever mods you would've put in it's place. I'm going to recommend that you play a mission level 70 or higher and tell me what you think can spammable and what should be done with it, then you can talk to me about what to do with spamming.

5 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

The "repercussions" can easily be imagined and tested. Simply take off your fleeting expertise, don't use a lot of restores, don't use EV trin and don't use zenurik's energy overflow. Basically what newbies work with. Would you say that game isn't balanced for newbies because they can't spam abilities without limit?

You and some other people have a rather twisted sense of challenge. Thinking that gimping yourself or having enemies debuff you is the way challenges are supposed to work. Do you see athletes running with their legs tied? The point of challenge is facing of against your enemy at your best, not having your enemies degrade you to their level. If this wasn't so there wouldn't be all the gear progression and levels.   

If your suggestion is to nerf efficiency builds, support frames like Trinity, and focus schools, I would ask to reconsider.
Think about it like this.An example would be :A "newbie" has a power that deals 100 damage pure second to an enemy over the duration of 10 seconds for 100 energy. Maxing efficiency will allow him to cast it 4 times, but will reduce duration to 5 seconds. so instead of dealing 1000 damage (100x10) he will deal 500 damage (100x5), but casting 4 times will make it worth the sacrifice because in the end, the damage is doubled. Downside is time it takes to cast and mod costs. It takes two mods to do this and 19 capacity. At the same rate, maximizing duration will cost 3 mods and 43 capacity. Plus side is that you will deal almost triple damage over time, but at with a cost of some range and mod capacity. So either you double your damage over time, or triple it at the cost of range and capacity, which forma can fix the latter. In application, an enemy that takes 6000 damage to bring down, using only this power, will cost 300 energy for an efficiency build, while a duration build will cost around 200, but the duration build needs more capacity as well as range. With these trade-offs, I do believe how you build your frame balances out in the end, just whatever suits your playstyle best.

The rest of your comment  is pure opinion. I disagree and I can prove otherwise, but I'm going to disregard for the sake of remaining on topic. I don't disagree with the fact that limiting player performance, by "gimping" them like you said is wrong, but that's my definition of challenge. The problem this game has is mixing up challenge with enemies at player levels.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

On 6/30/2016 at 1:51 PM, DatDarkOne said:

This suggestion is without a doubt one of the best ever mentioned.  It's simple and could resolve a lot of issues without changing how we play.  Nicely worded too. 

Thank you. I'm glad others agree with me.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

On 6/30/2016 at 1:36 PM, (PS4)IrSchm33 said:

this is so beautiful that i had to read it 3 times over , this is just YES ! yes to every second of what im reading , lets make a planet at the lvl we want , lets make T5 with starting lvl 50-60 enemies ( without adding ANOTHER damage multiplyer to enemies  x4 is enough ) the challenge exists for me and a large number of players, my only issue is waiting for 45min ina T4 survival just to get enemies to start being what i want. more high lvl "end game " content rather then Swing the nerf bat our way. i agree with previously stated comments the feeling of being overpowered , and the ability to use your powers when you want, these are aspects i enjoy and keep me having fun, limiting my access to powers is not acceptable and would drive me to another game, Quickly 

Lol exactly. The more content we get, the more cluttered the missions become. There's a steady stream of power creep in theis game, that will not be matched until we get higher level missions to match our increased power. Nerfing our power will just destroy the missions we already play.

[Fuzzy-Bunny]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

I'm gonna retort this one by one. Yes I've not only done enough research to start a class, but my clan and I work intensely on teaching new players all about enemy scaling. It's really all on the wiki, but what I do to verify the stats and theories is take pure puncture damage boltor prime, count each tick of damage, add up the amount of damage is took to kill, respawn enemy, use covert lethality to see max health, calculate armor and damage mitigation accordingly. I know EXACTLY how enemy scaling works. With this knowledge and knowledge on how we are able to max out our weapons, I stick to my point with it. Warframe upgrades and Enemy scaling have similar progress, and it's important that we make decisions based on how we perform against enemies at our level. When I say rank 0 warframe, I actually mean rank 30 with no mods or auras, so excuse my mis-grammar. but my point remains.

I respect your testing dedication, but I still disagree with your point. How does your player scaling / mod point analogy include different warframe builds as well as compatibility with an opposing faction and finally player skill?

Ah so your rank 0 = 30 got it. Still, I can't see the comparison between level 0 and high end since there is no skill spamming without efficiency mods, restores, zenurik, EV...

1 hour ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

Warframes don't exactly have classes to choose per say, but they do have strengths. These strengths utilize one of the four aspects of character classes, healing/support, tank, cc, and dps. If you play this game, you can definitely see these differences. A banshee CANNOT take a single bullet, but Atlas definitely can. Inaros can take many bullets.They are tanks even without using abilities. Rhino is known as a CC/Tank, thus has aspects of both, through iron skin and rhino stomp as well as high shields and armor. Mesa is a tank only when it comes to stopping bullets, of which she can be classified as a Tank/DPS. Equinox is a Healer-Support/CC or DPS/CC depending on if she uses her day form or night form. Loki is.....loki. Nekros is Healer-Support/CC. Valkyr, Chroma, and Wukong can be considered pure tanks because even though they dish out a lot of damage with their powers, it's their tank abilities that are most prominent and their damage abilities are not as powerful as the real dps frames like ash and ember or saryn. Banshee is pure CC. She cannot take a single hit and her abilities don't really deal much damage, unless you count augments. Excalibur is an all-rounder since he's the balanced frame. He has higher armor than rhino, EB is great DPS and nice tankiness (only frontal direct damage, but still), and great cc. He should have a healing/support abiltiy, but I guess that would be a little too much, so maybe not ALL-rounder, but most. It's his game description. He's the jack-of-all-trades frame, which is why he's great for beginners.

 The point I made was that any frame can use any weapon and there are no positions like there are in RPG's. You don't see a tank entering a room first or support frames lagging behind others. Not because players refuse to, but because it's not necessary. Enemies will either be too CCed or dead to need any real tanking and I generally find most warframe "classes" to be blurry at best which is only made worse by augments.

1 hour ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

I think you should really stop making plain assumptions and try thinking ahead. Enemies don't just increase EHP/Damage. Eximus have powers very similar to warframes ,and eximus spawn rate increases with mission level. So yes, enemies do gain EHP and Damage, but also enemies gain powers to the point that all you see are snowglobes and fire blasts. Discounting Eximus, enemies can only gain EHP and Damage because that's all they have. They can't increase their movement speed because that would be an all out headache for players, and I REFUSE to have more nullifiers. As I said before, that's an imposed challenge. Enemies can only gain powers through eximus, and they only have one weapon. What else do they gain? Health and damage is all they can improve on, thus the reason for their scaling.

Yes, eximuses also scale in anti player cheese, but that's still only a statistical change. They don't change in behavior, because as you have said they can't. That's why I'm saying that forcing the "normal" level higher will not improve the game in the long run since higher levels tend to make the game very binary. You're either dead or at full health, you're swimming energy or you're running dry,... It doesn't really require any more skill to play than at lower levels since the behavior remains the same, it's just more unforgiving to mistakes and forces player to use cheese.

Why would reducing player damage be worse compared to scaling enemies further and further?

1 hour ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

I watched the video. You do know what synergy is right? Synergy means combining two frames to cover eachother's drawbacks. Banshee is squishy, hello frost. Team needs more damage, hello banshee. I've seen many videos of people doing missions this long and not only surviving, but thriving. The synergy between frost and banshee is amazing and your video shows that. She's a necessity for any 3+hour survival. I can name 10 more synergies off the top of my head that would let me do missions this long. I did a 4 hour t4 survival with Hydroid Undertow-Nova Antimatter Drop synergy. This proves what I said, not discredits it.

So picking the right build and knowing Ability synergies is the height of skill in warframe? Is sitting in a bubble spamming skills your idea of a "skilled" game?

1 hour ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

I have not disregard anything. I simply state fact. Changing enemy behavior has nothing to do with what I was talking about. Abilities that can be spammed at high level require an efficiency build, a lot of restores, or EV Trinity. While I do believe restore usage must be cut, spamming abilities is honestly not a problem, because being able to spam an 'm ability without going energy bankrupt is only viable via efficiency, which trades off improvements of other aspects like duration or whatever mods you would've put in it's place. I'm going to recommend that you play a mission level 70 or higher and tell me what you think can spammable and what should be done with it, then you can talk to me about what to do with spamming.

How is ability spamming "not a problem"? Are disarmed, slowed, blinded enemies supposed to be challenging? How would they challenge you? By spamming radial abilities and sapping your energy?

1 hour ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

If your suggestion is to nerf efficiency builds, support frames like Trinity, and focus schools, I would ask to reconsider.
Think about it like this.An example would be :A "newbie" has a power that deals 100 damage pure second to an enemy over the duration of 10 seconds for 100 energy. Maxing efficiency will allow him to cast it 4 times, but will reduce duration to 5 seconds. so instead of dealing 1000 damage (100x10) he will deal 500 damage (100x5), but casting 4 times will make it worth the sacrifice because in the end, the damage is doubled. Downside is time it takes to cast and mod costs. It takes two mods to do this and 19 capacity. At the same rate, maximizing duration will cost 3 mods and 43 capacity. Plus side is that you will deal almost triple damage over time, but at with a cost of some range and mod capacity. So either you double your damage over time, or triple it at the cost of range and capacity, which forma can fix the latter. In application, an enemy that takes 6000 damage to bring down, using only this power, will cost 300 energy for an efficiency build, while a duration build will cost around 200, but the duration build needs more capacity as well as range. With these trade-offs, I do believe how you build your frame balances out in the end, just whatever suits your playstyle best.

I posted the math on why modding for efficiency is most efficient. Your only example is a specific skill that does damage over time. What about all other abilities? I'm sure you're well aware that a whole lot of abilities are perfect for high efficiency and benefit far more from spamming then they do from any other attribute.

 

[(PSN)AllEyezOnThee]

This old post will explain, show, and prove why the current system of warframe is not healthy and needs a revision. While different from the OPs proposal in terms of reform and execution - it's still basically the same in terms of how to balance warframe and make it an experience for many players with many play styles to choose from.

 

Its a long post and will take time to read, but it will give you the solution warframe needs.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

13 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

I posted the math on why modding for efficiency is most efficient.

I like this sentence lol Just the wording. I do agree that efficiency is key to most abilities.

13 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

Why would reducing player damage be worse compared to scaling enemies further and further?

Having higher level enemies in higher level missions effectively does reduce damage or at least effectiveness. If you reduce player damage/effectiveness, it may take f.e. 5 bullets to kill an enemy in a certain mission. How about instead of reducing the damage, you increase the enemy level, so that it will still take 5 bullets/hits to kill? Why nerf players, when you can just raise enemy level to match our power? This will make players feel more accomplished and will fix a whole lot of problems with players feeling overpowered. The only mission designed for maxed out warframes are raids. Bringing a warframe that's built for raids into a regular mission trivializes it. Highest level star chart enemies is around 45. Raid enemies are almost double that and scale up to 100. That margin is much too large. Warframes that are still unnecessarily more powerful will be balanced accordingly, but nerfing players is not the answer.

13 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

Yes, eximuses also scale in anti player cheese, but that's still only a statistical change. They don't change in behavior, because as you have said they can't. That's why I'm saying that forcing the "normal" level higher will not improve the game in the long run since higher levels tend to make the game very binary. You're either dead or at full health, you're swimming energy or you're running dry,... It doesn't really require any more skill to play than at lower levels since the behavior remains the same, it's just more unforgiving to mistakes and forces player to use cheese.

I have never been one-shotted by a level 72 enemy with any frame. They may take off your shields and some health, but unless they're snipers and shotgunners, even banshee could take a hit or two. If you're either full on energy or completely dry, you must be A. not building the frame to your best capabilities for your playstyle B. over-spamming abilities or C. not playing with a good team. You must be talking about level 100 level enemies and so on, which I would agree the enemies are much harder the the warframe and are above the warframe's level, which even though missions would scale into that range, it really doesn't make a difference, since that's where players want to get to anyways when it comes to endgame playing. Players go hours into t4 survival just to fight those level 100+ enemies, so why have them wait?

A maxed out tenno should not have to wait 45 minutes to be challenged from the same enemies they've been fighting from when they were still ranking up. Once you max out your gear, you should be ready to hit level 60-70 enemies from the start. For example, Banshee players know how to solo endgame with her, because even though she is great for damage, she's extremely squishy, but I've soloed banshee in t4 for 1 hour 30 minutes. Enemies where in the level 150 range. Much much higher than my warframe's capabilities. After that, i couldn't keep up with their overwhelming numbers and I had to extract, but it felt good being able to be challenged. The way it was and always has been for banshee, either I get hit and die, or they get hit and die. I can stun them to get the drop on them, and that helps, but after level 175, I wasn't killing them fast enough to maintain life support and stay alive at the same time, Granted the twin grakata aren't the best weapons for her, I had the rakta cernos to maintain not only high killing potential, but to give me energy with it's syndicate proc. Wukong is my go-to for t4 and I also extracted with him after 1 hour and 50 minutes solo because A. I was bored and B. I wasn't killing enemies as fast as I wanted to. I also brought in my saryn prime to test out how she would do, and lo n' behold, I extracted after around 1 hour and 45 minutes. I was killing enemies up to level 200 easily, but surviving was getting harder and I really didn't want to have to struggle since I already had a headache

What I concluded from  the mission was that even though a warframe may not be on the same level as the enemies you are fighting, success is still possible, but up to a certain point. I also learned that every warframe has a give and take. Also, for people who don't want to wait an hour for enemies to get to there level, having missions that start at higher levels is most logical, and thus the reason why I conclude that higher level mission is a necessity over nerfing players to match the enemy levels present.

Nullifiers are my only bane in any mission and I believe they should only be reserved for sortie missions and nightmare raids, where extra challenges are asked for. Other than that, I don't see any problem with higher tier missions for higher tier players.

13 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

So picking the right build and knowing Ability synergies is the height of skill in warframe? Is sitting in a bubble spamming skills your idea of a "skilled" game?

Knowing how to build your warframe and understanding the mechanics of warframes to the point where you can use synergies is a skill. It is amongst the many skills in game i.e. accuracy, parkour, making builds, and teamwork. Being extremely skilled at building warframes for your playstyle and using your knowledge to synergize with other teammates lets you do crazy stuff like using hydroid undertow to rack up enemies while a nova charges her antimatter drop for a mass nuke. This technique worked with my team for enemies in the thousands of levels. We went 4 hours in apollodorus until one of our teammates (ash prime nonetheless) fell asleep at the controller, so we extracted. Being skilled in warframe isn't just about the builds, but getting the right build for a team or for solo is essential to progress  Also being able to use parkour to your advantage and being accurate with your weapons and melee is essential to survival in missions where the enemy out-classes you. Sitting in a bubble spamming skills is a skill in ultimate teamwork. It may not be fun, but it works. If you want to go that route, go ahead. I'm gonna be having fun with my Wukong while my friends use Banished Blades techniiques.to be good.

The problem in the end is the enemies we fight. They are too low. Improvements done to your warframe should be felt in missions that don't require a wait time.

Edited July 4, 2016 by (PS4)Crixus044

[Otaiken]

For the last time: Serration (and other base damage mods) are ACCOUNT LEVEL damage progression. All the suggestions say the same thing "Just make damage level with the weapons!". Oh yeah? So by the time I level my MK1-Braton I have the base damage progression of completing the starchart and beyond.

Make weapons level slower? So we would have to completely rework the current mod system, because it really doesn't take into account you having to level one weapon for hours, with or without damage mods.

So can the remove base damage mods cultists now provide a real thought-out alternative of how exactly you intend to keep this account progression without simply offloading it onto the equipment? Give me a call when you do please. And don't try to lock it into mastery rank, that would be incredibly dumb solution.

And if you disagree with account damage progression in general, well then just agree to disagree.

Yes I know I'm arguing a single point here, but it's starting to annoy me. "Pfff just level the weapons, EZAY, dumb DE could've done that years ago!"

Best suggestion on this I've found so far was the Serration Variants suggestion, but even then you would have the most efficient options as the universe inevitably tries to reach balance in this entropy.

Edited July 4, 2016 by LocoWithGun

[(PSN)Onder6099]

Dear @Fuzzy-Bunny, don ´t forget Frames and Arsenal are Overpowered thx to us, We are those, who are puting Potatoes and Formas, maxing Mods, making best builds focused only for 1-2 abillities, while Frames have 4. Why? Because it ´s a part of this game and it ´s normal human property to be the best. If u r not agree, just  don ´t do that and play with base stats, without any upgrade, nobody will punish u for that.

[Golden.Eyes]

And I thought the guys on the Steam forums were delusional.

Stop asking for nerfs and instead ask for things that are underpowered to get buffed. Players are going to do like electrical current, and go with the path of least resistance.

If Multishot gets nerfed, we will find a way to supplement for it. If damage up mods get nerfed, we will account for it.

It does not matter what DE or antifun activists like you do.

Time and time again it has been proven in other MMOs, the playerbase will find a way to be overpowered and there is nothing that can be done.

Edited July 4, 2016 by Rubastax

[Chipputer]

55 minutes ago, Rubastax said:

antifun activists

Hilarious.

"I don't agree with you so I'm going to label you with this thing that's inherently negative and leaves no room for you to explain your, actual, nuanced opinion, in my head."

If you don't agree, state why. Don't label people that you don't agree with. You'll end up like that kid who ran around calling the people who called for the Tonkor to get rebalanced the, "nerf brigade," whilst he ignored 50 pages of tests, arguments, and statistical evidence that it was the actual outlier.