Who do you think is the most poorly designed frame so far?

[RealPandemonium]

52 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

snip again

So what is well-designed about Loki?  That he has an incentive to use all of his powers?  Nevermind that only two are used with regularity and they are used in an exploitative manner.  

All of your complaints about the "frames that can't even do their job" are symptoms of overtuned enemies in ill-thought-out game modes liek Sorties/Raids where enemy levels are so high they break the game's fundamentals.  

Your argument boils down to "the game incentivizes trivialization of gameplay, so Loki is well-designed while others fall short of this impossible standard."  You then point out several abused gimmicks and then claim that Loki's gimmicks are not gimmicks.  

If anything you have derailed the thread.  I got back on track saying that the problem is systemic and can't be addressed properly on a case-by-case basis anymore, and your response was to continue shilling for Loki while denouncing other popular exploit frames and slinging mud at unpopular ones.  

This thread was a waste of space in the first place, though.  Polling the opinions of players might help to give DE some insight but most of the time it ends up as an uninformed mish-mash that promotes ignorance and sentiments that go against progress.  

Edited June 22, 2016 by RealPandemonium

[tripletriple]

Just another day of trying to pretend loki is overpowered. You really need to stop spreading your misinformation in every thread you can. 

It's universally accepted that Loki is the pinnacle of balance. Everything under loki is considered under the point of balance. 

His invisibility is easily countered by stray bullets or him shooting at enemies since they shoot in the general vicinity.

His radial disarm doesn't stop enemies. The proof is in every game played by loki ever. He doesn't make the squad invincible and I think many will agree there is a dozen other frames that support better than he can. But don't let me stop you.

[RealPandemonium]

3 minutes ago, tripletriple said:

Just another day of trying to pretend loki is overpowered. You really need to stop spreading your misinformation in every thread you can. 

It's universally accepted that Loki is the pinnacle of balance. Everything under loki is considered under the point of balance. 

His invisibility is easily countered by stray bullets or him shooting at enemies since they shoot in the general vicinity.

His radial disarm doesn't stop enemies. The proof is in every game played by loki ever. He doesn't make the squad invincible and I think many will agree there is a dozen other frames that support better than he can. But don't let me stop you.

Good for a laugh, as always.  Loki is the pinnacle of EZmode.  He is well-suited for those accustomed to playing though single player games with cheats enabled, but is detrimental to the game's health on the whole due to the ability to trivialize missions for his teammates as well as himself.  

[tripletriple]

1 minute ago, RealPandemonium said:

Good for a laugh, as always.  Loki is the pinnacle of EZmode.  He is well-suited for those accustomed to playing though single player games with cheats enabled, but is detrimental to the game's health on the whole due to the ability to trivialize missions for his teammates as well as himself.  

And yet he has been in the game since beta and never had he once, been a detriment to the games difficulty or a top priority to run any mission. 

In fact Loki was considered a weaker warframe for the longest time. It's only when infested went away was he considered good, because of the large amount of grineer missions that we now had.

But I know you'll keep playing pretend, and imagine these non existent scenarios, where loki is the god of warframe.

[MacabreHaze]

7 minutes ago, tripletriple said:

Just another day of trying to pretend loki is overpowered. You really need to stop spreading your misinformation in every thread you can. 

It's universally accepted that Loki is the pinnacle of balance. Everything under loki is considered under the point of balance. 

His invisibility is easily countered by stray bullets or him shooting at enemies since they shoot in the general vicinity.

His radial disarm doesn't stop enemies. The proof is in every game played by loki ever. He doesn't make the squad invincible and I think many will agree there is a dozen other frames that support better than he can. But don't let me stop you.

Nah man, he's totally OP. 

running around, he's capable of getting the enemies to attack each other, tricking them at every corner. Every moment that he walks, he's actively manipulating the world around him being able to become invisible or look like a fairly easy target standing there making noise. In a moment he could disappear with enemies dragging them out into the void to have them suddenly disappear with his illusions and other magics. 

He can pretend to cut off your hand, pretend to be your dad, your mother, your sister or perhaps even you. He can recieve a beating that pounds him into the ground, but it was just a trick, he's alright because he's immortal and invincible all the time. He can even get others to become more powerful and more capable, even make it so that they can appear in two places at the same time, as two different people, despite what studios say. 

He is after all a god, and a frost titan, with a super powerful gem in a stick that he used to use as some sort of power amplification device until he was nerfed by nerf herders. Of course its been a few years since he's been dusted off a bit and updated for the newest releases, so we're likely gonna see him buffed. 

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

what makes a well designed frame?

well, a balanced kit of skills (ideally with some synergy potential) and stats to go well with those, naturally. so to determine a frame's design quality i'd first and foremost ask myself: am i using its entire kit frequently? have all the skills a proper use and do they help my survivability and dps/support/"role" potential in an adequate manner?

with that in mind i sadly have to say the really good examples are the minority.

my personal bottom of the barrel is probably valkyr though. i feel she is incredibly dull to play and only really about that one skill that turns you invincible. second place would probably go to ash.

 

edit: omg how could i forget trinity? XP

Edited June 26, 2016 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[Azamagon]

3 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

So what is well-designed about Loki?  That he has an incentive to use all of his powers?  Nevermind that only two are used with regularity and they are used in an exploitative manner.  

All of your complaints about the "frames that can't even do their job" are symptoms of overtuned enemies in ill-thought-out game modes liek Sorties/Raids where enemy levels are so high they break the game's fundamentals.  

Your argument boils down to "the game incentivizes trivialization of gameplay, so Loki is well-designed while others fall short of this impossible standard."  You then point out several abused gimmicks and then claim that Loki's gimmicks are not gimmicks.  

If anything you have derailed the thread.  I got back on track saying that the problem is systemic and can't be addressed properly on a case-by-case basis anymore, and your response was to continue shilling for Loki while denouncing other popular exploit frames and slinging mud at unpopular ones.  

This thread was a waste of space in the first place, though.  Polling the opinions of players might help to give DE some insight but most of the time it ends up as an uninformed mish-mash that promotes ignorance and sentiments that go against progress.  

First of all, chill with the hostility.

For me, a well designed character doesn't mean if they are weak, balanced or strong (as that is often just a numerical issue). No, a well designed character is indeed mainly a character that has all skills that are all useful but also has:

* Kit Synergy
* Kit Versatility
* Kit Reliability
* Smoothness of use
* Helpfulness to the team
* Power stat scaling (all 4 power stats used)

. Generally, that means NO Warframe is truly well designed. The closest, imo, are Rhino, Loki and Ivara. Possibly Mag and Volt too now after their revamps.

* Rhino, when I think about it, is probably the best designed of them all. All 4 skills have distinct uses: Mobility, Durability, Empowerement, CC. Only real issues I can really say are: Roar is not recastable, Iron Skin is not endable early and Iron Skin is the only one not using all 4 stats (Range does nothing unaugmented). Maybe he is a bit simplistic, but really, everything has a clear use and not a single skill is overly niched or useless.

* Loki has amazing synergy and versatility with all his skills. Main issues: Invisibility (in general) is a tad too strong in this game (not a direct problem with Loki), Radial Disarm is permanent (which is just insane), Switch Teleport has overly niched uses, Power Strength is 100% a dumpstat and not all skills are affected by all stats. But as a conceptual design, his kit is generally very well put together.

* Ivara is highly versatile and quite synergetic. Problems: Similar to Loki, not all skills are affected by all stats and both Navigator and especially Noise Arrow are on the overly niched end of things. At least her invisibility slows her down (but the anti-parkour restriction is, imo, a dreadful thing, i hate it so much!) to make her less OP.

* Volt is getting there though. Shock and Speed are both great. Discharge could need some minor fixing but is otherwise great as well. Electric Shield is great too, but the mobile version has far too many restrictions. Overall though, he is actually very well done, I'd dare to say maybe even one of the best designed ones? (I think the main reason I feel this way these days is because of the newly added mobile ES, as it now has direct synergy with Speed, which is great).

* Mag is also getting there. Polarize needs a better role (imo, it should focus more on debuffing) and Crush could need some more interactivity / versatility (like, at the end of cast, you can also choose to toss enemies by holding your fire button, or slam them all together by holding your aim button (or vice versa)). The Shrapnel could also get more interactivity with Pull and Crush. Otherwise, not too shabby now.

I used to say Frost was well designed, but the more I think about it, his kit is in a littlle bit need of help: Avalanche and Globe are both a bit too good while (unaugmented) Ice Wave and Freeze are too weak and lacking a bit of purpose (especially Ice Wave).

Edited June 23, 2016 by Azamagon

[ZeroLiger]

On 6/19/2016 at 6:09 AM, Futurehero said:

For my last couple of posts I brainstormed some reworks for Nova, Ash's ult and Ember.  I think that's enough productive feedback for a while, so let's have a thread where we just complain about bad design. 

So who do you think is the most poorly designed Warframe as of now ? By poor design I mean gameplay, stats, visuals , whatever you want !

For me it's got to be Ember. She's a glass cannon frame who is supposed to be a damage monster but due to her skills not scaling, she ends up endgame as a stun-bot. Also, despite being squishy, she has  3 abilities that are point-blank AOE, so she needs to be surrounded by enemies to maximize their effects. AND even though her skills don't scale in damage, when they do hurt, she is completely brainless to play and has 0 interaction. Her ultimate could literally be called "Fire and Forget".  

 

 

Valkyr ult. I mean Ash is bad too but atleadt he's a glass cannon. You get tanky, then indestructible. Only reason it's even allowed is cause it's a PVE game (same goes gor Ash).

[CrimsonDalekanium]

4 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Let me explain with the criterias I mentioned:

* Kit Synergy - Chroma only has synergy with his #2 and #3 (if you use Ice or Electric for defense or Toxic for offense. Heat is quite lackluster though). His #4 is even dissynergetic with his tankiness: Not only does it remove half his armor, it also distracts enemies which makes it harder for him to max Vex Armor (although, it can give him breathing room + the speed allows for him to be more offense, I'll give it that). #1 is just bad all over, synergy-wise included :/

* Kit Versatility - While he has POTENTIAL versatility, as you said yourself, he can't do squat about that midmissions, which is what really counts. In terms of versatility, his skills are, well, decent at least, so that's not his main issues. And they are all quite different enough, so that's ok too.

* Kit reliability - #1 has RNG wether you get procs or not, #2 with some elements has RNG wether they take place or not, #3 is reliable, #4 is not entirely reliable due to it being a randomly attacking decoy + pretty much adds a gambling bonus (credit boost). So not only is his #3 (and #2) the strongest numerically, it is also the only truly reliable ability. No wonder people mainly mod for that huh? :)

* Smoothness of use - #1 is bad all over here, #2 could use onehanded casting, #3 is ok (although I personally feel it gets very repetitive and tedious to use due to how it works and due to how "simple" it is) and #4 has that annoying self-stagger-esque interruption when it is unsummoned. He is NOT ok in this regard (mostly due to #1 and #4 though)

* Helpfulness to the team - He can tank and deal nice weaponbased DPS, sure. But to make him a buffer, you have to use the Elemental Ward bandaid augment to make it workable. Most importantly at least: He is not detrimental / trolly to the team.

* Power stat scaling - Power range is downright a dumpstat (as DE seem to be acknowledging, considering his EW augment >_>), which is bad design. All Warframes' abilities should be affected by all stats, otherwise Corrupted mods can turn into no-brainers. Furthermore, his ulti's energydrain is certainly designed with Corrupted mod's power efficiency capabilities in mind, which is part of what makes it even more bleh.

And about the passive, I completely agreed. If Chroma could swap elements midmission (say, by holdcasting his #2 or something?) then MAYBE I could agreed with DE that the elemental colour thing is his passive. Maybe.

Please remember this though, what I said originally: " Note: Wether they are STRONG is irrelevant "
And due to his #3 mainly, Chroma is most certainly not weak. But his ability kit design, imo, is really bad (not Limbo-levels of bad, but still not great)

Add to it this completely subjective and rather unimportant opinion: I also think Chroma is among the absolute ugliest of all Warframes. He is too "damp" and ... I dunno, wrinkly(?) for my tastes. He doesn't say "dragon" to me at all. More like "seamonster covered in algae" imo :P

I put an arcane guardian salix syandana on chroma, his drac helm, prisma daedalus armor, black for main, black with red accents and energy for armor, and ofc whatever energy color you prefer on chroma. 

His heat makes him a solid tank for mid-level missions, and can be used as an emergency heal in surv missions. It applies a heat proc fairly consistently to enemies near you too.

Chroma isn't clunky to use once you get used to it, it's nearly impossible to troll with, and it doesn't have any glaring weakness. If you can't handle casting 2 abilities every minute or so, go play Frost. Seriously, with a 55 second uptime on both abilities, you need to cast abilities as often as most perma-invis Loki's. Go cry me a river. 

Not that it's relevant, but I usually play a five forma rejuv ice chroma with sancti tigris, staticor, and prisma dual cleavers with the syndicate mod and lifestrike, along with a medi-ray and shield restore carrier. I can deal crazy high damage, tank nearly anything consistently below level 90 or so, heal what damage I do take, and I get about 55 seconds of uptime per cast of 2 and 3. With zenurik, that's more than enough. The only thing I usually need to worry about are scorches, nullifiers, and mutalist ospreys LITTLE FLYING HITLER gassing everything. 

I'd say that Chroma has one of the worst designs if you haven't put any work or thought into it, but none of his powers are obviously broken. His 1st does lock you into walking slowly toward an enemy with a short ranged attack that doesn't deal reliable damage, but other than that, his powers are good, just not applicable in every situation like loki, nova, or frost. Chroma also doesn't have a "press 1,2,3,4 to win" . He has one ability that might even be considered CC (his 4th). He's one of only 2 or 3 warframes that gives you a reliable turret (if you count Nyx and Inaros), and if your pelt is in a position so that it gets attacked first, you can shoot the bejeezus out of whatever is attacking it. Pelt also has a short range short duration CC ability.

Tl,DR: Chroma is basically a more difficult Rhino 2.0. Upgraded, harder to use, still don't have all of the kinks worked out.

Edited June 23, 2016 by CrimsonDalekanium

[Enno69]

23 hours ago, tripletriple said:

 

It's universally accepted that Loki is the pinnacle of balance. Everything under loki is considered under the point of balance. 

  But I know you'll keep playing pretend, and imagine these non existent scenarios, where loki is the god of warframe.

Cue the amounf of "Loki masterrace" threads I've seen on the forum, and the common answer when someone asks advices for Spy or Rescue : "Loki cheeses everything".

Loki is not the best balanced frame out there by a large margin. Powerful, sure, but not balanced. Do you ever use his 1 and 3 ? Is there any drawbacks to a permanent invisibility build ? Do you consider RD as anything less than a press2trivialize form of CC against all but one faction ?

Ivara really is the pinnacle of balance, or almost.

[(XBOX)TheRoflLizard]

By Kit-Wukong. His stuff is a cluster of none gelling ideas which from a Functioning,but kind of steched together frame. 

 

By actual design in (works as intended)-Loki,Overrated, overblown,overhyped. His skills to cheese are infamous, his master race is obnoxious and by design he is a very selfish anti-team player frame.  Out of his self saving invis he sometimes uses to save others. His kit is all about cheesing running away, and to a Loki even If they are the guy playing horsy on your keys. He still acts like he is the star of the show. Tons of misinformation is spread on him.  And the truth is, he is one of the easiest frames to play If you have a brain and know how invisibility works. But worst of all, is his build paths. Selfish prick or Guy who gets his team killed with Radial disarm. And everytime someone brings him in a mission where he cant run off and let other people get beat on or bombs are going off, you have to pick him over and over and over. I had to pick up Loki some many times during the Excutioners events final boss, I feel,like I should of got a medal of honor. I hear people throw around the word (Selfish frame) a lot. But, none of them talk about Loki, usually because the person plays Loki and is whining cause someone did not pick them up in the rare case they got downed because Loki thought It would be funny either to swap with someone doing something or Radial disarm which for some odd reason is ten times worse then getting shot with guns cause grieener be night sticking you bro! Honestly, never seen are more #$&(%/needy class in a game.

 

 

[CrudShuzKong]

Trinity. By far.

She is the worst because she just trumps all other frames in 3 roles of gameplay... best healer, best team damage reduction and best way of restoring energy.

And on top of that she has faster revives.

Edited June 24, 2016 by CrudShuzKong

[(PSN)Nyxn607]

1. Zephyr - Least useful skills since the new parkour update.

2. Limbo - is basically just a troll frame.  All he does is make himself or others unkillable and also unable to hit anything else.

3. Oberon - Not good at anything.

4. Hyroid - Ditto

5. Nekros - Needs more synergy in his kit.

[Oishii]

I was going to say Limbo, but some people brought up good points that some of the worst designed frames are some of the best as they are 100% complete cheese and tend to rely on one or 2 abilities to trivialize the game. In the end I will still have to go with Limbo as he often the team troll.

[(PSN)Yodunheim]

Trinity primes shoes, that is all.

[Kairo-Kuraku]

Limbo for sure

He could used a total makeover (regardless if people say his abilities only need to be tweaked) the devs need to take a step back and set concrete rules for him then design abilities to fit them. He's probably got the most inconsistent rules out if everyone. 

Nekros could be next he really doesn't do anything good, he has no decent crowd control abilities or any real support abilities except for farming same thing can go for hydroid.

But let's be honest most of the Warframe do need to be really looked at for better gameplay in my opinion because either they are too strong or they are too useless but this is all in my opinion so take it with a grain of salt

Edited June 25, 2016 by Kairo-Kuraku

[(XBOX)Omni X Dragon]

There are lots of frames that use could tweaking here and there, but very few that have "dead" skills or an entire lackluster kit. I feel that only frames that need a hard look at because all their abilities fall short or just outright suck are: 

1. Equinox 

2. Oberon

3. Limbo

 

Limbo may be clunky and awkward but he is playable to an extinct in his role. As-is, some Limbo players have very little to complain about, I think he just has a high learning curb. But Oberon and Equinox are just terrible as a whole. Oberon can be built to be nearly immortal with quick thinking and rage and renewal, but why that doesn't really feel like that's what he was designed for.  His 2 should be a duration that gives a flat armor bonus. Renewal should not turn off when players reach full health (why the hell did they make that augment without fixing the duration on renewal?) and no longer drain energy. His 1 is just like Ember, Volt, etc so I don't see it needing rework. I think Reckoning should prime targets that cause burst of healing. Why does it blind and cause radiation? Think about the timing.

 

Equinox... needs more than a rework, maybe a complete kit overhaul? She has about 5 other frame abilities but with less utility. She seems to be designed to be constantly changing forms but you end up building for one aspect or the other. Let's get to the big problem with her, Mend in night aspect, it does nothing but stack curative energy until you release it and doesn't grant over-shields? WTF?! It should be causing constant heals when enemies are killed and stacking then releasing should grant over-shields. Next is Maim with its super subpar damage, it only kills in low-tier and by mid-tier it ends up as a pseudo cc. So then we have Pacify and Provoke, Pacify drains way too fast, the tool-tip is confusing and HAS to be augmented to even be decent. Where-as Provoke drains no energy (?) but buffs power strength, capped at 50% (80% with the augment) making it her only decent skill. Rest and Rage aren't really that bad but require an augment to be useful or your forced to spam them on a frame that is already channeling 2 other abilities. Rest with covert lethality is fun and viable but, on Draco for example, targets will still hack panels and eventually Rest will transfer but no longer some enemies and will leave the Rest tethering all across the map making it hard to see who is actually sleep and who is bugged (obviously those running around are bugged). Rage is...decent but the speed boost is dumb, when your Day aspect your focus is offense, but you got targets with Rage they will take more damage but without CC they are likely to kill you before you kill them, the scaling is too high. At 100% bonus damage they get a 40% speed boost. Spova is only 30% and she hits the whole room and they explode. But like I said, almost all of Equinox's kit is a subpar rip from another frame. Some people complain about having to stay within her range to even get her mediocre buffso, but that is her design concept. It's not a bad concept, it was just poorly executed. DE probably thought since she had so many different abilities all rolled into one frame, that they should nerf their effects. She was intended to be a one stop shop but with reduced effects; I can understand that, but what happened is: if all other ripped abilities could be called Large Energy/Ammo/Shield pads, Equinox became small pads instead of Medium. And that's after you attempt to build for 1 specific ability out of 7.

 

I would say these two, mostly Equinox need a rework before Limbo who at least cancan be played. I can take Limbo into T4 defense or survival right now and still be viable and Sortie defense is where he shines.

[Thrymm]

On 6/20/2016 at 6:34 PM, Mak_Gohae said:

 

I'm not so sure about the Limbo and Hydroid hate.

Both are capable of extremely strong CC that will take any enemy out of the fight.  In both cases, this CC gets some hate for its clunkiness, Limbo for removing targets from other players, Hydroid from flinging them all over the place, but the fact remains that their CC is strong and manifests itself across their entire kit.

Both also have healing capabilities with augments, and both can become virtually unkillable, albeit at the cost of also not being able to attack.

Both have movement speed increases, Limbo while in the rift and Hydroid having a significant gap closer skill.

Both are capable of covering significant areas with these effects.

Nekros, by contrast, has a single target bolt(multiple if they line up just right), another CC that scatters enemies everywhere, an arm wavy that makes health globes with a miniscule chance at other loot upgrades, and summon what amounts to tentacles in terms of screen clutter with less damage or AE or CC.

In order to make desecrate a workhorse you pretty much have to build around it enough to inhibit factors that make the other things work.  In order for those things to sing, you need to dent your desecrate.  In order to utilize desecrate to its fullest you need to sacrifice massive amounts of your damage and other ability times, and if you build for any of his other abilities you could have done better with nearly any other frame.

But hey, let's try to make it a positive.  Nekros rework!

1.  Soul Punch.  When you punch their soul, rip that sucker out causing an explosion.  Blast proc and comparable damage.  Bam, handy CC/damage number one.

2.  Terrify would probably be all right if the rest of his kit didn't suck so much.  It's not great, but it DOES work.  Granting it potential synergies that an otherwise functional skillset would have would make it work, I think.

3.  Desecrate should lay down a floor patch, perhaps the size of the current desecrate.  If killed on that patch, enemies drop their standard double loot+health orb goodness.  On top of this, enemies on the patch take a viral proc or some such other insidious not damage but make them more killable goodness.  Perhaps make it a channel that radiates from Nekros, or make it a relatively long duration castable.

4.  These things are shadows of the enemies fallen comrades.  Make them proc fear on enemies hit, desecrate the ground around them for a small radius, and if they kill an enemy make it become a shade, with a new ability duration for that particular one.  Alternatively, on kill a shade resets its own duration, meaning that if they kill things they stick around.

 

So there, not wildly overpowered(as best I can see), but a Nekros that isn't a non-combatant with flaky side skills.  On top of that, outside of a desecrate rework to make it more interactive it's not a wild departure from his current kit.

[main_antagonist]

Valkyr bullet sponge mode ... I think even 99% dmg reduction would have been better than invulnerability why would they give her a passive life steal for hysteria but make her unkillable while it's active ... yes I'm aware of rage and quick thinking etc and to regain the health lost when using that to convert it to energy. Personally I don't like it at all, with stealth frames you don't die while invisible until hit so it balances out you know? 

[AKKILLA]

On 6/19/2016 at 7:09 AM, Futurehero said:

For my last couple of posts I brainstormed some reworks for Nova, Ash's ult and Ember.  I think that's enough productive feedback for a while, so let's have a thread where we just complain about bad design. 

So who do you think is the most poorly designed Warframe as of now ? By poor design I mean gameplay, stats, visuals , whatever you want !

For me it's got to be Ember. She's a glass cannon frame who is supposed to be a damage monster but due to her skills not scaling, she ends up endgame as a stun-bot. Also, despite being squishy, she has  3 abilities that are point-blank AOE, so she needs to be surrounded by enemies to maximize their effects. AND even though her skills don't scale in damage, when they do hurt, she is completely brainless to play and has 0 interaction. Her ultimate could literally be called "Fire and Forget".  

 

 

I have to say the poorest design in Warframe is infact

WARFRAME ITSELF!

These match making issues are disappointing.

Other then that I hate Hydroid, Limbo is Ok he needs a little somethng but this game is as good as its weakest link there for Warframe needs a Rework itself

 

[MacabreHaze]

On 6/23/2016 at 11:24 PM, (PS4)Nyxn607 said:

1. Zephyr - Least useful skills since the new parkour update.

2. Limbo - is basically just a troll frame.  All he does is make himself or others unkillable and also unable to hit anything else.

3. Oberon - Not good at anything.

4. Hyroid - Ditto

5. Nekros - Needs more synergy in his kit.

There is actually a surprising amount of Synergy with nekros in his current form. But you need two mods to start it up. Despoil and Equilibrium. Everything else can be whatever you need. 

Now Despoil takes one ability off the energy track and allows you to use health instead. Which allows you to take in health orbs. Health orbs are converted into energy as well based on equilibrium. 

This makes it so Desecrate can constantly keep your energy meter filled to power the supply of energy you need for Terrify and Shadows of the Damned. Shadows of the Damned can be  used to create corpses, to create health orbs, to create energy, to power shadows of the damned to create corpses, to create health orbs, to create energy... 

Using Terrify you can boost the effectiveness of your Shadows, by reducing the armor value of your enemies. And more enemies dead = More bodys to desecrate. 


If anything, Nekros's bad design is the fact he needs bodies to desecrate, which with increasing numbers of vaporizing weapons causes bodies to disappear a bit too fast. And his Shadows disappear when hit by a nullifier, making it just too easy for that ability to do nothing. 

[(XBOX)TheRoflLizard]

21 hours ago, (XB1)Dragonkid6 said:

There are lots of frames that use could tweaking here and there, but very few that have "dead" skills or an entire lackluster kit. I feel that only frames that need a hard look at because all their abilities fall short or just outright suck are: 

1. Equinox 

2. Oberon

3. Limbo

 

Limbo may be clunky and awkward but he is playable to an extinct in his role. As-is, some Limbo players have very little to complain about, I think he just has a high learning curb. But Oberon and Equinox are just terrible as a whole. Oberon can be built to be nearly immortal with quick thinking and rage and renewal, but why that doesn't really feel like that's what he was designed for.  His 2 should be a duration that gives a flat armor bonus. Renewal should not turn off when players reach full health (why the hell did they make that augment without fixing the duration on renewal?) and no longer drain energy. His 1 is just like Ember, Volt, etc so I don't see it needing rework. I think Reckoning should prime targets that cause burst of healing. Why does it blind and cause radiation? Think about the timing.

 

Equinox... needs more than a rework, maybe a complete kit overhaul? She has about 5 other frame abilities but with less utility. She seems to be designed to be constantly changing forms but you end up building for one aspect or the other. Let's get to the big problem with her, Mend in night aspect, it does nothing but stack curative energy until you release it and doesn't grant over-shields? WTF?! It should be causing constant heals when enemies are killed and stacking then releasing should grant over-shields. Next is Maim with its super subpar damage, it only kills in low-tier and by mid-tier it ends up as a pseudo cc. So then we have Pacify and Provoke, Pacify drains way too fast, the tool-tip is confusing and HAS to be augmented to even be decent. Where-as Provoke drains no energy (?) but buffs power strength, capped at 50% (80% with the augment) making it her only decent skill. Rest and Rage aren't really that bad but require an augment to be useful or your forced to spam them on a frame that is already channeling 2 other abilities. Rest with covert lethality is fun and viable but, on Draco for example, targets will still hack panels and eventually Rest will transfer but no longer some enemies and will leave the Rest tethering all across the map making it hard to see who is actually sleep and who is bugged (obviously those running around are bugged). Rage is...decent but the speed boost is dumb, when your Day aspect your focus is offense, but you got targets with Rage they will take more damage but without CC they are likely to kill you before you kill them, the scaling is too high. At 100% bonus damage they get a 40% speed boost. Spova is only 30% and she hits the whole room and they explode. But like I said, almost all of Equinox's kit is a subpar rip from another frame. Some people complain about having to stay within her range to even get her mediocre buffso, but that is her design concept. It's not a bad concept, it was just poorly executed. DE probably thought since she had so many different abilities all rolled into one frame, that they should nerf their effects. She was intended to be a one stop shop but with reduced effects; I can understand that, but what happened is: if all other ripped abilities could be called Large Energy/Ammo/Shield pads, Equinox became small pads instead of Medium. And that's after you attempt to build for 1 specific ability out of 7.

 

I would say these two, mostly Equinox need a rework before Limbo who at least cancan be played. I can take Limbo into T4 defense or survival right now and still be viable and Sortie defense is where he shines.

Equinox=Conditions to skills. It is not so much one side is stronger then the other as much as they need to tweak night to be very effective as day. Day is combat based skills so everyone is gonna fall in love with bleeding everyone. But, If you have a team I am sure night can work. I've used her heal to effect during runs. But, It seems the problem is you want Equinox's skill to be a grinder like other frames. But, Equinox is kind of a support mage so to speak.

 

Oberon=Is actually good and gets too much flack because people do not know how to use him.

 

Limbo=LImbo does what he does. Puts himself out of harms way or allies and is made more for missions with clear targets. You could technically use his skills for other means. And It is not like It does not clearly show his theme thou mods for him. He is about dragging enemies into his world and evening odds. I think he should get his skills to make Nuffilers not work on him. But,that is just me.

 

Overall, they are different breed of frame.