New Melee Weapon Concept - The Curaris

[ObviousLee]

Just now, Rehtael7 said:

Hm. Fair point on the Broken War. I still don't think the concept would really work out in terms of programming.

it would be a challenge, of that i'm sure. but just because it would be a challenge doesn't mean it isn't worth the effort to make the attempt.

if the concent we were getting in major updates weren't game changing at almost every interval what with new mechanic introductions as well as current content revamps, i wouldn't even consider posting such a complicated concept. but we have several dual purpose weapons as is. I just feel it's time we start hurling the enemies, instead of things AT them, yenno?

[Rehtael7]

1 minute ago, ObviousLee said:

it would be a challenge, of that i'm sure. but just because it would be a challenge doesn't mean it isn't worth the effort to make the attempt.

if the concent we were getting in major updates weren't game changing at almost every interval what with new mechanic introductions as well as current content revamps, i wouldn't even consider posting such a complicated concept. but we have several dual purpose weapons as is. I just feel it's time we start hurling the enemies, instead of things AT them, yenno?

But by that same metric, wouldn't the time spent trying to find a way to make this work be better spent on... ANYTHING else already in the game?

Also, Ragdolls are CLIENT-side, meaning the hit detection would be a disaster. On top of an animation nightmare due to the various sizes of enemies.

Edited July 2, 2016 by Rehtael7

[ObviousLee]

1 hour ago, Rehtael7 said:

But by that same metric, wouldn't the time spent trying to find a way to make this work be better spent on... ANYTHING else already in the game?

Also, Ragdolls are CLIENT-side, meaning the hit detection would be a disaster. On top of an animation nightmare due to the various sizes of enemies.

considering all one would need to do is staple something akin to the pegged to wall animations to the grasping mechanic, it wouldn't be "lets put this off till years from now because hard" levels of difficult. also, the weapon teams do just that - program and code weapons. it's not like they're working on pvp or the next big update, save for the items that fall into their respective workshops relating to said update. and if ragdolls being client side wouldn't be too much of an issue if they had an tiered hitboxes.

[ShadowFel]

Seems like an interesting idea for a weapon, although I would debate that attack speed.  Seems a little high for a weapon that has other ways of unleashing destructive potential.  That crit multiplier seems kind of high as well.  Also, while I like the idea of elementally imbuing the enemy, I'd prefer to see a system other than what Chroma has.  Chroma's little color-coordination is an interesting little mechanic, but it would lose its charm if applied to anything else.  (Some would say that it already lacks charm).  Also, since many people either leave weapons in their base appearance, or simply match them to their frame, I feel like this mechanic would go somewhat underused, when it could be more appreciated if it was tied to something else.  Not sure what that would be, though.

All in all, though, this sounds like an interesting and fun melee weapon, and the idea of mashing enemies into each other would be endlessly enjoyable.

[Rehtael7]

1 hour ago, ObviousLee said:

considering all one would need to do is staple something akin to the pegged to wall animations to the grasping mechanic, it wouldn't be "lets put this off till years from now because hard" levels of difficult. also, the weapon teams do just that - program and code weapons. it's not like they're working on pvp or the next big update, save for the items that fall into their respective workshops relating to said update. and if ragdolls being client side wouldn't be too much of an issue if they had an tiered hitboxes.

The programming department handles a variety of tasks. I'm sure they have more pressing matters than something that creates ragdoll interactions, which again would look more than slightly strange.

[ObviousLee]

Just now, Rehtael7 said:

The programming department handles a variety of tasks. I'm sure they have more pressing matters than something that creates ragdoll interactions, which again would look more than slightly strange.

assumptions are the birthing ground of mistakes. just saying. the point is, there is no reason to not implement something akin to this, in tandem with other advanced content.

Before hydroid was introduced there was a thread suggesting a similar power to his undertow and puddle, in which the responses were "there's more important stuff for the devs to yadda yadda yadda". arguments like that, as well as the "we already have this, so we don't need that" are honestly the most nerve shredding thing to me, because instead of wanting to expand off of what he wave and bring something actually NEW to the table, i get arguments saying there's no reason because _____takes precedence. I mean, if that were the actual case, then there wouldn't be any need for a fan concept section now would there.

[Rehtael7]

3 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

assumptions are the birthing ground of mistakes. just saying. the point is, there is no reason to not implement something akin to this, in tandem with other advanced content.

Before hydroid was introduced there was a thread suggesting a similar power to his undertow and puddle, in which the responses were "there's more important stuff for the devs to yadda yadda yadda". arguments like that, as well as the "we already have this, so we don't need that" are honestly the most nerve shredding thing to me, because instead of wanting to expand off of what he wave and bring something actually NEW to the table, i get arguments saying there's no reason because _____takes precedence. I mean, if that were the actual case, then there wouldn't be any need for a fan concept section now would there.

What reason? Limited time and resources. Developing a weapon which interacts with ragdolls (A client-side entity) and uses them as projectiles (meaning they'd need to have some type of collision detection worked into them) and raises multiple questions about how they behave as corpses for Nekros is likely less pressing of a matter than... well, anything I can think of. New frames? New Arsewangs? new PvP mechanics? New melee mechanics? Developing an entire function like this for ONE melee weapon which would undoubtedly be inferior to all other melee weapons doesn't make any sense.

Edited July 2, 2016 by Rehtael7

[ObviousLee]

10 minutes ago, Rehtael7 said:

What reason? Limited time and resources. Developing a weapon which interacts with ragdolls (A client-side entity) and uses them as projectiles (meaning they'd need to have some type of collision detection worked into them) and raises multiple questions about how they behave as corpses for Nekros is likely less pressing of a matter than... well, anything I can think of. New frames? New Arsewangs? new PvP mechanics? New melee mechanics? Developing an entire function like this for ONE melee weapon which would undoubtedly be inferior to all other melee weapons doesn't make any sense.

limited time and resources: if it's a back burner project, that isn't an issue. ragdoll effect: intended effect by the developers, therefore they'd know best how to implement it.

collision detection: because that doesn't exist already.... how they behave as corpses? well they aren't dead until you hurl them so there's that. one they're dead they behave like corpses do. they lay there. and get desecrated.

New frames archwings: nothing to do with weapon designing team.

new pvp mechanics: ties in with the weapons team. leave the balancing to them.

so of all the things you listed, there really isn't ANY issue.

also, undoubtedly be inferior to all other melee weapons? if you can help me understand how being able to take a heavy and turn half it's hp into a nuke that you throw like a freaking lunaro ball, as well as pick up any non boss enemy and use them as a weapon therefore negating any damage they could do, as "undoubtedly will be inferior to all other melee weapons" i'd deeply appreciate it.

Edited July 2, 2016 by ObviousLee

[Chity]

or maybe just make it a warframe ability. Warframe-exclusive weps are a big thing these days.

[ObviousLee]

15 minutes ago, julianattack said:

or maybe just make it a warframe ability. Warframe-exclusive weps are a big thing these days.

i'd prefer to not limit functionality of new mechanics strictly to a warframe, whereas a melee can be used by any.

[Rehtael7]

1 minute ago, ObviousLee said:

i'd prefer to not limit functionality of new mechanics strictly to a warframe, whereas a melee can be used by any.

Honestly it does make more sense being warframe specifc. Still doesn't mean I think it would be a good melee weapon, but if it has to be compared to any existing melee weapon, I have a hard time seeing its usefulness.

[ObviousLee]

Just now, Rehtael7 said:

Honestly it does make more sense being warframe specifc. Still doesn't mean I think it would be a good melee weapon, but if it has to be compared to any existing melee weapon, I have a hard time seeing its usefulness.

the idea is to broaden what defines a melee weapon in the future beyond being a lump of material you smack enemies with. we have plenty of primaries and secondaries with entirely unique mechanics to them, there is nothing whatsoever to say that it's not a good idea to take melee in the same directions and come out with some kooky stuff to use. and as far as not seeing it's usefulness, *hands pair of glasses* there you go, no go re-read the parts about using heavies to nuke entire crowds as well as have a pleasing melee weapon. also it kills stuff. a lot. so there's that.

[Rehtael7]

23 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

the idea is to broaden what defines a melee weapon in the future beyond being a lump of material you smack enemies with. we have plenty of primaries and secondaries with entirely unique mechanics to them, there is nothing whatsoever to say that it's not a good idea to take melee in the same directions and come out with some kooky stuff to use. and as far as not seeing it's usefulness, *hands pair of glasses* there you go, no go re-read the parts about using heavies to nuke entire crowds as well as have a pleasing melee weapon. also it kills stuff. a lot. so there's that.

We DO have gunblades and sword whips. I agree unique mechanics are good, but this particular unique mechanic I don't see being useful.

[ObviousLee]

2 minutes ago, Rehtael7 said:

We DO have gunblades and sword whips. I agree unique mechanics are good, but this particular unique mechanic I don't see being useful.

then why are you continuing to post? i placed very simple guidelines for posting, which you obviouslee(hue) didn't read. Overlord had some ideas that were counter to my own, but she abided by my request. So, although i appreciate the constant posting keeping my topic on the top of the list, it's a clutter and it's taking away from the actual topic. 

Repetitious posts boiling down to "i don't see the point", are waste of effort. 

If you cannot comprehend what's being presented even though it's been clarified several times, then please move on to less advanced concepts, instead of repeating yourself constantly. it wastes both your time, and mine.

[Rehtael7]

Just now, ObviousLee said:

then why are you continuing to post? i placed very simple guidelines for posting, which you obviouslee(hue) didn't read. Overlord had some ideas that were counter to my own, but she abided by my request. So, although i appreciate the constant posting keeping my topic on the top of the list, it's a clutter and it's taking away from the actual topic. 

Repetitious posts boiling down to "i don't see the point", are waste of effort. 

If you cannot comprehend what's being presented even though it's been clarified several times, then please move on to less advanced concepts, instead of repeating yourself constantly. it wastes both your time, and mine.

I don't have to follow your guidelines for posting. This is a public forum and I will express my thoughts as I please under the guidelines expressed by official staff.

It's not that I don't understand it, it's that I want you to see that this mechanic doesn't make any sense within the current landscape of Warframe.

[ObviousLee]

1 minute ago, Rehtael7 said:

I don't have to follow your guidelines for posting. This is a public forum and I will express my thoughts as I please under the guidelines expressed by official staff.

It's not that I don't understand it, it's that I want you to see that this mechanic doesn't make any sense within the current landscape of Warframe.

you're not going to get me to consider being able to 100% lockdown any non boss unit, use it as an impromptu melee weapon, charging it up with whichever element of choice you so desire, and using 50% of it's hp as a radial bomb, (to do what ALL weapons do:kill enemies) doesn't make sense. or do you not know what acid shells does?

[Rehtael7]

5 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

you're not going to get me to consider being able to 100% lockdown any non boss unit, use it as an impromptu melee weapon, charging it up with whichever element of choice you so desire, and using 50% of it's hp as a radial bomb, (to do what ALL weapons do:kill enemies) doesn't make sense. or do you not know what acid shells does?

I know it's not really fair to compare any melee weapon to Prisma Cleavers or Fragor Prime, but that's just the state of things. And like I've been saying, getting the attack to actually work would be a challenge of its own. It's such a very specific thing to add to an existing melee type that already has its own stance. Why lockdown an enemy when I could be instead locking them down AND killing them for less effort and in less time?

[ObviousLee]

2 minutes ago, Rehtael7 said:

I know it's not really fair to compare any melee weapon to Prisma Cleavers or Fragor Prime, but that's just the state of things. And like I've been saying, getting the attack to actually work would be a challenge of its own. It's such a very specific thing to add to an existing melee type that already has its own stance. Why lockdown an enemy when I could be instead locking them down AND killing them for less effort and in less time?

because you're killing them, the enemies around them, and the enemies that are coming towards you at a distance?

 

[Chity]

4 hours ago, ObviousLee said:

then why are you continuing to post? i placed very simple guidelines for posting, which you obviouslee(hue) didn't read. Overlord had some ideas that were counter to my own, but she abided by my request. So, although i appreciate the constant posting keeping my topic on the top of the list, it's a clutter and it's taking away from the actual topic. 

Repetitious posts boiling down to "i don't see the point", are waste of effort. 

If you cannot comprehend what's being presented even though it's been clarified several times, then please move on to less advanced concepts, instead of repeating yourself constantly. it wastes both your time, and mine.

Guidelines? We don't need no stinking guidelines!

Anyway, the fact is that it seems like a neat idea, but it doesn't have much utility past attacking. It's could work, but it seems like it would act a little weird. I can see making it possible to grab an enemy, but to center a weapon around it would make little or no sense. Now please talk, instead of talking down to everyone, it's not very charismatic.

[Rhekemi]

Grab enemies, use enemies to hit other enemies (charging them) and release them for more explosive-elemental damage (which can be moded ala Chroma's mechanic). About right? This is actually very cool. I feel like you'd need to throw in some special grapple and slam combos (ala Street Fighter's Zangief or Guile, or some of the newer cats).

The speed does seem fast. You're using bodies as weapons.

I have to agree that it would make more sense as a warframe's skill, though I understand wanting it available for all 'frames. It's also possible that as a skill, it would justify the amount of work more than a new weapon.

There's no reason for it as a weapon besides the fact that it's cool and would be fun, and that is reason enough. 

That said, it is overpowered (especially with that 100% lockdown). A high level bombard gets locked down, I charge him with some good hits, clear entire mobs. Maybe this is the melee Tonkor.

Mixed feelings, but I like it overall. Cool idea.

Spoiler

+1 for The Treasure of Sierra Madre

 

Edited July 3, 2016 by Rhekemi

[MechaTails]

I swear, you could put 90% of the people around here on your ignore list and only good would come of it. Cripes.

Anyway, i like the throwing idea (however biased I may be because of an old concept I made lel)

I think you're going to have to rework how these things deal damage to make it more palatable? to this community, and most likely in a way that removes the whole slapstick appeal it has to you. Grabbing enemies by the ankles and wanging them around is hilarious, but it's too Looney Tunes, even for Warframe.

They might have to do something like use magnets to lift and toss enemies, for example.

Maybe some kind of "wrestling gauntlets".

Edited July 3, 2016 by MechaTails

[ObviousLee]

10 hours ago, julianattack said:

Guidelines? We don't need no stinking guidelines!

Anyway, the fact is that it seems like a neat idea, but it doesn't have much utility past attacking. It's could work, but it seems like it would act a little weird. I can see making it possible to grab an enemy, but to center a weapon around it would make little or no sense. Now please talk, instead of talking down to everyone, it's not very charismatic.

I'm not attempting to talk down to anyone intentionally, it's just that when i have to repeat myself multiple times to get a simple concept across, when all it seems to me(admittedly i could be mistaken) is that someone just doesn't like the concept and doesn't want it implimented. Otherwise they'd be making suggestions on how it would be modeled better to actually fit into the game, it gets aggravating. also i posted requested guidelines for the sake of getting actual feedback and avoiding those inane "no" posts.

6 hours ago, Rhekemi said:

Grab enemies, use enemies to hit other enemies (charging them) and release them for more explosive-elemental damage (which can be moded ala Chroma's mechanic). About right? This is actually very cool. I feel like you'd need to throw in some special grapple and slam combos (ala Street Fighter's Zangief or Guile, or some of the newer cats).

The speed does seem fast. You're using bodies as weapons.

I have to agree that it would make more sense as a warframe's skill, though I understand wanting it available for all 'frames. It's also possible that as a skill, it would justify the amount of work more than a new weapon.

There's no reason for it as a weapon besides the fact that it's cool and would be fun, and that is reason enough. 

That said, it is overpowered (especially with that 100% lockdown). A high level bombard gets locked down, I charge him with some good hits, clear entire mobs. Maybe this is the melee Tonkor.

Mixed feelings, but I like it overall. Cool idea.

  Hide contents

+1 for The Treasure of Sierra Madre

 

well what stat changes would you suggest? like i've said before, i want this to be top tier, but not so nutso that it effectively negates the necessity of any other melee.

5 hours ago, MechaTails said:

I swear, you could put 90% of the people around here on your ignore list and only good would come of it. Cripes.

Anyway, i like the throwing idea (however biased I may be because of an old concept I made lel)

I think you're going to have to rework how these things deal damage to make it more palatable? to this community, and most likely in a way that removes the whole slapstick appeal it has to you. Grabbing enemies by the ankles and wanging them around is hilarious, but it's too Looney Tunes, even for Warframe.

They might have to do something like use magnets to lift and toss enemies, for example.

Maybe some kind of "wrestling gauntlets".

I was thinking something the lines of grasping claws, be they corpus tech or something infested. the problem with it being either faction though in all honesty is that corpus tend to build weapons to handle the grineer and the infestation, and the infested namely deal toxic or viral (counting specifically tenno used infested weaponry) elemental damage. so in that respect, i'm thinking maybe orokin tech as they had the most advanced tech even to this day.

now, a thought occurred to me that instead of it being raggdoll smacks, what if held enemies were locked in a kind of stasis once grabbed? I.E. whatever animation they were doing is halted and locked. similar to the frozen cc effect. your magnetic grab suggestion is what gave me the notion. So if they were locked in their animation, and had a standardized hitbox for hit detection when striking enemies, would that alleviate some of the issues the community seems to be having?

[Rhekemi]

4 hours ago, ObviousLee said:

I'm not attempting to talk down to anyone intentionally, it's just that when i have to repeat myself multiple times to get a simple concept across, when all it seems to me(admittedly i could be mistaken) is that someone just doesn't like the concept and doesn't want it implimented. Otherwise they'd be making suggestions on how it would be modeled better to actually fit into the game, it gets aggravating. also i posted requested guidelines for the sake of getting actual feedback and avoiding those inane "no" posts.

The debate here isn't actually that bad. Try posting a concept that people don't take to on Reddit then we can talk about aggravation. And before it sounds like I'm gripping about Reddit, Reddit's just more brutal and quicker with the hands via downvotes if they don't like it. That brutal feedback--some of it borderline bashing--helped me improve my concepts.

Neither of you are bashing each other, or being intentionally condescending, and are debating the merits of the concept like adults (even if it did go on a bit too long). 

 

Quote

well what stat changes would you suggest? like i've said before, i want this to be top tier, but not so nutso that it effectively negates the necessity of any other melee.

You've literally already created a melee Tonkor, mate. I am not sure how to correct it without taking out all the fun. 

Let's unpack that: the Tonkor is considered one of the most OP weapons, trivializing a lot of content, becoming "mandatory" for end-game/sorties, and making other primaries feel like underwhelming investments of time and resources. But has it still hasn't been nerfed, or significantly changed. Too many people enjoy and like it the way it is (I even came around to it despite not liking it).

How do you change something everyone loves without destroying it?

Same goes for the Demora right now. It works how I want it to work, does what it's supposed to, but it's overpowered.

With time, I could think up some checks and balances mechanics, but not right now. Sorry.

Edited July 3, 2016 by Rhekemi

[ObviousLee]

1 minute ago, Rhekemi said:

The debate here isn't actually that bad. Try posting a concept that people don't take to on Reddit then we can talk about aggravation. And before it sounds like I'm griping about Reddit, Reddit's just more brutal and quicker with the hands via downvotes if they don't like it. That brutal feedback--some of it bashing--helped me improve my concepts.

Neither of you are bashing each other, or being intentionally condescending, and are debating the merits of the concept like adults (even if it did go on a bit too long). 

 

You've literally already created a melee Tonkor, mate. I am not sure how to correct it without taking out all the fun. 

Let's unpack that: the Tonkor is considered one of the most OP weapons, trivializing a lot of content, becoming "mandatory" for end-game/sorties, and making other primaries feel like underwhelming. But has it still hasn't been nerfed, or significantly changed. Too many people enjoy and like it the way it is (I even came around to it despite not liking it).

How do you change something everyone loves without destroying it?

Same goes for the Demora right now. It works how I want it to work, does what it's supposed to, but it's overpowered.

With time, I could think up some checks and balances mechanics, but not right now. Sorry.

well, the charge hp damage could be set to 40%, lower the crit multiplier and chance, maybe even the status all together, drop some of the ips and attack speed. i'm planning on updating the op this evening with some alterations to the concept and maybe stat changes. mechanically, it's sound. difficult as S#&$ i imagine to code, but sound. i mean ffs we're getting a laser beam shooting trident that can be thrown. plus the arcata from lunaro as a melee weapon as well. 

as far as i'm concerned, the gloves are off if it can be made sane in concept and practical in application within the game. so like i said, stats can be altered.

also i'm not sure if i pointed this out in the op, i'll have to double check and insert it in the op, but i don't want the charge of the throw to be affected by warframe powers. meaning armor negation corrosive projection etc. i'm not sure if that would even be possible, but if so i think it would be a requirement for that mechanic to be popped in. honestly not sure. 

[Sintag]

It'd be a monster to program and animate, but then again if they can pull this off, my wallet would be pulled out, and my money would joyously fly away.