Really DE? we are talking about how we hate nullifiers and you just... BUFF THEM? REALLY?

[BlackCoMerc]

2 hours ago, Vastarov said:

Fair. Also partially wrong, but still fair.

My mistake was the input of numbers - 'cause even if he/she were to represent the whole community and I were the only player supporting the continuation of the Nullifiers, we would still be just two players half-arguing on a forum.
If the hate for the Nullifiers is real, I want to see numbers. A poll, maybe - but to have even the slightest impact it needs 500k signatures, bound to a person and not an email or account since anyone is capable of forging multiple personas to rank up votes.

I understand what you are saying. In this case the "we" was intended to represent that rather enormous number of folks who have lodged forum complaints over the last few days regarding Nullifiers. Its been a considerable few, as one can see from a brief scouring. But I should have clarified that.

Honestly, I think Nullifiers would be fine, if:

They did not affect self buffs. At all. Self buffs should always remain in place.

Punch through should pierce the bubble, going through it while also dealing damage to it.

The bubble is either shrunken considerably, and their AI has them remain far away from the player, as they are Snipers

Or their sniper rifle is replaced with a strong melee weapon. If they are going to march right up to us, why do they use a Sniper Rifle? Makes no sense.

 

I think this would represent a much more fair and reasonable Nullifier.

[Darkwave1098]

5 hours ago, Vastarov said:

My mistake was the input of numbers - 'cause even if he/she were to represent the whole community and I were the only player supporting the continuation of the Nullifiers, we would still be just two players half-arguing on a forum.
If the hate for the Nullifiers is real, I want to see numbers. A poll, maybe - but to have even the slightest impact it needs 500k signatures, bound to a person and not an email or account since anyone is capable of forging multiple personas to rank up votes.

Look around the thread, look at the posts with the most number of upvotes. Are those posts supporting the buff? No.

There's your answer.

[TheLexiConArtist]

I'm just going to crosspost this from discussion on another thread.

2 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

The problem isn't inability to fight/kill Nullifiers. It's the fact that you have to do so in a restrictive lose-lose manner. "Just entering the bubble" forces you to lose buffs. "Just shooting the bubble" falls short when your weapons don't behave correctly (low ROF, shotguns). That, plus the common nature of nullifiers, makes a terrible unit. The possibility to fight something in some way does not invalidate it being unfun or unfair to other approaches.

They should be split up into different unit types; we already have the first one: the "beefy close-range cast denial" Comba/Scrambus (with better counterplay, headshooting the helmets). Follow that up with a power immunisation sphere unit, which still leaves targets vulnerable to bullets (Arctic Eximi globes already cover that), an ally-cleansing/enemy-buff-dispelling unit (that doesn't delete harmless objects like goddamn Ivara ziplines), and make them all appropriately uncommon to rare spawns depending on impact and you have the start of diverse enemies with compelling target priority differences depending on squad needs.

 

Saying 'nullifiers are the only unit that stops us cheesing' actually highlights the problem. If one unit is the only bastion of anticheese, then it's binary gameplay. If Nullifier then no. Kill Nullifier then yes, until new Nullifier.

[BrazilianJoe]

I think that warframe powers should have at least some negation power on nullifier bubbles. 

Like either reduce the the bubble a bit upon cancellation, or at least give the unit a stagger because of backlash when reflecting/negating the power.

 

[Anatolius]

Without removing nullifers I got some ideas for a fix

- Nullifer bubbles need their cap changed so any weapon can take it on

- the backpack can be destroyed if the wearer does not die, destroying the bubble permanently 

- multiple attampts at destroying a bubble will weaken all subsequent recreations of the bubble.

-penetration mods works on the bubble.

-self buffs are quickly but gradually decreased/dispelled. This one is very important to me because as a Nekros, you cant stop your shadows from walking into that thing so FOR EXAMPLE: A Nekros shadow walks into the bubble and are stunn locked and exponentially lose heal every second. Same for Frost globes

Same for self buffs: duration is sped up exponentially until the buff is dispelled. Drain abilities will drain alot more energy until the pool is completely gone and the ability cant be sustained.

-ability borne projectiles are still deflected.

-Weapon borne projectiles like rockets cant be deflected.

[Vastarov]

1 hour ago, Darkwave1098 said:

Look around the thread, look at the posts with the most number of upvotes. Are those posts supporting the buff? No.

There's your answer.

Uuuuh yesss a hundred players in total, maybe? On a over-one-million playerbase? With at least 100k players logging in every day?
Yes, that's a big number right there! Very much representative of the community as a whole.
(You weren't good at math in school, right?)

5 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

-snip-
They did not affect self buffs. At all. Self buffs should always remain in place.

Punch through should pierce the bubble, going through it while also dealing damage to it.

The bubble is either shrunken considerably, and their AI has them remain far away from the player, as they are Snipers

Or their sniper rifle is replaced with a strong melee weapon. If they are going to march right up to us, why do they use a Sniper Rifle? Makes no sense.
-snip-

Okay, now that's a more reasonable proposition.

Punch-through should work honestly on ALL bubbles (also Arctic Eximi, just to be clear), maybe at a fixed "thickness", say 1 meter or something similar.
The dinamic far-near or smaller-bubble would be too much imho, since their perk is exactly being able to dish big damage from a distance and forcing you to come near the bubble.
I think they're also armed with a Prova? I don't know if they ever use it aside when disarmed, though.

Edited July 11, 2016 by Vastarov
Typos... typos everywhere... ( ° -°)

[Darkwave1098]

13 minutes ago, Vastarov said:

Uuuuh yesss a hundred players in total, maybe? On a over-one-million playerbase? With at least 100k players logging in every day?
Yes, that's a big number right there! Very much representative of the community as a whole.
(You weren't good at math in school, right?)

Warframe's regular player base is 60K tops(30-40k people the days without updates).

Out of those 60k, not even 20% browse the forums or the subreddit, as you can see by the lack of posts and lack of awknowledgement whenever you ask someone something about both of them in-game.

Are you done being an A****** or will you actually open your eyes?

Edited July 11, 2016 by Darkwave1098

[(PSN)dA_BLoK_iS_hOt]

45 minutes ago, Darkwave1098 said:

Warframe's regular player base is 60K tops(30-40k people the days without updates).

Out of those 60k, not even 20% browse the forums or the subreddit, as you can see by the lack of posts and lack of awknowledgement whenever you ask someone something about both of them in-game.

Are you done being an A****** or will you actually open your eyes?

Link please. Where are you getting these numbers from?

[Darkwave1098]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)dA_BLoK_iS_hOt said:

Link please. Where are you getting these numbers from?

http://steamcharts.com/app/230410

The forums and reddit percent is just an assumption.

Edited July 11, 2016 by Darkwave1098

[(PSN)dA_BLoK_iS_hOt]

Just now, Darkwave1098 said:

http://steamcharts.com/app/230410

Didn't realize you were a PC player. I was thinking of PS4. 

[Darkwave1098]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)dA_BLoK_iS_hOt said:

Didn't realize you were a PC player. I was thinking of PS4. 

Yeah I was referring to the PC playerbase.

There's no website that publishes how many people play in both PS4 and XB1, but I'd assume the numbers are also around the 25k-30k mark.

[Azrael]

9 hours ago, Vastarov said:

My mistake was the input of numbers

No, your mistake was thinking that you have any idea what "the vast majority of players" think or feel.

But does it matter, if the design is bad? Let's consider a hypothetical situation. Suppose a common enemy were easy to deal with, easy to kill, and didn't do too much damage. Unless you're mag. If you're mag, this enemy type is very difficult to kill and does massive damage, almost guaranteeing death every time one appears, which is often. I'm not saying this is how nullifiers are, this is just a hypothetical.

Now how would people feel about it? I'm willing to bet (although I really don't know for sure) that most players don't really play mag. So most players would say "I don't know what the problem is, I have no trouble with them." Meanwhile mag players would say "this enemy is stupidly designed and unfair, I don't want my favorite frame invalidated by this enemy." Is this enemy well designed, since most players don't play mag and therefore don't care about it? Obviously not. A design that invalidates one frame and only barely threatens others is badly designed and needs to change, no matter how many players aren't affected by it.

Now obviously nullifiers are much more complex than this. There are multiple ways to take them down, but also multiple frames and playstyles that are strongly threatened by them. They serve an important purpose: curbing over powered ability spam. But nevertheless this is basically what's happening. Some players prefer frames and loadouts that are much more threatened by nullifiers than Excaliber with a soma prime is. Some players see no threat, while others see a direct attack on their favorite playstyle. Regardless of who has the majority, nullifiers are badly designed and need a rework. You don't need 500k signatures to see that, you just need to consider players other than yourself.

[Arkvold]

58 minutes ago, Lord_Azrael said:

No, your mistake was thinking that you have any idea what "the vast majority of players" think or feel.

But does it matter, if the design is bad? Let's consider a hypothetical situation. Suppose a common enemy were easy to deal with, easy to kill, and didn't do too much damage. Unless you're mag. If you're mag, this enemy type is very difficult to kill and does massive damage, almost guaranteeing death every time one appears, which is often. I'm not saying this is how nullifiers are, this is just a hypothetical.

Now how would people feel about it? I'm willing to bet (although I really don't know for sure) that most players don't really play mag. So most players would say "I don't know what the problem is, I have no trouble with them." Meanwhile mag players would say "this enemy is stupidly designed and unfair, I don't want my favorite frame invalidated by this enemy." Is this enemy well designed, since most players don't play mag and therefore don't care about it? Obviously not. A design that invalidates one frame and only barely threatens others is badly designed and needs to change, no matter how many players aren't affected by it.

Now obviously nullifiers are much more complex than this. There are multiple ways to take them down, but also multiple frames and playstyles that are strongly threatened by them. They serve an important purpose: curbing over powered ability spam. But nevertheless this is basically what's happening. Some players prefer frames and loadouts that are much more threatened by nullifiers than Excaliber with a soma prime is. Some players see no threat, while others see a direct attack on their favorite playstyle. Regardless of who has the majority, nullifiers are badly designed and need a rework. You don't need 500k signatures to see that, you just need to consider players other than yourself.

I... just want to quote this in order to thank you for this post.  Because you just perfectly encapsulated the issue with Nullifiers.

I've been on both sides of the nullifier issue.  My three favorite Warframes are Rhino, Inaros, and Ash.

Rhino is very dependent upon his abilities for survivability and effectiveness.  While Rhino has decent CC (Rhino Stomp) and mobility (Charge), the bulk of his survivability is based on Iron Skin and his Roar is what most teams want me around for.  Both of these abilities come to an end the moment I touch a nullifier bubble, leaving me bereft of 75% of my survivability and all of my damage buff.  Rhino's health, shields, and armor are decent, above average in most cases, but in sorties and other high level content, losing Iron Skin means I get ripped through really fast.  If you want an even better example, look at Nezha, who functions basically the same way as Rhino, except he's even more squishy and reliant on his powers to survive.

On the other hand, there's Inaros.  My Inaros has 5k+ HP, and is primarily built for durability.  Not only does he have preposterous levels of health, but he can get it back 2k+ at a time by sanding an enemy and following it with a melee finisher.  If I'm using Karyst, that enemy is dead, no chance of survival.  If I'm using Jat Kittag, not only does that enemy stand a good chance of dying, but so does all his nearby buddies thanks to Vulcan Blitz.  I don't even need Life Strike.  If I want even more survivability, I can sacrifice ~2.5k HP to double my armor with Scarab Swarm.  The loss is no problem, because I still have more HP than most Warframes, and getting it back is as easy as finding some unfortunate schmuck to spray sand on and then smash.  Contact with a nullifier doesn't bother Inaros much - sure, you lose Scarab Swarm, and you can't sand anyone, but your massive HP and high base armor is untouched.

Ash is the Warframe that Nullifiers hinder most, and yet he's also one of the least-limited of the Warframes I have in dealing with them.  Nullifiers stop Bladestorm and Teleport, my two strongest attacks, and they can also drop me out of Smoke Bomb's invisibility effect.  Despite this, if I'm invisible before encountering a nullifier, it's not hard to stay hidden, creep under his shield, and shoot him in the back or even stealth-finisher him without him or his buddies realizing it until it's too late.  One smoke bomb after that and I'm gone, and all they can do is shoot impotently at where I once was.  Hek, if I'm using a silenced gun, I can shoot down the nullifier's shield without alerting him, because hits to his shield don't get his attention, even if you pop it completely.  Then it's just a matter of popping Bladestorm on him to kill him AND everything else in the room.

So you see, different Warframes interact with Nullifiers differently.  Frames that don't have stealth or raw durability to rely on die very easily once the abilities that protect them go down.  Sturdier Warframes, or those who don't have defensive abilities can simply take on the Nullifier head-on, because losing their abilities doesn't hinder their ability to kill the nullifier once under the shield.  There's not a lot of rhyme or reason as to what Warframes are most shut down by Nullifiers - they're just a blanket 'no-fun zone' where the abilities that differentiate your Warframe from the rest simply don't work.  This is fine in small quantities, but as anyone who's faced nullifiers in sorties tactical alerts or endless missions can tell you, they're not always nice enough to come in small quantities.

Honestly, I think the Nullifier could work as an enemy; they don't need to be removed, IMO.  But the devs really need to take a look at this thing, and determine exactly what it's supposed to do, how it's supposed to do it, and more importantly how players are supposed to counter it.  Making a wider array of weapons effective against them is something I'd consider a good first step, along with giving them a stronger, shorter-ranged weapon.  Maybe replace those Lankas with Detrons or something, so that they can't fight effectively outside their shield range and have to rely on allies hiding under their shield for long-range offense.  This way, squishy warframes and snipers can pick off the shield from a distance, without getting picked off by the Nullifier's Lanka in return, and meatier warframes with strong close-combat ability can step in under it and wallop the Nullifier at point-blank range.  Mid-range fighters with automatics can do what they've always done.  Also, take a good hard look at the Nullifier spawning rates and spawning patterns.  Nullifiers should never spawn in groups and never be allowed to shield one another.

Edited July 11, 2016 by Arkvold

[Vastarov]

 

3 hours ago, Darkwave1098 said:

Warframe's regular player base is 60K tops(30-40k people the days without updates).

Out of those 60k, not even 20% browse the forums or the subreddit, as you can see by the lack of posts and lack of awknowledgement whenever you ask someone something about both of them in-game.

Are you done being an A****** or will you actually open your eyes?

Where are you getting your numbers from?
Because the "60k" number is the record for most players connected at the same time in the last week through Steam. "At the same time" and "through Steam".
Are you done being ignorant and refusing to use your brains or will you actually think before posting?
Also, inb4 warning from a Community Moderator. Calm yourself, we're here to exchange ideas (hopefully) in a civil manner.
 

2 hours ago, Lord_Azrael said:

-snip-

You see, that line of thinking ALSO creates problems.
Yes, there are enemies that penalize some frames more than others. So what is your solution? Make everything equal?

God knows how many stupid videos I've seen recently about "equality". Senseless, simplistic, demagogic videos - mostly focused on social matters, but it's the same way of thinking.
"Stop diversifieing people/stuff and we will have true equality" - HECK NO!
Hooray for diversity! Everywhere, anytime, for everything! I recognize myself in the differences between me and the world - otherwise "features" and "specialties" wouldn't even be words.

It's a big concept, but I like to apply it to games too.
This particular class is the most threatened by this particular enemy? GOOD! Maybe I will have to actually think about what to do and how to prepare myself for the challenge. Maybe for once the story won't be "I'll get everything easily and in a short amount of time" but I'll instead get satisfaction out of it.


This is all a long, round-about way of saying:
the Nullifiers are an unfair, over-powered, super-meta-oriented-ly designed enemy that force you to strategize ahead if you want to take them down easily?

I like 'em. Make more of that, please.

Edited July 11, 2016 by Vastarov
Removed "teets". Didn't know "teets" was a curse word. For me, not even *TUZZIFRUZZI* is a curse word, so go figure... :/

[Vastarov]

2 hours ago, Lord_Azrael said:

No, your mistake was thinking that you have any idea what "the vast majority of players" think or feel. [...]

Ah! Yes, actually I considered "the vast majority of players" kind of a number in itself.
So... if you switch your "No" with a "Yes" it will actually reflect what I meant. That's why two lines below I stated the opposite, as in me representing only myself against the rest of the community.

Just sayin', you seem like a senseful person, I don't like passing off as the stubborn, mulish loner... (even though I'm stubborn, mulish and kind of a loner)

[Azrael]

37 minutes ago, Vastarov said:

This particular class is the most threatened by this particular enemy? GOOD! Maybe I will have to actually think about what to do and how to prepare myself for the challenge.

If you want diversity, then telling players not to take mag solo to the void is something you should dislike. One of the complaints of many players is that diversity and choice are harmed by releasing a unit that pushes players towards certain meta loadouts. Our weapon diversity is harmed if we make snipers and shotguns less viable. Our frame diversity is harmed by taking away mag's ability to fight them effectually without running around shooting with no cover or protection (granted she can still glaive from inside a magnetize bubble, but that won't always work well). Most of our diversity comes from the different strategies and playstyles we have as a result of different powers. With all this in mind, it's clear that nullifiers are *anti* diversity while being *pro* meta, which is why I dislike them.

I have no idea what social diversity issues have to do with warframe, but think about this: is it beneficial to diversity to unfairly punish those who are different than you?

Edited July 11, 2016 by Lord_Azrael

[MacabreHaze]

1 hour ago, Vastarov said:

This is all a long, round-about way of saying:
the Nullifiers are an unfair, over-powered, super-meta-oriented-ly designed enemy that force you to strategize ahead if you want to take them down easily?

I like 'em. Make more of that, please.

Or well, you could just, I don't know use the most super hardest thinking stratagy that proclaims your masterful skills from the heavens above. Babes will cry in the street, Women will swoon. Men will swoon. Dogs will soon. Cats will look on you with indifference but secretly build a shrine of you in their littler box. Somewhere a child will cry as their parents turn into towers of ants in trench coats, only to devour all the girl scout cookies. And historians will right the name down of the one person who is able to use the strategy that works on everything. And that strategy is to press W.. but here is the kicker! You push E.. Not once. Not twice. But at least three times! Why three? Because the universe cracked at your skill on the first to attacks, and you had to tone down your skill, finally delivering the fated blow to the nullifier that would echo out across all of the star map. You have done it. You are amazed. And it is done. You have unlocked the W+EEE technique. 

Nike. Just do it.

And now for the weather. 

Edited July 11, 2016 by MacabreHaze

[Darkwave1098]

1 hour ago, Vastarov said:

Are you done being ignorant and refusing to use your brains or will you actually think before posting?

 

1 hour ago, Vastarov said:

Also, inb4 warning from a Community Moderator. Calm yourself, we're here to exchange ideas (hopefully) in a civil manner.

The irony of that statement does not cease to amuse me.

1 hour ago, Vastarov said:

Where are you getting your numbers from?

Speaking of ignorance, can't even bother to read the posts above you.

http://steamcharts.com/app/230410

Steamcharts reports the highest playercount at the same time for Warframe ever is 66k people. By your logic we should also count the people that played until the end of the tutorial and never even visited the forums, which is where you probably got your "over one in a million" players from.

People without any active involvement in the community of a game do not count towards statistics when making community based decisions. Probably too much for you to grasp, so I'll say it again:

People without any active involvement in the community of a game do not count towards statistics when making community based decisions.

I have no ways to count the folk from PS4 and XB1 into the equation because there aren't any websites that publicly show that information, sadly.

[Azrael]

1 hour ago, Vastarov said:

Ah! Yes, actually I considered "the vast majority of players" kind of a number in itself.
So... if you switch your "No" with a "Yes" it will actually reflect what I meant.

Oh, okay. I misunderstood. My mistake. I won't be able to edit the post, though, since my tablet is really wonky about editing posts for some reason. My main point wasn't about correcting you, anyway, so the post is still mostly valid, but I'd remove that line if it would let me. Sorry.

 

16 minutes ago, MacabreHaze said:

Or well, you could just, I don't know use the most super hardest thinking stratagy that proclaims your masterful skills from the heavens above. Babes will cry in the street, Women will swoon. Men will swoon. Dogs will soon. Cats will look on you with indifference but secretly build a shrine of you in their littler box. Somewhere a child will cry as their parents turn into towers of ants in trench coats, only to devour all the girl scout cookies. And historians will right the name down of the one person who is able to use the strategy that works on everything. And that strategy is to press W.. but here is the kicker! You push E.. Not once. Not twice. But at least three times! Why three? Because the universe cracked at your skill on the first to attacks, and you had to tone down your skill, finally delivering the fated blow to the nullifier that would echo out across all of the star map. You have done it. You are amazed. And it is done. You have unlocked the W+EEE technique. 

Nike. Just do it.

And now for the weather. 

I find this unnecessarily sarcastic and potentially inflammatory, but still hilarious. I especially liked how the cats responded. But, uh,... um,... what's with the sudden nightmarish image of a small child's pants transforming into pillars of ants? Who are you, Kafka?

[Azrael]

7 minutes ago, Lord_Azrael said:

what's with the sudden nightmarish image of a small child's pants transforming into

Parents! A small child's parents! And of course I can't edit it out. I'd like to thank the mobile site for making this idiotic mistake a reality. I'd also like to thank Samsung for their terrible auto-correct system and buggy virtual keyboard, and the English language for making it hard to write the word parents without accidentally spelling the word pants. I couldn't have done it without you!

[Tzolkat]

So basically, the people in this thread saying the nullifier buff was okay/liked are also saying that it's perfectly fine for the snowglobe I've been building up for half an hour to get instantly popped because a nully fell from the sky? (And yes, I've actually witnessed this)

It's not challenging. It's cheap.

[Cerebrum123]

12 minutes ago, Lord_Azrael said:

Oh, okay. I misunderstood. My mistake. I won't be able to edit the post, though, since my tablet is really wonky about editing posts for some reason. My main point wasn't about correcting you, anyway, so the post is still mostly valid, but I'd remove that line if it would let me. Sorry.

 

I find this unnecessarily sarcastic and potentially inflammatory, but still hilarious. I especially liked how the cats responded. But, uh,... um,... what's with the sudden nightmarish image of a small child's pants transforming into pillars of ants? Who are you, Kafka?

Worse than ants in the pants, pants turning into ants. Indeed quite nightmarish.

 

Yeah, I saw the correction, I just thought it was rather funny. 

[Cerebrum123]

1 minute ago, Tzolkat said:

So basically, the people in this thread saying the nullifier buff was okay/liked are also saying that it's perfectly fine for the snowglobe I've been building up for half an hour to get instantly popped because a nully fell from the sky? (And yes, I've actually witnessed this)

It's not challenging. It's cheap.

Or my Magnetize bubbles that I've been pumping loads of damage into disappearing without so much as a peep. Well, maybe something if some bombard rockets were swirling in there. Now Magnetize is even more team unfriendly. :( 

[(PSN)erzengel1985]

Lol I see you all are still crying about the update good to know there are whiners out there instead of players. Every post is the same nothing but crying about not being able to be cheap and spamming abilities and abilities are nerfed and it's harder to play lol learn how to adapt and not be a spammer then. De has done a awesome job with warframe nothing but respect for how much work they put into it. Just stop belly aching and work around the situtation like seriously.

[rngd444]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)erzengel1985 said:

Lol I see you all are still crying about the update good to know there are whiners out there instead of players. Every post is the same nothing but crying about not being able to be cheap and spamming abilities and abilities are nerfed and it's harder to play lol learn how to adapt and not be a spammer then. De has done a awesome job with warframe nothing but respect for how much work they put into it. Just stop belly aching and work around the situtation like seriously.

Oh look who showed up again to spread the exact same nonsense as before. They admittedly said themselves Specters was far from an 'awesome job' and also confirmed there'll be changes to Nullifiers in the future. Sorry to pop your bubble. You should try to be constructive for a change; that'd be quite something.