DE was supposed to adjust Saryn's numbers using our feedback and data... still nothing ?

[Ar0ndight]

Hello,

First of all DE : I love you guys, I throw time and money at Warframe without counting and I don't want that to change, that's what I took the time to write this.

Remember after Saryn's rework DE said they would adjust her numbers after getting some data. 9 months later, absolutely nothing. The feedback is plenty, but nothing, not even the slightest change was made.

I'm not here to bash DE, they released awesome stuff lately but to remind everyone that Saryn's rework is a failure. Yes, it is. I know spore builds work, I made one, played with it for a long time. But hey remember why Saryn was reworked in the first place ? She was a 1-button gimmicky frame. Spam Miasma and that's about it. Now ? Spam spores (and hide quickly behind a corner considering how squishy you are) and that's about it. Saryn is still a 1-button gimmicky frame she just requires even more work to make her work now considering she is only really relevant with a handful of weapons.

The rework was supposed to bring, wait for it synergy. On paper it did. In practice, it didn't, not even close. And you know what the saddest/best part is ? Fixing it isn't that hard. Change a few numbers, tweak some mechanics and Saryn would be the awesome reworked frame she was supposed to be like Frost and Excalibur whose rework turned into absolute fan favourites.

So, to maybe help DE and inspire others to give ideas, here are my suggestions :

 

Spore: Mostly fine as is really.

Molt: Now we get into the bad stuff. This is supposed to give Saryn survivability. Sadly it doesn't because first, it doesn't generate enough aggro and second, it is way, way too fragile.

The fix : Give it an invulnerability period where it can soak up damage to add to its HP pool, nothing new considering snowglobe and iron skin already do this. Very easy fix ! Oh and maybe lower its energy cost.

Toxic lash: This thing is both awesome and terrible. It's awesome in a melee build, but terrible anywhere else. DE seems to prefer Saryn as a melee debuffer, but considering how little survivability she has, it just won't work without Naramon cheese.

The fix: Instead of increasing blocking, why not increasing damage reduction instead ? That way you have a skill that can be used both in melee and gunplay ! Awesome right ? Everyone is happy, both the Melee Saryns and the other ones ! Also, the energy regen when killing a spored enemy should scale with power strength. How can there be synergy between abilities when using a full rotation requires energy pizzas ?

Miasma: The ugly. This ability was gutted by the rework. It is VERY costly and does VERY little. It requires way too much preparation for less than mediocre result. It's not synergy, it's just  bad. Miasma requires 162 energy if you don't mod for it, has a CC that depends on enemy body type, has animation lock, has very poor range, doesn't scale well with duration mods... most of the time, shooting your weapon or spamming more spores is plain better, no negotiation.

The fix: Saryn's current kit lacks a way to get rid of armor, and armor is the most troublesome thing to deal with on many enemies. I suggest that miasma reduces a percentage of the armor of the enemies in range depending on the amount of spores on them. 1 spore -5%, 2 spores -10%... etc (random numbers, just illustrating). Also, increase the base range. A lot. Increase the damage (it doesn't have to be like old miasma, just better than the current skill which does almost nothing). Reduce the cost, directly or indirectly by making the cost drop depending on how many spores are on nearby enemies and if a molt is nearby maybe. That's how you get synergy. If Miasma was changed like I suggest here, I would use spore and molt because they're great but also to prepare for my awesome finisher, Miasma. Right now very simple math tells me to leave Miasma in some dark corner and press 1 harder.

Another idea I saw on reddit for miasma : make it something like World on Fire. A toggle aura which would shred armor and poison stuff. Very badass ! But more work than changing a few numbers obviously.

Finally, I would suggest giving Saryn her pre rework health back.

That's it for me ! I really hope DE sees this. Just them acknowledging they have to work on Saryn and actually finish her rework would be great.

 

Edited July 16, 2016 by Ar0ndight

[(XBOX)Ivan of Jupiter]

I was going to make a long thought out post on how I disagreed with you, but decided against it. Not because I suddenly agree with you, but because there's no point. You're entitled to your thoughts and opinions just as I am to mine, your allowed to believe Saryn is a failure.

Personally I don't believe she is. She's absolutely amazing, but I won't waste mine or yours time explaining why I think so.

I will say this though. Bring a Polarize Mag with you. Saryn and Mag is a powerful combo that will just melt enemies.

[Ar0ndight]

Important nuance : I didn't say "Saryn is a failure" I said her rework is a failure. See the difference ?

Saryn is still a 1-button frame. Right ? Well here you go, the rework failed. It's not an opinion really. The rework was supposed to bring synergy and move away from the old "Saryn only uses one of her power and spams it", it didn't.

Saryn is strong in the right setup yeah. But her rework simply didn't do what is was supposed to. she now spams her 1 and not her 4, that's all. So I'm reminding DE of that fact and proposing solutions. You can love Saryn and still be critical.

Edited July 16, 2016 by Ar0ndight

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

No change? The Poison stacked in the like first week or so. This, basicly the only reason to use lash, was nerfed immediately. It was adjusted to be nothing but medicore. 

 

Go ahead. Bash DE. They screwed up.

[(XBOX)Ivan of Jupiter]

1 hour ago, Ar0ndight said:

Important nuance : I didn't say "Saryn is a failure" I said her rework is a failure. See the difference ?

Saryn is still a 1-button frame. Right ? Well here you go, the rework failed. It's not an opinion really. The rework was supposed to bring synergy and move away from the old "Saryn only uses one of her power and spams it", it didn't.

Saryn is strong in the right setup yeah. But her rework simply didn't do what is was supposed to. she now spams her 1 and not her 4, that's all. So I'm reminding DE of that fact and proposing solutions. You can love Saryn and still be critical.

There's a difference between a press one button to win concept and a frames potential revolving around a single ability.

spore by itself does not mass murder.

miasma pre rework did. 

If you want Saryn to have the same potential as before you need to utlize all 4 of her abilities. Perhaps it's too complex for you to grasp?

Also to insinuate that her rework is a failure is the same thing as saying she's a failure. And my rebuttal is that she and her rework are not. But again. Arguments online never amount to anything andusually devolve   into a salt war between both parties. 

So I'll leave it at that. And I'll say this. Fine. You're right. It's a complete and total failure. I mean the fact that I can go into a high level mission and consistently get the most kills even against Grineer isn't a testament to how well he works. Nah she needs even more damage. I would like to see enemies melt regardless of their level too.

sigh the only thing I'll give you is that molt could use a little help, beyond that i don't think she needs anything, her damage output is amazing, it just doesn't happen all at once. Toxic lash is amazing even if you aren't a melee  specific build. But whatever. Dammit I said I wouldnt do this and I did it anyway. Have a nice day and I how your voice is heard by De, maybe they'll think about it. Maybe they won't. Only time will tell.

Edited July 16, 2016 by (XB1)DRG JupiterIvan

[Ar0ndight]

28 minutes ago, (XB1)DRG JupiterIvan said:

There's a difference between a press one button to win concept and a frames potential revolving around a single ability.

spore by itself does not mass murder.

miasma pre rework did. 

If you want Saryn to have the same potential as before you need to utlize all 4 of her abilities. Perhaps it's too complex for you to grasp?

Also to insinuate that her rework is a failure is the same thing as saying she's a failure. And my rebuttal is that she and her rework are not. But again. Arguments online never amount to anything andusually devolve   into a salt war between both parties. 

So I'll leave it at that. And I'll say this. Fine. You're right. It's a complete and total failure. I mean the fact that I can go into a high level mission and consistently get the most kills even against Grineer isn't a testament to how well he works. Nah she needs even more damage. I would like to see enemies melt regardless of their level too.

sigh the only thing I'll give you is that molt could use a little help, beyond that i don't think she needs anything, her damage output is amazing, it just doesn't happen all at once. Toxic lash is amazing even if you aren't a melee  specific build. But whatever. Dammit I said I wouldnt do this and I did it anyway. Have a nice day and I how your voice is heard by De, maybe they'll think about it. Maybe they won't. Only time will tell.

Wow. You're talking about salt but you're the one starting to insult people and being overly sarcastic instead of actually contributing to the discussion. (see the bold parts), I didn't insult you and went out of my way to explain my point of view to you.

And no insinuating that her rework is a failure doesn't insinuate that she is. Period. Saryn isn't a failure, she does damage, she isn't broken, you can use her and she can shine with certain comps etc. Her rework is failure for the simple reason that it didn't accomplish what it was supposed to.

Disregarding your insult, this :

28 minutes ago, (XB1)DRG JupiterIvan said:

If you want Saryn to have the same potential as before you need to utlize all 4 of her abilities.

is wrong. That's the thing. If I want to play a spore spreading Saryn (which is the best build she currently has), why would I ever use Toxic Lash ? Why would I ever use Miasma ? (Miasma can do some damage and CC in a small radius when comboed but nothing worth the huge amount of energy it requires)

28 minutes ago, (XB1)DRG JupiterIvan said:

There's a difference between a press one button to win concept and a frames potential revolving around a single ability.

Yes there is a difference. But just like I said above, it's not that Saryn's potential revolves around a single ability, it's that Saryn's potential IS a single ability. An ability and a half if you want to count molt. Read my suggestion: that would make Saryn revolve around spore. Molt would be a true tactical tool, a real distraction when things get tough (now it just gets insta-popped and doesn't really aggro much). Toxic Lash would be useful because it would make Saryn less squishy thus making spore spamming and popping less of an hide & seek game (now it's completely useless if you don't melee, which is hard because you are so squishy). Miasma would be useful because it would have a good range, debuff the most important stats of enemies and overall be a good finisher, something an ultimate ability called Miasma ought to be (now it's frankly useless above level 40, it feels good because of the animation, but it's useless).

 

Finally: I'm not asking for more damage. Miasma should be and feel more powerful and if it means less damage for spores so be it.

Edited July 16, 2016 by Ar0ndight

[VoidWraith]

Yeah... The OP pretty much hit it on point. At least in my opinion, it did.

If I would like to add one more thing is that Molt should be able to catch a spore. What does that mean? Let's say you pop a spore on molt (all or one of it, or a couple of it) and it spreads to enemies. If you kill an enemy, and the enemy is near enough to the molt, that spore should spread back onto the Molt, adding more spores to the molt (if not all the spores popped) or spread spores back onto Molt again. The same when you pop a spore on enemy and it should spread back onto Molt.

 

[taiiat]

the problems people have with Saryn (most of them, there are some valid points that <1% of feedback brings up) aren't the problems with the Warframe.

 

• Spore isn't fine as it is, but the only problem with it isn't something most Players will consider a problem, since it's ridiculously in their favor. but that doesn't make it okay.
  • but that's 'okay'. i'll remember that one glaring problem for others, because i'm not looking to trivialize Gameplay.
• far more concerning with Molt is that Power Strength scales Health, but not Health Shield Regen Speed. when it absolutely should.
  • but you could have a second or two of Invulnerability because why not as trivial as it is for the functionality of the Ability.
  • it doesn't have any other problems.
• yes, Toxic Lash should give Damage Reduction rather than a Blocking increase. since Blocking is extremely situational since it means you can't do much other than case one handed Abilities.
  • Damage Reduction is much more practical. and like i've suggested in the past gives a way to try to push for 'Scale Armor' because it would look really cool.
• Miasma doesn't need to do more Damage, it needs more CC(more cool mechanics never hurts either). because that's what is otherwise not there.
  • a quick summary of what i have down in notes is longer Duration, significantly reduce Tick Damage, Enemies already affected spread to new Enemies, more nearby affected Enemies increases Damage dealt, Toxin/Viral Status also increases Miasma Duration as well as Damage, Enemies that die from Miasma leave behind piles of goop that increase Duration of nearby Enemies affected by Miasma.

2 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

No change? The Poison stacked in the like first week or so. This, basicly the only reason to use lash, was nerfed immediately.

completely false.
Toxic Lash stacks as many instances of Toxin DoT that you want.

18 minutes ago, VoidWraith said:

Molt should be able to catch Spores. If you kill an enemy, and the enemy is near enough to the molt, that spore should spread to Molt.

very valid! should be a thing. generally wasn't even noticing it wasn't due to the ocean of DoT numbers in front of me.
though now that i think about it i could've sworn it was doing that at some point. hm.

Edited July 16, 2016 by taiiat

[Ar0ndight]

15 minutes ago, taiiat said:

the problems people have with Saryn (most of them, there are some valid points that <1% of feedback brings up) aren't the problems with the Warframe.

 

• Spore isn't fine as it is, but the only problem with it isn't something most Players will consider a problem, since it's ridiculously in their favor. but that doesn't make it okay.
  • but that's 'okay'. i'll remember that one glaring problem for others, because i'm not looking to trivialize Gameplay.
• far more concerning with Molt is that Power Strength scales Health, but not Health Shield Regen Speed. when it absolutely should.
  • but you could have a second or two of Invulnerability because why not as trivial as it is for the functionality of the Ability.
  • it doesn't have any other problems.
• yes, Toxic Lash should give Damage Reduction rather than a Blocking increase. since Blocking is extremely situational since it means you can't do much other than case one handed Abilities.
  • Damage Reduction is much more practical. and like i've suggested in the past gives a way to try to push for 'Scale Armor' because it would look really cool.
• Miasma doesn't need to do more Damage, it needs more CC(more cool mechanics never hurts either). because that's what is otherwise not there.
  • a quick summary of what i have down in notes is longer Duration, significantly reduce Tick Damage, Enemies already affected spread to new Enemies, more nearby affected Enemies increases Damage dealt, Toxin/Viral Status also increases Miasma Duration as well as Damage, Enemies that die from Miasma leave behind piles of goop that increase Duration of nearby Enemies affected by Miasma.

 

 

My suggestions were just that suggestions, I'll gladly admit they're not perfect or fit everyone ! I'm not trying to trivialize content either, but I think that's not really a risk here. Until Damage 3.0 the game isn't balanced/balancable. Things either hit too hard or like wet noodles. Players are either gods or one shotted. Cheese is the true endgame.

Agreed for Miasma. I proposed more damage (as in, better scaling) because that seems fairly easy to tweak for DE and an easy to make an ability relevant. If we could have an entirely different mechanic with good synergy with the rest of the kit then it would be awesome too. Saryn doesn't need more damage, simply a better kit to avoid being the 1-button spammer she currently is and was before her rework (which is my main grip actually, the rework didn't solve the issue, just moved it)

Edited July 16, 2016 by Ar0ndight

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

50 minutes ago, taiiat said:

the problems people have with Saryn (most of them, there are some valid points that <1% of feedback brings up) aren't the problems with the Warframe.

 

• Spore isn't fine as it is, but the only problem with it isn't something most Players will consider a problem, since it's ridiculously in their favor. but that doesn't make it okay.
  • but that's 'okay'. i'll remember that one glaring problem for others, because i'm not looking to trivialize Gameplay.
• far more concerning with Molt is that Power Strength scales Health, but not Health Shield Regen Speed. when it absolutely should.
  • but you could have a second or two of Invulnerability because why not as trivial as it is for the functionality of the Ability.
  • it doesn't have any other problems.
• yes, Toxic Lash should give Damage Reduction rather than a Blocking increase. since Blocking is extremely situational since it means you can't do much other than case one handed Abilities.
  • Damage Reduction is much more practical. and like i've suggested in the past gives a way to try to push for 'Scale Armor' because it would look really cool.
• Miasma doesn't need to do more Damage, it needs more CC(more cool mechanics never hurts either). because that's what is otherwise not there.
  • a quick summary of what i have down in notes is longer Duration, significantly reduce Tick Damage, Enemies already affected spread to new Enemies, more nearby affected Enemies increases Damage dealt, Toxin/Viral Status also increases Miasma Duration as well as Damage, Enemies that die from Miasma leave behind piles of goop that increase Duration of nearby Enemies affected by Miasma.

completely false.
Toxic Lash stacks as many instances of Toxin DoT that you want.

very valid! should be a thing. generally wasn't even noticing it wasn't due to the ocean of DoT numbers in front of me.

Sry but no. Many MANY Tests have prooven this intendet and documented function to be false. I believe that one Player even pointed out that this was noted in some change Logs or devstream at some point. (Been a while)

 

Believe me, i would know. I did undergo the Tests and regular Gameplay on no other build as well. I've only ever seen Poison to be carried but never once reach a higher base.

I mean the mentioned function isn't linear but exponential! Damage to multiple targets would multiply the spread and base of the Detonation, which defines the shared poison and get exponentialy stronger with each Strike! Hitting lets say 5 targets with a 200% strength build (50% Poison dot on a Detonation which uses the innitial base that triggered the dot-1:1 dot strength) would share 15 units of Poison to these enemys and burst for damage equivalent to 10, the second Strike damage for (15+5+5)x3-75 units of Poison and burst for 50, the next Strike would share Poison for 80x3-240 units and burst for 160 of the innitial dot in totall. Not taken into consideration: 50% Status Chance per burst which would add up to 5 times 50% of the burst as additional dots....you get what I'm saying?

 

This is how it is noted in the Wiki. This is how people got Screenshots for MILLIONS of burst damage in the like first week. Ever tried recreating this scenario? Ever tried lashing lvl 100+ bulked enemys that would actually survive the build up for a while? The highest numbers you'll ever See are the melee krits....it does share Poison (from time to time). You can Stack static Poison till it expires but you can not use it how it was supposed to be used!

Edited July 16, 2016 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[DeMonkey]

Yeah. DE seem to go for massive changes, without any follow up alteration unless presented with too much community bullying pressure.

Much prefer Hi-Rez's method with Smite balance, they have 0 issue doing small changes, even something as minor as nerfing/buffing a God's base health by 10 points. 

Honestly, would much prefer seeing constant gradual changes to frames than the ''Frame 2.0'' marketing hype we currently get.

In regards to your proposed changes I'd be happy seeing all of them applied to Saryn.

Edited July 16, 2016 by DeMonkey

[taiiat]

26 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

things that have nothing to do with just Toxic Lash

so you're talking about Spores. yes, Toxin Status in relation to that makes many instances of Toxin Status not increase very much.
and people exploit other problems with Spores instead anyways.

26 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Honestly, would much prefer seeing constant gradual changes to frames than the ''Frame 2.0'' marketing hype we currently get.

both types of things are useful.

[DeMonkey]

4 minutes ago, taiiat said:

both types of things are useful.

Certainly, a combination of both is best. But if I had to choose between those two alternatives, constant gradual changes would win hands down.

[PikeOrShield]

I would love to have the changes you suggested for Molt and Toxic Lash, however, I think you have the wrong idea when it comes to Miasma.

Miasma greatly benefits from spore mechanics since it pops all the spores in its radius, creating a huge jump in their burst damage.  Anything that dies spreads more spores with more toxin and on and on it goes until everything's gone.  A Saryn who has decent toxin procs rolling around will have no problem melting everything in Miasma's cast radius, and then some due to spores gushing out, all the way through most sortie missions.  The only reason I rarely use it is because it's too effective.  It resets my spores (since everything is dead) and it's cheaper in the long run to just use spores by themselves.  In that sense, it's just an expensive way to get a short term results.  Buffing it's damage would just make it easier for bad Saryn's to pull off.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

so you're talking about Spores. yes, Toxin Status in relation to that makes many instances of Toxin Status not increase very much.
and people exploit other problems with Spores instead anyways.

both types of things are useful.

Less Just lash but destroyed Synergy between spores and lash, Synergy that made using lash desireable at all. Indeed.

 

Now it's only quantity over quality, what's a sad state on its own.

 

This Synergy extendet over her whole Kit btw as poppig spores or rather boosting the resulting burst was the key Element to this function. Miasama bursts spores on the Torso, molt bursts all spores in range...

 

Both abilitys offered different types of interaction with the lash infused Poison, which are simply gone now. This Nerf is the only reason why she is in the state she is in... with nothing left but her frickin spores.

Edited July 16, 2016 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[taiiat]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

This Nerf is the only reason why she is in the state she is in... with nothing left but her frickin spores.

everything other than the Exploits with Spores is totally usable, just some things leave something to be desired.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

12 minutes ago, taiiat said:

everything other than the Exploits with Spores is totally usable, just some things leave something to be desired.

Where is the Exploit tho? That's what she was intendet to do in her reworked state. There of course was room for recalibration as millions are hardly what they could have had in mind but these could've worked out without screwing her Kit up....

Edited July 16, 2016 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[merryfistmas]

You don't need to build exclusively melee for toxic lash to be useful. I like it because it means I never have to bring a dedicated spore popping weapon and with decent tankiness and sustain, melee becomes a good way of regenerating energy, especially against infested.

Molt is my only problem. It's incredible with regenerative molt, but lackluster otherwise. It can be used for convenient spore spread, but that's not hard to do anyway. Making it beefy enough to do it's job against corpus and grineer is the only change I'd ask for in the ability.

spores is fantastic obviously, not sure how you can describe an ability that halves the health of every enemy on the map that isn't in a nully bubble "mostly fine"

Miasma nukes everything under 50 and destroys trash mobs higher than that, which surprised me because people where whining about it's nerf like the world was going to end. Miasma requires zero work. You only need to spread spore, which is something you should be doing at all times anyway, and spreading spores takes no effort, you press 1 then play normally until you stop seeing spores. Giving miasma 1 guaranteed corrosive proc, or a percent chance to deal a corrosive proc on each tick would be great for scaling into later levels though, and I will concede that it falls off in sorties. Your spore suggestion is also good with synergy and all that.

Edited July 16, 2016 by merryfistmas

[Ar0ndight]

My main problem is molt too. It's really underwhelming. But I hope that if DE makes some adjustments (one can hope...) they might adjust the general issues with the rework I mentioned originally.