Loki balance

[Roachester]

19 minutes ago, (PS4)whoistimjones said:

Read it and its plain to see.

I can keep reading it until my eyes bleed, but it's not going to tell me what you're basing all of your information off of...

30 minutes ago, (PS4)whoistimjones said:

As for Valkyr, i know she was nerfed, but i don't like her or the people who main her so i added her anyway.

...but I think I'm starting to get a rough idea.

[-CCC-Secret]

2 minutes ago, Ibro156 said:

What makes worse. It can be scaled as well with duration mods. Which you should already have as your playing Loki. So it can be easily around 10 to 12 seconds of immortality with good build.

I'm not quite sure why you're bringing up the Switch Teleport Augment. I rarely see a Loki use a Switch Teleport much less with an augment slapped in for it. That mod slot can be used for more duration, cast speed, and more other important mods. There's little to no reason to use it.

[(PSN)PillarOfWar]

Loki is fine as is.

[-Snowy-]

I love these topics. "Let's nerf stuff because it's actually decent/good!" Simple rule, not broken, don't fix it.

Base Radial Disarm works well, fairly balanced out by the fact that enemies just lose their weapons and can pretty much one hit you where as with guns they would just graze you (this is true up to a certain level of course) if they had any other effect on them though slow/radiation/etc. (coughAUGMENTcough) that would arguably require a nerf. It has it's downfalls, the augment on the other hand could use a bit of revisiting. Or at least this is my personal opinion and experience with the frame.

[Ketec]

Disarm is pretty much worthless vs infested.
It turns ranged enemies into melee - and if you are not careful, they can be way more deadly. 
Nothing op there - it has a useful role for certain tasks.

[Ibro156]

28 minutes ago, secret9005 said:

I'm not quite sure why you're bringing up the Switch Teleport Augment. I rarely see a Loki use a Switch Teleport much less with an augment slapped in for it. That mod slot can be used for more duration, cast speed, and more other important mods. There's little to no reason to use it.

It something worth mentioning. Its there but people don't really pay much attention to it

[LeaserResael]

Another thread about Loki, another one that fails to mention his weaknesses.

Loki is probably one if not the weakest frame of them all. Any AoE from a decent leveled enemy will put him down, invis or not invis. 

His 1 is literally useless on any mid to high level mission, as every enemy can kill the "hologram" in a second (how can a hologram be killed is anyone's guess...), his 3 is extremely situational, which means that really few people use it too, and let's not even get into how this ability was nerfed for the spy vaults...
His 2 is good, but it's not broken, like I said before, any AoE, any Nullifier enemy and you're killed before you can even react, and we all know that once you enter any endless or high level mission there are lots of enemies with AoE attacks at once.
His 4? Yes, it's very useful, but it's not OP when you have broken enemies scalling to no end or Nullis that use sniper weapons that can kill you from far away.
I fail to see how his augment "enters into Nyx's territory", as the radiation only last a fixed 8 seconds and it cannot be altered in any way, unlike Nyx's Chaos which can be recasted and can last up to a minute...
People asking for a Loki nerf also conveniently ignore how USELESS he is against infested... A frame that is literally useless against an entire faction (ID makes it so at least he can put radiation on enemies, but without augments, his powers can't do anything against infested).
And he doesn't have any offensive skill, unlike Ash's 4th, Ivara's 3th headshot bonus or her 4th, a bow that shoots up to 7 arrows at once and scales with power...

Yeah... Loki is not OP when you take everything into account and not only a certain part...

[DeFragMe]

13 minutes ago, LeaserResael said:

And he doesn't have any offensive skill, unlike Ash's 4th, Ivara's 3th headshot bonus or her 4th, a bow that shoots up to 7 arrows at once and scales with power...

*shotgun...

no matter how you look at it.. that bow is a shotgun...

 

but in generall, i have the same opinion about loki as you^^

[(PSN)whoistimjones]

1 hour ago, Roachester said:

I can keep reading it until my eyes bleed, but it's not going to tell me what you're basing all of your information off of...

...but I think I'm starting to get a rough idea.

Good job taking that second part out of context. My conversation with you is now over because its already clear that youre a person my post spoke.

[Roachester]

11 minutes ago, (PS4)whoistimjones said:

Good job taking that second part out of context. My conversation with you is now over because its already clear that youre a person my post spoke.

And I thank you for confirming my suspicions.

Spoiler

 

[Rakosta_Kai]

Loki is fine as is.

ID fills a gap in Loki's setup with the Infested so I don't see issues with it.

...Saying it encroaches on another frame's skills is a false argument.

This is because there are tons of skills that mirror other frame's skills to some degree. If every frame ability in the game needs to be completely unique then every frame in the game will need to have 1-3 abilities removed or re-worked.

Loki forces a playstyle that some will love and other's won't... In that vein, some will enjoy playing him and other's won't.

We, as a community, need to let the notion go that a frame should be re-worked merely because a person doesn't like it or isn't good with it

...And now, for the hundredth time, I wish we had frame specific sub-forums. 

[armedpoop]

2 hours ago, (PS4)whoistimjones said:

Trinity's range was nerfed, whoop de doo. Its still pretty big, you just cant be at 1 LoR injector while Trinity is at another.

As for Valkyr, i know she was nerfed, but i don't like her or the people who main her so i added her anyway. I didn't say "Valkyr again" i just added her because she's a "Main frame".

As for Frost, his fourth needs to freeze at end of the animation, not the beginning. Its basically an alternative MP without the range(Nova range nerf as well as a LoS nerf. If its not in the same room or a wall is between the enemy and MP it shouldn't affect said enemy).

Vauban Vortext should work just like Mags Greedy pull, Only for Caster, as well as reduce the range of bastille or reduce the duration.

How people think all of these are ok, but Mesa cant stand in 1 spot and Auto aim or Saryn cant outright melt, or whatever people are complaining about with Ash, i will never know.

 

Read it and its plain to see.

So literally you think its OK to nerf frames that do their jobs well because they do to well, just because the DPS frames got nerfed? Im sorry, but didnt they get nerfed for a reason other than "I just dont like them"??? 

You dont even propose logical nerfs, its just straight debuffs for what reason? Why would anybody play this game if the powers werent epic and a bit over the top? 

"As for Frost, his fourth needs to freeze at end of the animation, not the beginning. Its basically an alternative MP without the range" 

No,. no its not, and if it froze at the end of the animation it would just be Mag's ult all over again, he would die while chasting it thus making it pointless. I have no idea how you think its an alternative M Prime tho. 

"Nova range nerf as well as a LoS nerf. If its not in the same room or a wall is between the enemy and MP it shouldn't affect said enemy)."

Ok sure, im on board with the not affecting enemies not in the room thing, but LoS is pretty unnecessary.The range nerf is also pointless as well due to the fact that the wave takes forever to even get to its max range. Its again a nerf for the sake of nerfing, why do you want to nerf things that dont need to be nerfed? 

"Vauban Vortext should work just like Mags Greedy pull, Only for Caster, as well as reduce the range of bastille or reduce the duration."

But why tho? Bastille and Vortex already scale off of 3 different stats causing you to not be able to have any dump stats in his builds, why nerf him? what purpose would this server?

 

Literally none of these nerfs have any reason behind them other than "I dont like them so they need to be nerfed". It sounds alot like you are salty about nerfs that affected your favorite frames, so you want everyone else to suffer. I just dont understand this mentality. 

[DJkillz]

8 hours ago, at35z said:

Disarm isn't really the problem, the Augment is.

Radiating Disarm simply should not have happened at all.

THAT needs to be somewhat nerfed so Nyx can still own Chaos as a special ability exclusive to her.

so many frames can nuke. its not exclusive to anyone. equinox/nova/nekros can slow. still not exclusive. loki/ash can invis. still not exclusive. list goes on.

the point is. abilities r not exclusive but some r more effective or more often used. nyx chaos is great at its own way. loki disarm with augment is really short duration. its a some proc i forgot what kinda proc. but it makes enemies turn on each other. which is not affected by duration. its a set proc duration. chaos is totally affected by duration. and nyx has many other tricks up its sleeve that makes its ovrall a better CC frame than loki. whether ppl choose to use loki thats their choice but overall. nyx has far better CC control. .. same approach goes for every skill.

[LeaserResael]

7 minutes ago, armedpoop said:

Literally none of these nerfs have any reason behind them other than "I dont like them so they need to be nerfed". It sounds alot like you are salty about nerfs that affected your favorite frames, so you want everyone else to suffer. I just dont understand this mentality. 

"No one can have fun if I can't" basically, it's really one of the worst things in MMOs and/or online games. Instead of asking buffs for their favorite frames or proposing ways to upgrade those frames, they just go and ask for nerfs just for the sake of it. No logical reasons, just nerf everything into the ground until the game becomes another generic tps.

People seem to forget (or they just plain don't understand) that the game's appeal revolves around killing hundreds and thousands of enemies in hilarious yet epic ways. If all those nerfs some people want were implemented, this game would become SO boring and generic that it would just stop being special and most players would simply go play something else.

Basically, I don't understand that mentality either.

[5HV3N]

Gotta love how people here claim that lvl's 100 aren't high and fiercely defend broken tools that allow to go much further as necesary and "fine"...

Loki is broken.
His invisibility can literally last forever (energy siphon with coaction drift is enough to feed it) and has no real drawback on top of it. Hell, he is fastest running warframe out there (not counting rhino.p with arcane helmet)
 Augumented disarm is one of strongest cc abilities out there, arguably stronger than nyx's chaos due to lower chance of eating up stray bullet in the face or objective.
decoy is... meh. Strength is dump stat in every meta loki build anyways, and even building around this skill takes you nowhere.
switch teleport is mostly troll tool. With parkour 2.0, and this skill being blocked in several spy vaults removed, it's just outdated and obsolete.  

But what triggers me most are loki's with tonkors posting end mission screens with obligatory "ez pz" during almost every TA. He is tool, he is meant to be used, but there is no glory in doing so. Yet loki masterrace knows no shame.

So possible solutions...
Have disarm and radiation proc chance scaling of strength, and have it scaling brutally so running with negative str leaves you with single-digit effect chance. So modding and using corrupted mods is a choice to be made in regard to prefered playstyle, not just going for highest possible numbers.

About invisibility... I doubt that hard cooldown equaling to time spent being invisible compensated by movement speed buff (again, scaling with str) would fly , though imo it would make most sense.
But invisibility as whole is pretty broken, if there are any doubts to that just look at how insanely popular naramon focus is. Hyekka's were a step in good direction, but doesn't really change much. More units should be able to detect invisibility, and all infested (c'mon, they're hive mind animals. And you literally walk over infested issue. That doesn't make sense. Lowered accuracy, miss chance, however they mechanically work would be appropiate).

I honestly have no idea what could be done about switch-teleport and decoy. I think everybody could agree on decoy needing buff, shifting it from small distraction with dismissable dmg to durable (multiple layers of scaling?) object drawing massive aggro might prove productive.

But there are frames like zephyr that need way more attention, because balance isn't only bringing obviousily op things back to line but also elevating those that are up.

Edited July 25, 2016 by 5HV3N

[Deskhon]

6 minutes ago, 5HV3N said:

 

So possible solutions...
Have disarm and radiation proc chance scaling of strength, and have it scaling brutally so running with negative str leaves you with single-digit effect chance.

About invisibility... I doubt that hard cooldown equaling to time spent being invisible compensated by movement speed buff (again, scaling with str) would fly , though imo it would make most sense.
But invisibility as whole is pretty broken, if there are any doubts to that just look at how insanely popular naramon focus is. Hyekka's were a step in good direction, but doesn't really change much. More units should be able to detect invisibility, and all infested (c'mon, they're hive mind animals. And you literally walk over infested issue. That doesn't make sense. Lowered accuracy, miss chance, however they mechanically work would be appropiate).
I honestly have no idea what could be done about switch-teleport and decoy. I think everybody could agree on decoy needing buff, shifting it from small distraction with dismissable dmg to durable (multiple layers of scaling?) object drawing massive aggro might prove productive.

So basically, "nerf loki to the ground so I will never see him in pubs"  am I right?

 

Edited July 25, 2016 by Deskhon
Because i want to

[armedpoop]

34 minutes ago, 5HV3N said:

Gotta love how people here claim that lvl's 100 aren't high and fiercely defend broken tools that allow to go much further as necesary and "fine"...

Loki is broken.
His invisibility can literally last forever (energy siphon with coaction drift is enough to feed it) and has no real drawback on top of it. Hell, he is fastest running warframe out there (not counting rhino.p with arcane helmet)
 Augumented disarm is one of strongest cc abilities out there, arguably stronger than nyx's chaos due to lower chance of eating up stray bullet in the face or objective.
decoy is... meh. Strength is dump stat in every meta loki build. And even building around this skill takes you nowhere.
switch teleport is mostly troll tool. With parkour 2.0, and this skill being blocked in several spy vaults removed, it's just outdated and obsolete.   

But what triggers me most are loki's with tonkors posting end mission screens with obligatory "ez pz" during almost every TA. He is tool, he is meant to be used, but there is no glory in doing so. Yet loki masterrace knows no shame.

So possible solutions...
Have disarm and radiation proc chance scaling of strength, and have it scaling brutally so running with negative str leaves you with single-digit effect chance.

About invisibility... I doubt that hard cooldown equaling to time spent being invisible compensated by movement speed buff (again, scaling with str) would fly , though imo it would make most sense.
But invisibility as whole is pretty broken, if there are any doubts to that just look at how insanely popular naramon focus is. Hyekka's were a step in good direction, but doesn't really change much. More units should be able to detect invisibility, and all infested (c'mon, they're hive mind animals. And you literally walk over infested issue. That doesn't make sense. Lowered accuracy, miss chance, however they mechanically work would be appropiate).
I honestly have no idea what could be done about switch-teleport and decoy. I think everybody could agree on decoy needing buff, shifting it from small distraction with dismissable dmg to durable (multiple layers of scaling?) object drawing massive aggro might prove productive.

"Gotta love how people here claim that lvl's 100 aren't high and fiercely defend broken tools that allow to go much further as necesary and "fine"..."

Yeah ok, I mean sorties totally arent meant to be done right? How do you define "further than necessary" anyway? Who are you to define what that is? 

 

"Augumented disarm is one of strongest cc abilities out there, arguably stronger than nyx's chaos due to lower chance of eating up stray bullet in the face or objective."

Instead of stray bullets, you eat stray batons which are objectively much worse than a stray bullet. Loki's augmented ult makes enemies beat each other, its not much more than a distraction whereas Nyx's CC can actually make enemies kill each other and actually scales with duration. Theres a huge difference between the 2. 

"But what triggers me most are loki's with tonkors posting end mission screens with obligatory "ez pz" during almost every TA. He is tool, he is meant to be used, but there is no glory in doing so. Yet loki masterrace knows no shame."

 

First of all, LOL at you unironically using "trigger" in a sentence. Secondly you are projecting really hard here, not all lokis do this, nor do they all proclaim "loki master race" and no shame? Are you really that upset about what other players do that they "trigger" you? 

"Have disarm and radiation proc chance scaling of strength, and have it scaling brutally so running with negative str leaves you with single-digit effect chance."

 

Again a nerf to all of Loki's builds for no reason other than "I dont like Loki!" (I guess in this case its cause Loki master race triggers you) Thats not a good enough reason to destroy literally all of Loki's builds by making people build for str on literally one ability. If you proposed this along with making Decoy hp scale with str as well, it would make more sense, but you didnt do that. You proposed a straight nerf just because you dont like it. Why? 

 

Thats not even to mention the fact that you are literally suggesting that an ULTIMATE ABILITY (that costs 100 energy at base) be reliant on a percent chance to do ANYTHING AT ALL. Do you realize how awful it would be to have an ability that only had a chance of working on activation? You tell me how that would in anyway shape or form make loki better or more balanced. You didnt even offer anything to add to the ability to make it still be viable, its just a straight nerf. 

Edited July 25, 2016 by armedpoop

[-Sandman]

RD is too OP? Level 100 scorpion would like to have a word with you. 

[DJkillz]

3 minutes ago, 5HV3N said:

Gotta love how people here claim that lvl's 100 aren't high and fiercely defend broken tools that allow to go much further as necesary and "fine"...

Loki is broken.
His invisibility can literally last forever (energy siphon with coaction drift is enough to feed it) and has no real drawback on top of it. Hell, he is fastest running warframe out there (not counting rhino.p with arcane helmet)
 Augumented disarm is one of strongest cc abilities out there, arguably stronger than nyx's chaos due to lower chance of eating up stray bullet in the face or objective.
decoy is... meh. Strength is dump stat in every meta loki build. And even building around this skill takes you nowhere.
switch teleport is mostly troll tool. With parkour 2.0, and this skill being blocked in several spy vaults removed, it's just outdated and obsolete.   

But what triggers me most are loki's with tonkors posting end mission screens with obligatory "ez pz" during almost every TA. He is tool, he is meant to be used, but there is no glory in doing so. Yet loki masterrace knows no shame.

So possible solutions...
Have disarm and radiation proc chance scaling of strength, and have it scaling brutally so running with negative str leaves you with single-digit effect chance.

About invisibility... I doubt that hard cooldown equaling to time spent being invisible compensated by movement speed buff (again, scaling with str) would fly , though imo it would make most sense.
But invisibility as whole is pretty broken, if there are any doubts to that just look at how insanely popular naramon focus is. Hyekka's were a step in good direction, but doesn't really change much. More units should be able to detect invisibility, and all infested (c'mon, they're hive mind animals. And you literally walk over infested issue. That doesn't make sense. Lowered accuracy, miss chance, however they mechanically work would be appropiate).
I honestly have no idea what could be done about switch-teleport and decoy. I think everybody could agree on decoy needing buff, shifting it from small distraction with dismissable dmg to durable (multiple layers of scaling?) object drawing massive aggro might prove productive.

ur point somewhat valid.. its broken? maybe maybe not i really dont know i dont have openion on this bit.but yes invis is a bit much lol. but if anyone got complaints on his invis should have complaints on naromon lens more (which u do.. i think.. so its ok). teleport. and decory r great utility and also great for teamplay. ofc not many can use it wisely cause no 1 plays like a team. (cheese cough cough). its 4th. yes its awesome especially with augment. but guess what. almost every other warframe 4th skill is as well. cheese spam. banshee, rhino stomp, vauban every daym skill: completely control down whole rooms, nezha 4th can pretty much be same as stomp. frost CC build. for 2nd and 4th ability. volt reworked 4th CC. every warframe that has been getting reworked have been good changes..seriously balancing out abilities that make all 4 abilities usefull. not just 1 or 2. and 4th abilities r usually no OP. like every frame we have in warframe. so loki may eventually be 1 of that who knows.

so we know all its abilities r awesome. or well how u consider it just 2 abilities.and 2 abilties r worthless. so think bout it. out of 4 only 2 r good enough.. thats balancing itself right there kinda. loki has terrible defence, and him being fastest frame is his ultility, survivability and refects completely on the frame itself. that bit is completely fine. so all in the end.. it could potentially be too much. it has too many great things. thats ture. so maybe. but not 1 abilities makes loki stand out thats complete nonsense.

[S0V3REiGN]

Yeah, let's nerf Loki because seeing Loki players gloating during a mission hurst my feelings. >_>

[Deskhon]

10 minutes ago, DJkillz said:

ur point somewhat valid.. its broken? maybe maybe not i really dont know i dont have openion on this bit.but yes invis is a bit much lol. but if anyone got complaints on his invis should have complaints on naromon lens more (which u do.. i think.. so its ok). teleport. and decory r great utility and also great for teamplay. ofc not many can use it wisely cause no 1 plays like a team. (cheese cough cough). its 4th. yes its awesome especially with augment. but guess what. almost every other warframe 4th skill is as well. cheese spam. banshee, rhino stomp, vauban every daym skill: completely control down whole rooms, nezha 4th can pretty much be same as stomp. frost CC build. for 2nd and 4th ability. volt reworked 4th CC. 

Good point. You know how i did Hieracon before getting vauban?

Did p.range+p.efficiency on volt and spammed ult. Worked against everything but drones.

Now i got a vauban and it is more fun to play.

Edited July 25, 2016 by Deskhon
Because i want to

[DJkillz]

2 minutes ago, Deskhon said:

Good point. You know how i did Hieracon before getting vauban p?

Did p.area+p.efficiency and spammed ult. Worked against everything but drones.

Now i got a vauban and it is more fun to play.

i have absolutely no idea what u mean by "p area p efficiency" O.O

anyway yayyyy.. atlast 1 person likes my pov

Edited July 25, 2016 by DJkillz

[Deskhon]

Just now, DJkillz said:

i have absolutely no idea what u mean by "p area p efficiency" O.O

anyone yayyyy.. atlast 1 person likes my pov

Power range+Power efficiency.

[VinDanger]

oh look a nerf thread make sure to choose your side everyone :

1. agree with the OP

2. use enemy scaling as justification for something being blatently broken

3. bring up a very situational and specific scenario where the thing in question MIGHT be at a disadvantage

4. see the word "nerf" and instantly shoot down any ideas brought up and provide no good reason for it not to be nerfed

5. compare the thing in question to another possibly broken thing, and use it as justification for the thing in question being the way it is

6. meta complaining like this

Edited July 25, 2016 by VinDanger

[JMP3]

Just gonna put in my two cents: Loki has some role overlap with Nyx since Irradiating Disarm is, in my experience having played both Loki and Nyx, more reliable in CC than Chaos since it has the confusion effect similar to Chaos combined with a guarantee disarm.  I don't think making a disarm a percentage chance would be good since than there's a percentage chance that your ability did literally nothing.  I'm not sure what could/should be changed, but it's all up to personal preference if want to use Loki or Nyx.  Loki's stealthy, but Nyx is more combat-oriented.  Take your pick.