Zephyr, best frame, but needs more loving

[(XBOX)ZeRo MeRcY]

In my personal opinion, she is bae. Best passive IMO and just all around fantastic. But she serves no in game purpose than can't be accomplished by other frames, and done better by other frames. Yes dive bomb can be useful when augmented, but Valkyr has a stronger and further pull with her prolonged paralysis mod. Tail Wind (and even her passive) have slightly been made less useful since parkour 2.0. Turbulence is her forte, obviously, and her only arguable ability that has a viable purpose. But has a small radius, and I've personally been killed by non melee weapons multiple times while in an active turbulence. In later game such as T4's, Frost wins in usefulness. Yes he cant carry it, but he can have 4 active, with larger radii. They can go down, true, but recasting is a simple task. It also carries the slow effect, and chilling globe is phenomenal. It recently has the push and explosion effect which can be useful as well, but not as much as the aforementioned advantages it offers. Finally comes tornadoes. Neat, pretty, but not too useful. Yes, in defense and interception it offers something. Defense, OK an emergency button when things get rough can be useful, but at the end of the round 1-2 minutes can be wasted hunting things trapped in ceilings, or just aimlessly thrown around the map. And lets be honest, regarding CC Nova's Prime is better, as is Vauban's vortex and Bastille, as is Banshee, and who doesn't love a good puddle from Hydroid in interception. Funnel clouds is extra neat and aesthetically pleasing, but the damage is sad.

 

OK that's enough talking about her flaws, i do love her after all. Let's talk about her potential. I'm going to just throw out my ideas for a possible rework, I'm totally open to hearing what everyone thinks or hearing their ideas.

First off, she can fly,Tail wind and Dive bomb are things she needs. I suggest we combine them. On the ground, its a simple, tail wind. In the air it is a dive bomb and in the air while aiming its a tail wind dash. Dive bomb augment can still apply.

I would suggest her second be turned into Razor Wind. cast-able on a single target creating a whirlwind around the target that sucks in enemies, applies a slash proc with an extended duration, and throwing them. When the duration ends is explodes (best choice of words i can think of, not like a bomb) outwards, applying the proc to all enemies with in the explosion radius. I understand how similar this is to lamplighter, which is a reason that one is totally up for debate. Titania takes alot of things i would have enjoyed Zephyr to have. Funnel clouds reduces the radius by a fair amount, but allows it to be cast on multiple enemies.

Third, Good ole Turbulence, but it redirects bullets back at their shooters. Jet stream functions normally.

Finally: Storm I suggest a sustained flight ability, similar to arch-wing on Zephyr. But oh wait, Titania, I think shes cool but for now screw you Titania. So as an alternative i propose, A storm ability, creating a cloud underneath Zephyr with a large radius that can be moved in all directions by the caster, still similar to arch wing , but slower and without acute turning. The cloud consistently rains in the area underneath it, slowing enemies and lowering their accuracy. Similar to old school tornadoes, status effects from allied fire change its secondary effect. First off fire. simple enough, the rain applies an effect similar to Ember's accelerant. Next up Cold. The rain becomes sleet, dealing damage in the area with a temporary freeze if the enemy is rained on for, lets say 4 consistent seconds. If the enemy is fire proc'd this effect cannot trigger. Next, electricity. This causes the cloud to periodically strike the ground with lightning. This ability targets a specific enemty and functions similar to volt's overload but in isolated, smaller areas. Toxin's turn. Simple enough as well, this changes the rain to poisonous liquid, applying a toxin proc on enemies being rained upon. Radiation! This causes the rain to function similar to Nyx's chaos ability, but essentially just procs radiation on enemies in the rain. Corrosion, acid rain! This makes the rain slowly tic away enemy armor. For now lets say 5% a second. And finally Viral. I don't have anything creative here to be honest, so for now, procs viral on enemies in the radius. I understand the rain mechanic and the cloud aesthetics are alot to ask of DE, but the other functions essentially are already in game.

 

There we have it. This is merely an opinion and a suggestion so please lightly salt yourself if you feel the need at all. I'm a diehard Zephyr fan, I've played this game an aggressive amount of time and shes my top frame with a good 25%. I just want her to be played more by others.

 

 

If anything, GIVE US A DELUXE SKIN!

Edited July 30, 2016 by (XB1)ZeRo MeRcY
felt disorganized.

[Mr.Lube]

The reason why Zephyr is at a low point is because DE gave her whole kit to every Warframe when they released Parkour 2.0.

Who needs tailwind and divebomb when you have the stupid bullet jump+roll combo?

They gave her passive to everybody in the form of aim glide, which people use more for gliding than they do for aiming.

[(XBOX)ZeRo MeRcY]

3 hours ago, Mr.Lube said:

The reason why Zephyr is at a low point is because DE gave her whole kit to every Warframe when they released Parkour 2.0.

Who needs tailwind and divebomb when you have the stupid bullet jump+roll combo?

They gave her passive to everybody in the form of aim glide, which people use more for gliding than they do for aiming.

Yeah man, she needs some loving.

[Birdframe_Prime]

You know, it's a real shame about the way this happens in the forums every time. We have a couple of big Zephyr threads full of re-work ideas and long arguments about whether or not she should fly, and all of that, then they fade off and the next person in that's interested completely misses them and has to start a new one...

But fear not! Being a veteran of many of these threads, I can provide you with a solution! Well, kinda. I take a lot of inspiration from what other people have given to those threads over time, and come from a lot of those arguments with some points that need to be kept clear, and my response to all of the Zephyr-needs-love threads is a conclusion that seems to polarise the responses.

Zephyr is a low grav, mobile and evasive frame. Without extensive work from DE that they are, quite honestly, not going to do for her, she is never going to fly, and moreover any kind of flying they could give her now would be counter-intuitive to her mobility design.

What Zephyr sorely lacks is any kind of interactivity with the world that isn't... well... disappointing. Dive Bomb is, thematically, a great ability in line with her air-powered attacking mode, but it's instantly grounding, has low damage, has low CC (unless you plug in Heavy Impact), and often leaves her in melee range of the enemies that she missed. Two of her abilities, Tailwind and Turbulence are non-interactive with the game world, a pure mobility one and a damage reduction one, 1 to go fast, 3 to negate ranged attacks, that's about it. And Tornado... oh the disappointment I had; it wanders around, vaguely, gets lost, stacks itself into corners, throws loot and enemies around randomly, pins things to the ceiling, and sometimes even just leaves the map entirely, spinning in the abyss. A mis-conception is that it does no damage too, when actually a normal strength build (to take advantage of, say, Jet Stream Turbulence) actually can have the funnels each dealing aroun 2.5k damage per target, for a total of 10k if you hit all four funnels, that's a lot, that's one of the highest damages for a cast-and-watch-it-go 4 in the game, beaten out only by Blade Storm and Miasma. But the odds of hitting a single enemy with all four funnels? Laughable.

Even worse, aside from being a pretty good Solo frame with some gimmicky builds like the Tonkor one, she has no real role on a squad, and no real role in the game.

You're absolutely right, there is nothing that Zephyr does, apart from that evasion and mobility, that other frames don't do as well, or in some cases better.

And so! It brings me to my conclusion: Zephyr needs a rework as a true Air Caster frame, and her role in a team should be a Point CC, with some variety and most importantly keeping her original flavour.

The key to this is to make changes to her abilities that are mostly Quality of Life, and then add an ability that makes her more versatile, and more oriented to either solo or team play with a more defined role.

Step 1. Fix her existing abilities. See the spoiler below, because this is a bit of a long reply already.

Spoiler

Tailwind, QoL: A recover for when she hits walls. Builds that give her a long Tailwind time are notorius for hitting walls and just... fire-working against them until the ability is done. Using the new parkour system, a hard impact should trigger a wall-cling recovery to enable her to move off again quickly in case of mistake, or incoming projectiles.

Tailwind, Aim; most people know the frustration of juuuuust missing the door in small spaces, hitting the edge, not the clean air of the open room beyond. So, having Tailwind able to follow the cursor, just a little, just a small amount to change a straight line to the wall, into a curve that hits the target.

Dive Bomb, combine with Tailwind: Most people that I speak to actually think Dive Bomb should be replaced in entirety, but I disagree as it can quite easily be made a part of Tailwind instead. The key is that mechanically you press 1 to Tailwind, and hold 1 to Bomb, making the Bomb part a small charge time ability. Why would that be important? Because it would do one thing first: stop momentum. From there, the option is simple, to either hold the button a little longer and then smash the ground, or to release the button and become a normal falling Zephyr, able to re-aim a Tailwind, to parkour, to aim-glide, anything. It's the answer to re-castable Tailwind that fixes the momentum issues. It would also make Dive Bomb Vortex apply to Tailwind, too, causing ragdolls on enemies that she flies past!

(This, however, is not necessary with one of the new 2 abilities that would fill the slot, more on that later.)

Turbulence: One of the best damage reduction abilities in game, let's move on. Except... maybe some synergy? Wind strong enough to deflect bullets should be strong enough to do something else.

Tornado, an AI rework: This sounds simple, it changes very little about Tornado as a visual or physical ability, even the damage and adjustable element type. You put a range on how far the ability is cast. Think Tentacle Swarm, range affects how far they can spread out. Why is this important? Putting a range on the area that Tornado 'patrols' allows for improving every other element of the AI.

1. The funnels can move faster.
2. They can follow the nav-mesh so they will always be where the enemy will walk, not on top of objects or out of the map.
3. They can actively seek enemies, so once a funnel releases an enemy, the next will target it and the next after that, able to deal all of its potential damage.
4. The release mechanics of the funnels can be changed, launching enemies and loot straight up, important because when they land, they are still in range of the other funnels. More-so, an actual 'release' means that even if they hit the roof, the same funnel can't hold them there indefinitely, it has to move on.

This turns Tornado from a roving source of potential CC into an active, area denial type CC on par with Vortex, Bastille, Tentacle Swarm and Sound Quake. You can use it to block off an approach to a pod, prevent enemies from taking an Interception node, target a specific group of enemies in Survival or guard your back while you activate life support. It makes it reliable, you're able to cast it and forget it for 30 seconds and it's still doing its job when you come back.

A lot of people, me included, have added that this should have an active dispel, pressing the button again should turn it off. Allow us to re-cast somewhere else for adaptability and swift reactions.

The single reason that Tornado is so unreliable as it stands is because it's free-roaming. Limit the roaming, up the interactivity and power.

Step 2. A new 2 ability.

Now I advocate the combination of Tailwind and Dive Bomb into 1 in every case, except a specific which changes Dive Bomb itself, leaving a space for a new ability. There are loads of ideas for this new 2. I have a favourite, but here are the suggestions, based on tons I've received:

Spoiler

1. Raptor (all names are working titles): A team buff ability that gives all frames enhanced senses and increased aerial damage reduction, increasing Enemy Radar and Loot Radar, and providing a highlight on enemies for their weak points (not like Banshee, the regular ones), particularly useful against bosses and infested, as their weak points are often not where you'd expect, and whenever an ally is in the air enemy accuracy is reduced.

Augment, Bird of Prey; enemies hit with Zephyr's abilities are all marked for Life Steal, healing her and allies on death for a fixed amount.

2. Compression: A team buff to weapon damage, charging all shots with additional damage, affected by strength. (Since Zephyr is so reliant on her weapons for damage, why not buff that?)

Augment, Compression Blast; weapons gain a 100% chance to either stagger or ragdoll enemies.

3. Swoop: This is the replacement for Dive Bomb, Zephyr targets an individual and dives on them, picking them out of the crowd, knocking down enemies around the target, and returning to her original position, dealing finisher damage and ragdolling the enemy as she drops it for single-point CC.

Augment, Swoop Vortex: similar to Dive Bomb Vortex, except enemies around the victim are all dragged up with her instead of being knocked down, only the original target suffers finisher damage.

4. Cannon Shot: Zephyr blasts a ball of air that knocks down enemies in a small radius for as long as its duration lasts. The bowling-ball of the Tenno world ^^

Augment, Orbit Shot: Three balls of wind circle Zephyr at a range of 3-4 meters staggering enemies for their duration.

5. Wind Lance: (My personal pick) A lance of wind shoots at Zephyr's target, gaining momentum and dealing more damage and CC the further it travels. At close range it deals a set amount of finisher damage and staggers a single enemy for quick CC, at mid-range it knocks down an enemy, dealing double damage and staggers enemies in a radius, at long range it ragdolls a single enemy, dealing 4x damage and knocks down all enemies in the radius.

Augment, Wind Cross: Two lances at once slice a shorter range in front of Zephyr, damaging and spinning all enemies in range, Confusing them for more CC.

Step 3. Synergy? Maybe?

Some sets of abilities work together fine without need for added synergy, the Tailwind and Dive Bomb combo works for Zephyr, which is why I put it together, but some improvements, like re-casting Tailwind while in the air comes at a reduced cost, similar to some of the other 1 abilities out there.

A very good person suggested Momentum or Energy stacks. Like Volt with his static build-up adding to his damage for the next attack, Zephyr could have that too. Time spent in the air, cancelled by landing, builds up a charge of potential energy, a little guage that builds in stacks maybe. With those, abilities like Dive Bomb gain damage multipliers, or a lot of the new 2 abilities too, like Cannon Shot and Wind Lance, able to hit harder no matter the distance, due to the energy stacks. It's a fair idea.

Turbulence could do with some actual synergy, though, I particularly like the idea of when you use Turbulence and stand in the area of Tornado, then the violent winds it causes actually gains Turbulence an area of stagger on enemies, in a small radius, like Nezha's Warding Halo, saving her from melee attacks. Same with other abilities, getting reduced cost for being in the Tornado area, or damage boosts.

And that's actually it.

Fix some of her existing abilities, give her a new ability on 2, and maybe add some synergy on top.

I want to see Zephyr get picked by players as an alternative to other frames on defense, as a team choice on survivals and as a genuine fun-run frame useful in all environments. I don't want her to take the place of a good Frost or Vauban, and I don't want to see her in places where a Chroma can get to with his Ice Tank build, but I do want to see her welcome in public matches and for her 4th ability to be a genuine force and not an annoyance to others.

A CC frame with either a concentration on that CC, or some versatility in a team buff. I would love to see Zephyr as the Queen of Ragdoll, it would just make my day.

What do you think?

[Mr.Lube]

15 hours ago, (XB1)ZeRo MeRcY said:

Yeah man, she needs some loving.

Or parkour needs to turn into parkour instead of flying.

[DjYawe]

I absolutely fell in love with Zehpyr when I first built her she was literally the most fun frame to play pre-parkour 2.0 Even through all the hate she got for her Tornadoes, I couldn't help but laugh everytime I used it, I find rag-dolling enemies to be freaking hilarious. but now she's the least used frame because everyone else can fly now too, and I'm afraid to use her any more because I might get booted from the party because no one wants a zephyr on their team. Please DE save our favorite birdy frame?

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

1 hour ago, DjYawe said:

I absolutely fell in love with Zehpyr when I first built her she was literally the most fun frame to play pre-parkour 2.0 Even through all the hate she got for her Tornadoes, I couldn't help but laugh everytime I used it, I find rag-dolling enemies to be freaking hilarious. but now she's the least used frame because everyone else can fly now too, and I'm afraid to use her any more because I might get booted from the party because no one wants a zephyr on their team. Please DE save our favorite birdy frame?

Ok let's at least be honest.

There reason why people don't pick Zephyr isnt because of parkour 2.0 it's because the meta.

Most players in Warframe pick Ash for press 4 to win or Excalibur for easy noob killing.. They pick Mirage for synoid spam. They pick Trinity for energy. If Zephyr was the only frame with parkour 2.0 movements people still wouldn't pick her because the meta says whichever frame is easier and gets me the most kills is who the majority uses.

[Birdframe_Prime]

2 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Ok let's at least be honest.

There reason why people don't pick Zephyr isnt because of parkour 2.0 it's because the meta.

You know, he's right guys.

That's why I want Zephyr to be the best at something besides movement, ragdoll would be honestly one of the best things to make her good at without breaking any of her existing themes, which is why I like the idea of ragdoll-based, range-based new abilities. It's why I like the idea of a 4 that lifts and throws things in a reliable, replicable fashion so that people can skeet shoot survivors. It's why I want Tailwind and Dive Bomb to be on the same ability so that the Vortex augment can apply to both for even more ragdoll.

A team buffer, or even a life stealer... these kind of things would really add to the meta on her.

Just that AI rework on Tornado even! Suddenly making her a point-denial frame with damage mitigation and mobility? That would be amazing.

[(XBOX)ZeRo MeRcY]

6 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Step 2. A new 2 ability.

Now I advocate the combination of Tailwind and Dive Bomb into 1 in every case, except a specific which changes Dive Bomb itself, leaving a space for a new ability. There are loads of ideas for this new 2. I have a favourite, but here are the suggestions, based on tons I've received:

  Hide contents

1. Raptor (all names are working titles): A team buff ability that gives all frames enhanced senses and increased aerial damage reduction, increasing Enemy Radar and Loot Radar, and providing a highlight on enemies for their weak points (not like Banshee, the regular ones), particularly useful against bosses and infested, as their weak points are often not where you'd expect, and whenever an ally is in the air enemy accuracy is reduced.

Augment, Bird of Prey; enemies hit with Zephyr's abilities are all marked for Life Steal, healing her and allies on death for a fixed amount.

2. Compression: A team buff to weapon damage, charging all shots with additional damage, affected by strength. (Since Zephyr is so reliant on her weapons for damage, why not buff that?)

Augment, Compression Blast; weapons gain a 100% chance to either stagger or ragdoll enemies.

3. Swoop: This is the replacement for Dive Bomb, Zephyr targets an individual and dives on them, picking them out of the crowd, knocking down enemies around the target, and returning to her original position, dealing finisher damage and ragdolling the enemy as she drops it for single-point CC.

Augment, Swoop Vortex: similar to Dive Bomb Vortex, except enemies around the victim are all dragged up with her instead of being knocked down, only the original target suffers finisher damage.

4. Cannon Shot: Zephyr blasts a ball of air that knocks down enemies in a small radius for as long as its duration lasts. The bowling-ball of the Tenno world ^^

Augment, Orbit Shot: Three balls of wind circle Zephyr at a range of 3-4 meters staggering enemies for their duration.

5. Wind Lance: (My personal pick) A lance of wind shoots at Zephyr's target, gaining momentum and dealing more damage and CC the further it travels. At close range it deals a set amount of finisher damage and staggers a single enemy for quick CC, at mid-range it knocks down an enemy, dealing double damage and staggers enemies in a radius, at long range it ragdolls a single enemy, dealing 4x damage and knocks down all enemies in the radius.

Augment, Wind Cross: Two lances at once slice a shorter range in front of Zephyr, damaging and spinning all enemies in range, Confusing them for more CC.

 

I love these ideas. Much better then my suggestion in all honesty. I think honestly swoop would be the most fun, but wind lance would be the most effective. I agree also with the potential changes to Tornadoes. I think if they remain, they need serious work. I am though preferable to my storm ult idea. Truthfully because i thought of it and well, you get that fuzzy feeling around your own ideas. I think she has ALOT of potential for new abilities and tweaks. I am though sad that the chances of DE seeing posts like this and being like "Oh man we forgot about Zephyr lets work on her!" are extremely low.

[Birdframe_Prime]

20 hours ago, (XB1)ZeRo MeRcY said:

I love these ideas. Much better then my suggestion in all honesty. I think honestly swoop would be the most fun, but wind lance would be the most effective. I agree also with the potential changes to Tornadoes. I think if they remain, they need serious work. I am though preferable to my storm ult idea. Truthfully because i thought of it and well, you get that fuzzy feeling around your own ideas. I think she has ALOT of potential for new abilities and tweaks. I am though sad that the chances of DE seeing posts like this and being like "Oh man we forgot about Zephyr lets work on her!" are extremely low.

Heh, first, DE are reading these, if only to see where the community is feeling the most burn, Zephyr threads are just not as common as complaints about, say, Limbo or direct requests for them to completely undo their changes to other frames.

And while I like your idea, I suggested the AI rework because it's actually 'path of least resistance' to getting a re-work. All of them, actually, are based on using what DE actually has now to provide something for Zephyr that would bring her into the current mode of game play.

To provide some feed-back on your idea, though, I can see the new Storm idea being, well, too slow. Zephyr has several things that promote her having movement and evasion, and a large-scale, slow-moving 4 would play pretty much against that. The elemental changes are inventive, although I'm not sure how practical they'd be to apply. Changing the base damage of an existing elemental type to another is, in programming terms, a snap, it's why Tornado currently has that effect, it was a cool way to optimise the damage against the enemy you were facing without affecting the AI behaviour of the ability itself. Creating something that could, depending on your squad and loadout, have to switch entire animations, the effect on enemies, hit detection and AI, several times a minute all while being a mobile in-game object that would respond to player input? That's a difficult one.

You're absolutely right, it's a good ability, and I'd personally include that on a new frame rather than any existing ones.

Maybe a Mystic Summoner style of frame? Hmm... Yeah, like Vauban, but ritual instead of tech, so you'd have a first ability that deals a direct debuff, maybe Curse, that targets enemies like Soul Punch, but makes them radiate a debuff aura to enemies in a radius, slowing or weakening them. Second would be Totem, places a directional totem that acts like a wall and draws aggro, while sending healing pulses to anything behind it based on the damage it takes. Third would be Familiar, which calls a companion to your side, like a Kubrow or Kavatt, which again has aggro to draw enemy fire and attention away from you, but is several levels higher than the enemies you're facing, so can tank a bit. Fourth would then be Storm Call, which summons a massive rain cloud to provide a huge rain AoE over the player. Elemental type can be affected by... only the player's damage, to make things easier for programming, but effects range from boosting fire damage, stunning or confusing enemies, slowing and freezing, reducing armour, reducing health, or the crowd favourite; raining health down on your allies.

Sorry, got a little into that one...

Anyway, glad you liked some of the suggestions, as I mentioned, I've been to a lot of these threads XD

[WrathAscending]

Having her Tornados follow her at a set distance would be one way to make a major improvement to her usability. The lack of any control over them makes them of questionable use as CC. Good for clearing out an area so you can revive someone who's gone down and is surrounded, but I don't use it in any other situation.

[(XBOX)T0XiC KRYPTON]

I think zephyr definitely needs a rework. With the new bullet jumps, tail wind is almost useless. I suggest we keep it but make it so when used zephyr stays in the air and can move along all axis like an archwing. This could be followed with croma style wings sprouting from her back. We could lower the damage tailwind does on the way up but give dive bomb a slight buff. What do you guys think?

Also fix turbulence.

[Birdframe_Prime]

15 hours ago, (XB1)T0XiC KRYPTON said:

I think zephyr definitely needs a rework. With the new bullet jumps, tail wind is almost useless. I suggest we keep it but make it so when used zephyr stays in the air and can move along all axis like an archwing. This could be followed with croma style wings sprouting from her back. We could lower the damage tailwind does on the way up but give dive bomb a slight buff. What do you guys think?

Also fix turbulence.

Right, I'm not trying to start a bigger argument, but Tailwind isn't useless. Far from it, in fact, because it does one thing that Parkour can't; it's your third, fourth, fifth and more jumps. It's a low-cost mobility function that allows for incredible amounts of time in the air already. 

You need to think of it not as Parkour replacing Tailwind, but that Tailwind is more akin Volt's Speed, it's a tool to go faster than Parkour, with the cost of energy, just like every other mobility-based ability. Like Ripline and Worm Hole, yes you can travel by parkour, but Worm Hole is faster, and Ripline will save you from pits that parkour leads you into along with having enemy interaction.

As for flying like an archwing... I'm absolutely, 100% positive that DE won't do it. Not because it wouldn't work, I've already been convince by others in long arguments that the ability is feasible, but because of what it would entail and the work needed for something that would be pretty pointless on Zephyr.

For example, look at the Titania footage, look what they needed to do to her in order for her to fly like an archwing: They shrink her to .25 scale, and give her unique weapons. Not regular ones, actual 'exalted' ones, like Mesa's Peacemakers.

Most importantly, compared to any other argument I've been shown, (trust me, beating a dead horse is nothing compared to what I've been through on the topic), is this: You can do everything with a non-flying Zephyr just as well, if not better, than a flying Zephyr, so why would DE waste their time creating an ability that won't actually update how the frame affects the game, rather than add something meaningful? Flying Zephyr is, as I said, actually kind of pointless. It adds no effect to game-play, not compared to giving her any kind of team buff, personal buff, offensive cc ability or enemy debuff.

Moving on... please elaborate on what you mean by 'fix' Turbulence?

I only ask because if you're talking about the old 'bullet tunnels' bug, it was fixed just before update 19, I've been testing it since to make sure it's not a false-fix, and it really does seem to be gone. Likewise the flip-sided version where it sometimes didn't protect from things underneath her current plane of movement, that's gone too. Ran an hour on Mot with her to check it only the week before last, not a single case of being hit when I shouldn't have been, except for those rare, rare times when enemy accuracy roll (generated per enemy per shot, it's something like only a 1-2% chance) causes a hit vs Tailwind's accuracy reduction.

As far as I'm aware, Turbulence has actually been fully fixed and is now working as intended.

[Birdframe_Prime]

17 hours ago, WrathAscending said:

Having her Tornados follow her at a set distance would be one way to make a major improvement to her usability. The lack of any control over them makes them of questionable use as CC. Good for clearing out an area so you can revive someone who's gone down and is surrounded, but I don't use it in any other situation.

This here is another excellent idea, one I suggested myself a while back.

Check out the AI rework I put in above, it's the conclusion I made after having people point out just how exploitable this ability would be as a 'follow the player' one.

You see, having follow abilities like this is great, there's a good example in Ember's World On Fire, but it is, at base, pretty un-interactive and it's also an energy drain ability, which Tornado would probably have to become as well (and Zephyr doesn't have the energy pool to sustain that). I like them and I would support the idea if it weren't for the fatal flaw:

Tornado already works like a set of slightly-less-powerful Vortex casts, that are mobile and explore the whole map. Vortex is a 4th ability for another frame, having 4x that power, able to follow the player, able to be directed at any enemy and not be a static effect as a point-denial? That's powerful. If you could pick up Vortex and move it around? Really powerful. The ability to re-cast Vortex is already something that counts for a lot, being able to place it in multiple places to CC multiple areas...

A follow-the-player Tornado cast, would be extremely over powered, it would make her better than Vauban because she could permanently CC any and every enemy she wanted, running around and around a defense point just picking up high level enemies and never letting them down. Basically, instead of an interactive CC frame, this would make her into a pure cheese frame ^^

[(XBOX)ZeRo MeRcY]

20 hours ago, Thaylien said:

To provide some feed-back on your idea, though, I can see the new Storm idea being, well, too slow. Zephyr has several things that promote her having movement and evasion, and a large-scale, slow-moving 4 would play pretty much against that. The elemental changes are inventive, although I'm not sure how practical they'd be to apply. Changing the base damage of an existing elemental type to another is, in programming terms, a snap, it's why Tornado currently has that effect, it was a cool way to optimise the damage against the enemy you were facing without affecting the AI behaviour of the ability itself. Creating something that could, depending on your squad and loadout, have to switch entire animations, the effect on enemies, hit detection and AI, several times a minute all while being a mobile in-game object that would respond to player input? That's a difficult one.

 

The lack of speed is actually a great point. Her function should be speed and maneuverability. That just needs to be Incorporated into more practicality as well. What if the tornado had a much larger radius and was stationary. Instead of just a throw into the air, enemies would be sucked in and spun around inside the tornado, you know how tornadoes actually are. It could be a spiral leading up to a throw at the top of the tornado. Additionally, this could allow for bullets to be sucked into the mix as well, with the ability to hit the spinning enemies. Finally allies within the radius could be given a movement and parkour height buff. This would essentially be able to absorb the turbulence ability, allowing for her third to be something strictly movement or mobility based, or some sort of buff. Another idea that probably requires a lot of work on DE's end, so doubtful. I'm also a huge fan of the follow idea associated with the tornadoes, the similarity to WoF would be there, but with a completely different effect. Sorry for constantly throwing out random ideas, its fun haha. Anyway these are great ideas and I'd love to hear from more people! So if youre viewing this thread don't be shy! Zephyr lovers should come out of the woodwork to fight for a bird of prey.

[(XBOX)P Knucklez]

lots of great ideas! I guess at least i would be satisfied just knowing they didnt forget about zephyr and have a rework incoming at some point

[EchoesOfRain]

Would like some feedback on an idea of mine

 

Tailwind: By holding down the skill key, Zephyr can charge Tailwind, which will create an aura of wind that picks up enemies as she dashes past them.

AUGMENT: Instead of a single dash per use, Tailwind now puts Zephyr into a jet-like flight akin to Ivara's Navigator. Energy is drained as she remains in flight

 

2nd ability - Raging Winds:   As Zephyr moves, this skill passively charges up. The faster she covers distance, the faster it charges, up to 100 stacks. Once the skill is used, Zephyr violently releases a wind that knocks away enemies in range. Left behind is an area of wind that slowly heals allies within. Enemies hit by Raging winds, or those that walk into the healing zone, are affected by a gravity debuff, leaving them vulnerable longer if knocked into the air. The range, knockback strength, and heal strength are all dependent on the amount of stacks Raging winds has. Using the skill at 10 stacks will have a very little effect, as opposed to Raging Winds at 100 stacks. Of course, the maximum effects are all based on mods

 

Tornado: Zephyr creates a single, larger tornado where the cross-hairs are aimed. The Tornado doesn't move, but has a much better grab range and keeps enemies trapped inside. If Zephyr Tailwinds through the Tornado, Tailwind gains a massive speed and range boost. Using Tailwind and-or Turbulence close to the tornado causes the Tornado to spin faster, dealing more damage to enemies trapped and increasing the grab range a bit.

[13QZXXTTX]

Zephyr new AWESOME passive: Infinite bird flight.

Spoiler

CONS: easily get knocked out by whips enemies, explosive any thing that touch Zephyr will stun Zephyr.

Giant Eagle Wing to compliment Zephyr's Frame. (close to Angel wing but more Zephyr's touch). I passed reading on Zephyr's passive, but give on the idea of what I think Zephyr's advanced parkour can become.

[Birdframe_Prime]

3 hours ago, EchoesOfRain said:

Would like some feedback on an idea of mine

 

Tailwind: By holding down the skill key, Zephyr can charge Tailwind, which will create an aura of wind that picks up enemies as she dashes past them.

AUGMENT: Instead of a single dash per use, Tailwind now puts Zephyr into a jet-like flight akin to Ivara's Navigator. Energy is drained as she remains in flight

 

2nd ability - Raging Winds:   As Zephyr moves, this skill passively charges up. The faster she covers distance, the faster it charges, up to 100 stacks. Once the skill is used, Zephyr violently releases a wind that knocks away enemies in range. Left behind is an area of wind that slowly heals allies within. Enemies hit by Raging winds, or those that walk into the healing zone, are affected by a gravity debuff, leaving them vulnerable longer if knocked into the air. The range, knockback strength, and heal strength are all dependent on the amount of stacks Raging winds has. Using the skill at 10 stacks will have a very little effect, as opposed to Raging Winds at 100 stacks. Of course, the maximum effects are all based on mods

 

Tornado: Zephyr creates a single, larger tornado where the cross-hairs are aimed. The Tornado doesn't move, but has a much better grab range and keeps enemies trapped inside. If Zephyr Tailwinds through the Tornado, Tailwind gains a massive speed and range boost. Using Tailwind and-or Turbulence close to the tornado causes the Tornado to spin faster, dealing more damage to enemies trapped and increasing the grab range a bit.

Hmm... Okay, most of this isn't that bad, actually ^^

The hold-to-charge would be interesting, would that work in transition between the air and ground? As in, would you start charging it in the air, but then land and just tailwind back up, or would it still count as going forward even if you hit the ground before you finished charging? An idea, true, but may need something of a hang-time mechanic in it.

Augment, though, is a little problematic. You know how Navigator works, in context of the game, right? It grabs and slows down a very small object. It's actually how Titania works, except with constant forward momentum rather than full control, because she shrinks down and moves as proportionately as fast as an archwing (not very fast). Doing this with Zephyr would either need Zephyr to be slowed down, or shrunk down, neither of which are exactly desirable for Zephyr. Hey, it could work, I'm not saying it can't, but be mindful of the limitations of what DE can program in the space of the maps provided. Also, Energy Drain on Zephyr's small energy pool might be considered a bad thing, I'm just putting that out there.

Raging winds, a good second ability idea. The charge mechanic is something quite a few people are asking for to build up Zephyr's attack power or range or ragdoll properties. Rather than the health-regen, might I suggest marking enemies for life steal? Similar to Nezha's one, it's a much more active mechanic that allows for DE to tweak the amount of life gained from a kill to compensate for what effective health a warframe has/will have in the future. And the gravity debuff is actually quite inventive, but practically speaking is about as effective as Oberon's passive; highly situational. As a suggestion, maybe a consistent accuracy debuff, applying Turbulence to a fixed point for allies to occupy, say around a defense pod or terminal, allowing Zephyr to keep mobile and build up stacks for the next cast.

As for the Tornado change, it's a fair idea, not the best I've heard since it immediately turns Zephyr into a better Vauban (it's a combo of Bastille and Vortex, providing the ranged area cast of Bastille, coupled with the guaranteed hard CC  of Vortex, where all enemies are ragdolled, but better because they're all taking damage and when the ability ends they're still at a distance from whatever you're protecting) maybe even taking a little of Inaros' ability too, but made better by the idea of synergy between it and Turbulence/Tailwind/Raging Winds where casting them inside it grants a boost to speed or damage. As I said, a fair idea, could be considered to be over-powered by DE.

I like some of this, it shows some inventive thoughts on the matter, but for the rest you need to think how DE views the frames as a whole, how they each influence the game, and that they don't want the abilities to overlap each other too much, or for one frame to literally under-cut another in function. Similarities are fine to DE, like the way Warding Halo and Iron Skin are effectively the same, but Iron Skin offers more physical protection by absorbing more damage with a faster cast, while Halo offers stagger on nearby enemies for faster running to counter its slower casting speed and greater energy cost. So earlier I freely suggested making Tornado more like Vortex and Tentacle Swarm, but kept the mechanics of the funnels confined to the same role to ensure a difference in how it actually picks up and CCs enemies. Similar, but distinct from the others in the same class.

Keep going, though, I think you've got some more ideas there!

[Birdframe_Prime]

2 hours ago, DesFrSpace said:

Zephyr new AWESOME passive: Infinite bird flight.

  Hide contents

CONS: easily get knocked out by whips enemies, explosive any thing that touch Zephyr will stun Zephyr.

Giant Eagle Wing to compliment Zephyr's Frame. (close to Angel wing but more Zephyr's touch). I passed reading on Zephyr's passive, but give on the idea of what I think Zephyr's advanced parkour can become.

Question! (I'm asking, genuinely, please don't take this as sarcasm.)

What does this add to Zephyr that would help her be a more active and interactive frame?

I mean sure, she could fly, but then what? My only point is that a non-flying Zephyr can currently do anything that a flying Zephyr can do, but often better because of the mechanical limitations in DE's programming for flight. Like dodging behind small objects for cover to allow recasting of Turbulence, or navigating narrow spaces full of enemies.

Second question!

What mechanical kind of flight would you give her? Given that the only two forms of flight in game are Archwing and Navigator, you're limited to a fixed-momentum slowed-down form that usually only applies to very small game objects, or copying Titania's ability. (In before comments about Wukong, that's archwing. Slower, but still archwing).

Third question!

If the limitation is something that will stun or stagger Zephyr when she's hit, would this not just be punishing players for running out of energy for Turbulence, or not getting it back in place in time? Surely the flight is supposed to allow her to move better, not stagger every time she's hit?

Fourth question!

What about all her animations? While she's flying will she have to have custom animations for every melee weapon in the game? For stealth kills, ground finishers and so on? Or will doing anything that requires animation cancel out her flight automatically?

Fifth question, not as important as the last four!

Have you considered that, based on all of her abilities and in-game lore, she's actually more of an Elemental Caster frame, like Ember, Frost and Atlas, not a bird frame? That she merely looks like a bird the same way that Valkyr, the berserker frame, kind of looks like a cat?

I'm putting all of this out there as questions that others and, if I can presume, DE will be asking of people that want controlled flight for Zephyr. Because that's the kind of thing that DE will have to figure out first and then weigh up as a work-load to see whether it's actually worth doing.

[EchoesOfRain]

5 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Hmm... Okay, most of this isn't that bad, actually ^^

The hold-to-charge would be interesting, would that work in transition between the air and ground? As in, would you start charging it in the air, but then land and just tailwind back up, or would it still count as going forward even if you hit the ground before you finished charging? An idea, true, but may need something of a hang-time mechanic in it.

Augment, though, is a little problematic. You know how Navigator works, in context of the game, right? It grabs and slows down a very small object. It's actually how Titania works, except with constant forward momentum rather than full control, because she shrinks down and moves as proportionately as fast as an archwing (not very fast). Doing this with Zephyr would either need Zephyr to be slowed down, or shrunk down, neither of which are exactly desirable for Zephyr. Hey, it could work, I'm not saying it can't, but be mindful of the limitations of what DE can program in the space of the maps provided. Also, Energy Drain on Zephyr's small energy pool might be considered a bad thing, I'm just putting that out there.

Raging winds, a good second ability idea. The charge mechanic is something quite a few people are asking for to build up Zephyr's attack power or range or ragdoll properties. Rather than the health-regen, might I suggest marking enemies for life steal? Similar to Nezha's one, it's a much more active mechanic that allows for DE to tweak the amount of life gained from a kill to compensate for what effective health a warframe has/will have in the future. And the gravity debuff is actually quite inventive, but practically speaking is about as effective as Oberon's passive; highly situational. As a suggestion, maybe a consistent accuracy debuff, applying Turbulence to a fixed point for allies to occupy, say around a defense pod or terminal, allowing Zephyr to keep mobile and build up stacks for the next cast.

As for the Tornado change, it's a fair idea, not the best I've heard since it immediately turns Zephyr into a better Vauban (it's a combo of Bastille and Vortex, providing the ranged area cast of Bastille, coupled with the guaranteed hard CC  of Vortex, where all enemies are ragdolled, but better because they're all taking damage and when the ability ends they're still at a distance from whatever you're protecting) maybe even taking a little of Inaros' ability too, but made better by the idea of synergy between it and Turbulence/Tailwind/Raging Winds where casting them inside it grants a boost to speed or damage. As I said, a fair idea, could be considered to be over-powered by DE.

I like some of this, it shows some inventive thoughts on the matter, but for the rest you need to think how DE views the frames as a whole, how they each influence the game, and that they don't want the abilities to overlap each other too much, or for one frame to literally under-cut another in function. Similarities are fine to DE, like the way Warding Halo and Iron Skin are effectively the same, but Iron Skin offers more physical protection by absorbing more damage with a faster cast, while Halo offers stagger on nearby enemies for faster running to counter its slower casting speed and greater energy cost. So earlier I freely suggested making Tornado more like Vortex and Tentacle Swarm, but kept the mechanics of the funnels confined to the same role to ensure a difference in how it actually picks up and CCs enemies. Similar, but distinct from the others in the same class.

Keep going, though, I think you've got some more ideas there!

 

Zephyr would definitely have hang time in the air while charging. Otherwise she'd be falling way to much while trying to get the most out of tailwind

TBH I honestly don't think the augment would work that well myself anyways xD. My main thought was of rushing missions, and i can see getting through doors just being a total pain. It's only an idea, after all. However, I did think it would be nice to add some form of following the cursor while mid-tailwind onto Tailwind by default. Just a bit of extra control.

 

For Raging Winds, the idea of a zone of health regen came from wind occasionally being linked with healing magic (Look at Fairy Tail for example). It makes more sense in my eyes to have a zone where the winds have calmed and heal allies, rather than sticking to enemies and healing allies when the enemy dies.

The gravity debuff is actually to work with Zephyr's Tailwind and Tornado (Yea, I know my Tornado suggestion may not be the best. Work with me). An accuracy debuff would be cool, but I feel like it might be working too closely with Turbulence.

 

Yea, I know it's not quite the best idea. Tornado is hard, as it's thematically similar to Vauban's Vortex. It's AI and throwing people around are what make Tornado bad, but fix that and you have a better vortex. Perhaps enemies sucked inside are trapped in the "Eye of the Storm" and are unable to leave, but neither enemy or ally can shoot through the tornado. The Tornado can still proc status and deal damage over time, but to shoot the enemies allies would have to go inside the tornado, or shoot through the opening in the top. It's a grouping mechanic like Vortex, but enemies are NOT rendered helpless. Once Tornado ends, you have a very grouped up mob of enemies ready to shoot you down, if someone isn't taking care of them

Zephyr's skills are meant to play around this Tornado. The gravity debuff and knockback from Raging Winds, coupled with Tailwind's CC (Wind aura and Divebomb knockdown) are great for CC'ing enemies for Tornado to suck in.

 

[13QZXXTTX]

Thank you @EchoesOfRain! Since that a long explanation, if DE wish to "re-vamp" Zephyr like Ash 4 being rework. Then yes not just an unstoppable animation but a player control 4th ability. Am I saying Zephyr need an overhaul? Probably no, since a flying passive mean not flying around but flying in the open sky. 

It just an idea that is obvious to me, as flying should be available for Zephyr, "the word is the Bird" (TM,SurfinBird).

 

[(XBOX)ZeRo MeRcY]

11 hours ago, EchoesOfRain said:

2nd ability - Raging Winds:   As Zephyr moves, this skill passively charges up. The faster she covers distance, the faster it charges, up to 100 stacks. Once the skill is used, Zephyr violently releases a wind that knocks away enemies in range. Left behind is an area of wind that slowly heals allies within. Enemies hit by Raging winds, or those that walk into the healing zone, are affected by a gravity debuff, leaving them vulnerable longer if knocked into the air. The range, knockback strength, and heal strength are all dependent on the amount of stacks Raging winds has. Using the skill at 10 stacks will have a very little effect, as opposed to Raging Winds at 100 stacks. Of course, the maximum effects are all based on mods

I like the idea of this skill a whole lot. I may suggest adding an acceleration to Zephyrs movement speed stacking with the skill. This would essentially give her a secondary effect until the skill is popped.

[DjYawe]

out of all of this i see the main theme of these ideas, we love zephyrs Rag doll potential and it seems that's great for her theme. she is wind and a strong gust of wind can easily fling things around. It kinda bugs me that even though zephyr is lighter she doesn't jump higher than anyone else and it really clashes with her mobility. knock downs are good for her but Rag dolling is where it's at! if we aren't blazing through mobs i'm fully happy blowing a crowd of them away! i'd say a lot more but it's 3am i have to go to bed xD.

[Caelward]

Just gonna leave this here for anyone who likes their Zephyr but hasn't been made aware of one of her most powerful weapon match-ups.