Hardcore Spy and Rescue mode?

[estosan]

I like this game's stealth system well enough but the AI are pretty stupid and the ability to walk beside them often ruins a lot of immersion but does anyone else think it would be interesting if spy missions failed the moment you triggered the alarm? Or if you didn't shut it down in enough time? Though this game focuses on ninjas I find much focus on stealth extremely lacking favouring itself as more of a hack and slash with stealth features making spy very disinteresting as it's not too hard to simply hack your way through to the data.

[(XBOX)xXSiCC66Xx]

NO...that is all!

[Mastikator2]

Have you tried nightmare mode on either of these mission types? It might be to your liking.

[D.Raiden]

26 minutes ago, estosan said:

I like this game's stealth system well enough but the AI are pretty stupid and the ability to walk beside them often ruins a lot of immersion but does anyone else think it would be interesting if spy missions failed the moment you triggered the alarm? Or if you didn't shut it down in enough time? Though this game focuses on ninjas I find much focus on stealth extremely lacking favouring itself as more of a hack and slash with stealth features making spy very disinteresting as it's not too hard to simply hack your way through to the data.

Personally I love spy missions one of the many ways I level my frames I would like to see some improvement in the AI to make it harder to actually complete.

Basic AI logic: Comrade or Friend dies before me, I should look at his dead body and look if I can find the killer myself no need to ring the alarms.

5 minutes ago, Mastikator2 said:

Have you tried nightmare mode on either of these mission types? It might be to your liking.

Thought NM were for specific nodes can you actually manually select if u want a mission on NM?
This would definitely be in my interest

[Fionntan]

6 minutes ago, Mastikator2 said:

Have you tried nightmare mode on either of these mission types? It might be to your liking.

This ^

Tbh, an alarm = fail mission will just promote me to use Ivara + Inflatator or Loki only.

I enjoy Spy but this doesn't seem fun at all personally :/

1 minute ago, D-Voidborn said:

Personally I love spy missions one of the many ways I level my frames I would like to see some improvement in the AI to make it harder to actually complete.

Basic AI logic: Comrade or Friend dies before me, I should look at his dead body and look if I can find the killer myself no need to ring the alarms.

Agree, it be nice to see some more clever AI scripts added for the enemies in Spy.

[D.Raiden]

7 minutes ago, Fionntan said:

This ^

Tbh, an alarm = fail mission will just promote me to use Ivara + Inflatator or Loki only.

I enjoy Spy but this doesn't seem fun at all personally :/

For my taste that exactly what I am looking for no 1min till data gets destroyed but alarm = insta destroy or fail idc.
Smarter AI and that ^ is what I am looking for in a spy mission. Is that what happens in NM? if so how do I enable this!?

[motorfirebox]

I wouldn't mind these.

[Fionntan]

18 minutes ago, D-Voidborn said:

For my taste that exactly what I am looking for no 1min till data gets destroyed but alarm = insta destroy or fail idc.
Smarter AI and that ^ is what I am looking for in a spy mission. Is that what happens in NM? if so how do I enable this!?

uhm... I don't recall Spy having instant fail

Actually tbf I never did NM since year ago so no clue and now U19 has them only alerts I have even less of clue...

Your guess is as good as mines.

Edited August 8, 2016 by Fionntan

[Obviousclone]

the ai in this game isn't good enough

 

trust me, the enemy randomly aggros onto you for literally no reason at all

especially in wildlife missions with kubrow or crossfire/invasion missions.

[Fionntan]

5 minutes ago, Obviousclone said:

the ai in this game isn't good enough

 

trust me, the enemy randomly aggros onto you for literally no reason at all

especially in wildlife missions with kubrow or crossfire/invasion missions.

Oh man, same goes for Capture missions which it always turns into B rated movie even if I'm being sneaky/stealth :l

Sadly seems intended....

[D.Raiden]

10 minutes ago, Fionntan said:

uhm... I don't recall Spy having instant fail

Actually tbf I never did NM since year ago so no clue and now U19 has them only alerts I have even less of clue...

Your guess is as good as mines.

well I my question still stands: How do u enable this NM?

[D.Raiden]

4 minutes ago, Fionntan said:

Oh man, same goes for Capture missions which it always turns into B rated movie even if I'm being sneaky/stealth :l

Sadly seems intended....

Well there "most valuable unit" suddenly collapse and disappears wouldn't you be on high alert?
That the everyone in the room jumps in alert I can understand, though why the whole map gets alerted no clue.  

Edited August 8, 2016 by D-Voidborn

[Jicematoro]

In most stealth games you have a set of tools to make it bearable. Stuff like throwing a rock, shooting tranquilizer, or in case none of this is available, fixed enemy routes to encourage hiding and quick reaction.

On warframe, we only have Ivara (Sleep Arrow, Sound Arrow, Cloak Arrow and Prowl), Loki (1, 2, 3) and the Huras Kubrow (AKA Le Bumpy Stealth-Killer), with proccedurally generated maps, random enemy spawns that follow no specific, and/or predictable routes on top of it. Only 2 Frames have the tools for stealth, meaning only 2 frames can actually be stealthy in the way you suggest (Unless you count Limbo+Huras I guess) The only other option is stealth killing everyone around, with better enemy AI, you'll lose that, leaving you at RNG's mercy.

9 minutes ago, D-Voidborn said:

well I my question still stands: How do u enable this NM?

Random Alert-Like Nodes (On Starchart 2.0 they were Orange nodes), not sure if those are still a thing tho, haven't seen one since specters of the rail.

Edited August 8, 2016 by Jicematoro

[Fionntan]

7 minutes ago, D-Voidborn said:

well my question still stands: How do u enable this NM?

That's also unknown for me.

So far only alerts have them for NM. Outside of that no clue, haven't seen on the map at all since U19 went live.

I think I recall DE saying they'll add them back soon? Take that with a grain of salt.

4 minutes ago, D-Voidborn said:

Well there "most valuable unit" suddenly collapse and disappears wouldn't you be on high alert? that the everyone in the room jumps in alert I can understand,
though why the whole map gets alerted no clue.  

Oh I should clarify, I specifically meant the capture target makes a run for it even though I am either a) invisible or b) behind a wall without assaulting him so I have to make run for it and nuke the target.

Edited August 8, 2016 by Fionntan

[D.Raiden]

3 minutes ago, Jicematoro said:

Random Alert-Like Nodes, not sure if those are still a thing tho, haven't seen one since specters of the rail.

That's it? well then I am quite disappointing and the only higher challenge is doing ones in sorties(Grineer) since u get only 3 changes....
Hopefully they will improve the difficulty of higher lvl spy missions in  the future

[Gabbynaru]

If anything, I'd love harder/more complex Corpus hacking puzzles. Even the ones on Oceanum/Sorties are incredibly easy, and, considering how hard the Grinner ones are (those are harder for a different reason though), I'd like the  higher end puzzles to actually be something I can fail. Cause I can't fail them currently, even if I don't focus on them. Also, ciphers should be enabled only when there's 10 seconds left before the data is deleted and for doors.

[SeaUrchins]

Current spy missions are a joke, they can be facerolled in stealth on any frame with any weapon.

I'd welcome alarm=fail, no res or teleport for the hostage, hostage dies=mission fail.

But that's never gonna happen since they try to keep the game super casual.

Edited August 8, 2016 by SeaUrchins

[TARINunit9]

1 hour ago, estosan said:

I find much focus on stealth extremely lacking favouring itself as more of a hack and slash with stealth features making spy very disinteresting as it's not too hard to simply hack your way through to the data.

Your problem is a conflagration of the fact that the "second chance" mechanic exists, and the penalty not being particularly severe if you aren't grinding for XP. Many players do Spy missions for XP, but the XP rewards aren't worth the time if you set off the alarms. Naturally if your gear is all at 30 you don't really have to care

Insta-fail on Spy missions the moment you trigger the alarm would only be acceptable if there was a checkpoint at the Spy vault's antechamber (due to how stealth games are designed). Since Warframe doesn't do checkpoints the game needs to give you a "second chance" mechanic.

And speaking as someone who has done nearly 200 sorties, higher level Spy alarms give you just BARELY enough time if you charge your body right into an alarm trigger

[D.Raiden]

21 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Your problem is a conflagration of the fact that the "second chance" mechanic exists, and the penalty not being particularly severe if you aren't grinding for XP. Many players do Spy missions for XP, but the XP rewards aren't worth the time if you set off the alarms. Naturally if your gear is all at 30 you don't really have to care.

I am one of those who do spy missions to level their gear.
But I can pretty much clear Spy missions with every frame and weapon(I own) I have in fact done it Grineer and Corpus spy mission Pluto/Sedna/Uranus.
I still love Spy missions but they are not a challenge what so ever. Sorties are a bit more of a challenge but not that much, do only challenge to me is getting the one data in the room where the lazers cross. Don't turn them off and try to get the data without triggering them.

[TARINunit9]

5 minutes ago, D-Voidborn said:

I still love Spy missions but they are not a challenge what so ever.

Not after you've done them a hundred times, no. This is why I still find Moon Spy hard: I've only played it twice

Edited August 8, 2016 by TARINunit9

[(XBOX)BULLS 0N PAR4DE]

46 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

If anything, I'd love harder/more complex Corpus hacking puzzles. Even the ones on Oceanum/Sorties are incredibly easy, and, considering how hard the Grinner ones are (those are harder for a different reason though), I'd like the  higher end puzzles to actually be something I can fail. Cause I can't fail them currently, even if I don't focus on them. Also, ciphers should be enabled only when there's 10 seconds left before the data is deleted and for doors.

DE has stated that they have a new puzzle system in the works. Not sure if it will replace both current systems or it was a new added system altogether

EDIT: With the new Ivara mod just added I'm guessing people still find the corpus ones to hard. So in short no DE is not working on a harder system of spy maps

Edited August 8, 2016 by (XB1)BULLS 0N PAR4DE

[TheScytale]

Nightmare missions aren't a thing anymore, and even before Specters of the Rail, you didn't instafail if you set off the alarms (I got my Ivara from NM missions only).

The ones where you instafail were sorties, but DE changed that not too long ago because people were stupid enough to run around without thinking and fail the mission for everyone. I liked it though, it gives that certain feeling of "I must not fail this" that the current stealth currently lacks. 

[DawnThade]

17 minutes ago, SeaUrchins said:

Current spy missions are a joke, they can be facerolled in stealth on any frame with any weapon.

I'd welcome alarm=fail, no res or teleport for the hostage, hostage dies=mission fail.

But that's never gonna happen since they try to keep the game super casual.

I agree with this, it's why i wish there were some sort of challenge mode, there would be one for every mission type(they could rotate enemies, maps and extra condition on a monthly basis). These challenges offer no rewards and are only for those who want to face serious challenges. Now before you crucify me, i say "No rewards" because every time DE adds rewards to a new system, everyone wants to take part in the system, players unskilled in that particular mission type begin complaining about gating content and before you know it DE has nerfed the new system into the ground to accommodate everyone. The only type of acknowledgement that would be OK maybe an icon next to your name or something like "DawnThade[Champion]"(Champion is just a rank amongst 5 others to signify that as of that moment  this player is amongst the top 5 high scores for any of the challenges). These will be SOLO challenges too.

These system could work as follows on Spy challenge :

Spy: Taking a warframe less aligned to stealth(rhino as opposed to loki) will increase your score as well as not dying, not damaging/killing any enemies, not triggering the alarms, using no abilities, never being seen(even by cameras). Those could constitute getting the highest possible score. The spy vaults themselves can remain the same but random enemy placement and procedurally generated map will remain(basically the path  to the vaults will change per mission).

You guys can come up with the rest if this is an idea you like.

[(XBOX)BULLS 0N PAR4DE]

Any mission without an end reward for the most part would not be played by the majority and end up being a failure. People now a days feel the need to be rewarded or it is not worth the time and effort.... Oh so sad

[D.Raiden]

20 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Not after you've done them a hundred times, no. This is why I still find Moon Spy hard: I've only played it twice

Yes first time I did those it was indeed a challenge(sucked the most at the wall latch part) but time went past at it got easier along the way.