Warframe Concepts and Reworks. Points to consider

[Nazrethim]

Hello everyone.

This thread is to provide with a useful work frame for anyone who decides to post a concept for a new Warframe or a rework for an existing one. Don't see this as mandatory features a concept "must have" but rather a list of useful tips to learn and improve you existing and future works.

Theme:

The Warframe must keep a consistent theme (Aka: What Lotus says about them).

Example:

"This is Ash, lethal and elusive. Ash can remain unseen, but his effects on the battlefield can be felt by all. Keep an eye out, Tenno." -Lotus

This will define how the Warframe fits in the game, both from a story and gameplay perspective. The theme will dictate what the warframe is capable of (abilities), his stats (a "warrior" frame would have more raw endurance stats like hp, shield and armor than say a "mage" frame), it's behaviour (like their noble/agile iddle animations) and appearance. Name also plays a big part on the theme of a warframe, you instantly know that Excalibur is about swordmanship, that Rhino is a tough frame, the Volt revolves around electricity or that Hydroid has water powers.

 

Interactivity:

Warframe is a game, it is meant to be played. What's the point of having a vast arsenal of cool weapons and warframes when the only tactic is "stand on a crate or behind a wall mashing a single button" or just "cast, let it on and take a rest"? While easily killing hordes with ease might be fun, it becomes dull very quickly. A dull tactic soon turns the Game into a Grind.

 

Synergy: 

The abilities must synergize (as in, work better when used in combo) but at the same time the abilities shouldn't require each other to get their supposed job done. If you have a CC that increase the damage another ability you have deals to affected targets, that's synergy. If, instead, the damage ability deals so little damage without the CC one in effect to the point it's required, the we are in trouble the moment the CC stops being effective or the energy runs low.

 

Conclave: 

Not all players like Conclave, but wheter you like it or not, DE will have to rebalance a frame for it eventually. If you already like Conclave keep it in mind when you are about to suggest a concept or rework. If you don't like it also try to keep it in mind, because it will be good for DE too.

An ability created with Conclave balancing in mind means that DE wouldn't have to mechanically change it, just tweak stats, simple numbers, which saves time and resources. At the same time it's good for the players, after all it's not fun when you jump from Coop to PvP and have to re-learn how your warframe works because DE had to alter the PvE abilities a lot or develop from scratch new ones for just Conclave.

 

Simplicity: 

If you can  make abilities simple to use so a new player can pick up what does what quickly, but at the same time allow for skilled players to turn the tide of a battle and turn a defeat into a victory via tactical use of them. While complex abilities seem good on paper, they also make difficult to build a warframe or even play it properly, a convoluted playstyle may attract some players, but will turn off many more. Simple abilities tend to be seen as "easy", and while there's some truth in this, simple abilities are also more flexible in terms of possible builds and tactics. It also makes combos easier to code in and pull off with all 4 abilities. Instead of doing 1 ability combo (say.. 2>2>3>4) and nothing else, you can make 2>4>1 or 3>4>2 or 3>3>1 etcetera.

Edited August 15, 2016 by Nazrethim

[GinKenshin]

I've seen this before, did you repost or something? 

[Rehtael7]

Whether this is a repost or an original, I can only say thanks.

Some things to add: Feasibility (As far as what it does from a programming perspective) and Originality (Does the frame just copy something that already exists?)

[Nazrethim]

2 minutes ago, Rehtael7 said:

Whether this is a repost or an original, I can only say thanks.

Some things to add: Feasibility (As far as what it does from a programming perspective) and Originality (Does the frame just copy something that already exists?)

^_^

Renamed "learning curve" to "Simplicity". Anything is feasible, as DE have demostrated time and time again (and will continue to do so in the future).

Originality is tricky. You can have two thematically different frames with mechanically similar abilities, and the distinction is made by the rest of the abilities and the combos made with them.

If you can elaborate on them I wouldn't mind adding them though.

[Rehtael7]

3 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

^_^

Renamed "learning curve" to "Simplicity". Anything is feasible, as DE have demostrated time and time again (and will continue to do so in the future).

Originality is tricky. You can have two thematically different frames with mechanically similar abilities, and the distinction is made by the rest of the abilities and the combos made with them.

If you can elaborate on them I wouldn't mind adding them though.

Okay, let's say a frame concept has a passive around shooting eyes out of the target. Eye hitboxes would too small, hit detection is inconsistent and that asks a lot of the player connection.

Or let's say a frame rewinds the last 30 seconds of the mission entirely. That would cause a LOT of problems.

 

As for originality, let's say someone makes an AoE that slows enemies and makes them explode on death. Even without more specific details, that IS what Nova's 4th does.

Also, just copying a property from another game or form of media is a bit of an issue. Like the "Deadpool frames" or "Batman frames" or "Kratos frames" etc.

[Nazrethim]

12 hours ago, Rehtael7 said:

Okay, let's say a frame concept has a passive around shooting eyes out of the target. Eye hitboxes would too small, hit detection is inconsistent and that asks a lot of the player connection.

Or let's say a frame rewinds the last 30 seconds of the mission entirely. That would cause a LOT of problems.

 

As for originality, let's say someone makes an AoE that slows enemies and makes them explode on death. Even without more specific details, that IS what Nova's 4th does.

Also, just copying a property from another game or form of media is a bit of an issue. Like the "Deadpool frames" or "Batman frames" or "Kratos frames" etc.

-Would use "face" hitbox (a combination of Headshot+Frontal attack)

-The game would keep track of the mission and makes a rollback. It is feasible, but it would be a burden on PCs right now, not to mention consoles. However, a controlled, single target rollback could be added, WoW successfully pulled off that with Mages doing just that (on an 8s rollback though).

 

- "AoE that slows enemies and makes them explode". By AoE you mean A) an caster-originated single-cast radial AoE (Nova's MP) B)A spell that you cast on a determined location and causes it's effect there, C) A spell that you cast at a determined location and lingers causing it's effect on enemies that come after the cast? You can have mechanically similar abilities, remember that these don't exist in a vacuum, but are part of a full set and that proper wording can change a lot.

For example, I made a rework for Ash in which his abilities are: 1)A simple skill-shot 2)A grenade-like spell 3)Teleport+AoE short CC and 4)Duration Stance Ultimate like Old Hysteria

Spoiler

 

-"King Arthur's Sword Frame". "Chinese Deity frame". "Greek Titan Frame". A little bit of copying always plays part on anything. Another example: Scorpions say the Grineer equivalent of "Get over here" when they use their grappling hooks, sounds familiar? There's a fine line between "copy" and "inspiration" and "homage".

[Rehtael7]

2 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

-Would use "face" hitbox (a combination of Headshot+Frontal attack)

-The game would keep track of the mission and makes a rollback. It is feasible, but it would be a burden on PCs right now, not to mention consoles. However, a controlled, single target rollback could be added, WoW successfully pulled off that with Mages doing just that (on an 8s rollback though).

 

- "AoE that slows enemies and makes them explode". By AoE you mean A) an caster-originated single-cast radial AoE (Nova's MP) B)A spell that you cast on a determined location and causes it's effect there, C) A spell that you cast at a determined location and lingers causing it's effect on enemies that come after the cast? You can have mechanically similar abilities, remember that these don't exist in a vacuum, but are part of a full set and that proper wording can change a lot.

For example, I made a rework for Ash in which his abilities are: 1)A simple skill-shot 2)A grenade-like spell 3)Teleport+AoE short CC and 4)Duration Stance Ultimate like Old Hysteria

  Reveal hidden contents

 

-"King Arthur's Sword Frame". "Chinese Deity frame". "Greek Titan Frame". A little bit of copying always plays part on anything. Another example: Scorpions say the Grineer equivalent of "Get over here" when they use their grappling hooks, sounds familiar? There's a fine line between "copy" and "inspiration" and "homage".

I'm being vague with the nova comparison because no matter which it does, that's an identical end result to strength build molecular prime.

 

One other thing to consider is that a power must NEVER negatively impact an ally directly.

[[DE]Danielle]

Beautiful! Featured:) 

[Urlan]

Truly, synergy is not something that tends to last long; Excalibur's old Radial Javelin plus the old Mag Bullet Attractor that was synergy akin to a RPG combo attack! But otherwise, nice idea for a framework though it might be difficult to design for conclave with them balanced separately, maybe in time though.

[Freeshooter92]

No, internal synergy. As in, synergy in its own powers. As an example, consider how Loki can cast decoy, and then switch teleport on that decoy. They synergize to help you get around.

[Nazrethim]

Another examples of synergy would be Rhino and Ivara:

Rhino Charge: Deals damage. Does it's job.

Iron Skin: Absorbs damage. Does it's job.

Rhino Charge with Iron Skin active: Blast procs on whoever you hit.

 

Ivara's Quiver: Does it's multiple jobs

Navigator: Allows you to control projectiles. Does it's job.

Navigator+Quiver: Lead the Quiver's arrow to desired location without direct LoS.

[ClatterHD3]

U know just seeing this, I actually thought of a combo. Nyx and Vauban 4? Nyx draws fire and Vauban pul them all in the middle to her, so when she gets out of 4, every thing around her takes dmg, rather than some surviving and some hiding from the blast. Sounds cool?

[Rehtael7]

3 hours ago, ClatterHD3 said:

U know just seeing this, I actually thought of a combo. Nyx and Vauban 4? Nyx draws fire and Vauban pul them all in the middle to her, so when she gets out of 4, every thing around her takes dmg, rather than some surviving and some hiding from the blast. Sounds cool?

The range on Nyx's 4 is MUCH larger than Vauban's 4, and the problem with the two of them is that Vauban's 4 prevents enemies in it from damaging Nyx's sphere. If you want to discuss strategy, head on over to the appropriate forum. But like the OP said, the synergy they're talking about is NOT between frames, but one frame's abilities synergizing together, like Saryn's reworked abilities.

[ClatterHD3]

45 minutes ago, Rehtael7 said:

The range on Nyx's 4 is MUCH larger than Vauban's 4, and the problem with the two of them is that Vauban's 4 prevents enemies in it from damaging Nyx's sphere. If you want to discuss strategy, head on over to the appropriate forum. But like the OP said, the synergy they're talking about is NOT between frames, but one frame's abilities synergizing together, like Saryn's reworked abilities.

Oh. In that case, Limbo is a great example i think. The ability to walk into rift and add ur chosen enemies (kavats, wink wink) into the rift by ur will is amazing. 

[Lactamid]

While it might not be a thing for everyone, I think it's important to "sell the frame". Make people believe it could possibly exist. Some technologic or just logic background to the skills other than "space magix" usually makes me more inclined to upvote and like the frame than just loose things taken because it looks cool.

Technology > magic.

 

Ex.
Nekros raises the bodies of slain enemies. (Notice that this isn't explained very much but still works).

vs.

Nekros claims the souls of slain enemies and pocesses their bodies. (With the mention of "souls" it becomes more abstract and slips more into fantasy and away from sci-fi).
 

EX.2

Vampire: "Frame" drinks the blood of his enemies to regain health. (This sounds more like a fantasy Vampire or beast).

vs.

Vampire: "Frame" forcibly extracts living matter to repair his/her own wounds.  (This could plausibly be some kind of medical technology used offensively).

 

This is of course just my personal taste, but you still might want to choose your wording in order to really get at what your concept does, why and how.

Perhaps it is a savage frame and you want it to roll around in the corpses of your enemies absorbing their flesh through its' pores? Or you perhaps you want your frame to have a finisher move that goes with the otherwise honourable style of it; Frame uses "coup de grace" to target weak spots on already damaged enemies dealing XXX additional damage.

[Rehtael7]

I'm gonna copypasta from a different thread real quick...

Alright, a list of considerations for warframe powers...

• Power cost
• Power strength
• Power duration
• Power range
• Power base stats
• Power synergy (How it works that that warframe's other powers)
• Power animations
• How that power interacts with current tilesets
• Power originality (Does it do something that another frame already does?)
• Power versatility (Does it work against some factions more than others?)
• Power power (Is it too strong? Is it too weak?)
• Power lore (Does it do something that conflicts with Warframe's lore?)
• Power practicality (Does it do something that is just too difficult to make happen?)
• Power involvement (Does the player need to have any skill to use it?)
• Power augments (Only if you've figured out all of the above)
• Power PvP stats (Only if you've figured out all of the above.)

[(PSN)appretice]

I think it's also safe to say that the design should also be focused around a bipedal humanoid frame. An 8 legged spider frame will likely be overlooked because it requires new rigging (and is potentially lore breaking, only the War Within shall tell). Just as with conclave, always be aware of the technical hurdles that your frame's design would force the developers to jump. 

Edited August 19, 2016 by (PS4)appretice

[Nazrethim]

On 19/8/2016 at 1:36 AM, (PS4)appretice said:

I think it's also safe to say that the design should also be focused around a bipedal humanoid frame. An 8 legged spider frame will likely be overlooked because it requires new rigging (and is potentially lore breaking, only the War Within shall tell). Just as with conclave, always be aware of the technical hurdles that your frame's design would force the developers to jump. 

An 8 legged spider frame may be a lot of work. Though a Centaur-like frame could be worked on if it uses a humanoid upper body with a Zanuka/Hyenna-like lower body, as the animations for those are already on the game.

[(PSN)appretice]

On Tuesday, August 30, 2016 at 6:15 PM, Nazrethim said:

An 8 legged spider frame may be a lot of work. Though a Centaur-like frame could be worked on if it uses a humanoid upper body with a Zanuka/Hyenna-like lower body, as the animations for those are already on the game.

Yes but then you are given momentum and park our animation issues. How would bullet jumping work or would this framed not have bullet jump. Zanuka doesnt have these animations and I highly doubt that well established staples like parkour are going to be reworked or completely thrown out for this frame. Any frame made will have to comply with the basic (albeit unwritten) laws of warframe design.

[Nazrethim]

12 hours ago, (PS4)appretice said:

Yes but then you are given momentum and park our animation issues. How would bullet jumping work or would this framed not have bullet jump. Zanuka doesnt have these animations and I highly doubt that well established staples like parkour are going to be reworked or completely thrown out for this frame. Any frame made will have to comply with the basic (albeit unwritten) laws of warframe design.

It wouldn't be that complicated. Hyennas and Zanuka can cling to walls. To give you an idea of how bulletjump animation could work. Remember that "jump into space" animation when you transition from foot to archwing in Jordas Golem Assassination? well, put that torso animation above a Hyenna jumping and you get a possible bulletjump animation (albeit without the spinning) with a few tweaks.

[(PSN)appretice]

On Friday, September 02, 2016 at 11:52 AM, Nazrethim said:

It wouldn't be that complicated. Hyennas and Zanuka can cling to walls. To give you an idea of how bulletjump animation could work. Remember that "jump into space" animation when you transition from foot to archwing in Jordas Golem Assassination? well, put that torso animation above a Hyenna jumping and you get a possible bulletjump animation (albeit without the spinning) with a few tweaks.

But speaking purely out of rationality, it's highly improbable that a non bipedal warframe will exist, it just muddies the water for both the lore and gameplay mechanics.

 

I imagine Ordis having to make adjustments to the extraction port on the liset to fit two extra limbs and it seems like more work than he's physically capable of.

Edited September 4, 2016 by (PS4)appretice

[Nazrethim]

2 hours ago, (PS4)appretice said:

But speaking purely out of rationality, it's highly improbable that a non bipedal warframe will exist, it just muddies the water for both the lore and gameplay mechanics.

 

I imagine Ordis having to make adjustments to the extraction port on the liset to fit two extra limbs and it seems like more work than he's physically capable of.

Oh of course. There's a lot more stuff to consider. I was just pointing out that it's doable.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

https://m.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/4vf6ib/ash_rework/

ash rework here ^ towards the bottom of the page in the link. makes me hopeful 

[Nazrethim]

21 minutes ago, (XB1)FCastle74 said:

https://m.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/4vf6ib/ash_rework/

ash rework here ^ towards the bottom of the page in the link. makes me hopeful 

Read it, seems a bit lacking, Specially if you have read this thread and understood it's purpose. This is more of a PSA than a rework thread. ;3

[Nazrethim]

BY THE POWER OF NEKROS COMMEND THEE TO RISE!