How exactly can a weapon be abused? What makes abusing different from simply using?

[Omnipower]

3 minutes ago, -CM-DarkSyndrome said:

I see all these people saying that the Synoid Simulor and mirage combo is abusing. No, I see it as playing smart. As my late grandfather used to say. Work smart, Not hard. The synoid simulor+mirage is only going to take you so far. it's not like Mag+Polrize+Magnetize where you can face lv 300 enemies(before the recent nerf again). If you plan out things and work accordingly to your plan it makes things that may seem hard to there people really easy to you. It's like when you have these 4 man squads who make a joke of high lvl defence missions fighting mobs in the 500lvl+ range. Are they abusing because they take good frames and pair them up with great senergy and make the job easy? No they are working smart to help reduce the difficulty. All I have to say lol.

ahh you said what i couldnt for the life of me put into words XD

[Rakosta_Kai]

When the item/frame/mechanic is so easy and effective that nothing else needs to be used... Then abuse of the item/mechanic is probable.

It's the Law of the Instrument, "If the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail." ...in so many words.

While these items aren't the only tool in player's boxes, it is typically one of the more effective ones— so it's the one that gets used most.

 

The problem, of course, is that since most of the missions people go on aren't that challenging... They have a habit of sucking the air out of the room for other players.

When (not if) the Simulor gets nerfed it will be entirely due to players dragging that gun into any and every mission they can and monopolizing the content in it. 

 

Edited August 16, 2016 by Padre_Akais
Capital I

[Doom_Bunny]

1 hour ago, PrimeDCookieMonstah said:

Then ember + sancti tigris also is "mechanically broken".

Wof and the nuke on syndicate weapons are two mechanically broken things. When I say mechanically broken I mean Wof is overpowered for almost everything up to level 50ish then the damage drops off hard. Syndicate nuke is for some reason better then most of our cc abilities; it provides buffs and additional affects, scales well into late games, and only needs experience to power it. Putting these two broke things together trivials content to an extent where Wof falls off. If you wanted to really trivialize where Ember can, you could take an Ignis. Due it's incredible ability to go through walls it can clear entire rooms around the same levels as Wof.

1 hour ago, Zyrgi said:

Sure, Mirage + Simulor can trivialize some content, but I wouldn't call it abuse. It's just efficient way of dealing with enemies.

....and trivializing content to the point that most of the people you play with can't do much in terms of playing.

1 hour ago, Zyrgi said:

Besides Mirage is very fragile and can easily be downed in return.

 That is if the enemy can touch her. Synoid is a cc weapon with decent range and tons of damage, it's only held back by the player's build. Which means that so long as you keep a decent range in late game (when then enemies stop instantly dying from the synoid spam) Mirage will survive.

The thing about these type of combos is that they all trivialize content to an extent that is rarely met. Even if we had a place now that challenged these builds, people would still bring them to the rest of the game, trivializing the content and making hard for anyone else to play.

I define "abuse" of weapons/frames as building for one trick. It does trivialize content but renders the frame/weapon useless when doing anything other than that trick. For example a player could build for Ash's fourth but during the down time they're practically defenseless (without outside help). Meaning swarming factions can easily kill Ash upon finishing the animation.

Edited August 16, 2016 by Postal_pat

[Kaotyke]

1 hour ago, Syln said:

if you wield a synoid simulor and shoot, you are already abusing it :3

Reminds me of when a guy asked for help with The Second Dream in Region, me and another dude voluntered to help, on a whim, I decided to use the S.Simulor.

The 3rd dude, the moment he saw me playing it, said "I dont play with people who use s.simulor." and quit the mission.

Like... dafaq? You chose to help someone and then leave them hanging because one of the dudes who aslo came to help is using a type of weapon? Me and the Host were quiet at loss of words.

Edited August 16, 2016 by Venom-Snake

[Hemmo67]

1 minute ago, Venom-Snake said:

"I dont play with people who use s.simulor."

i remember this happening to my squad aswell when somebody was using s.simulor (don't remember either of their names) but still :|

[LunarEdge7]

3 minutes ago, Postal_pat said:

Wof and the nuke on syndicate weapons are two mechanically broken things. When I say mechanically broken I mean Wof is overpowered for almost everything up to level 50ish then the damage drops off hard. Syndicate nuke is for some reason better then most of our cc abilities; it provides buffs and additional affects, scales well into late games, and only needs experience to power it. Putting these two broke things together trivials content to an extent where Wof falls off. If you wanted to really trivialize where Ember can, you could take an Ignis. Due it's incredible ability to go through walls it can clear entire rooms around the same levels as Wof.

....and trivializing content to the point that most of the people you play with can't do much in terms of playing.

 That is if the enemy can touch her. Synoid is a cc weapon with decent range and tons of damage, it's only held back by the player's build. Which means that so long as you keep a decent range in late game (when then enemies stop instantly dying from the synoid spam) Mirage will survive.

The thing about these type of combos is that they all trivialize content to an extent that is rarely met. Even if we had a place now that challenged these builds, people would still bring them to the rest of the game, trivializing the content and making hard for anyone else to play.

I define "abuse" of weapons/frames as building for one trick. It does trivialize content but renders the frame/weapon useless when doing anything other than that trick. For example a player could build for Ash's fourth but during the down time they're practically defenseless (without outside help). Meaning swarming factions can easily kill Ash upon finishing the animation.

Yep. In short, sure, you can bring it into endgame content regularly, where everything is really risky. Not ALWAYS into places where it feels like childs' play, and yet your teammates don't even get to kill much.

[Syln]

5 minutes ago, Venom-Snake said:

Reminds me of when a guy asked for help with The Second Dream in Region, me and another dude voluntered to help, on a whim, I decided to use the S.Simulor.

The 3rd dude, the moment he saw me playing it, said "I dont play with people who use s.simulor." and quit the mission.

Like... dafaq? You chose to help someone and then leave them hanging because one of the dudes who aslo came to help is using a type of weapon? Me and the Host were quiet at loss of words.

to be honest i hate simulor, i hate its sound, i hate its mechanic and i find it annoyingly efficient (that just make mission boring) but i won't do my drama queen if someone show up with it in a mission, that's just silly ;D

Edited August 16, 2016 by Syln

[LunarEdge7]

5 minutes ago, Venom-Snake said:

Reminds me of when a guy asked for help with The Second Dream in Region, me and another dude voluntered to help, on a whim, I decided to use the S.Simulor.

The 3rd dude, the moment he saw me playing it, said "I dont play with people who use s.simulor." and quit the mission.

Like... dafaq? You chose to help someone and then leave them hanging because one of the dudes who aslo came to help is using a type of weapon? Me and the Host were quiet at loss of words.

I guess he should've checked others' weapons before he joined in the mission.

If he can't even leave because of that, in your opinion, then there must be others with this similar opinion.

Another reason to why it's hard to find a custom team with no Simulor/Tonkor.

[Yzjdriel]

Soo....  owning a Sancti Tigris is automatically abusing game mechanics now?

I must admit I'm a bit baffled by the "X+Y is OP therefore abuse" thing, since the Sancti Tigris by itself is overpowered as hell.

Meanwhile, Ember's Accelerant and Madurai's laser synergize obscenely well.  That's good clean fun as far as I'm concerned because of the old-MMO-style cooldown attached.

[Xaero]

2 hours ago, Hemmo67 said:

soooo does this mean that because i am able to one shoot enemies with vulkar wraith in rapid succession i am abusing it? :|

halp me c_c

Most powerful weapons should be tricky to use. Yeah, you are one-shotting everyone with vulkar, but only one kill per shot and you also have to aim. With simulor you just press the button repeatedly without aiming and clear the entire room with a few shots. But if, for example, simulor dealt self-damage, players would not be able to mindlessly spam it.

[Tizodd]

2 hours ago, Redthirst said:

"Abusing" is usually used to refer to weapons or weapon/warframe combos that aren't just powerful(like Nikana Prime), but straight up overpowered, making the entire game a joke. So yeah, if someone is using Mirage+Synoid Simulor, then he's abusing this combo to trivialize the game.

This person said it best imo.

I see other posts from people who are supposedly still "confused", but I have a difficult time taking them seriously.  To me it seems that they're pretending to be ignorant of something that is very obvious.  I'm guessing these are the same people who believe Bladestorm is perfectly fine and doesn't need to be reworked?  Neither did Miasma, Peacemaker, or Shield Polarize for that matter?

It really just seems like selfishness to me.  How is it so difficult to understand that your teammates want to enjoy the game too?  They don't want just watch you obliterate everything?

And before anyone chimes in with stupidness about git gud, or me being jealous...I'm MR21 and have every frame and every weapon I want (I'm not MR22 because I can't stand leveling Archwing).  I have all the mods and primed mods maxed I want as well.  I know what I'm doing and I'm good at it.  But I also understand how boring it is for others if I bring Ash, or Mirage/Simulor and kill everything before they even see it.

[-CM-DarkSyndrome]

13 minutes ago, Postal_pat said:

.

I define "abuse" of weapons/frames as building for one trick. It does trivialize content but renders the frame/weapon useless when doing anything other than that trick. For example a player could build for Ash's fourth but during the down time they're practically defenseless (without outside help). Meaning swarming factions can easily kill Ash upon finishing the animation.

Now I just have to say that Ash Can truly be immortal if you build him right. I have never died with my Ash doing hours and hours of survivals. I don;t really like ash much anymore as I'm done with the "I'm going meta op dmg frame on every thing" I love to play tanky/cc frame now but with the correct build ash is truly immortal lol. On my ash I have a max range build and Arcane tricky on him so I'm almost invisble all the time and when I'm not I can easily pop a smokescreen real quick and because of the range It stun almost all the enemies on the map lol so I can just pop the 4 again. Only time I ever died was trying to revive other players :D. I really can't wait till we can freely remove arcanes. Gonna sell that trickery set. yay plat!

Edited August 16, 2016 by -CM-DarkSyndrome

[Xaero]

1 minute ago, Tizodd said:

And before anyone chimes in with stupidness about git gud, or me being jealous...

The mechanics you listed have nothing to do with 'git gud' thingie :D

[TheGodofWiFi]

2 hours ago, King said:

Abusing a weapon means you're not playing the game like how people want you to.

Literally this. The word "abuse" doesn't really count for anything in a PVE game. In PVP it might do, but for other people to point fingers at you and claim that you're "abusing" a weapon to "trivialise content" have absolutely no right when it is not directly affecting them, such as PVP. It's people who claim that they "have the games best interests at heart" who are the ones who get so up-tight when they see you having fun.

Just the other day I was using the Tonkor to one-shot high level eximus units so my team could survive in the mission just that little bit longer. Next thing I know, I get a PM from a member of the team telling me I wasn't paying the game the right way and that I was "too OP". Dude, I just saved your ungrateful backside and had fun while doing it, who are you to tell me I'm not playing the game properly if I'm actually having fun.

[LunarEdge7]

2 minutes ago, Yzjdriel said:

Soo....  owning a Sancti Tigris is automatically abusing game mechanics now?

I must admit I'm a bit baffled by the "X+Y is OP therefore abuse" thing, since the Sancti Tigris by itself is overpowered as hell.

Meanwhile, Ember's Accelerant and Madurai's laser synergize obscenely well.  That's good clean fun as far as I'm concerned because of the old-MMO-style cooldown attached.

Imo, yes as well. The Tigris Family is too OP. I mean c'mon, 25-30k dmg per shot after being modded..? Even if it's only 2 shots per mag and a 1-2 sec reload..

The syndicate proc dmg will falloff though, and the heal only helps if no one sticks around to make that heal obsolete.

[Kjahla81]

I wouldn't call the Mirage+Simulor an abused combo. Probably more annoying when I first started. In a way I felt cheated out but then realized it wasn't that big of a deal. 

[Tizodd]

13 minutes ago, Yzjdriel said:

Soo....  owning a Sancti Tigris is automatically abusing game mechanics now?

I must admit I'm a bit baffled by the "X+Y is OP therefore abuse" thing, since the Sancti Tigris by itself is overpowered as hell.

Meanwhile, Ember's Accelerant and Madurai's laser synergize obscenely well.  That's good clean fun as far as I'm concerned because of the old-MMO-style cooldown attached.

I wouldn't consider the Sancti Tigris abusing game mechanics because you actually have to aim it; and it's limited in the amount of enemies it kills in one shot.  I do think it's OP in terms of damage, but OP and abuse are two different things.

The Sancti Tigris can one-shot any enemy on the star map with the right mods, more if you have punch-through on it.  Mirage/Simulor, or Tonkor, or Ash can essentially one-shot entire rooms of enemies...that's abuse.  Having to correctly line up a shot and shoot the Tigris involves a bit a skill at least.

Edited August 16, 2016 by Tizodd

[Azrael]

2 hours ago, LazerSkink said:

Is it actually referring to overuse?

Overuse is one of the main signs of an overpowered weapon/frame/combo. If nobody is really using it that much, there's no sense nerfing it no matter how strong it seems. If it's being used all the time then we need to examine it to see if it's overpowered or just popular. Overused weapons and frames are not automatically overpowered, but it's one of the indicators.

 

2 hours ago, LazerSkink said:

Mirage and Synoid Simulor is considered an abused combo, but why? Both just happen to have good synergy with one another (again, not trying to be biased, but I've observed this pair), so does that mean frames paired with weapons that suit their abilities are an abused combo?

It is, in fact, specifically the combo that constitutes the abuse. Players who show up in missions and literally just run in circles spamming M1 without even bothering to see where the enemies are because of an overpowered synergy between mirage and the simulor are abusing a mechanic to trivialize the game for themselves and everyone else.

Here's another example of an overpowered synergy. Right now Smeetas can double syndicate medallions. It's not really overpowered, because the buff that does it is rare, so you're likely to only get one or two extra. But there's a way to abuse that mechanic to accomplish this:

Spoiler

It's not too bad, as abuse goes, because it took a while. But it IS abuse.

[Karamethien]

Abuse is a player judgement.  Exploit is a factual term - it is when one exploits an existing game error.

As far as Player Abusing vs Using a weapon.  Abuse is done while using a weapon.  Just when that switches to abuse is really up to the individual.

Just as some people thinking frat hazing is abuse, there are others who disagree.

I personally find Mirage + Synoid distasteful, as it kills the fun for most other people.  But that is a personal call.

[TheGodofWiFi]

7 minutes ago, Tizodd said:

OP and abuse are two different things.

Since when? Those two are synonymous in the Warframe community.

[Azrael]

12 minutes ago, LorianTheElderPrince said:

for other people to point fingers at you and claim that you're "abusing" a weapon to "trivialise content" have absolutely no right when it is not directly affecting them,

If I'm in your squad trying to enjoy a mission but I can't because you're running around in circles spamming M1 without bothering to see where the enemies are, and somehow even though you aren't even bothering to aim you're killing everything in the map before I can get a shot off, then what you're doing IS directly affecting me. If I brought a bow to that mission then it's now near impossible to aim it through all your vortexes and there's nothing to shoot at anyway because you're killing them in their spawn rooms without even knowing the enemies were there. You're not just trivializing the game for YOU, you're trivializing it for ME, and I have every right to be annoyed about that.

Of course, I say "you" in the metaphorical sense, because you were using the tonkor and not the simulor. Frankly I don't think the tonkor is anywhere near as much of a problem as the simulor. So I'm not complaining about anything you're doing, specifically. I'm just saying that the simulor DOES affect me to the point where I might as well just afk and let the mirage's macro kill everything. I won, mom, yay.

[Inarticulate]

"Abuse" is people throwing around sensationalist wording to get a reaction. It means nothing more than "I don't like how you're using this so stop".

Sure, there might be a well-thought-out argument behind it, but a poor word choice for the sake of getting a reaction is still a poor word choice for the sake of getting a reaction.

[Tizodd]

Delete please.

Edited August 16, 2016 by Tizodd
Read other post wrong.

[DxAdder]

How do you abuse a weapon ? 

DE makes a weapon, I forma it for maximum killing power and use it.

Just because a weapon can out kill some one else's weapon it's abuse ?

It's more like " Im super jealous that you can out kill me and I need to be a special snowflake"

[(XBOX)MK Ultra K11]

3 hours ago, LazerSkink said:

Please keep in mind I am not trying to start any arguments. I'll also try not to have any bias (can't assure you me trying means a guarantee), but rather post honest questions from an (attempted) impartial view. This is a legitimate question I've felt the need to ask due to a somewhat high amount of Synoid Simulor callout threads I've come across as of late;

How is a weapon "abused"?

---

Is it actually referring to overuse? As in many players witness their squad decimate most of the map with a specific weapon effortlessly and now find that weapon to be overpowered? (I'm primarily a solo/duo player, so I'm certainly not speaking from personal experience)

So that means if a weapon is overpowered, aka just very powerful, anyone who uses it is automatically abusing it?

Then what exactly makes abusing different from using? If someone is using a weapon, but it turns out that weapon is overpowered, they're then considered to be abusing it?

As an example, Nikana Prime is very powerful and I use it frequently; am I actually abusing it due to its capabilities? Or is it actually a frame's specific ability/abilities in conjunction with a weapon that makes it "abused"?

Mirage and Synoid Simulor is considered an abused combo, but why? Both just happen to have good synergy with one another (again, not trying to be biased, but I've observed this pair), so does that mean frames paired with weapons that suit their abilities are an abused combo? 

Yes, I understand comparing Nikana Prime and Synoid Simulor, two beyond entirely different weapons is a weak example. However, Synoid Simulor gets a lot of kills and so does Nikana Prime; what makes them different? Is it because Synoid Simulor is an AoE primary with little work required? If so, then that goes back to the first question; how is it abused? Yes, it takes little effort to get an incredibly large amount of kills using it, but does that mean any weapon with little effort to use and incredible power are instantly considered abused the very second one begins killing with it?

---

I apologize if I seem hostile, but please understand that was never my intention. I'm just looking to see what others find in the term "abuse" regarding powerful weapons and what makes one "abused" or "used". And please forgive any possible typos or nonsensical/repeated/redundant word choices, I'm a tad worn out.

I can't really logic this but if I see a weapon that decimates everything on the map and makes all other weapons beside it look worthless to get and everybody uses the weapon then it's abused.