How exactly can a weapon be abused? What makes abusing different from simply using?

[Karamethien]

Wow this thread is loopy.  Just the same argument over and over again.

But we should at least decide on whether the Mirage + Simulor is an intended feature.

Question 1: is Mirage Clones supposed to do the same damage as the main frame.  Is it intended to do Main frame damage x number of clones for any weapon?

pretty sure we can all agree that it is not supposed to.

Which leads to the fact that Simulor allows the clone to do pretty much main frame damage.  There is a damage reduction for the initial shot, which isn't the main damage anyways and the combine damage is unhindered - which is the main damage of the weapon.

If we are agreed on this then it is similiar to 

Loki's clone is not supposed to do dmg.  What if player can equip a new pistol (let say the one that drops a turret) and suddenly the Clone can now drop turrets and start doing damage close the loki frame.  Do you think it is an oversight? or functioning as intended?

If it is an oversight and you ride that OP wave for all it's got, then it is abuse pure and simple.  It isn't even subjective at that point.

[Roachester]

I'm a solo player, so I'm not gonna say a whole lot about this current argument going on, but I just want to address a particular quote that bothered me a little.

5 hours ago, LorianTheElderPrince said:

There is also something seriously wrong with a co-op PVE game, when people start complaining about how other people play. Jeez the dark souls community did less whining about the invasion system and that was PVP.

There is literally no need for players to combine their efforts in most missions except for two types; raid and sorties. Those players are about completing the objective and getting the reward. Who cares about how it's done, or who's in it. The main thing is that you win right?

Thing is, at the end of the day, Warframe is nothing more than a video game, and to my knowledge, most people play video games to have fun. Winning is great and all, and I'm sure it makes everybody feel good about themselves, but if a person is more obsessed with being efficient than actually co-operating in a co-op game, then why even bother joining a group?

There are people out there who want to have fun playing the game with others, be they friends or strangers, but when that one guy shows up with an Ember/Mirage/Ash/etc. with the sole intention of bum rushing the entire tileset, teammates be damned, they do nothing more than rob the others of the experience they're looking for. No matter how you prefer to play the game, there's no denying the fact that acting in such a ridiculous manner is nothing short of unbelievably selfish.

[OzoneSlayer]

Then I guess toxin chroma and The Sancti Tigris is abusing

 

And zephyr and the tonkor is abusing

 

Or a finisher frame and covert lethality is abusing

 

[Marvelous_A]

It's difficult to argue "abusing", but the Mirage+Simulor combo is definitely OP.

HoM is supposed to buff weapons damage by 80% (by 2 holograms), however because of the special mechanism of simulors, Mirage in fact gains at least 300% fusion damage buff, which is not intended. I will classify it as a bug, or at least a design oversight. 

A simulor Mirage doesn't require any skill to play well. Literally no skill is needed. Hell you at least have to aim to play a BS Ash, or using a Tonkor. For simulor you can spam the bullets to the ground yet still doing lots of damage. 

[DecoyShadow]

Allow me to pose a situation:Spores+Any OP toxin Weapon.

you take a very simple toxin transfer mechanic and make it feel like a 40meter bioattack.

[saltygr33n]

The way I see it, it's more like, anything that can kill fast or easily (especially if it's Kill stealing, yeah, that's right), is considered abuse.

Edited August 17, 2016 by saltygr33n

[xXx_mtv_xXx]

Mirage clones should be changed to work like Loki clone. Problem solved.

[TheGodofWiFi]

6 hours ago, Xekrin said:

So my fun doesn't matter since I crap on others for having fun their way yet I'm chastised for wanting to have fun too and accused of demanding others play my way while you are basically doing the same thing.  If I don't 'have fun' your way then clearly I'm unimportant.

Okay.  Good luck with that. Nice way to belittle those who don't agree with you.  Don't bother replying as I will not feed you any longer.  

 

I'm not asking others to play any specific way gameplay wise. Play any damn way you want I do not care. Just don't try and spoil other people's fun, whether you think they're OP or not. 

You claim you're oh so laid back about it all and yet you're in the forums complaining.

Edited August 17, 2016 by LorianTheElderPrince

[ThunderZsolt]

15 hours ago, PrimeDCookieMonstah said:

Take this Mirage + Synoid S in lvl 100+ it won't be as good as it is in low-mid level missions.

 

[TheGodofWiFi]

Okay so what about the Zephyr + Tonkor boom combo? Is everyone going to start jumping on that and say it's abuse? I mean it's the same as the Simulor, point it at he nearest wall the enemy is standing at and boom, dead. The grenades explode on impact. Is that OP and abuse then?

[-CCC-Secret]

3 hours ago, Roachester said:

I'm a solo player, so I'm not gonna say a whole lot about this current argument going on, but I just want to address a particular quote that bothered me a little.

Thing is, at the end of the day, Warframe is nothing more than a video game, and to my knowledge, most people play video games to have fun. Winning is great and all, and I'm sure it makes everybody feel good about themselves, but if a person is more obsessed with being efficient than actually co-operating in a co-op game, then why even bother joining a group?

There are people out there who want to have fun playing the game with others, be they friends or strangers, but when that one guy shows up with an Ember/Mirage/Ash/etc. with the sole intention of bum rushing the entire tileset, teammates be damned, they do nothing more than rob the others of the experience they're looking for. No matter how you prefer to play the game, there's no denying the fact that acting in such a ridiculous manner is nothing short of unbelievably selfish.

But what if I find running an Ember that kills any low level within it's range fun? Others don't like that but I find it fun. I only use Ember solo now, or with friends that don't mind me using her, because of those that don't like me running her. Kinda kills my fun doesn't it?

I do agree with Mirage and S. Simulor combo being a bit too OP. Maybe having the clone orbs not stack with main orbs? I mean it's ok for me to see a Mirage having fun spamming LMB. It doesn't ruin my fun THAT MUCH. At least I don't wanna ruin his by telling him to stop playing the game his way. Now if EVERYONE I meet were running that same build THEN I would just hate it. Right now I rarely see anyone with that combo on public runs.

[Vali]

TBH there is some balance with Sancti Tigris and Tonkor, being you only have 1-2 shots, you suffer from pellet spread from the Sancti Tigris and lobbing from the Tonkor, unless used at point blank which limits you to use tanks for high leveled content. Jetstream and reload mods/toxic Chroma sorta alleviate this, but not to a completely broken state.

The Mirage+Simulor issue is that the merging of the orbs aren't scaled down for the clones. Your damage output will be much higher than with using any other weapon. This seems to be an unintended synergy, which without the damage out reduction from clones makes the simulor pretty much have x5 DPS, which is stupidly broken. 

[Roachester]

3 minutes ago, secret9005 said:

But what if I find running an Ember that kills any low level within it's range fun? Others don't like that but I find it fun. I only use Ember solo now, or with friends that don't mind me using her, because of those that don't like me running her. Kinda kills my fun doesn't it?

If that's the sort of thing you find fun, then by all means, take Ember and burn the world to the ground. However, you can't take that kind of self-serving gameplay into a PuG and not expect your teammates to get angry with you. A lot of people choose to play with a team because they want to play as a team. If you take that away from them, whether you're doing it intentionally or not, then I hate to say it, but you're the problem here, not them. 

Of course, if you are doing it intentionally, that just makes it even worse.

20 minutes ago, secret9005 said:

I do agree with Mirage and S. Simulor combo being a bit too OP. Maybe having the clone orbs not stack with main orbs? I mean it's ok for me to see a Mirage having fun spamming LMB. It doesn't ruin my fun THAT MUCH. At least I don't wanna ruin his by telling him to stop playing the game his way. Now if EVERYONE I meet were running that same build THEN I would just hate it. Right now I rarely see anyone with that combo on public runs.

It's great that Synoid Mirage users don't cut into your fun that much, but the case is different for everybody. When you play with a random group of people, you don't HAVE to play the way they want you to -- in fact, there's really nothing they can do to force you. That being said, by choosing to turn the entire map into your own personal graveyard, you run the insanely high risk of ruining the mission for somebody else; a teammate that wanted to do something other than watch you play the game for them.

There really is no "I" in "Team". It's an old-fashioned statement, but it's still an important one to consider when going into a co-op game.

[-CCC-Secret]

@Roachester It really is hard to please everyone. If I run Ash people might hate me for using Bladestorm. When I run Banshee people will hate me for being too "weak".

People just have different tastes. I guess the easiest thing to do is go with people who think like you and don't complain too much about stuff.

Edited August 17, 2016 by secret9005

[Roachester]

10 minutes ago, secret9005 said:

@Roachester It really is hard to please everyone. If I run Ash people might hate me for using Bladestorm. When I run Banshee people will hate me for being too "weak".

People just have different tastes. I guess the easiest thing to do is go with people who think like you and don't complain too much about stuff.

I don't disagree with you. Like I said, you're free to use whatever you want, and there's nothing anybody can do to stop you. In the end, the responsibility falls on each individual player to find their own fun, even if it means going so far as to avoid other people entirely.

Should it be that way? Probably not, but that's just how it is, and it's part of the reason why we see so many arguments about things like this.

[(PSN)obsidiancurse]

8 hours ago, Xekrin said:

So my fun doesn't matter since I crap on others for having fun their way yet I'm chastised for wanting to have fun too and accused of demanding others play my way while you are basically doing the same thing.  If I don't 'have fun' your way then clearly I'm unimportant.

Okay.  Good luck with that. Nice way to belittle those who don't agree with you.  Don't bother replying as I will not feed you any longer.  

No, there is one vital, fundamental difference, choice.

The game gives you all the tools you need to play with like minded people, friends lists, recruiting chat, clans etc. if the current meta upsets you, you can avoid it, you have that choice.

Your way however negates choice, you want the other persons playstyle nerfed/removed just because you don't agree with it. Sure it can impact your fun but only if you let it, the choice is still there for you, your fun is still in your own hands. The other guy isn't complaining about your style, nor is be asking for it to be removed, Hek he is just using the tools the game gave and probably has no idea he is even upsetting you.

[SinergyX]

21 minutes ago, (PS4)obsidiancurse said:

No, there is one vital, fundamental difference, choice.

The game gives you all the tools you need to play with like minded people, friends lists, recruiting chat, clans etc. if the current meta upsets you, you can avoid it, you have that choice.

Did you say the same about Valkyr and Hysteria? She wasnt even meta, it was the ability itself, why couldnt they just 'avoid it' and move on?

Face it, every single mirage uses synoid - there is no other frame currently that have that locked-up weapon setup as mirage.

Just like the other said, what about Tonky and Zephyr? I've been back with this game for about 2 months now, do a huge number of missions, yesterday for the VERY VERY first time in all those public missions.. i saw a zephyr. Even if she was the most easy deadly combo around, nobody uses zephyr anyway.

 

Edited August 17, 2016 by SinergyX

[TheGodofWiFi]

10 minutes ago, SinergyX said:

Face it, every single mirage uses synoid.

I don't and nether do a lot of people. Don't say stuff like that unless you have actual physical evidence to back it up.

 

10 minutes ago, SinergyX said:

Just like the other said, what about Tonky and Zephyr? I've been back with this game for about 2 months now, do a huge number of missions, yesterday for the VERY VERY first time in all those public missions.. i saw a zephyr. Even if she was the most easy deadly combo around, nobody uses zephyr anyway.

And if the Simulor gets nerfed, what do you think people will start doing? Go to the Zephyr + Tonkor combo. People here are going on the principle of "It's too OP therefore it should be nerfed. Well since we're on that railroad, why not nerf the Tonkor and Zephyr while we're at it? I mean it's too OP right? One-shotting every enemy in the game. 

 

29 minutes ago, (PS4)obsidiancurse said:

No, there is one vital, fundamental difference, choice.

The game gives you all the tools you need to play with like minded people, friends lists, recruiting chat, clans etc. if the current meta upsets you, you can avoid it, you have that choice.

Your way however negates choice, you want the other persons playstyle nerfed/removed just because you don't agree with it. Sure it can impact your fun but only if you let it, the choice is still there for you, your fun is still in your own hands. The other guy isn't complaining about your style, nor is be asking for it to be removed, Hek he is just using the tools the game gave and probably has no idea he is even upsetting you.

You sir, deserve kudos. I wish I could upvote comments more than once.

Edited August 17, 2016 by LorianTheElderPrince

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

The only way it is abusing it is if the weapon is glitched, and you are purposely taking advantage of that, such as Tonkor + Zephyr. Anyone that tells you otherwise is just salty and should be ignored. If they find it problematic enough then they can simply leave your squad.

[Ditto132]

Well I did spent 2hrs to read through all the posts before mine, do some researching and analysis, format for readability and be as objective and factual as I could before posting. So I really appreciate people that bother to read and understand my posts.

13 hours ago, (XB1)Bortis Badtouch said:

ah logic in the mist, careful though, people are going to disagree with logic

If we don't use logic for discussion, what should we use?
Don't people think that most posts are rather meaningless that only spread false/misleading information and hate/aggression when they posted like they are sending SMS message based mostly on their current mood?

13 hours ago, Redthirst said:

It's an improper use if usage of certain weapons/frames/combos is detrimental to other players' enjoyment of the game. Weapons/frames/combos that allow you to clear entire rooms full of enemies with a few shots destroy the experience of other players. And with how mostly shallow gameplay of Warframe is, killing enemies composes most of the experience.

From the perspective of the player not enjoying the game, it seem like the weapons/frames/combos are being abused.
When you are not enjoying the game due to other player's playstyle, I don't see it as improper usage. It is just overused due to its efficiency.
To be honest, Warframe gamplay is rather deep due to lot of community feedbacks and changes.

10 hours ago, Atlas.0-5 said:

The minute a scoreboard shows up in a CO-OP game its no longer Cooperative

Sad but true.

 

I view it as statistic board, showing how much kills you contributed to the team, how much you revived your teammates and the amount of loots you picked up. You win as a team.
Those data requires context to be meaningful. For example, it could be that the most kills player was killing using Soma with support from a Banshee using Sonar and Sound Quake for crowd control.

[Redthirst]

2 minutes ago, Ditto132 said:

From the perspective of the player not enjoying the game, it seem like the weapons/frames/combos are being abused.
When you are not enjoying the game due to other player's playstyle, I don't see it as improper usage. It is just overused due to its efficiency.

It's just semantics at this point. Abused or overused, call it however you want, the fact of the matter is that a few weapons are much more efficient than the rest, which is especially jarring for a game that hinges entirely on diversity.

 

5 minutes ago, Ditto132 said:

To be honest, Warframe gamplay is rather deep due to lot of community feedbacks and changes.

Feedback and changes don't suddenly make gameplay deep. At its core, most missions are boiled down to you killing enemies. And most enemies are bullet sponges that you just have to shoot until they die. The maps are faceless and non-interactive. And instead of game encouraging people to try out different weapons and builds, we have some weapons which are used a lot more than others.

[Ditto132]

14 minutes ago, Redthirst said:

It's just semantics at this point. Abused or overused, call it however you want, the fact of the matter is that a few weapons are much more efficient than the rest, which is especially jarring for a game that hinges entirely on diversity.

 

Feedback and changes don't suddenly make gameplay deep. At its core, most missions are boiled down to you killing enemies. And most enemies are bullet sponges that you just have to shoot until they die. The maps are faceless and non-interactive. And instead of game encouraging people to try out different weapons and builds, we have some weapons which are used a lot more than others.

Yup. Just like how there are rich and poor people, can't really do much to change that fact.

Having simplistic gameplay core doesn't mean that the overall gameplay is not deep.
Most of the great games are successful due to their simple but effective core. (In the game industry, we focus on having solid and polished core before introducing additional elements.)
Pokemon game core is expanded from simplistic Rock-paper-scissors.

Warframe have similar core.
Similarly, pokemon encourages people to try out different monsters (Gotta catch'em all) but we still have monsters which are used a lot more than others.
People have preferences and they are given choices, it is up to them if they wanted to explore and try out different approach.
Pokemon can learn some limited skill/attacks. Similarly, frames/weapons can be modded with limited mods. Both games offer diversity, but both would at certain point converges to a popular set of preferences.
I agree that the current enemy scaling is not perfect, it was initially not really intended to go beyond such high level content(just like how Moore's Law couldn't hold anymore).

[DSpite]

A Synoid Simulor that would be "used":

* The orbs have a max count. Lets just 12 just to pick a number. You can have 4 Vortexes up with 3 orbs in each or 3 vortexes with 4 or 2 with 6 orbs. You start anymore and one other Vortex snuffs out. This means you have to manage your vortexes.

Being "abused":

* No max count, so you put it on Mirage, who automatically creates multi-orb vortexes from Multi-Shot and her mirrors, and just run straight ahead creating entire lines of vortexes non-stop everywhere.

 

One system requires thinking, one does not.

 

Edited August 17, 2016 by DSpite

[Redthirst]

10 minutes ago, Ditto132 said:

Yup. Just like how there are rich and poor people, can't really do much to change that fact.

Real world is different from video games. In video games, developers are gods who can change any fact, provided they have the desire and the skills required.

 

11 minutes ago, Ditto132 said:

Warframe have similar core.

Which doesn't change the fact that most mission types are slight variations of "kill everything"(granted, it was getting better, but the progress is slow) and the map design is uninteresting(maps look cool, but they don't play very well).

As for core, damage system is fine on paper, but it's poorly implemented.

Current Warframe is a deeply flawed game, that can become truly incredible if those flaws are addressed.

[TheGodofWiFi]

1 minute ago, Lord_Azrael said:

Here's one: 1

Here's another: 2

And one more for good measure: 3

1. Do Vortexs block your shots like Forsts bubbles? No. I know people who actually don't complain at all when they have a Spamulor in their squad because they are constantly moving from one area to the next and moving beyond the vortexs.

2. I have already addressed that:

1 hour ago, LorianTheElderPrince said:

Why is your fun more important than the Mirage's fun? It can go both ways. They aren't doing anything illegal, they're enjoying themselves which is the whole damn point of a video game. Not every single player is an inconsiderate #$&(% and I'm sorry, but even if you do nerf the Simulor, there will always be douchebags. They aren't going anywhere. They'll find different ways to be douches.

3. Same principle with Ember's WoF. If *generic you* brings an Ember and just spams WoF running around the map passively burning everything to crisp, you are also taking away other peoples fun. Yet she's not getting any nerf is she? Neither do I want her to get one, as there are people who just use WoF in solely an realy enjoy without annoying other people.

14 minutes ago, Lord_Azrael said:

And then, of course, there's the fact that the combo is not only incredibly powerful but has the lowest skillcap of and setup in the game. No aiming, skill, or situational awareness required. just click M1 while running in circles. At least WoF takes energy...

This last bit is the sort of thing you would say to a teacher if you were caught out doing something bad. "Well at least WoF costs energy" Really? That like me saying "Well at least the Simulor consumes ammo."