Nullifiers the death of WF

[Shifty_Shuffler]

6 hours ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

Yeah but using them is a massive waste of time which is unfun.

Playing computer games is a massive waste of time :P

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

Just now, Shifty_Shuffler said:

Playing computer games is a massive waste of time :P

Only if its not fun.

[_Vortus_]

@(PS4)Final_Dragon01 Apparently you got alot out of my comment that wasn't intended.  So, Im going to simplify it for you.

The first part of my comment was aimed at the OP and the dramatic thread title.   Players that leave the game over an enemy in the game they don't like want to leave anyway and are looking for an excuse to leave in a dramatic fashion.   The second part was aimed at players that have issues dealing with Nullifiers and that they need to practice more against them,   The second comment is constructive, suggesting practice, far more than the sarcastic "git gud" of yours.   I wasn't being sarcastic just making a statement.   If you have no problems with them then it likely wasn't aimed at you.    As to sniper weapons, you have to take the good with the bad.   No need to introduce extra drama where there isn't any.

As to myself, I do find them interesting and think they improve the game.   Nothing is wrong with Nullifiers as they are, they do their job, forcing players to alter tactics. 

 

 

 

[Praxxor]

15 hours ago, Sebrent said:

@BlackCoMerc

I covered that in "grineer / infestation" missions. I do not count fissures as such since you get whatever the fissure wants to give you.

I wouldn't consider fissures "vet content". They are quite accessible to anyone IMO.

Additionally, if you're having trouble in fissure missions because a Nullifier got you, then the error is between your chair and keyboard as fissures are a cakewalk.

Doing an Axi fissure and having a nullifier cancel your survival abilities because it spawned on your face isn't really something you can easily run away from, most frames die in a couple hits, and if the fissure is on one of the higher-level void missions then it has the old T4 300% damage increase.

None of that is anyhow beneficial for anyone and is simply annoying, it doesn't make the game richer, it limits your gear (you HAVE to have one automatic/fast-firing weapon in arsenal if you don't want to get in the bubble). And as people above said some people have left the game, sure, it's a dumb reason to leave, but it has apparently hurt the game in one way already.

[k05h]

I would so love to pop the nullifier bubble with my Frost freeze ability ... the same way I can pop a snow globe.

That would be so glorious!

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

23 minutes ago, _Vortus_ said:

Apparently you got alot out of my comment that wasn't intended.  So, Im going to simplify it for you.

Okay, cool.  I don't believe you.  What you said separated players into two very clear groups.  What you said left no room for the possibility that nullifiers are actually just that bad regardless of what you think of them.  Everyone knows how to kill nullifiers so I assume anyone who gives advice on that is just being elitist.  But, whatever, that's not the point.

What is the point is that this

29 minutes ago, _Vortus_ said:

Nothing is wrong with Nullifiers as they are, they do their job, forcing players to alter tactics. 

is demonstrably wrong.

Two sentence summary of why:  Nullifiers are easily trivialized and anything that trivializes nullifiers also trivializes everything else, so that's almost exclusively what players run.  There is no variety or altered tactics on a game play level.

48 minutes ago, _Vortus_ said:

As to sniper weapons, you have to take the good with the bad.

Unacceptable.  Those weapons were already disadvantaged there was no reason to make it worse.  I refuse to just deal with it.

34 minutes ago, _Vortus_ said:

forcing players to alter tactics.

This is the worst part of your post.  You didn't say they force 'me' to alter my tactics.  You said 'players.'  This means you like nullifiers because you like that they change the way other people play.  That should be completely irrelevant.  You should be concerned with how nullifiers affect your personal gameplay experience and butt out of mine.  I hate what they do to snipers and weak non-meta frames so, no they are not fine as they are.

[Slaviar]

Nullifiers were created to stop Cerberus rep farms back in U15. It was only reason. They've indeed pushed people out of it though I'm pretty sure if they were added to all faction people would be simply taking their bubbles with high RoF weapons and proceed to press 4 to win. Because that's how campers deal with them. It's people who play actively who suffer. If someone likes shotguns/bows/snipers/heavy pistols and on top of that buff reliant frame Nullifiers are really annoying. Though for buffers still better than Comba.

I thought there are 200+ weapons and 30 frames so I can choose what I want. Apparently not. Apparently I'm expected to screw weapons I like and pick Soma

[BlackCoMerc]

9 hours ago, Troll_Logic said:

And if there were no nullifiers and you played the same missions on the same maps against the same enemies every day, how would things be different?

Before you reply with "But I could play with different warframes and different weapons", you can now.  No one is stopping you from equipping the warframne and weapons you want but you.

BTW, if warframe with nullifiers is

then wouldn't playing against nullifiers with different warframes and weapons be fresh?  New?  Hard?  Challenging?  Interesting and specific?

 

Wrong. Again.

Because playing against Nullifiers us the same. Every time.

Just hold down Fire until bubble poos. Repeat.

Every. Singe. Time.

[Insizer]

12 hours ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

The main problem being that there are builds that trivialize nullifiers which makes builds that don't (I love snipers, but don't use them because everything I run has nullys) a waste of my time.

Yes we are OP but nullifiers have done nothing to curb that.

I flat out disagree that they add any sort of challenge or depth when they can be so easily trivialized.

I liked the game more when I didn't have to always use an anti-nully build.

I fully understand that, and mentioned that to begin with. DE can always do something about low fire rate weapons interactions with null bubbles like raise the damage cap on the bubble for bow and sniper shots, who knows. 

As for adding challenge and depth... yes they are easy to deal with. But for me they are force multipliers because they are priority targets which takes a second or two to deal with (even with a continuous fire weapon). The point when they start adding challenge is when there are more than two on the field and advancing with a few heavy units that can put the hurt on. A single nully is nothing, but with force they are able to repel players. They also prevent the use of clear all abilities which we all love, the abilities which we use as panic buttons when facing crowded situations. That's why I love them, because they allow enemies to push uncomfortably close to us.

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

1 minute ago, Insizer said:

As for adding challenge and depth... yes they are easy to deal with. But for me they are force multipliers because they are priority targets which takes a second or two to deal with (even with a continuous fire weapon). The point when they start adding challenge is when there are more than two on the field and advancing with a few heavy units that can put the hurt on. A single nully is nothing, but with force they are able to repel players. They also prevent the use of clear all abilities which we all love, the abilities which we use as panic buttons when facing crowded situations. That's why I love them, because they allow enemies to push uncomfortably close to us.

I would argue that a group of heavies with nullifiers is not noticeably more difficulty to kill than the same group of heavies without nullifiers.  It is quite easy to stay out of line of sight of the entire group, drop the shield and then nuke or CC the area.  The quanta deals quite nicely with nully shields even when they are stacked 5 deep.

I am glad you like them because I can't fully enjoy the game anymore because they made my favorite weapon class a pointless waste of time.  While snipers are my main issue, I also dislike what nullifiers did to weaker non-meta frame builds.  For me it all comes back to the game was more fun before they were added.  While I do think they should be fixed so they are a positive force.  I also think that removing them temporally would immediately make the game better because they are a net negative.

[BlackCoMerc]

18 minutes ago, Insizer said:

I fully understand that, and mentioned that to begin with. DE can always do something about low fire rate weapons interactions with null bubbles like raise the damage cap on the bubble for bow and sniper shots, who knows. 

As for adding challenge and depth... yes they are easy to deal with. But for me they are force multipliers because they are priority targets which takes a second or two to deal with (even with a continuous fire weapon). The point when they start adding challenge is when there are more than two on the field and advancing with a few heavy units that can put the hurt on. A single nully is nothing, but with force they are able to repel players. They also prevent the use of clear all abilities which we all love, the abilities which we use as panic buttons when facing crowded situations. That's why I love them, because they allow enemies to push uncomfortably close to us.

You know what else allows enemies to push close, and threaten players?

Proper game balance.

And that works in every mission, and without arbitrarily taking away our tools.

Guess that's just too much effort, though...

[Troll_Logic]

1 hour ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Wrong. Again.

Because playing against Nullifiers us the same. Every time.

Just hold down Fire until bubble poos. Repeat.

Every. Singe. Time.

And nullifiers make up 99.9999% of enemies so every mission is the same.

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

19 hours ago, BAY35 said:

Okay, I hate nullifiers as much as everyone else but do we seriously need threads on them EVERY F*CKING DAY? This is getting ridiculous.

Yes, we do. By many different people to the point of forums being unusable for any other discussion. Because that may finally get them to remove nullifiers from the game. 

[Insizer]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

I would argue that a group of heavies with nullifiers is not noticeably more difficulty to kill than the same group of heavies without nullifiers.  It is quite easy to stay out of line of sight of the entire group, drop the shield and then nuke or CC the area.  The quanta deals quite nicely with nully shields even when they are stacked 5 deep.

I am glad you like them because I can't fully enjoy the game anymore because they made my favorite weapon class a pointless waste of time.  While snipers are my main issue, I also dislike what nullifiers did to weaker non-meta frame builds.  For me it all comes back to the game was more fun before they were added.  While I do think they should be fixed so they are a positive force.  I also think that removing them temporally would immediately make the game better because they are a net negative.

I use the Quanta Vandel as my main weapon, I know how easily the bubble evaporate. But I do believe that the idea of nullifying our abilities, evaporating our defensive structures, being able to shield allied enemies from our abilities and the like is a good thing. I'm not arguing that nullies are perfect, the damage cap needs to be tweaked to work better (without making a mod to do it).

1 hour ago, BlackCoMerc said:

You know what else allows enemies to push close, and threaten players?

Proper game balance.

And that works in every mission, and without arbitrarily taking away our tools.

Guess that's just too much effort, though...

True, proper game balance would help, hell it could almost remove the purpose of having nullies all together. I'm not going to argue with that. We are overpowered physical gods that are able to wipe out entire battalions within 10 mins. We need to be weaker or the enemies need to be more durable without adding ridiculous amounts of armor. 

But nullies are hardly arbitrary. Stripping us of our abilities is a good prescription for how overpowered our abilities are, and the damage cap (although it needs tweaking) is a good prescription for how overpowered our guns are. But again, proper balance would fix both of these. However, assuming everything were to become balanced (our abilities, our weapons, our enemies, etc), we have the essence of the nullification. Forcing us to rely on our weapons rather than our abilities is a great curveball to throw at us, a healthy curveball I would say. I see nothing wrong with having a unit which nullifies our abilities nor one that shield its allies from damage and our abilities. People can say "artificial difficulty" and the like, but the basis of nullies are good, even if the game were properly balanced. 

[BlackCoMerc]

4 minutes ago, Insizer said:

I use the Quanta Vandel as my main weapon, I know how easily the bubble evaporate. But I do believe that the idea of nullifying our abilities, evaporating our defensive structures, being able to shield allied enemies from our abilities and the like is a good thing. I'm not arguing that nullies are perfect, the damage cap needs to be tweaked to work better (without making a mod to do it).

True, proper game balance would help, hell it could almost remove the purpose of having nullies all together. I'm not going to argue with that. We are overpowered physical gods that are able to wipe out entire battalions within 10 mins. We need to be weaker or the enemies need to be more durable without adding ridiculous amounts of armor. 

But nullies are hardly arbitrary. Stripping us of our abilities is a good prescription for how overpowered our abilities are, and the damage cap (although it needs tweaking) is a good prescription for how overpowered our guns are. But again, proper balance would fix both of these. However, assuming everything were to become balanced (our abilities, our weapons, our enemies, etc), we have the essence of the nullification. Forcing us to rely on our weapons rather than our abilities is a great curveball to throw at us, a healthy curveball I would say. I see nothing wrong with having a unit which nullifies our abilities nor one that shield its allies from damage and our abilities. People can say "artificial difficulty" and the like, but the basis of nullies are good, even if the game were properly balanced. 

Curve balls are fine. Occasionally.

Please keep in mind that, for vets who are mostly running Sorties and Void Fissures, we see the SAME curveball on as much as 90℅ of the missions we run. Daily.

On any given day, I spend more time NOT being able to rely on powers than using them. Is this REALLY the path we want this game to take? Observe the crutch it's already become:

Farming too easy on Corpus and Void maps? Power immunity.

Captures too easy? Power immunity

Bosses? Power immunity

Stalker? Power immunity

It's already become the only thing DE can be bothered to try in the name of challenge. We're headed for a fun, varied but far too easy mid game followed by a pure gear check, weapons only late game where powers are - at best - utterly unreliable. 

Mine and my girls big worry now is that TWW will grant Grineer a Nullifier like unit. At which point we are done, of course. That's just too much.

We need balance - including frame powers - not band aids and knee jerks.

 

[Sebrent]

@Praxxor Take a look at the latest changes ... Nullifiers spawn with their bubble at zero. Then spawning on top of you with a full bubble is at an end.

@BlackCoMerc From your argument there, it looks like the issue isn't that Nullifiers exist, it's that there isn't something else as well that could spawn instead of them and provide some variation. If that is truly the case, then instead of asking for the removal of Nullifiers which would change your scenarios to from "Power Immunity" to "N/A" ... why not focus on what other units/things could be added to the game to provide more variety. That seems like more useful feedback. I'm sure DE would love to hear ideas on the types of units, etc. people think might help improve gameplay.

Edited August 31, 2016 by Sebrent

[BlackCoMerc]

7 minutes ago, Sebrent said:

@Praxxor Take a look at the latest changes ... Nullifiers spawn with their bubble at zero. Then spawning on top of you with a full bubble is at an end.

@BlackCoMerc From your argument there, it looks like the issue isn't that Nullifiers exist, it's that there isn't something else as well that could spawn instead of them and provide some variation. If that is truly the case, then instead of asking for the removal of Nullifiers which would change your scenarios to from "Power Immunity" to "N/A" ... why not focus on what other units/things could be added to the game to provide more variety. That seems like more useful feedback. I'm sure DE would love to hear ideas on the types of units, etc. people think might help improve gameplay.

I have posted numerous threads detailing limited spawn mini bosses i would love to see replace Nullifiers. Units like Proxy or even a no-gimmick jackal, with power and damage resistance.

For Grineer, use the G3 armor or lech armor and make mini boss versions. Damage and power resistant. Large EHP pool. Cap their spawns. Mix them into normal groups. Give them a damage bonus appropriate to rank.

Best of both worlds: Grunts to destroy, with dangerous mini bosses we have to really sit up and pay attention to.

[Sebrent]

@BlackCoMerc Aye, I think I've seen you post that before, but not as much as I see in the "remove nullifiers" threads ... though that may just be because those threads are like the herp for the forums ... that **** sticks with it :-p

I like all of those ideas as long as it doesn't simply translate into enemies that are simply scaled up versions of other enemies ... as we can get that already ... though there have been some good suggestions on not making us have to go 40+ minutes into survival to get it.

Anything that makes a player have to stop what they are currently doing and do something else in reaction to it, if even for just a brief moment, is something that I will support ... assuming it isn't "create incredibly complex AI" as that is not very cost-effective as far as both dev resources and server resources are concerned.

One idea I've had is to have these dangerous foes, once we have at least a handful of variety from them, be interrupting our missions at least once each mission; if not multiple times. Sort of like Zanuka, G3, and the Stalker do ... but not being simply gunned down by equipped Tenno has soon as they appear.

Heck, it could be interesting to have stronger versions of those "shadow tenno" (sorry, don't know what to actually call them) from the relays appear in missions; perhaps even in equivalent numbers to the squad doing that mission (or double/triple that number). People want their powerful abilities? Fine. Keep using them but now here are some enemies that are going to throw their own right back at you. Best of luck ;-)

[k05h]

29 minutes ago, Sebrent said:

One idea I've had is to have these dangerous foes, once we have at least a handful of variety from them, be interrupting our missions at least once each mission; if not multiple times. Sort of like Zanuka, G3, and the Stalker do ... but not being simply gunned down by equipped Tenno has soon as they appear.

Heck, it could be interesting to have stronger versions of those "shadow tenno" (sorry, don't know what to actually call them) from the relays appear in missions; perhaps even in equivalent numbers to the squad doing that mission (or double/triple that number). People want their powerful abilities? Fine. Keep using them but now here are some enemies that are going to throw their own right back at you. Best of luck ;-)

Or the executioners from the Rathuum arenas. You are right there is enough stuff to throw at a squad. 

[_Vortus_]

3 hours ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

Okay, cool.  I don't believe you.  What you said separated players into two very clear groups.  What you said left no room for the possibility that nullifiers are actually just that bad regardless of what you think of them.  Everyone knows how to kill nullifiers so I assume anyone who gives advice on that is just being elitist.  But, whatever, that's not the point.

What is the point is that this

is demonstrably wrong.

Two sentence summary of why:  Nullifiers are easily trivialized and anything that trivializes nullifiers also trivializes everything else, so that's almost exclusively what players run.  There is no variety or altered tactics on a game play level.

Unacceptable.  Those weapons were already disadvantaged there was no reason to make it worse.  I refuse to just deal with it.

This is the worst part of your post.  You didn't say they force 'me' to alter my tactics.  You said 'players.'  This means you like nullifiers because you like that they change the way other people play.  That should be completely irrelevant.  You should be concerned with how nullifiers affect your personal gameplay experience and butt out of mine.  I hate what they do to snipers and weak non-meta frames so, no they are not fine as they are.

 

There are two groups.   Those that think there is anything wrong with Nullifiers and those that do.   Am I being elitist, maybe.    Though, I am thinking you are not any different.  Your way or the highway.   Anything in the game can and will be trivialized.   So that's what players already do.  You find it unacceptable that sniper weapons have issues taking down nullifiers?   Are you serious?  Curious how you deal with any enemy that requires multiple shots when sniping?   And yes, I said and meant players.  How I attack a group of Corpus/Orokin will change if there is a nullifier in the group.  The same for players I know and game with.   As long as you and I post on a public forum, then the issue at hand is up for discussion.  Part of that discussion is how we play the game.   So butting out isn't an option when what you are trying to change could affect how I play as well.  A part that I like just how it is. 

However, for this thread, I am done as you cannot convince me, I cannot convince you.  So further discussion is pointless. 

 

[Top_Kekkonen]

23 hours ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Nullifiers have gotten a buff, now they instantly kill snow globe among completely trashing all other abilities. They are ridiculously op. Warframe is fun because of powers and abilities...if i wanted to play a 3rd person shooter...i would play destiny.

 

Plz nerf nullys.

I agree.

[(PSN)OmegAmorbis]

I'll be honest, I find Combas to be a lot more obnoxious than nullies in terms of their design. They're harder to kill, deal a ton of damage, but worst of all give absolutely no warning before mitigating your abilities. If you don't spot them within the first two seconds, good luck staying alive for long, particularly if you're using a frame like Mesa or Rhino and your 3 or your 2 goes down, respectively. Nullies, at least, can generally be seen coming from a mile away and even at high levels can be killed fairly easily once their bubble is down.

Nullifiers are definitely annoying as hell, and they have legitimate design issues, but I'd rather see their speed skating brethren removed from the game instead.

[(PSN)Cynicaid]

A game featuring super-powered space ninjas fighting armies has been degraded to a sub-par horde TPS thanks to one enemy.

 

Let's buff them further.

[Sebrent]

These exaggerations of it reducing the game to a horde shooter are just that ... exaggerations.

Those posts provide nothing as they are simply not true. I did today's Sortie with the Corpus Survival Eximus Stronghold during my lunch break since I'm blessed to get to work remotely from home. There were plenty of nullifiers, especially Eximus ones, and plenty of Arctis Eximus to pair with them as well (amongst other Eximus).

Did we complain? Nope. We adapted.

Did we use abilities? Heck yes. I used my abilities almost 200 times and another guy used his well over 200 (I was playing Trinity Prime and providing the energy for the party).

You know what other people did? They used their abilities as well. They also, if they weren't stupid, brought at least one high RoF weapon or planned on using melee to take out Nullifiers (i.e. they didn't take buff-dependent frames or made sure they had the power regen to recast often).

 

You play intelligently and you adapt ... or you die. If you don't like that, go play a game that caters to people that don't want to do these things. Given the current evidence, Warframe is trying to go in the direction of requiring players to actually play intelligent and adapt (i.e. use their brains) as, otherwise, we would not have these units, the streams with DE employees would say something along those lines, and we'd see things like nullifiers removed already. But we don't see that so either put on your big boy pants or go play something else.

 

With nullifiers you do have options. You can bring a high RoF secondary. You can melee them. Your party member(s) can handle them. There are tons of things that can be done.

If you remove things that require players to actually engage their brains while playing, then you make it so there is nothing they can do as if there is nothing to make me stop my 4-spam, AOE spam, or whatever other spam ... it remains stupid easy with no change. That gets monotonous / boring.

Edited August 31, 2016 by Sebrent

[Troll_Logic]

6 hours ago, (PS4)Lord_Gremlin said:

Yes, we do. By many different people to the point of forums being unusable for any other discussion. Because that may finally get them to remove nullifiers from the game. 

So your goal is to whine about them until someone listens?

You actually want to clog up the forums so the forums are unusable until you get what you want?

I am having an robust internal discussion right now trying to determine if the warning point is worth telling you exactly how you are acting.