Nullifiers the death of WF

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

1 hour ago, Troll_Logic said:

You really have no idea of how things work do you?

WF is huge.  Huge.

A tiny percentage of the players even visit the forums.

A smaller percentage even goes to the trouble of posting messages.

An even smaller percentage of those forum members constantly whine about nullifiers.

So your "majority of players" is, and I'm guessing, probably less than a thousandth of one percent.  If that high.

 

1 hour ago, Troll_Logic said:

Many players don't view nullifiers as a mistake.

You realize that in the real world only 1000 or 10000 people are polled to represent the opinions of millions.  I know it is a sample of convenience, but listening to feedback has served DE well in the past so it is reasonable to assume the opinions on the forums fairly accurately represents the opinions of the greater mass.  Also many does not mean most and could be a number as low as 5.

[Troll_Logic]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

You realize that in the real world only 1000 or 10000 people are polled to represent the opinions of millions. 

Yes, but that has been done with scientific accuracy and honed over years.  People are paid big money for accuracy.  That doesn't neccesarily reflect a true analogy to warframe forums.

9 minutes ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

so it is reasonable to assume the opinions on the forums fairly accurately represents the opinions of the greater mass. 

Maybe.  Maybe not.  More than likely not.

10 minutes ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

 Also many does not mean most and could be a number as low as 5.

Could even be lower.  My point is when people proclaim "Nullifiers are a mistake and a band-aid" they aren't speaking for every player  in the warframe universe.  Even though they think they are.

[Sebrent]

1 hour ago, NightElve said:

if you did a bit more digging you would understand that Nullifiers are DE's mistake that they still don't accept, and it's all tied to a huuuuge mess! All this cheese frames, overpowered weapons like Tonkor only get to that level because of mods, that DE keep pumping out for the sake of keeping the player base active while maintaining a constant sink-hole of resources, there is no single frame that can cheese anything in this game, it's the players who invest heavily in those set ups just for DE to nerf everything down again, instead of DE  making a logical step and fix their game core mechanics instead of aimlessly/lazily placing patch up bandages to a bigger issue, the amount of manly hours that a player invests to get their gear to those levels and then ending up fighting this kind of enemies like nullifiers in a cheesy manner is down right disrespectful to the players time. DE themselves introduced this power creep issues in the game and bandaged them with Nullifiers, and it's still upto them to fix everything.

@NightElve You're making the claim so you do the digging. Otherwise, if you think others should dig the proof for your claims ... I'll claim unicorns are real and ask you to get get the proof that they are/aren't. See how that doesn't seem quite right? :-) 

You think it's a huge mess. Others, myself included, think it's good and some tweaks could make it better ... such as more new units with new ways to get us thinking of our feet during fights. Given that the current average number of concurrent players in the past 30 days is 26,523.5 and the peak concurrent players in the past 30 days has been 46,268 ... I don't think it's a huge mess like some of you are making it out to be. Apparently plenty of us are still having fun.

Also, how in the world is trying to challenge a player who has spent time getting gear considered "disrespectful" ?! By that definition you've laid out, the Dark Souls Series is disrespectful of its players, and past, traditional MMOs have been disrespectful to players by making their raids harder and harder despite the great gear the players had already acquired from previous raid content.

... it's just a ridiculous concept.

Many players don't like it when they would have to try to fail in a game in order to fail. The risk of failure adds to the thrill of success.

If you don't want the risk of failure, there are plenty of games out there to suit you ... from Hello Kitty to Minecraft Creative Mode to all sorts of others.

27 minutes ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

You realize that in the real world only 1000 or 10000 people are polled to represent the opinions of millions.  I know it is a sample of convenience, but listening to feedback has served DE well in the past so it is reasonable to assume the opinions on the forums fairly accurately represents the opinions of the greater mass.  Also many does not mean most and could be a number as low as 5.

Yep, and that is why those are presented as "polls", and we often get conflicting results from them due to errors in how the data was collected, bias inserted into the methodology / population / etc. used for the poll. It's the difference between asking about religion in a Baptist Convention and an Atheist Convention.

Same as what I just said to NightElve. If you're going to try to make these claims, then go collect the data on who is actually making these posts complaining about nullifiers as I can tell you that one of the people I always see complaining about it is you, @(PS4)Final_Dragon01. Every single one I've looked at, there you have been complaining along with the same names I saw in the other ones.

In fact, I imagine if you actually did the homework to back up your claim, you would find that it's the same group of people making the same posts on the same topic over and over again. A noisy subset of the whole. And, before you try to make some nonsense point out of it, yes, it's the same people responding to you as well trying to tell you that you are not representative of the entire playerbase, that you're a subset of the playerbase, and that there are options for you with the way the game is currently going ... all of which are facts.

And, I'll mention this again, just like I've done in all the other threads on this dead horse from the same people ... when people are happy with something, they are more prone to spending more time with the thing they're happy with than they are to jump on some forums and discuss it. Inversely, when people are unhappy with something, they are more prone to spend more time on forums complaining about it then they are doing it. Hence why your subset is willing to be so noisy on this topic.

 

Edited September 1, 2016 by Sebrent

[Omnimorph]

On 30 August 2016 at 7:36 PM, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

On top of there power effect, they make slow rof weapons like shotguns, snipers, and bows obsolete.

I think this is the worst element of their bad design.

After 2 years I'm beginning to think the developers have let the game run away with them.  I'm not sure they even know how to fix it now - but they're a great team, so I still have hope.

[13QZXXTTX]

I think this is the third time I had to reply to a similar post and 3rd post in another Nullifer post.

Hint for @(PS4)big_eviljak go for a burst weapon like Kohm or fast firing secondary like the new Askiletto Prime, unless you are a fool, go into bubble with a Tigris Prime.

Let me be clear, I do not like the current state of Nullifier, Corpus Nullifier are a lame excuse for real Corpus Robotics, anyhow, the real problem that was reported by a friend to me is that: Nullfier require weapon of over "specific damage" to pop them in few shot, and high damage weapon like Tigris need to reload again to pop the bubble from the outside.

Now, the real problem is not just ability like Frost's bubble going into play, but possibly every ability your frames has against Nullifer = cancellation.

What can I get people to understand that Nullifer at level 100 with Eximus Cold will ruin your run? Not happening, they can live in their own world.

 

 

Edited September 1, 2016 by DesFrSpace

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

5 hours ago, Sebrent said:

Yep, and that is why those are presented as "polls", and we often get conflicting results from them due to errors in how the data was collected, bias inserted into the methodology / population / etc. used for the poll. It's the difference between asking about religion in a Baptist Convention and an Atheist Convention.

Same as what I just said to NightElve. If you're going to try to make these claims, then go collect the data on who is actually making these posts complaining about nullifiers as I can tell you that one of the people I always see complaining about it is you, @(PS4)Final_Dragon01. Every single one I've looked at, there you have been complaining along with the same names I saw in the other ones.

In fact, I imagine if you actually did the homework to back up your claim, you would find that it's the same group of people making the same posts on the same topic over and over again. A noisy subset of the whole. And, before you try to make some nonsense point out of it, yes, it's the same people responding to you as well trying to tell you that you are not representative of the entire playerbase, that you're a subset of the playerbase, and that there are options for you with the way the game is currently going ... all of which are facts.

I have no homework to do.  The only claim I made was DE listening to feedback has yielded good results in the past so feedback, particularly if there is a lot of it, must be representative of changes to which the greater mass would react positively.  The rest was because Troll_Logic said less than one-thousandth of one percent of players want nullifers removed or changed.  There is no way he can make that claim or in any way prove there is not a majority of players who want nullifiers changed or removed.

For what it is worth(nothing), I believe a majority of players are not concerned enough with how the game could be changed for the better to even have formed an opinion on whether or not nullifiers should be changed or removed.  However, out of the players who have formed that opinion I believe the majority of them do want nullifiers at least changed.  But without any actual evidence there is not much to talk about here, since it is clear you also think you are in the majority.

5 hours ago, Sebrent said:

And, I'll mention this again, just like I've done in all the other threads on this dead horse from the same people ... when people are happy with something, they are more prone to spending more time with the thing they're happy with than they are to jump on some forums and discuss it. Inversely, when people are unhappy with something, they are more prone to spend more time on forums complaining about it then they are doing it. Hence why your subset is willing to be so noisy on this topic.

You would only be correct here if the warframe forums was specifically for talking about nullifiers or making complaints in general.  However, people come to the forums for many different reasons, fan concepts, RP, news, etc. so the cross section of people who see and comment on nulliier threads is not as narrow as you paint it.

[2035]

Umm, melee weapons exist too..... even powers can trim nulliers>>> 

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

6 hours ago, Troll_Logic said:

Maybe.  Maybe not.  More than likely not.

If feedback is not representative of changes that would appease the greater mass, what good is it?  Should DE just ignore feedback?

[(PSN)SergioMApt]

I agree that nullifiers need rework. Make them spawn without bubble like anounced in some recent PC build hot fix seems like a good change that I wait to see on PS4.

About their bubble clipping walls, that sucks but at the same time abilities like "world on fire" do the same... shouldn't those frame abilities be reworked too?

They don't ruin fun for me, honestly, I find more annoying those grineer units or infested ones that throw a fire wave that spreads all over the map and you can't hide from it even behind walls in other room across the map.

[Troll_Logic]

46 minutes ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

Should DE just ignore feedback?

Dude, all feedback is welcome.  However, this below makes zero sense.

51 minutes ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

If feedback is not representative of changes that would appease the greater mass, what good is it?

You don't know that your feedback is "representative of changes that would appease the greater mass" anymore than I know that mine is.

That's the point.  The people whining about nullifiers think their position is the one held by all righteous people.  It isn't.

That's a big reason why the people who are fine with nullifiers are starting to get so annoyed by the anti-nullifier people.  The anti-nullifiers seem think that starting three new threads a day about nullifiers hoping that sheer mentions and annoying behavior on the boards will get them their way.

[(PSN)DBR87]

I can list a handful of enemies I find more troublesome than Nullyfiers. That being said, my most used frames are Mesa, Volt, Saryn, Rhino, Exalibur, Nova, and Nyx in that order. My most used Primaries are Dex Sybaris, Vaykor Hek, Sancti Tigris, Telos Boltor, Dread, Lanka, Vectis, Dera Vandal, and Quanta Vandal.

I get that nullies can be annoying but I seriously think people are making a mountain out of a molehill. Some of my favorite frames have self buff powers that Nullies instantly get rid of but nullies are so easily dispatched by melee weapons, something everyone should have equipped outside of sortie requirements, that I honestly don't see why they are a problem for players. Even still, I have no problem going in with Nova or Volt at full speed with a slide attack to chop at their legs, turn around and pump a twin barrel shot to there face. Obviously it gets more difficult if they are hugging corrupted Bombards and Heavy gunners. If that is the case use Aim Glide from above, dive into the bubble, and put a lanka shot into their helmet. Aim Glide reduces enemy accuracy. It is important to use Parkour because it add to your offensive options and survivability.

I am not going to say that everything is fair in this game. A Limbo players, in some cases, has to work much harder for their end of mission rewards than a Rhino player. But given the choice I'd fight a squad of Nullies surrounding me peppered with Bombards rather than deal with an ambush of Bombards and Napalms surrounding me trying to bullet jump from homing missiles.

Like seriously...Eximus Toxic Healer. That stupid poison aura combined with the enemy heal aura. That has killed me far more than any nully combo has.

[Vox_Preliator]

On 8/31/2016 at 7:29 PM, Vox_Preliator said:

Their resistance (not impervious-ness, exaggeration doesn't help anyone's case) to slow-firing weapons is a pain and could really really really use a tweak, but I can't help but feel if the player's at a level where losing their buffs or getting that close to an enemy is a death sentence, maybe it's time to change tactics, gear, or just retreat to fight another day because the foes are doing their job:  Pushing you out of the mission.

Honestly I think I dislike Bombards more than any Corpus enemy.

To add to this, they are huge, glowing targets with a distinct, fairly loud sound effect, unless a dozen spawn at once, I don't see how it's not the player's fault for letting them pile up and become the dreaded 20+ enemy Null-Lattice we always hear horror stories about.

On 8/31/2016 at 9:03 AM, (PS4)Lord_Gremlin said:

Yes, we do. By many different people to the point of forums being unusable for any other discussion. Because that may finally get them to remove nullifiers from the game. 

So being loudest longest wins?

Cool, I'd better rally an echo chamber about something so we can make new threads every day, upvote each other's posts so it seems a large portion of the community agrees, and never relent until we get our way because apparently that's totally how these things work.

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

5 minutes ago, Troll_Logic said:

You don't know that your feedback is "representative of changes that would appease the greater mass" anymore than I know that mine is.

That's the point.  The people whining about nullifiers think their position is the one held by all righteous people.  It isn't.

That's a big reason why the people who are fine with nullifiers are starting to get so annoyed by the anti-nullifier people.  The anti-nullifiers seem think that starting three new threads a day about nullifiers hoping that sheer mentions and annoying behavior on the boards will get them their way.

I never claimed that It was.  Let's stay on topic.

Conversation history:

Spoiler

You said:  "You really have no idea of how things work do you?  WF is huge.  Huge.  A tiny percentage of the players even visit the forums.  A smaller percentage even goes to the trouble of posting messages.  An even smaller percentage of those forum members constantly whine about nullifiers.  So your "majority of players" is, and I'm guessing, probably less than a thousandth of one percent.  If that high."

To which I said:   "I know it is a sample of convenience, but listening to feedback has served DE well in the past so it is reasonable to assume the opinions on the forums fairly accurately represents the opinions of the greater mass."

To which you said:   "Maybe.  Maybe not.  More than likely not."

My issue is your claim that only people who constantly post on the forums want nullifiers changed.  Which is a clear logical fallacy.  You are essentially claiming that all who remain silent on the topic are on your side which while technically possible is astronomically improbable.

There are really only four big nullifier white knights who invariably chime in on every anti-nullifier post.  I chime in because I don't like seeing the white knights misrepresent anti-nullifier arguments in every single thread.  Most others who 'support' nullifiers seem indifferent rather than truly in favor of leaving nullifiers the way they are.  They say things like "I don't see what the big deal is," "just stab them" and such.   I just don't see your anti-anti-nullifier uprising.  In most cases the anti-nully threads are started by new people.  At the same time there are no threads saying "Hey that was a great idea.  Give the Grineer a nullifier too, They made the game sooooooo much more fun."

Spoiler

Yes, I know the Grineer have a nullifier.  I hope it just stays where it is now.

 

[Sebrent]

And now he brings out the "white knights" concept... ./facepalm

@(PS4)Final_Dragon01

Stick with facts.

You don't know the numbers of people that are [un]happy with it.

You seem convinced that your opinion on it is what is best for the game.

The current average and peak numbers for concurrent players is doing quite fine for Warframe ... it's solid ... so there doesn't appear to be some "big problem" that you and other anti-nullifier forum-goers claim there to be.

If you are going to make claims about thinking that a large number agree with you, then find the proof or shut it about it as saying it without anything to back it is useless to the conversation.

Troll_Logic has been trying to nudge you towards sticking to facts, but it just seems to keep going over your head.

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

5 minutes ago, Sebrent said:

And now he brings out the "white knights" concept... ./facepalm

@(PS4)Final_Dragon01

Stick with facts.

You don't know the numbers of people that are [un]happy with it.

You seem convinced that your opinion on it is what is best for the game.

The current average and peak numbers for concurrent players is doing quite fine for Warframe ... it's solid ... so there doesn't appear to be some "big problem" that you and other anti-nullifier forum-goers claim there to be.

If you are going to make claims about thinking that a large number agree with you, then find the proof or shut it about it as saying it without anything to back it is useless to the conversation.

Troll_Logic has been trying to nudge you towards sticking to facts, but it just seems to keep going over your head.

*shurgs* I very clearly said that was my interpenetration of the situation. In fact is a post earlier to you I said:

3 hours ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

For what it is worth(nothing), I believe a majority of players are not concerned enough with how the game could be changed for the better to even have formed an opinion on whether or not nullifiers should be changed or removed.  However, out of the players who have formed that opinion I believe the majority of them do want nullifiers at least changed.  But without any actual evidence there is not much to talk about here, since it is clear you also think you are in the majority.

There is no evidence for either of us to find so I could just as easily ask you to 'shut it' or provide some nebulous form of proof.

In my latest posts I was simply pointing out logical fallacies, but somehow I'm claiming I have the support the entire warframe community, am personal friends with Steve(and God father of his son), and will be showing up on the next devstream to confirm nullifiers will be removed from the game. (Strawmaned your Strawman Booyah *flashes gang signs a nerd has no right making.*)

[Sebrent]

What in the world are you referring to as a "strawman" ?

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

4 minutes ago, Sebrent said:

What in the world are you referring to as a "strawman" ?

My claim the entire time has been, "You can't prove the people who want nullifiers changed or removed is an infinitesimally small group."

You misrepresented it as "You claim most of the warframe community wants nullifiers removed."

For your convenience the definition of a strawman fallacy from google:

Spoiler

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position.

Btw thank you for showing up immediately when I talked about white-knights.  It was really convenient.

[Sebrent]

@(PS4)Final_Dragon01 Lol. Let's look at your posts on this topic ...

3 hours ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

If feedback is not representative of changes that would appease the greater mass, what good is it?  Should DE just ignore feedback?

Yep ... that "obviously" tranlates to "you can't prove the people who want nullifiers changed or removed is an infinitesimally small group."

And in that very quote of yourself, you still go out of your way to say:

4 hours ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

However, out of the players who have formed that opinion I believe the majority of them do want nullifiers at least changed.  But without any actual evidence there is not much to talk about here, since it is clear you also think you are in the majority.

Again ... that "obviously" translates to "you can't prove the people who want nullifiers changed or removed is an infinitesimally small group."

How could anyone have possibly interpreted that as you believing a majority agree with you when you said exactly that.

 

If you want to talk about misinterpreting what someone else has said ... let's go back to what I said:

59 minutes ago, Sebrent said:

If you are going to make claims about thinking that a large number agree with you, then find the proof or shut it about it as saying it without anything to back it is useless to the conversation.

That doesn't say a thing about the entire Warframe community.

Additionally, if you look through the history of this thread, I have before mentioned you responding as if I said something that I didn't as have others in response to you doing the same to their posts.

 

As far as your amusement over me "showing up" after you mentioned "white knights" ... is your memory that short? I've been in this thread for quite some time now, kiddo.

Also, what exactly is a "white knight" supposed to be/mean? All I ever see is people that complain use this as a derogatory term for people that disagree with them. It's ridiculous and, honestly, at its base, simply name-calling. It's as useless as making claims without anything to back them up ... which it is as well. But, looking at post history, the shoe seems to fit.

 

Sticking with your "4 white knights" comment ... just look at this one thread. There are far more than 4 different users that have disagreed with the anti-nullifier crowd. Again, showing you stating things that either have no proof or simply are an exaggeration (i.e. not true).

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

7 minutes ago, Sebrent said:

-snip-

Just more out of context quotes turned into misrepresentations.  If your not going to read the posts that lead to those comments I'm not going to bother.

Just for fun:

The original definition of a white knight is an insult to your manhood(womanhood) so I can't fully spell it out for you here.  The original internet version of a white knight is a person who runs to the aid of any girl who expresses any trama real or imagined and defends her regardless of facts, logic, etc.  This concept can be applied to anyone who runs to the aid of any idea and vigorously defends it regardless of facts, reason, etc.   The reason it applies to you though is the constant strawmanning of any argument you don't like, and the fact you do it in every nully thread.  Even though I'm only using it as a quick way to call you illogical, many would still read the insult to your manhood into it as well.  But I'm not using it that way so it's good.

It's a shame because I liked your ideas for mitigating the negative affects of nullifiers, and the conversation devolved into this.

[Sebrent]

I'm glad you liked my ideas for possible changes that would appease the anti-nullifier crowd while preserving the assumed role of Nullifiers in the game.

Yes it is a shame that ...

• You called it a strawman even though I've shown it was in direct reference to things you have actually said ... and now you claim I'm taking it out of context.
• You are devolving into calling people white knights which, given what you just explained, is truly just name-calling. How is someone supposed to know you are / aren't "using it that way" ?

Anyone can look at the history of just this thread and see the facts. You can try to posture all you want. The facts are there.

If you, gremlin, and the other people I keep seeing harp on this and say that they think that "repeatedly posting about it will change something" would, instead, stick to facts, post coherent suggestions on changes that would solve people's problems without creating new ones, and work towards a middle-ground ... you'd like be much more effective than simply spamming the forums as you have been.

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

5 minutes ago, Sebrent said:

-snip-

Words and phrases have multiple definitions.  You asked for the definition so I provided one.  I have no method of determining the quality of your manhood so it is logical to assume I was referring to your method of debate from context clues.

But I agree the conversation is right up there and what I said is quite clear.  I'm not going to make the a wall of text you are trying to bait me into because I did that once and you strawmanned that (in a different thread).  It was truly impressive.

I have made plenty of suggestions in appropriate threads.  I even made several in this thread, but I guess those fell on deaf ears.

Anyway, please feel free to have the last word again. I'm out.

[Sunset_Thief]

On 8/30/2016 at 8:06 PM, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Totally agree. Especially with the bubble thing being terrible. If you want them to cancel the bubble then at least make then have to hit frost instead.  Also make it so they stop clipping through the environment.

yes, that needs to happen, make their bubble stop going through environment 

[Shifty_Shuffler]

Whats worse, Nullifiers or those Hyena type enemies with the constant magnetic procs from yesterdays Corpus Bust alert?

(you might want to be careful what you wish for :P )

Edited September 2, 2016 by Shifty_Shuffler

[SinergyX]

I love nulifiers :D As long Synoid mirage is around, i want nulifiers to be around, so thats sorted.

[(PSN)shadowraith_666]

Nullifiers need to go, they are present in nearly every corpus mission and all fissure missions where they are usually accompanied by bombards, gunners and ancients.  The worst ones seem to be arctic and shock eximus nullifiers ( i think i once encountered an energy leech one as well).