Quickthinking still staggers...why?

[Etharien]

As the title suggests, this post is about the mod quickthinking for your warframe. For those who are unfamiliar with the mod, once you reach 1 HP it converts energy into effective HP. This gives  frames a sort of additional health pool. However, ever since they changed it to nerf the quickthinking rage combo a long time ago, it staggers every time quickthinking "activates" after a certain damage threshold. This nerf to the mod does not need to be here, it serves no purpose than to make quickthinking a less appealing alternative to health or shields.

To the people who argue, "well it works because it still saves your life when you need it!", most of the time it really doesn't. For the most part, when i need quickthinking to work, i end up stagger locked. I find myself now using vitality more and more, even on frames that just doesn't make sense as shields aren't great either. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for the stagger to be removed, and the only reason stagger is there has long since been removed.

Proposed Fix: Remove the stagger. The fact remains that the stagger was introduced when the broken rage/quickthinking combo was around. The combo was removed, but the disadvantage remains.

Edited ~ Proposed Fix: Instead of removing the stagger altogether, introduce a stagger timer (say 2s) where you cannot get staggered again.

Edited September 6, 2016 by Etharien
Added a stagger timer compromise solution.

[DSpite]

You get Staggered because you were just slammed hard enough to put you into zero health, and you were only saved by a Health Gating mechanics?

If you can rely on ONE Mod for all Frames to use as a replacement for Abilities DESIGNED to do similar things and think you will not get a big drawback, you have high hopes.

It was and still is a one trick pony kind of trick to cheat death - regardless of how cheap that death was - so I don't see why DE would change it.

[MrJxt]

It only staggers if you take high amounts of damage when it does activate.

[Etharien]

One stagger would be fine but when you get stagger locked, why even equip the mod?

[(XBOX)Ivan of Jupiter]

The stagger is fine. You should stagger after receiving a face full of rocket from a Bombard. However permastagger from a Heavy gunner is annoying as all hell. Stagger should stay, but should have a 1-2 seconds of no stagger, allowing you to retaliate. Keep in mind that this is not invincibility. You'd still take damage, and if you run out of energy before you're able to retaliate you die. 

[jofdeath]

the stagger is more of a drawback that ahould stay but should have a cool down to prevent locks. also i think rolling works to get out still

[bejuizb]

A simpler and fairer fix would be to retain the stagger, but upon a completed stagger, you gain stability for 2s. Enough time to spam roll and get to cover. 

[Etharien]

I would be fine with a mechanic that prevents stagger locking, however like i said in my original post i find myself not equipping it at all and equipping vitality instead. Caster frames are squishy as is, and having quickthinking is a nice way of utilizing their large energy pool as reserve EHP.

[(XBOX)Prime Pedestal]

12 minutes ago, Etharien said:

One stagger would be fine but when you get stagger locked, why even equip the mod?

Try rolling, stops you getting stagger locked ;)

[Dualstar]

12 minutes ago, Etharien said:

Caster frames are squishy as is, and having quickthinking is a nice way of utilizing their large energy pool as reserve EHP.

You mean caster frames are squishy as is, and equipping QT is a nice way of leaving you both dead and without energy?

[Etharien]

Just now, Dualstar said:

You mean caster frames are squishy as is, and equipping QT is a nice way of leaving you both dead and without energy?

Sorry, that's what i meant.

[DSpite]

33 minutes ago, Etharien said:

One stagger would be fine but when you get stagger locked, why even equip the mod?

You only get "stagger lock" when you are knee deep in enemies. The Mod is meant as a cheap "get out of jail free card" not as crowd damage immunity.

If you getting stagger locked it means you would have died 10 times over already. If it had saved you from a couple of enemies, they would not be enough to stagger lock you.

[(PSN)Darth-Escar]

It's not that hard to roll. Also, IIRC, there are many situations where you don't get staggered with it anyway. Something often overlooked is how much more easily and safely energy can be replenished than health. There are usually orbs everywhere, so a stagger is quite a reasonable drawback.

[Etharien]

36 minutes ago, DSpite said:

You only get "stagger lock" when you are knee deep in enemies. The Mod is meant as a cheap "get out of jail free card" not as crowd damage immunity.

If you getting stagger locked it means you would have died 10 times over already. If it had saved you from a couple of enemies, they would not be enough to stagger lock you.

You keep saying it has no drawbacks. Are you saying that losing energy to keep yourself alive is not a drawback? In addition, i'd hardly say i got out of the engagement free if half my energy is missing. If there was no stagger, it still would not be considered crowd damage immunity. Not even sure what you meant by that.

And if i get stagger locked, it means it saved me one or twice over. I never need quickthinking when facing a couple (1-3) enemies, just like how i wouldn't need redirection or vitality. They are there as a backup. 

Edited September 6, 2016 by Etharien

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

If it didn't stagger it would just be another mandatory mod.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

To make the mod useless. 

Honestly, if you are using the mod on anyone other than Trinity, you are wasting a slot.  You just end up stagger locked. You die anyway, plus you lose all your energy on top of it. 

[zehne]

The argument is simple:

I have 300hp on my warframe.  Vitality puts me at 740hp.  But I can use quick thinking instead.

If I use vitality then I can take 739 damage to my hp, and not die.  If I took 739 damage with quick thinking installed, that's 439 damage to my 'energy' (~~183 energy lost).  The problem with this is that I might get staggered once, maybe twice.  Even with 'just roll', you can't prevent the first one really.  This means you are more likely to take additional damage because of the mod that is supposed to make you more survivable.

The point above, is that you need ~~183 extra energy to make quick thinking as good as vitality on the vast majority of warframes.  The few that have less HP need smaller excess energy amounts to see the break-free point, but the few that have higher hp need vastly higher amounts of energy to make quick thinking even a close substitute.

Lets be honest, most warframes don't have >183 extra energy just sitting around for survival purposes.  Even if using primed flow, that's still going to be a decent chunk of your max energy pool gone. 

The other point to mention is that damage taken via quickthinking doesn't trigger effects that scale off of damage taken either.  (like peaceful provocation augment for equinox)

My final point is that Quick thinking has a capacity of 15, vitality is only 12.

 

 

[(XBOX)His 1st Shadow]

Vitality, redirection, steel fiber, etc. have no drawbacks. I have no idea why people think it would be a sin if QT didn't have one.

 

Getting stagger locked is just bad gameplay design. 

[(XBOX)Ivan of Jupiter]

8 minutes ago, (XB1)His 1st Shadow said:

Vitality, redirection, steel fiber, etc. have no drawbacks. I have no idea why people think it would be a sin if QT didn't have one.

 

Getting stagger locked is just bad gameplay design. 

Many of us are ok with stagger, but want it to have a period of stability. During this time you can't get staggered again, thus preventing stagger lock.

Vitality, Redirection and Steel Fiber are base increases to their respective stats. QT isn't. So that comparison doesn't fly.

If stagger was removed it would be where it was pre stagger. Quick Thinking and Rage would be broken again. Stagger fixes this issue without messing with numbers (they could have easily made it a chance to negate death or something). Stagger lock is a problem yes, but stagger itself isn't.

Edited September 6, 2016 by (XB1)DRG JupiterIvan

[(XBOX)His 1st Shadow]

19 minutes ago, (XB1)DRG JupiterIvan said:

Many of us are ok with stagger, but want it to have a period of stability. During this time you can't get staggered again, thus preventing stagger lock.

Vitality, Redirection and Steel Fiber are base increases to their respective stats. QT isn't. So that comparison doesn't fly.

If stagger was removed it would be where it was pre stagger. Quick Thinking and Rage would be broken again. Stagger fixes this issue without messing with numbers (they could have easily made it a chance to negate death or something). Stagger lock is a problem yes, but stagger itself isn't.

Actually QT used to give back health. Rage would give energy which is what made the combo op. Not the absence of a stagger.

They changed it so quick thinking simply stopped your health at 2hp and took away from your energy pool which prevents rage from extending QT effectiveness.

Now having 740 health is similar to having 400 energy and 340 health. No idea how the latter not being staggered is game breaking.  

 

Like I said before, the stagger lock is bad design and shouldn't be. Whether or not it here's an initial stagger I'm indifferent. 

 

[Lyravain]

7 hours ago, Etharien said:

One stagger would be fine but when you get stagger locked, why even equip the mod?

You stagger every time your health drops to 0. If you've equipped Rejuvenation (which passively recovers health at a pretty fast rate. Therefore using Rejuv on a QT build is, paradoxically enough, a bad idea.

The reason for the stagger was that, without it, you could walk into hell, smiling and laughing and not suffer any drawbacks. Essentially you added Energy to Health and, with the ways there are to restore both pretty fast (Pizzas, Support frames, auras etc etc etc), you were effectively immortal. So they added a stagger to let you know that, nope, it's not gonna be that easy, you hit the point where you can't deal with it anymore, get out of the mission pronto.

Personally, it never bothered me and never will. Stagger isn't that bad.

[alexmach1]

1 hour ago, Lyravain said:

The reason for the stagger was that, without it, you could walk into hell, smiling and laughing and not suffer any drawbacks.

There are so many other things in the game that let us do this but yes, Quick Thinking should be the one thing that requires a stagger because X. Good logic!

[The_Tiddler]

4 hours ago, Lyravain said:

You stagger every time your health drops to 0. If you've equipped Rejuvenation (which passively recovers health at a pretty fast rate. Therefore using Rejuv on a QT build is, paradoxically enough, a bad idea.

Actually it only staggers you if you take a particularly large hit (Or a tonne of smaller hits in a second or so) while under its effect, not when your health drops to the QT takeover point (2 HP). Rejuvenate on a QT build will not make you stagger more; relying soley on QT is the bad idea.

Edited September 6, 2016 by Tiddlerdoo

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

48 minutes ago, Tiddlerdoo said:

Actually it only staggers you if you take a particularly large hit (Or a tonne of smaller hits in a second or so) while under its effect, not when your health drops to the QT takeover point (2 HP). Rejuvenate on a QT build will not make you stagger more; relying soley on QT is the bad idea.

The problem is the only time you need it is when you do take a big hit. 

[Navarc]

There already from the very beginning should exist a Knockdown & Stagger immunity timer so you don't get stunlocked in stagers or knockdowns.

I've been sniped out of the sky by Ancients, pulled to them. Then when I get up I get knocked down by a Tar Mutalist just to get a Leaper stagger me when I get up the 2nd time.
After the recovering animation you should have a 4 second immunity to staggers & knockdowns. Hundreds of games make systems to avoid you being able to get staggered/knocked down/stunned forever already.