The Vacuum Within: Universal Vacuum Feedback

[F0rcem4x]

It's just a horrible nerf. I don't find any good reason except for new players. It's good for new players because they're new and they didn't play with the 12m range. It's horrible for the rest of players as now we must change our playstyle and we're gonna be far slower. Now it's just terrible to farm, because you need to get very close to the item to actually pick it up. Automatic pickups of resources would fix this.

Edited October 6, 2016 by F0rcem4x

[Azrael]

1 minute ago, ObviousLee said:

"it's not about speed" preceded by "parkouring at mach 10"

I explained this very clearly. It's about the "parkour" part, not the "mach 10" part. I explained exactly why I was bringing that up, and why speed doesn't matter. Or do you really think we can go "mach 10?" Now stop insulting people.

[ObviousLee]

Just now, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Great, now I'm restrained from using the carrier. Magnificent trade off (not really). Now I'm forced to puck up items instead of having an option to play the way I want. Great trade off (not really).

"be glad you're not restrained to using just carrier"

"now i'm restrained from using carrier"

flawless logic.

[datech]

3 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Just cut the crap guys. Cut the crap.
 

you made my day.

[NeithanDiniem]

3 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Which part of helping new players and interacting with people in region is an actual gameplay during which you have to use your sentinel at all? That's globalframe, forumframe, helpingframe and not warframe. Never warframe. Exactly what I'm talking about. While supposedly "playing" the game you have time to go to the forums and read flamethreads, You are not engaged in the gameplay. You just hang out with your warframe running in the background - that's it.

 

Again with the assumptions. You do realize that time passes, meaning that the events occurring relatively recently do not have to directly relate to that happened earlier in the day? You again assume that what he has been doing for the past hour or two is equal to what he has been doing all day long, which is testing all the sentinels with several frames on sorties, playing missions with new clanmates and helping them learn the game, and running a few longer term missions. You are showing off the characteristics of a troll admirably.

3 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

I'm sorry that not everyone in the game is a burnout forumcitizen who kept warframe running in the background for 10k hours and has billions of everything. Should I remind you how did you get all that stuff? Ye, exactly by using the carrier that picked your resourses for you. Cut the hypocrisy, man.

Two for freaking Two with assumptions. I'm actually rather recent to the forums but its these such lovely long-winded discussions that seem to explode post counts. Most of my time in Warframe I actually don't use a sentinal or companion at all. A lot of my resources come from just running around and playing the game, you know, actively working and grabbing that item thats right the freaking hell over there within roll distance. You really, really do like making assumptions without any data or numbers behind it. Remind me how your assuming of my or other people's in-game activity is in any way relevant to the discussion again? You seem to think you know more of what I do than I myself appear to be aware of.

Oh, and cute screenshot there. Too bad it doesn't allow you to know just how much of my total game play that I use a companion at all. Way to sleuth that one up, Sherlock.

[Artekkor]

Reading the converdation that was going on here, i think i should remind something:

In one of the older Devstreams one of the devs compared the balance of the game to a bucket full of water. You can't add something in without taking something out.

That's pretty much the philosophy they were always going with. Very rarely they do pure nerfs or buffs unless item is broken. Excalibur was useless, he was buffed to god-like then nerfed over time change by change to the point where he's still strong, but reasonably strong.

Same happend to Diriga but from the oposite side. It was god-like to the point that i could finish void T1 defense by doing literally nothing, then it was nerfed into hell, then buffed again, but to a reasonable point.

This also reminds me: DE rarely do something perfectly on the 1st try. It takes them time to see how players will react to refine their new addition.

This change was an experiment. They're going to read the reaction and change (or not) somethjng starting from there.

Just let's keep it civil and avoid needless game/dev/player bashing, okay? The discussions that were going on here are nice, but i think it's couple of degrees too hot.

[RikerWatts]

1 minute ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Great, now I'm restrained from using the carrier. Magnificent trade off (not really). Now I'm forced to puck up items instead of having an option to play the way I want. Great trade off (not really).

Oh no! You must inconvenience yourself to slow down and take a look at the sights DE put in place which is also what the Ayatan sculpture update implied with it's "come find me!" placement.
Is warframe a game for fast ninjas with space katanas and superduperpowers? Yes
does that mean we should burn through every level so we shouldn't appreciate the little things DE has added? No.
I like the slower pace, it even gives hydroid, a frame that has pacing issues some pause and play.

But oh no you've been inconvenienced to a halved spherical diameter overall so you have to walk a little closer to pick up an item that is probably one of three things!
A. something you have to farm for anyway so you're actively looking out for them
B. something you have a plentiful amount of because you've collected it passively either before, during, or after this update.
C. something you wouldn't care about in the first place.

Seriously if something needs a vacuum, it's archwings. That's a full 360 spherical radius of movement  where items can aimlessly be that you have to basically walk over.
Buh gees hao mani peepol compleeend about dat.

[pikaseechu]

1 hour ago, _Vortus_ said:

 

Loss:

Carrier/Prime lost 6m radius on its vacuum ability

Kubrows don't have Vacuum

Kavats don't have Vacuum

Gained:

Carrier/Prime gained ammo mutate and increased ammo capacity for weapons.

All other sentinels gained a 6m vacuum ability.

Fixed it for you, and also shortened your "Gained" list; longer list does not equate better. 

Also, Vacuum does not work linearly; it's range is spherical. Do that math properly before you go stating what our gains and losses are. 

Other than that, Vacuum range being nerfed to 12% of effective range is enough to send people into a frenzy. Increasing the range to 8-10 meters will vastly inprove the reaction, not to mention probably introducing a toggle in options for those who don't want to lose a whole ammo box for one bullet. 

Meanwhile, I'm more or less salty that they did this as a passive but did not also introduce reworks/buff or plans to do so for the other 3 sentjnels. Shade, Diriga, Carrier, and maybe Helios if you haven't completed your codex are useful enough to be utilized by the playerbase. Deathcube's weapon needs a buff to damage, and Djinn got a nice change so we'll see how it plays out. Helios would probably see more usage by those with completed codex if he gave standing for Simaris scanners, or scanned plants and kavats for drops. As the final point, many still will use Carrier/Prime over most other sentinels/companions based on his small hitbox, tankiness, and lack of maintenance costs. DE took a sidestep in attempts to fix this but if they plan to help then they ahould do it right; not by nerfing Vacuum's effective sphere of range.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

9 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

sorties

30 minutes of unrewarding brain-dead gameplay once a day. Sure, at least that's some gameplay. Do you still keep doing it every day? I know I do - it's a bad habit at this point but I sorta still love moving in warframe and doing "stuff". But both of those things are gradually taken away from me, cause first I lost even the miniscule reason left to do endless missions and now i have to pick up items manually - so no parcour. And in favour of what? I used to say that DE could read my mind in terms of updates - for a short while they were really good. But now they're reading it wrong.

[Nolc]

9 minutes ago, Silvus-Sol said:

Would one of those airborne units include my Warframe? Because I tend to be airborne quite a bit in this game. Also, on-route doesn't mean much on some of the more open maps during some of the more open ended mission types.

 

You are completely on point. I jump around, I run i slide. Loot is on the ground, on top of a crate or sometimes drops through the floor. No matter what people say about "getting gud", this change slows down the gameplay. It makes me stop and look for loot when in the past I could simple slide/jump/run past. It's super annoying.

[(XBOX)ashes of suvius]

why don't we get down to the meat of the issue, players dont use vacuum because its stronger than other sentinel abilities, its not a win button. The reason people use it is because it solves what most people see as a needless inconvenience. Any Nerf to vacuum is a Nerf to a majority of players and it doesn't matter if all sentinels have it if that means a majority of players can no longer rid themselves of needless inconvenience to a satisfying degree. If we cared more about using other sentinels than how much less tedious vacuum made everyday play, carrier wouldn't have been the most used companion. Also from a entertainment providers perspective, how is it good to have most of the audience feel more negativity, tedium and inconvenience with your product? Who does it effect negatively to have the full range? How does it positively effect anyone to run around more to pick up loot? How is it not clear that universal vacuum with the old range on it is solving a perceived problem with design and reducing the range is creating more? How is it not clear that this bs isn't good for us or WF?

Edited October 6, 2016 by (XB1)ashes of suvius

[RikerWatts]

1 minute ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

30 minutes of unrewarding brain-dead gameplay once a day.

here u go

[AperoBeltaTwo]

2 minutes ago, RikerWatts said:

does that mean we should burn through every level so we shouldn't appreciate the little things DE has added? No.

That's an issue of boring easy missions. Not the carrier. People who doesn't need loot will still burn through any starchart mission at a lightning speed. You're arguing for the sake of an argument at this point.

4 minutes ago, RikerWatts said:

I like the slower pace, it even gives hydroid, a frame that has pacing issues some pause and play.

You like "slower pace", I like action games to be faster. So does it mean that what you like is better than what I like? Is that what you're suggesting? Cause that would be really $&*&*#(%& (no offence). Before this update you had your slow pace and I had my fast pace. I had an option. Now I don't have an option and nothing really changed for you. I don't even know why you're engaged in this conversation at all. You shouldn't care - nothing changed for you. I know I'm speaking up because I lost things that I legitimately enjoyed in the game. What's your catch? Or are you just trying to have your fun by shutting me up? Forumframe instead of playing the game? What's the catch?

ps
Same thing with the endless missions.

Why do you guys even speak up if everything is fine for you?

[Azrael]

31 minutes ago, RiouHotaru said:

The sphere portion only matters if drops are taking place anywhere but right in front of you.  Which matters what few airbourne units exist in this game.

Drops on catwalks can be picked up by running underneath the catwalk. Think of Xini. Also, what this guy said:

15 minutes ago, Silvus-Sol said:

Would one of those airborne units include my Warframe? Because I tend to be airborne quite a bit in this game

 

33 minutes ago, RiouHotaru said:

The statement that "my current sentinel does a bad job of vacuuming" is an opinion.  Not fact.

While of course we are allowed to have different playstyles, a 6m vacuum is still objectively worse than a 12m one. So while you could argue that it's still "good enough," you can't argue that it isn't much worse than old vacuum. And if someone thinks that 6m is not enough, then the fact that all the other sentinals can also get 6m is little consolation. For such a player (and there are a lot of them), it is no longer possible to get a decent vacuum. That was my point.

Btw, I'm actually kind of okay with the 6m range. I would have preferred 12m, but I think I can live with it. But I want people to use honest arguments, and I think that the other sentinals don't do enough to make this a huge boon. I tried prisma shade again, for the first time in like 4 months. It made me invisible, I started running away from an enemy, and I became visible again while still in that enemy's line of sight. It was completely useless.

[GoodOldLeon]

I feel a good middle ground would be bringing the old vacuum mod, make it usable by all sentinels and turn it into a 10 level mod. It would take a lot more endo/money to get that same 12 meter range but it would still be better than what has been implemented. 

[ObviousLee]

8 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

30 minutes of unrewarding brain-dead gameplay once a day. Sure, at least that's some gameplay. Do you still keep doing it every day? I know I do - it's a bad habit at this point but I sorta still love moving in warframe and doing "stuff". But both of those things are gradually taken away from me, cause first I lost even the miniscule reason left to do endless missions and now i have to pick up items manually - so no parcour. And in favour of what? I used to say that DE could read my mind in terms of updates - for a short while they were really good. But now they're reading it wrong.

again, taking a snippet from my post and blatantly ignoring anything else being said in reference to avid playtesting of the new changes. you're only again, devaluing your points.

As both riker and neithan have stated, there are reasons, logical ones at that for the changes made recently, and again, i've spent the majority of the day testing them. had i felt they were out of place, i'd not be disagreeing with you right now. you went so far as to hunt down neithan's usage of carrier, but ignore mine because loldon'tcare which is childish at best, pathetic at worst when you're trying to utilize someones playtime usage of a particular item who is in disagreement with your opinion, as i've again, avid use of the sentinel. if you're going to use one persons usage as a baseline to draw any kind of conclusions from in regards to a difference of opinion, then you need to apply the same principle to anyone else who also sides with that opinon.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

12 minutes ago, RikerWatts said:

here u go

after you

You can't just tell people to leave when they dislike something. That's the most stupid position in any conversation. By that logic people who dislike stuff in their lives should just kill themselves. Great idea (not really).

Edited October 6, 2016 by AperoBeltaTwo

[DEADSHOT456]

Ok, guys. I take back whatever I said in this thread earlier after play-testing the new Vacuum.

6m isn't horrible, but it is not good at all. During my play-testing, in indoor tilesets with small corridors 6m was fine, but in larger tilesets, 6m was just not cutting it.

If DE doesn't want to straightaway buff 6m to 12m, I think a good idea would be to introduce a sentinel mod that increases the vacuum range by 100% at max rank. I think usage of a mod slot should be enough trade-off of increased range.

[Nep_Blanc]

Just now, DEADSHOT456 said:

Ok, guys. I take back whatever I said in this thread earlier after play-testing the new Vacuum.

6m isn't horrible, but it is not good at all. During my play-testing, in indoor tilesets with small corridors 6m was fine, but in larger tilesets, 6m was just not cutting it.

If DE doesn't want to straightaway buff 6m to 12m, I think a good idea would be to introduce a sentinel mod that increases the vacuum range by 100% at max rank. I think usage of a mod slot should be enough trade-off of increased range.

Like Carrier?

 

Chao, The Roaring Lion

[RikerWatts]

8 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Why do you guys even speak up if everything is fine for you?

'cause when people have nothing better to do than complain about something good, there will always be someone to contradict you.
Even in the viability of hydroid was argued because "you have to reduce range for it to be good" when you have to drop a stat negatively to improve, that's a gameplay flaw.
When people resort to using one sentinel because of it's utility aspect, DE made the right move in integrating it more naturally in ALL sentinels.
So this way you don't HAVE to use carrier only for it's utility of vac. But hey, it's easier to mass-whine about something that was a quality of life improvement along with re-instating variety in your sentinels and adapting to it.
But.

[DEADSHOT456]

I think a mod to increase vacuum range by 100% at max rank should be fine if DE does not want to outright increase the range to 12m.

[DEADSHOT456]

Just now, TheRoaringLion said:

Like Carrier?

 

Chao, The Roaring Lion

Yes, like Carrier's mod but usable by all the sentinels.

[Waxil]

On 10/4/2016 at 11:25 PM, FrostboundFlame said:

They'd better not. I'm in the minority, sure, but vacuum as a passive is a terrible idea, let alone on frames.

Understand though, for a moment, that with said 89% of the playerbase using carrier, that this will allow said carrier spammers to go to other (and better) sentinels instead of sitting on a glorified household appliance because they're too lazy to pick up after themselves. Sure, it doesn't fix the problem, but it at least gives the option for diversity to begin with.

Or they'll just stop playing, cause War-roomba is a super lame version of warframe?

 

Edited October 6, 2016 by Waxil

[Azrael]

While I think that 6m is doable, I agree it feels too small. I also don't think that there was any need to reduce the range, it wasn't exactly overpowered as it was. Increasing it to 8 or even 10 would go a long way towards quelling the fires and satisfying players who don't want to spend their missions worrying about loot.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

9 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

you went so far as to hunt down neithan's usage of carrier

I picked the guy i was talking to originally. And I was right on his hypocrisy. What is there to prove past that point?

9 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

pathetic

Another one. Can't you guys keep a civil conversation? You gotta ask me to leave, you gotta force your non-existent opinion down my throat, you lie to me about your preferances to make a point.  Wtf? Why go to such lenths? This topic didn't concern you in any way shape or form. You didn't lose anything with the update. If you like it - good for you. Stop trying to shut the mouths of the majority who dislikes the update. Find a different endgame cause at bullying you're pretty bad.

Edited October 6, 2016 by AperoBeltaTwo