give us infinite ammo

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Just now, Tricky5hift said:

What about sniper rifles like the Rubico?

It already has a 3 second reload and that feels like an eternity.

You really think its worth extending just for infinite ammo?

As if people ever ran out of ammo for sniper rifles...

Honestly, I think snipers are a-whole-nother can of worms.

[Tricky5hift]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

I am not easily swayed, but that does not mean that I am not open to it. The simple truth is, your arguments are not as persuasive as you seem to think.

Its not a matter of persuasion.

There is a difference between bringing up fair points and being persuasive.

We're not lawyers. We just want to express how we feel about certain things.

Edited October 23, 2016 by Tricky5hift

[-N7-Leonhart]

1 minute ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

I am not easily swayed, but that does not mean that I am not open to it. The simple truth is, your arguments are not as persuasive as you seem to think.

I only want super long reloads on super weapons.

Tell you what, you convinced me! From this day forward, I am a devout follower of the infinite ammo (not really) cult.

And no, this is not even sarcasm.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

1 hour ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

nuke

with the synoid gamma it is more about the utl energy proc gains senergizing with frames rather than nuking rooms. And with Infinite ammo that contradics everything  energy related. makes energy pies, zenurik focus, energy aura obsolete. No one will use any other secondary. if at all. 

Edited October 23, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

7 minutes ago, Tricky5hift said:

Its not a matter of persuasion.

There is a difference between bringing up fair points and being persuasive.

We're not lawyers. We just want to express how we feel about certain things.

I never said you couldn't. Just don't expect that I should be swayed by them.

6 minutes ago, (XB1)FCastle74 said:

Infinite ammo thats contradicts zenurik focus and everything else energy related. 

How so? I would happily take a focus tree that restores 4% of your max ammo per second.

[Tricky5hift]

1 minute ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

I never said you couldn't. Just don't expect that I should be swayed by them.

Like... Ok...

So then don't be so hostile towards other people and what they have to say.

That just gives them the excuse to be hostile back.

Don't act like we're all trying to brainwash you into thinking a certain way.

We have our reasons for why we do or don't agree, just hear us out.

Edited October 23, 2016 by Tricky5hift

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

I never said you couldn't. Just don't expect that I should be swayed by them.

How so? I would happily take a focus tree that restores 4% of your max ammo per second.

That still requires a wait period that u are so vietmetly against and want to get rid of, which is a contradiction to your current position. Im open to the idea of a focus doing that or the idea of a arcane. Considering ammo pies and mutations give (u and or the team) ammo faster. 

Edited October 23, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[Rhekemi]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

I am not easily swayed, but that does not mean that I am not open to it. The simple truth is, your arguments are not as persuasive as you seem to think.

What in the...?

Okay, first, one of the reasons you haven't been able to piss me off is probably because I share some of the same traits. I fully understand being hard to sway and needing convincing. Sometimes the only way I see that something needs to change is after I have a really long argument about it. What seem like needless fights, arguments and debates to others are just part of who I am. Other people ain't wired that way and get exhausted.

But here's some advice for you. Chuck it or not. Up to you: you have to learn to bend. To listen to, consider, and accept others' viewpoints. 

You don't know everything. You're not perfect. You could be wrong. There could be a better way.

Life's been teaching me this for decades, and I need to continue to learn it. Doesn't mean I still don't often think I'm right (and often am right).

But back to Warframe.

My first concept topics on the subreddit got straight up ethered. I'm talking bodied. Chalk outline, bit**. Bag the body, burn the hearse.

It stung. But you know what? I refined after that.

I didn't just dogmatically defend my concept (but you're damn right I defended it), I acknowledged places where I could change it it in the posts, disregarded the insults, and then I swallowed my pride and actually changed it for the concept's sake, and the community's. It didn't matter that the accusations and insults weren't true. 

It wouldn't be what it is now without those changes, but it still in't perfect.

But what you're doing is beyond just being bullheaded and stubborn, and believing you're right.

You say: Our arguments need to be more persuasive. Okay.

But previously said: Our opinions don't really matter. Only DE's matter.

It's therefore impossible for anyone short of Digital Extremes employees, staff, or devs to persuade you. 

Mate, these are your words. 

Good debate while it lasted. Or bad debate? I'm not really sure, honestly.

[Rhekemi]

WHAT THE ACTUAL LIVING HEK?!

7 hours ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

How so? I would happily take a focus tree that restores 4% of your max ammo per second.

Am I dreaming, or is this real life?

I remember saying this:

On 10/22/2016 at 7:12 PM, Rhekemi said:

Other solutions:

...

4) An ammo buff from a Focus power (Void Rounds, or some such.)

And this:

22 hours ago, Rhekemi said:

To be blunt, that's not a good enough reason, then.

Tedium is part of the fabric of Warframe. We don't call it Warfarm for nothing. You know this.

Should some tedium be removed? Absolutely. I think Forma and Argon need to be looked at, something to offset those really high wait times. I think Nitain could drop either more frequently, or be added as rare rewards to sorties, something, anything beyond alerts.

But I do not believe ammo restores need to be scrapped for unlimited ammo. Between the three restore types, I run out of energy and health faster. I don't have the gear I should have for my level probably, (arcanes, max-forma'd gear, maxed Focus schools) so I still use restores when I am in a real jam. Ammo is my least used restore. I have 70 something or so left. Health and energy are in single digits. (I stocked up on ammo because a buddy and I planned on an endless run, but we never have time to play for past 2 hours maximum at a time.)

Do I like having to build them? Not really. Do I wish the restores were in bigger packs? Yeah. I have regular farming runs for their resources and try to go when I get a booster. When I get spare moments when trading or waiting for something else, I build.

They're on equal footing with energy restores and health restores, and where they aren't (Trinity, Zenurik, Energy Siphon) that could probably be addressed with (as I said earlier) an ammo boosting warframe power, an ammo boosting Focus power, maybe even an ammo restoring aura. Then there are weapon passives, buffs and synergies with other gear.

Overall, I think that this specific kind of tedium is meant to be part of the game. I use restores. I'm not someone who'll tell you if you need them, the problem is you. I'm an average player and a die-hard casual, but I still think this tedium is fine, and since the game's tedium is fundamental to it, we need to focus on removing the really troublesome aspects of the grind. Not this.

I just think there are several more interesting ways to address the handful of weapons that have this issue, while creating a unique utility that could serve either all weapons or categories of weapons differently. 

 

I was editing a list into the previous post when you replied, so I'll put it here:

Reasons why an overhaul to weapon ammo is bad design:

•   Reveal hidden contents

   

  • It asks the devs to invest time and resources into making an overhaul for either all weapons, or a select few
  • Player base could get pissed off their favorite weapon was not included in that select few
  • DE has to decide whether to give all weapons unlimited ammo
  • Ammo restores are now another useless resource
  • All mods used to compensate for ammo inefficient weapons are now useless
  • Those who build playstyles around how to use an ammo inefficient weapon well now have to rebuild that style
  • If it ain't broke, don't fix it: Why should the devs spend time fixing something that isn't broken?
  • It's a bad idea to do the point listed above, and below:
  • The majority does rule. With regard to a Universal Vacuum precept, the majority spoke, and didn't stop speaking until DE listened, then redid the change to get it right.
  • The majority hasn't and is not speaking on this, and the handful of others who want this change haven't supplied sufficient reasoning for the change. (Subjective. I think it isn't sufficient. Just like I've no list of reasons for my forma or argon issues yet.)
  • There are more interesting ways to address poor ammo consumption: passives and synergies, for instance.

   

   

Then you told me this:

21 hours ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

I am pretty sure you can't buy more ammo with plat, which was my point.

It's not a poor solution though. I have proven that the current system is tedious. I have shown that my suggested solution would work. I have shown my solution fixes several issues, and I have shown that my solution does not introduce any new issues that are not already present because of TARs. And saying there is this other possible solution has no effect on the merits of this one. If you think another solution is more viable then make a thread about it, and we can debate it on its own merits too, but it has no effects on the merits of this one.

All you have said is that there might be another solutions or started to use an "appeal to popularity" fallacy. Wasn't it you who said we should be looking for a solution, not just arguing to win.  Because right now, it seems like you are just arguing to win and assuming you cannot possibly be wrong.

 

You disregarded my alternate solutions because you were too busy dogmatically defending your own. But now it's kosher?

You didn't debate or discuss this in good faith at all.

I...I have...no...I'm speechless. 

Well, almost speechless.

You do remind me of me, you know that? I used to do exactly what you just did, too. I had to learn to stop.

Learn to stop and listen, my dude.

Have a good day, and I mean that. 

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

6 minutes ago, (XB1)FCastle74 said:

That still requires a wait period that u are so vietmetly against and want to get rid of, which is a contradiction to your current position. Im open to the idea of a focus doing that or the idea of a arcane. Considering ammo pies and mutations give (u and or the team) ammo faster. 

better than nothing

7 minutes ago, Rhekemi said:

Doesn't mean I still don't often think I'm right (and often am right).

That's me to a T.

Like I said, your opinions don't matter. Only DE's do. It's not that I am not evaluating the content of your posts, but I am not going to change my opinions JUST to placate you. If you make a compelling argument then I will listen. Until then, I don't care. And no, saying you dislike it is not a compelling argument in my eyes.

3 minutes ago, Rhekemi said:

You disregarded my alternate solutions because you were too busy dogmatically defending your own. But now it's kosher?

No. You are just seeing what you want to see. I told you I didn't want this thread to derail into talking about other solutions, EVEN the focus one, but if you made a thread about the other solutions I would discuss it with you there.

Context, bro. The only reason I even mentioned the focus idea is because he said infinite ammo (AS A WHOLE) is counter to the focus concept.

 

[p3z1]

Just make "omni" ammo drops. Small, medium, and large give differing amounts of ammo, depending on max ammo count.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

Also a new syndacite with a melee that gives u ammo per proc would be another possible solution. 

Edited October 23, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

better than nothing

A new syndacite melee, primary, secondary that gives u ammo per proc is another solution to your ammo shortage. 

Edited October 23, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[-N7-Leonhart]

Just now, (XB1)FCastle74 said:

Also a new syndacite with a melee that gives u ammo per proc would be another possible solution. 

Good idea. Also, every weapon should come with in-built Primed Ammo Mutation system. Then, they should add an extra slot on each weapon where we can only put an Ammo Mutation mod. That should tweak things a bit.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

1 minute ago, (XB1)FCastle74 said:

A new syndacite melee, primary, secondary that gives u ammo per proc is another solution to your ammo shortage. 

I disagree, but make a thread suggesting it, and I would be happy to discuss it with you there.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

27 minutes ago, -BM-Leonhart said:

Good idea. Also, every weapon should come with in-built Primed Ammo Mutation system. Then, they should add an extra slot on each weapon where we can only put an Ammo Mutation mod. That should tweak things a bit.

Meh every proc fills your primary  magazine or reserve ammo capacity using a syndacite melee/gun type..like the sarpa or redeemer ... i think it would be kinda cool.  

Edited October 23, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[Squick]

On 10/21/2016 at 4:48 PM, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Replace limited ammo with infinite ammo. Use ammo capacity and reload times for balance instead (think Earth Defense Force) and truly embrace the arcadey feel of Warframe.

Carrier.

Ammo mutation.

Ammo restores as gear.

 

If you are running out of ammo with all of those as options you are doing something seriously wrong. There are plenty of things in game already to manage your ammo consumption.

[-N7-Leonhart]

6 minutes ago, (XB1)FCastle74 said:

Meh every proc fills your magazine in a melee/gun type..like the sarpa or redeemer ... i think it would be kinda cool.  

Joking aside, there is a very easy way to gain an endless supply of ammo. Primed Ammo Mutation + Rifle / Shotgun / Pistol scavenger aura. The aura will multipliy the mutation as well, making you pick up like 1000 ammo just from a couple ammo drops. Since Ammo Case is now a thing, this gives even more ammo (ypeeee!).

Always doing this with a Kohm with +150% fire rate on and my ammo always stays capped.

[Bobtm]

2 hours ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

That's because all of the arguments have already been presented in the thread. Arguments which you keep ignoring, btw. I am just getting tired of repeating them constantly.

 

The points you've put forth aren't grounded within either logic, sensibility, or balancing in any feasible light.

A bad idea can be repeated till the cows come home, but it's still a bad idea based on failed claims.  Ammo is a balancing point for example.  That is a hard truth, it is used as a balancing point across many games, including this very game itself.  Claiming that it is not, doesn't change the fact that it is.  The Synoid Gammacor for instance was problematic for having pinpoint accuracy, and incredibly high DPS.  When DE noted that they were going to look at the gun, the playerbase who utilized it claimed "don't make it weaker, we "need" that DPS".  So, in lieu of this, DE chose to modify its ammo efficiency to balance the weapon.

You can pretend that ammo isn't a balancing point as much as you'd like to, however the fact of the matter is that it is a balancing point.

so let's sum this up neatly;

1. Picking up pickups is not bad design.  Looting based games have done this for many, many years.  This is an actual and irrefutable fact.
2. Ammo efficiency is a way in which weaponry can be balanced in games.  And within this game, it is used precisely for this.  This is also a fact.
3. Your proposed change causes a very long list of balancing issues, and breaks a lot more things than it hopes to fix.
4. The number of weapons that legitimately struggle with ammo consumption is very, very short.  No need to globally change all things for a handful of gear.
5. Reload times upwards of 10 seconds are incredibly arduous and tedious.  Nobody should ever want this, ever.

Part of the ammo economy issue is to further the usage of a balanced/synergetic loadout for instance.  I can run an ammo efficient weapon like a Tigris, bow, or some sniper and then have the Synoid Gammacor as my secondary.  Beyond that I also have access to my chosen melee weapon.  Having variable ammo usage on weapons promotes loadout variety.  Having infinite ammo on all the things means this is no longer present, and perpetuates that players just keep using only the guns that "attack all the things constantly and forever".

A player can also specify their build to improve ammo usage, to very powerful degrees.  This promotes build variability within loadouts for even more differences.

As a small aside (I dropped the quote accidentally at some point) but I noticed the mention of explosive ammo and sniper/bow ammo multiple times.  Quite some time ago now DE changed it so that these weapons no longer draw from the same pool, so this is also no longer an issue nor a pedestal for you to use for your point.

If a few weapons have excessive ammo issues, then the solution is not to entirely ruin the rest of the game's balance for those weapons.  The correct solution in this case is to directly address the ammo consumption rates of the weapons in question in some manner.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

19 minutes ago, Bobtm said:

A bad idea can be repeated till the cows come home, but it's still a bad idea based on failed claims.  Ammo is a balancing point for example.  That is a hard truth

except, it's not and WF functions very differently than most shooters. Like I said before it much more arcadey in nature.

19 minutes ago, Bobtm said:

1. Picking up pickups is not bad design.  Looting based games have done this for many, many years.  This is an actual and irrefutable fact.
2. Ammo efficiency is a way in which weaponry can be balanced in games.  And within this game, it is used precisely for this.  This is also a fact.
3. Your proposed change causes a very long list of balancing issues, and breaks a lot more things than it hopes to fix.
4. The number of weapons that legitimately struggle with ammo consumption is very, very short.  No need to globally change all things for a handful of gear.
5. Reload times upwards of 10 seconds are incredibly arduous and tedious.  Nobody should ever want this, ever.

1. it is a fact that many games have done it. It is an opinion as to whether it is good or not. In WF, I don't think it is good.
2. Again, context matters, and it just doesn't work in WF. The game is just too different from the current popular shooters.
3. It doesn't. It creates no new issues not already caused by TARs. The only thing that they would need to change is reload times.
4. I already said I would be fine with it only affecting super weapons.
5. I am not opposed to a 10 second cap or having super-weapons regen ammo in the background.

Edited October 24, 2016 by (PS4)DesecratedFlame

[Tricky5hift]

55 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

except, it's not and WF functions very differently than most shooters. Like I said before it much more arcadey in nature

How is it arcadey?

There isn't even a scoreboard >.<

Just because WF functions differently from shooters doesn't mean it can't take basic concepts that almost any game can use.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

How is it not? A score board has nothing to do with it.

Lots of shooters have infinite ammo too.

 

Seriously though, what is your definition for arcadey, because I am sensing a disconnect here.

[(PSN)abbacephas]

2 hours ago, Rhekemi said:

WHAT THE ACTUAL LIVING F#@K?!

Am I dreaming, or is this real life?

I remember saying this:

And this:

Then you told me this:

You disregarded my alternate solutions because you were too busy dogmatically defending your own. But now it's kosher?

You didn't debate or discuss this in good faith at all.

I...I have...no...I'm speechless. 

Well, almost speechless.

You do remind me of me, you know that? I used to do exactly what you just did, too. I had to learn to stop.

Learn to stop and listen, my dude.

Have a good day, and I mean that. 

Now you're beginning to see it, aren't you. The futility, the pointlessness, that drives good men to not take anything the OP says seriously.

[Tricky5hift]

16 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

How is it not? A score board has nothing to do with it.

Lots of shooters have infinite ammo too.

 

Seriously though, what is your definition for arcadey, because I am sensing a disconnect here.

Arcadey means that realism has been sacrificed in favor of fun. For instance in racing games, a "driving simulator" is very realistic, but a more arcade-style racer lets you run into stuff and do big drifts around the corners and just keep the throttle to the floor all the time

Having increased reload time is not fun IMO.

DE never said they wanted their game to play like this. The way they design their game is up to them but I can assure you they want to keep a sense of realism in the game. And balance for that matter.

Have you ever considered that the whole reason why there are ammo pickups is to make the player feel more in touch with the game rather than just running around shooting everything?

If you want a game that doesn't take itself too seriously, go play Overwatch.

Oh and wouldn't you know, it has unlimited ammo.

Edited October 24, 2016 by Tricky5hift

[Volinus7]

For realistic sake. Let's add ammo to melee too :D

You know like "Warframe before it was cool" where melee weapons have limited uses.

Or like Monhun where your sword gets dull after each slash and you need a whetstone to sharpen it.