Dev Stream 82: Endless Relic missions feedback

[DeMonkey]

10 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

If it already has everything it needs then everything else it's gathering is purely due to greed. Greed is a negative attribute-- taking more than one needs, particularly in a multiplayer game that has trading, can lead to inflation of the economy, which can lead to bad pricing, unfriendly barriers to entry, and can lead to the developer tailoring costs around those that have taken far more than they need (SEE: adjusting cryotic costs, ducat costs, oxium costs, etc).

That analogy is bad.

The analogy is fine, it just makes me look bad.

But that's okay, at the end of the day I had fun.

Also, any free to play game that can draw in this much playtime from its player base is going to have hoarding issues. That is just an unfortunate fact. Personally I consider the fact that hoarding is that much of an issue as a compliment towards the game.

[Chipputer]

1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

Personally I consider the fact that hoarding is that much of an issue as a compliment towards the game.

I would say it's more a testament to the fact that there's nothing to do but hoard, but you say potato, I say potato, I guess.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

27 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

Greed is a negative attribute

Nah, greed is what makes the world go round. Games, including Warframe, would not even exist without greed. DE wants to make more money than they "need" to survive.

[Angrados]

3 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

This is the inevitable point in free to play where the desire to make money (from prime access) takes precedence over player enjoyment. It comes with every free game - that point where a slowly fading game in decline reaches a place where it's need to bring in revenue outweighs the need to provide an enjoyable experience.

Warframe has reached that point.

It never ends well. The game always goes under. And this one will, too, if it doesn't change.

We need rewards NOT tied to the business model. Still we have to PLAY to obtain. Stuff that isn't available to trade. Or for cash. Stuff DE cannot hold over us with their increasingly punitive business model.

Mmmph. 

I want to disagree with you, but I'm having a hard time articulating the thought. 

Fudge it, let's try it anyway.

I don't see where these "rewards tied to the business model" are. Perhaps you can point them out, and then explain to me how DE is actually some sort of evil P2W company screwing over the hapless players who just want their endless back so they can do things the game was never meant to be able to even do. 

Or not. I frankly don't care much.

I know that we've discussed power creep before, at least once or twice. I think that this complaining about the relic system is a symptom of that. Effectively, the player base got nerfed--hard. DE decided that basically living in the Void grinding for primes in order to sell them for plat on the market wasn't healthy for the game (which it wasn't, tbh) and changed it so that it was interactive. All of those plat farmers suddenly were left jilted by the sudden shift, and thus the complaints began. The nerf was necessary, and to a degree from a balancing standpoint it was inevitable. Giving your players the opportunity to basically just plug in time for buttloads of resources and money was and still is a massively uneven exchange, and it upsets the balance and focus of the game. In a way, the developers decided they wanted Warframe, not Grindframe, and it's a choice I applaud.

Now, don't misread my intentions-- I quite miss those good times in the Void. I spent hours there grinding for stuff, hanging out with people, the whole nine yards. In a lot of ways I felt like it made the game something fun in that you could be social during the middle of an extended Void run. There is a communal aspect that disappeared with Endless and what that entailed during the SotR update, and I think that this step, while it might be one in the right direction, isn't quite enough to solve the problem entirely. However, I also understand the need for that sort of grind to go away, especially when the neverending grind ended up burning out players. It creats an unhealthy meta, which leads to an increasingly toxic community.

The fact remains that we don't know what's going on inside of DE. They've been remarkably transparent about a lot of things, and that's something that the entire community has greatly appreciated. However, we also can't judge them and their development philosophy, which they haven't really made known to us, simply based off of what we are getting. The game is still being actively developed, and in that way things are liable to change. Really, though, the bottom line is that they're feeling their way through it, and I hope that they find their way. I enjoy the game quite a bit, even if I don't play it as regularly as I used to, and I am quite looking forward to TWW. Hopefully, though, after TWW they put the brakes on and start paying attention to some of the other areas of the game that need some attention. Only time will tell.

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

32 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

1 relic to 1 reward. If you run with 3 other people, sure, it's 4 relics for 1 reward, that way, but you're still inputting 1 and receiving 1. Void Traces are only a thing for people looking for specific rewards and I have always acknowledged that it's a pretty janky, time consuming system, but it's there to help skew your rewards in your favor. Yes, it could use some tweaks, but that's another topic entirely.

It entirely depends on where you're farming. If you're farming on a high level interception map then you're getting Neo/Neo/Axi/Axi. High level defenses offer similar rewards, but with many more other items mixed in.

This will come down to tactically choosing when and where to farm if you want a replacement relic for the one you spent. That's it.

Reward:relic is 1:1, yes, but that's not what people perceive as a problem. Time:reward is the concern.

I was not aware that high-level interception could award Neo relics in rot A. That's interesting. Until the TSG update, consoles were using outdated tables with an obscene drop rate for relics on all rotations when a fissure was present. That's gone now (but I'd like to see it come back with the new endless fissures). I haven't been playing much recently so I'm not super familiar with the new tables. Are there any survival missions with Neo/Axi drops in rot A? If so, then my argument is only a real concern with excavation. However, it's still not quite 1:1 because you're not earning as many relics as you're eating.

One thing I haven't seen anyone bring up is how rotations will work in excavation, which has the fastest rotations by far, and rotations can overlap. The most obvious solution is to let players equip a new relic at rot C. This would make excavation the best relic/trace farming mission type, even moreso than it already is. But in the cases of both survival and excavation, there are still enemies around at the end of a rotation. Are you invulnerable during selection? Do enemies automatically die or despawn? These are important questions.

If DE does find some way to enable relic upgrading in half-time, all these problems will evaporate for players who can afford perpetual stack boosters. Think the highest I've seen was 160 traces from a single mission... In any case, whatever the arguments against endless fissures, they should be very welcome. You can always opt out of the next rotation and simply get traces, while the others bring relics.

One complaint I absolutely agree with--especially now--is that DE refuses to support 'key sharing'. Their position made sense before, but the new system emphasizes cooperation far more than keys. It no longer makes sense not to offer some way for players to ensure their squad is ponying up the agreed-upon relics. Convincing DE of this may take time. I can think of a few ways of accomplishing this, but they each involve concessions among squadmates.

Edited October 30, 2016 by (PS4)BlitzKeir

[(PSN)Tenchi145]

13 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Nah, greed is what makes the world go round. Games, including Warframe, would not even exist without greed. DE wants to make more money than they "need" to survive.

Are you sure about that? I'm as liberal as they come but with the list of demands that the playerbase keeps throwing out this equates to more time spent in the office which means overtime and more compensation for time spent. More DDoS attacks equates to needing more secure servers which also cost money.

So honestly I'm at disagreement with thatentire premise.

[Kyronz]

endless trace grind is pointless, when is anyone not at the punitively low trace cap (1200 for me) after getting the first week or two after gear release?

Trace farming is only applicable when new gear is released and then only for a few weeks, in the old key system after those 2 weeks you could farm keys to prepare for new release...under new system there is way to prepare for new gear drops and running the same old sortie months at a time is dull.

[Chipputer]

1 minute ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

Reward:relic is 1:1, yes, but that's not what people perceive as a problem. Investment:reward is the concern.

Again, that comes down to the Void Trace system being janky and in need of some form of overhaul. It sounded much better, on paper, than it ends up being, in practice, as many things often do. Unfortunately, I don't have any better ideas, so I stay silent on the matter, for the most part.

2 minutes ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

Are there any survival missions with Neo/Axi drops in rot A?

I don't do survival for relics very often so I can't answer that, but generally the survival rotations mirror the defense rotations with slightly different pools, based on their level. Most probably have Meso in A and B, though, as per usual reward imbalances.

3 minutes ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

However, it's still not quite 1:1 because you're not earning as many relics as you're eating.

The 1:1 you're speaking of seems to be a reward of the same relic you just spent. The 1:1 that reality shows is relic to reward and that's all it needs to be. Like it or not, farming relics is a way to pad out gameplay in between updates and it's a necessary evil until they get some true endgame content going.

4 minutes ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

One thing I haven't seen anyone bring up is how rotations will work in excavation

They also haven't shown anything related to survival. So far the only ideas have revolved around missions with breaks, unfortunately.

It reveals an inherent problem with the relic system, being that it was never designed to be pushed the direction they're trying to take it now. Here's hoping it gets overhauled when they fully realize this.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)Tenchi145 said:

Are you sure about that?

Yes.

[(PSN)Tenchi145]

No proof just your speculation though. I mean neither one of us know the truth as is so eh.

[(PSN)Del-ProdigyT]

This does nothing to change how I play really it just makes me not want to do endless survivals for prime parts even if I could go an hour plus.  Axi relics are very tedious to farm having them burn up every 5 minutes unrefined just sounds extremely wasteful.  What I do is spam spy fissure missions which give me a relic for a relic and heircon the result is the axi's become neo the neo's become meso and so on and I don't need to back track farming low level areas for crappy rewards for lith to neo relics.  This change is pointless it doesn't do anything but further give people no cause to do survival fissure missions. 

I bet what their seeing is some players like myself are starting to swell up with relics to the point where they feel the need to burn them to make the vaulting of goods effective.  The relic system isn't going to really work out in the long run without DE really amping up the pace of primes being released and vaulted.  The pace of content is just too damn slow I think is the problem for this relic system to work for DE's f2p business model and will actually cost them in the long run them.

Edited October 30, 2016 by (PS4)Del-ProdigyT

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)Tenchi145 said:

No proof just your speculation though. I mean neither one of us know the truth as is so eh.

I can guarantee you that they are making more than minimum wage.

[Chipputer]

36 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Nah, greed is what makes the world go round. Games, including Warframe, would not even exist without greed. DE wants to make more money than they "need" to survive.

Greed isn't what makes the world go 'round.

Despite popular opinion, capitalistic systems aren't greed machines and you're wrong for implying such. Leaving it at that, will not respond to you if you respond to this, it's off topic.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

1 minute ago, Chipputer said:

Greed isn't what makes the world go 'round.

Despite popular opinion, capitalistic systems aren't greed machines and you're wrong for implying such. Leaving it at that, will not respond to you if you respond to this, it's off topic.

You don't have to respond, as long as you understand you are wrong. They are greed machines and greed is not inherently bad so saying a system should not be in WF just because "muh greed" is a flawed argument.

 

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

2 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

The 1:1 you're speaking of seems to be a reward of the same relic you just spent. The 1:1 that reality shows is relic to reward and that's all it needs to be. Like it or not, farming relics is a way to pad out gameplay in between updates and it's a necessary evil until they get some true endgame content going.

I understand your point. I chose my words poorly in the first sentence, edited afterward. Let me try and explain what I mean in detail.

For players like you and me who had barrels of keys, we have mountains of Lith/Meso relics, 20+ of most Axi relics, and probably a healthy amount of Neo relics as well. Before, you would equip a relic, find a squad and run it. But going to rot C in any endless type inherently meant you were earning more relics than you were spending. Burn one relic, get 2-4. It's true that almost no one was running endless for relics, that's not my point. My point is, eventually, you would run out of 'trash' relics that you could afford to run just for ducats or something. You'd have to dip into desirable relics. And after a long period of time, you would eventually be at the same threshold as players who started after Specters, and have to actively farm for relics of any given variety.

With new endless fissures, that will happen much sooner. Neo will be the first, since T3 keys were the least common and most profitable. Axi will be next. But it won't be as simple as the old system, where you needed to farm a key and run it. You also need traces. 100 of them per relic, if you want the rare part. That's an average of 8 rotations, or 8 non-endless missions, just to upgrade a relic to Radiant. And an average of 10 Radiants if no squad will take you. That's an average of 80 missions for one part.

If you're only after ducats, then only rarity matters. But cosmetic items are the main dump for plat, and desirable in their own right. If you're hunting parts to sell, value is all over the place. Often only specific parts will do, so there's a preciousness of relics apart from their actual rarity. I, uh... was going somewhere with that, but I forget my overall point. Need more coffee if I'm gonna continue this discussion. I am enjoying it.

But to be clear, I am absolutely not against endless fissures. I think the advantages are not as apparent to veterans. I recently went back to my old PC account which has only an Ember and Loki to see what the early game is like now, and while I am having fun (the early game difficulty is so well balanced), the amount of work it would take to get a Prime frame is daunting... My Ember can barely handle 1100 cryotic at Heiracon. Endless fissures introduce an inherent advantage, since I can farm for traces and relics at the same time. It cuts out some of the time investment if you are targeting specific relics in rots B and C, which is great. But like you said, there's no reason for us to do that unless a new Prime has just dropped. If you're bringing a relic to every rotation, which is the optimal situation for people in our boat, you will eventually run out. And you certainly won't have enough traces to Radiant them all.

[(PSN)Tenchi145]

35 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

I can guarantee you that they are making more than minimum wage.

As game developers I would hope so.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Tenchi145 said:

As game developers I would hope so.

Then my point is made.

[(PSN)Tenchi145]

1 minute ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Then my point is made.

As is mine. 

[Hemmo67]

flames are burning hard.

marshamallows anyone? maybe grilled sausage or femur? :3

[Chipputer]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

My point is, eventually, you would run out of 'trash' relics that you could afford to run just for ducats or something. You'd have to dip into desirable relics. And after a long period of time, you would eventually be at the same threshold as players who started after Specters, and have to actively farm for relics of any given variety.

With new endless fissures, that will happen much sooner. Neo will be the first, since T3 keys were the least common and most profitable.

I'm snipping it down to this just to make it easier for you to see where my focus is lying with this response, but I'm not ignoring everything else you're saying.

I see no problem with this. There are plenty of ways to earn relics, including spending spare syndicate standing. Having to go out and grab a few, now and again, isn't that big of a deal, to me, and I honestly don't understand why it is to so many others.

Without trying to sound like I'm on a high horse, it honestly comes across as a bit spoiled. "I've always just... had enough and never had to farm them before now. Why would you make me do it so suddenly?"

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Tenchi145 said:

As is mine. 

Which was?

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

7 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

I'm snipping it down to this just to make it easier for you to see where my focus is lying with this response, but I'm not ignoring everything else you're saying.

I see no problem with this. There are plenty of ways to earn relics, including spending spare syndicate standing. Having to go out and grab a few, now and again, isn't that big of a deal, to me, and I honestly don't understand why it is to so many others.

Without trying to sound like I'm on a high horse, it honestly comes across as a bit spoiled. "I've always just... had enough and never had to farm them before now. Why would you make me do it so suddenly?"

(Debating on five hours of sleep, without coffee. Read at your own risk.)

Yeah, it is really just about maintaining status-quo. Some people react like it's a disaster, even though it wouldn't affect them for quite some time. Systems will probably have changed by then, anyway. And like I said in the last paragraph there, the new system is better in a way for post-Specters players. This issue always comes back to the grind. But that would inevitably take us off-topic. I'll just say what I'm fond of saying and leave it at that: "Grinding is only a bad thing if what you're actually doing isn't interesting."

Also, guys, we're having a debate about whether we're making enough fake currency in a free video game. Maybe it's not the best time to poorly discuss 'privilege'.

Edited October 30, 2016 by (PS4)BlitzKeir

[Chipputer]

1 minute ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

(Debating on five hours of sleep, without coffee. Read at your own risk.)

Yeah, it is really just about maintaining status-quo. Some people react like it's a disaster, even though it wouldn't affect them for quite some time. Systems will probably have changed by then, anyway. And like I said in the last paragraph there, the new system is better in a way for post-Specters players. This issue always comes back to the grind. But that would inevitably take us off-topic. I'll just say what I'm fond of saying: "Grinding is only a bad thing if what you're actually doing isn't interesting."

Also, guys, we're having a debate about whether we're making enough fake currency in a free video game. Maybe it's not the best time to poorly discuss 'privilege'.

Y'know, I don't really think what we're doing is entirely, "debating," anymore. I think we both overall agree, we're just discussing the fine print, at this point. :P

I think it really just comes down to waiting and seeing. Hopefully they'll tweak the system to make it more friendly toward endless runs, but there are things that they shouldn't budge on, no matter what a vocal minority of players keep insisting. I'm still waiting to see what they do with the Void (hoping it's not just replacing prime stuff with umbra stuff). Once I see that, I'll have a better launch point to see what I think of where they should take relics.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

3 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

no matter what a vocal minority of players keep insisting

You do realize that everyone on the forums is a vocal minority, right?

[Chipputer]

Just now, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

You do realize that everyone on the forums is a vocal minority, right?

No. I just use that phrase because it sounds smart.