[Spoiler] Dev Workshop: New Mods Part 1!

[Cyanidekiller24]

 

5 minutes ago, BadxHero said:

Okay, that's all good and fine. But you do realize that doing that will just make the power creep int his game even HIGHER, right? Or do you simply hate nerfs/rebalances so much that you would rather that we have a broken system instead of a balanced one that actually JUSTIFIES the use of Riven Mods? I can understand your like for the system due to the the way that the mods themselves actually promote weapon versatility and player creativity, sure. But what I think you're missing is that the point of these forums isn't just to blindly say that this is good and it doesn't need changing, which is completely false, because the Riven Mod system in and of itself is very, very broken and poorly designed. To be frank, by encouraging this, not only are you not helping them improve their game, you are also giving them an excuse to put as little thought as possible as to the consequences broken things such as this. 

ummm......try doing a 5hr survival mission and the soma prime is doing no damage at that point. These mods were to balance out the enemy scaling at the higher tiers. and I have a small question for you. So you want to die in sorties and high level missions when you finally got the mod you wanted, vengeful revenant, you fail the mission because people decide to not work as a team and the weapons don't do any damage? 

-Cyanidekiller24

[polarity]

33 minutes ago, Cyanidekiller24 said:

soon everyone will have the mod that they want

I'm sorry, I hadn't realised someone had invented time machine, and that they were in wide public use, because that is just about the only way 'everyone' will be able to get every riven mod they want 'soon'.

• From sorties only, so you only have a chance to get at most 1 mod a day.  More likely you'll be damn lucky if you get one a week.
• How many weapons are there?  And how many do you think anyone would want mods for?  Make your chance of getting one you want more like once every 3 months.
• Now you'll probably have to reroll the stats to get something useful, except the cost goes up so that after a certain point it's just too much work, making a lot of the mods you got permanently junk.

You'll be lucky to get one mod in two years.

'soon'.  ROLMAO.

Edited November 16, 2016 by polarity

[Cyanidekiller24]

dude, I got 3 legendary cores from the sorties in a month. chill.

[Virsalus]

1 minute ago, Cyanidekiller24 said:

 

ummm......try doing a 5hr survival mission and the soma prime is doing no damage at that point. These mods were to balance out the enemy scaling at the higher tiers. and I have a small question for you. So you want to die in sorties and high level missions when you finally got the mod you wanted, vengeful revenant, you fail the mission because people decide to not work as a team and the weapons don't do any damage? 

-Cyanidekiller24

Because 5hr survival missions is what people usually do, right?

[Virsalus]

Just now, Cyanidekiller24 said:

dude, I got 3 legendary cores from the sorties in a month. chill.

I have been doing sorties for more than a month and I got one and already consider myself lucky as most people I know haven't seen one in an even longer time. You can't just judge from your own experience. You got lucky, that is all. Not everyone else is you.

[RacerDelux]

1 minute ago, Virsalus said:

I have been doing sorties for more than a month and I got one and already consider myself lucky as most people I know haven't seen one in an even longer time. You can't just judge from your own experience. You got lucky, that is all. Not everyone else is you.

Really it is too early to say it is easy to get/too hard to get.... We need at least a month to see how common it is.

[Cyanidekiller24]

also if we nerf the "meta" weapons then there would be no difference between the braton prime and the soma prime but that is the point of the game is that all the weapons are different. As I said before, the braton prime is different from the soma prime. And while we are at it, let's just make the different weapons just purchasable skins for the same stupid weapon so that every one can be happy and stop complaining. 

[Virsalus]

1 minute ago, RacerDelux said:

Really it is too early to say it is easy to get/too hard to get.... We need at least a month to see how common it is.

That is true. However for something as random as this mods, one chance per day is just too low, regardless of how big it is.

[RacerDelux]

Just now, Virsalus said:

That is true. However for something as random as this mods, one chance per day is just too low, regardless of how big it is.

Agreed, I would be happy if was guaranteed to get a Riven Mod once per week. In addition, I would love to see the ability to get a new Riven Mod by combining two Riven mods (maybe two we don't need/want)

Edited November 16, 2016 by RacerDelux

[Cyanidekiller24]

I don't understand why people are so upset that all the primary weapons that have available riven mods can get a buff from the riven mods. I doesn't make sense to me. If you don't like the mod then sell it. The saying goes, when life gives you bad lemons, you give them back.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Cyanidekiller24

[Virsalus]

16 minutes ago, Cyanidekiller24 said:

I don't understand why people are so upset that all the primary weapons that have available riven mods can get a buff from the riven mods. I doesn't make sense to me. If you don't like the mod then sell it. The saying goes, when life gives you bad lemons, you give them back.

This is not about particular mods. All this criticism and feedback is regarding the system as a whole.

[CorrinAvatan]

30 minutes ago, Cyanidekiller24 said:

 

ummm......try doing a 5hr survival mission and the soma prime is doing no damage at that point. These mods were to balance out the enemy scaling at the higher tiers. and I have a small question for you. So you want to die in sorties and high level missions when you finally got the mod you wanted, vengeful revenant, you fail the mission because people decide to not work as a team and the weapons don't do any damage? 

-Cyanidekiller24

 

And say that you get your damage buff, great... except, due to the exponential way that enemies scale, you're still going to hit the wall you hit now.  It just might be at 5 hours, 30 minutes, instead.

It's great that you can do a five hour survival, but you kind of need to step back and think "hey, what about the OTHER 95% of the players of the game"?

Not everyone can even sit down and do a five hour survival, not due to skill or mods or whatever, but simply due to TIME.  There are plenty of people who would love to do sorties, but can't, due to the limited playtime that they have available to them.

I GET what you're saying, but you have to realize that the 2hr+ endless community is very, VERY small, (yes, vocal as all heck) compared to the rest of the playerbase.

Adding more damage to a soma isn't going to "fix" your problem, it just delays when you hit the wall.  The Riven mods, according to the post, weren't supposed to fix that problem; I think it is more pertinent to look at the problem that they tried to fix, and whether it actually did that or not.

You appear to me to be confusing that with "oh, well it affected a problem that I have in a way I like, so it is good."  It is valid criticism, but your point misses the fact that it WASN'T what DE says they intended to do.

[CorrinAvatan]

29 minutes ago, Cyanidekiller24 said:

I don't understand why people are so upset that all the primary weapons that have available riven mods can get a buff from the riven mods. I doesn't make sense to me. If you don't like the mod then sell it. The saying goes, when life gives you bad lemons, you give them back.

That is not the point that most people in this thread are making.

The problems that have been laid out are:

1.  The possible list of benefits you can roll on a riven mod, can range from absurdly stupid (+189% puncture damage on Dread, which does 5 puncture damage, yay, now I'm doing almost 15 puncture damage!), to mostly useless (120 % Magazine Size on a Bow, 120% crit chance on a 2.5% crit chance and 1.5x crit modifier Karak ), to useful or heartbreakingly good (189% crit chance on a Dread)

2.  The idea that DE states that they want to encourage people to "try the mod before you reroll it" doesn't make sense, when you can roll a mod that has as its' drawback -157% damage (jokingly called a "heal the enemy" mod).  They talk as if every mod should be at least moderately good, but many people have shown doing multiple cycles only to get illogical mods over and over and over again, that simply do not increase the viability of the weapon its' for.

3.  Obtaining kuva for re-rolls is RNG, on top of that re-rolling does a complete RNG roll of the stats, of which of (for example) the 30 stats you can roll, 25 might not be beneficial for the weapon in question, and that two different mods with the same MR requirement and the same roll, can have a variance of 100% for the stat rolled (I saw two Dread Crit Chance/Damage mods that rolled 12/115 and 157/189, yet are both MR 18.  So, high probability your weapon will get a bad roll, increasing cost to reroll, and no ability to "lock" in GOOD portions of a roll, and additional RNG just to be able to get the resource to be able to cycle it.

I couldn't care LESS that Dreads got more Dreadier in some cases.  What I do care about is they said this system is supposed to encourage people to be able to have sortie-viable builds for non-meta weapons as well, but the way it is implemented does not seem to meet that goal.

 

[Guest]

Honestly I'm finding this system to be complete garbage.  You're attempting to put all guns in the game on a level playing field that's only reachable by trudging through an insurmountable mountain of RNG trash.  Yeah, you may make crappy guns get innately better riven mods by simply amplifying the range of stats that they're able to generate.  That still doesn't change the fact that you're going to have to farm for years before you get A- a riven mod, any riven mod at all from sorties, B- a riven for the gun you want, and C- stats on said riven that actually complement said gun.  You could literally spend your entire life rerolling rivens and never get a mod that will make your favorite low-level garbage gun on par with a meta gun. 

Looking at meta guns and this system makes you wonder what the heck is the point.  Most of the rivens I've seen rolled by myself and others amounted to either nothing more than a dual stat mod with a minor QoL perk tacked on, or utter garbage.  If you nerf the Riven potential for meta guns, then there will never be any reason whatsoever to expend the time and energy on rivens for those weapons since standard mods that are WAY easier to get will do the job just as well, if not better.  Riven mods drain 18 mod points off your gun.  Stuff like bladed rounds drains half that and will likely have a stronger effect than a nerfed meta riven.  The only point whereat rivens can provide incentive to the player is when they make an old, low level, crappy gun a lot BETTER than, or on par with but a LOT more fun than the meta guns.  Leaving the meta gun rivens unchanged while significantly buffing rivens for low end guns is really the only option here if you want rivens to be worth the time and effort.  Even then, the RNG grind is still way too much.

Rivens appear to completely lack any interesting modifying effects apart from baseline stats.  They all draw from the same basic projectile statistics: damage, crit, status, accuracy, fire rate, recoil, reload, clip size, etc regardless of what gun they're for (I've seen a lot of panthera mods with crit, crit damage).  There're a lot off things that have been introduced in unique mods that have far better effects than any riven in this system when it comes to interesting game play potential as well as scalability potential.  Stuff like blast radius, enemy detonation on death, damage distribution through blocking, projectile ricochet, syndicate procs with base stat increases, etc.  These things provide interesting game play that is worthwhile to a lot of players.  I know a lot of people with 4-6 forma in sobeks and drakgoons because of the special mods you can get for those guns.  90% of the time they'll tell you that "yeah it's not the best end game gun, but it's a blast to use everywhere else".  The problem with a lot of these mods is that they tend to provide just a little buff, or just a little more flavor.  They're not pushing guns to the meta level.  In my opinion, that's fine.  I think flavor guns are great, even if only for low level stuff.  But I think the player base would be better served if these mods were game changers that did boost guns to meta levels.  Flavor and variety would be great in the Riven system.  In fact, I think it's very much needed.  If all you do is buff the base stats of the weapons with Riven mods, then you're just gonna end up with a bunch of guns that sound and operate mostly the same, but look different.  You'll have sobeks and boars, struns and heks, bratons somas gorgons and grakatas; all basically the same as each others like once they're equipped with the proposed re-balancing Riven mod.  You'll get a massive homogenization of guns, with the only differences being left between variants of the same guns: standard, wraith/vandal/prisma, prime, etc.  Why not throw in unique effects for potential weapon rolls?  I haven't seen any + range mods for beam weapons or blast radius for launchers, and it'd probably be easy to integrate that into the system.

[CorrinAvatan]

49 minutes ago, Cyanidekiller24 said:

dude, I got 3 legendary cores from the sorties in a month. chill.

and I've been playing since 2014 and have never gotten one.  If you think because you got lucky, everyone else must be lucky too, why aren't we all millionaires who have won the real world lotteries?

 

[CorrinAvatan]

3 minutes ago, TheDefenestrater said:

Honestly I'm finding this system to be complete garbage.  You're attempting to put all guns in the game on a level playing field that's only reachable by trudging through an insurmountable mountain of RNG trash.  Yeah, you may make crappy guns get innately better riven mods by simply amplifying the range of stats that they're able to generate.  That still doesn't change the fact that you're going to have to farm for years before you get A- a riven mod, any riven mod at all from sorties, B- a riven for the gun you want, and C- stats on said riven that actually complement said gun.  You could literally spend your entire life rerolling rivens and never get a mod that will make your favorite low-level garbage gun on par with a meta gun. 

Looking at meta guns and this system makes you wonder what the heck is the point.  Most of the rivens I've seen rolled by myself and others amounted to either nothing more than a dual stat mod with a minor QoL perk tacked on, or utter garbage.  If you nerf the Riven potential for meta guns, then there will never be any reason whatsoever to expend the time and energy on rivens for those weapons since standard mods that are WAY easier to get will do the job just as well, if not better.  Riven mods drain 18 mod points off your gun.  Stuff like bladed rounds drains half that and will likely have a stronger effect than a nerfed meta riven.  The only point whereat rivens can provide incentive to the player is when they make an old, low level, crappy gun a lot BETTER than, or on par with but a LOT more fun than the meta guns.  Leaving the meta gun rivens unchanged while significantly buffing rivens for low end guns is really the only option here if you want rivens to be worth the time and effort.  Even then, the RNG grind is still way too much.

Rivens appear to completely lack any interesting modifying effects apart from baseline stats.  They all draw from the same basic projectile statistics: damage, crit, status, accuracy, fire rate, recoil, reload, clip size, etc regardless of what gun they're for (I've seen a lot of panthera mods with crit, crit damage).  There're a lot off things that have been introduced in unique mods that have far better effects than any riven in this system when it comes to interesting game play potential as well as scalability potential.  Stuff like blast radius, enemy detonation on death, damage distribution through blocking, projectile ricochet, syndicate procs with base stat increases, etc.  These things provide interesting game play that is worthwhile to a lot of players.  I know a lot of people with 4-6 forma in sobeks and drakgoons because of the special mods you can get for those guns.  90% of the time they'll tell you that "yeah it's not the best end game gun, but it's a blast to use everywhere else".  The problem with a lot of these mods is that they tend to provide just a little buff, or just a little more flavor.  They're not pushing guns to the meta level.  In my opinion, that's fine.  I think flavor guns are great, even if only for low level stuff.  But I think the player base would be better served if these mods were game changers that did boost guns to meta levels.  Flavor and variety would be great in the Riven system.  In fact, I think it's very much needed.  If all you do is buff the base stats of the weapons with Riven mods, then you're just gonna end up with a bunch of guns that sound and operate mostly the same, but look different.  You'll have sobeks and boars, struns and heks, bratons somas gorgons and grakatas; all basically the same as each others like once they're equipped with the proposed re-balancing Riven mod.  You'll get a massive homogenization of guns, with the only differences being left between variants of the same guns: standard, wraith/vandal/prisma, prime, etc.  Why not throw in unique effects for potential weapon rolls?  I haven't seen any + range mods for beam weapons or blast radius for launchers, and it'd probably be easy to integrate that into the system.

I think you're on point.

[Guest]

53 minutes ago, Cyanidekiller24 said:

dude, I got 3 legendary cores from the sorties in a month. chill.

Yeah, that's a statistical outlier if I ever saw one.

[FaLKReN]

I just don't get you people. How could anyone actually applaud a system like this?

So basically you get to farm a resource that you only have the chance to farm 25% of the time, and only specific nodes. Then you have to do the sorties to get a single mod with a very low drop chance once a day, for a random weapon with wildly varying stats (RNG overload). Now if you don't like it you can re-roll it for tons of the new resource, that you can never farm effectively for that 'perfect roll' which everybody knows will never come in your lifetime. (Just run the numbers)

I've been playing this game for more than 3 years now, and probably would've played it even more, had I known about it before. I never stopped playing it, bought platinum, endorsed the game to friends and I've been an honorable Tenno all this time...and with the introduction of Riven mods, I suddenly regret all of it (well except the last part). This just too much. And sorry [De]Rebecca, but this elementary level PR statement is just insulting to your player bases' intelligence.

Want to get older/bad weapons back into the mix? -> How about balancing them?

Want to give veteran players something to do? -> Create content that is enjoyable and can sustain the game? Polish older content/systems maybe, so it can be enjoyed by both new and veteran players?

Want to get an influx of new customers? -> How bout not creating insurmountable grind-walls before them so they leave the game as soon as they learn about them?

 

I'm just baffled with the decision to allow this system to be released. This has nothing to with risk. This is simply a really-really-really bad game design decision. If this is any indication, you no longer have any idea on how to develop this game further other than slapping good old RNG to anything and everything this game has to offer...

Edited November 16, 2016 by FaLKReN

[Boubonicus]

1 hour ago, PyroElleh said:

I was thinking about this a little earlier... (And forgive me if someone else has brought this up.)

What if the bonus damage values of Riven mods were made to be additive to the base stats of the weapon, but were much smaller values.   So for example....  +15% base crit chance.  Or +20 base puncture.

That could fundamentally change the way a weapon works and how it can be modded, giving us real reasons to revisit old weapons and "be creative" with them.  And make some other changes similar to what other people have suggested already - like unique utility effects such as +fire rate on headshot, and important balancing changes to the algorithms.

Still means that weapons with already really good stats would get a boost.  But it would also give weapons that perform poorly a truly meaningful buff.  Multiplicative values don't do much for stats that are already pretty small.

I did mention applying the bonuses to base earlier, and I still think its the best method to fix the issue of crap rolls along with removing things like +mag size to bows and such.  At least then it can add something where it wasn't before.  Like opening the option to crit build or status build a weapon that could not do that before.  I still think that the damage would still have to be a % of base added to base and not a flat number; +20 dmg is huge to something with low damage per shot, but is lackluster on snipers/launchers.  Translates to something like +200% dmg on soma versus the +10% dmg to the rubico on basic non-crit shot.  In any case, glad to see someone else bringing up adding to base.

Also, bolded your last statement for emphasis. 

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, CorrinAvatan said:

I think you're on point.

I think the major problem is like you said, though.  There doesn't seem to be any considerations on the potential stats rolled for a given gun.  That's why people are getting crit for panthera, clips size for bows, etc.  Simply adding a classification system into the rolls would help a lot with reducing the grind of the system by locking out utterly useless stats for a given gun.  It would also be necessary for implementing unique weapon modifiers like blast radius and range without getting those effects on weapons that can't make use of them.

At the same time, I think Pyroelleh and Boubonicus are onto something with the base stat modification concept, since that mean's previously useless stats can in fact become quite useful.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Guest

[DeadlyBannana]

Until re-rolling gets a decent cap not even gonna bother. My booster just ran out and after a dozen crappy roll my simulor riven mod is sitting at 9k roll cost with fire rate and maximum ammo riven mod. No extra riven mods from sorties either and I play them daily. Just run out of content to do already. 

[EN4TUN3]

I've been reading the replies to this thread on and off for a day or so and cant get my own thoughts out of my head, so I think I'm going to chime in.

Within my clan, I have a friend who tries to 'break' the meta (to go beyond it), my brother, who plays 'just with gear he likes', and two other friends who use whatever they are comfortable with. I have an odd reputation amongst my clan as I avoid meta gear. Almost religiously. I got rid of my Lanka after feeling guilty for using something as strong as it was.. I think the strongest weapon I have now is.. Possibly Vectis? I don't have anything against meta gear, I just personally find it boring to 'win' easily, and find the non meta gear more interesting to play with and unique because it's less commonly seen by nature of being non-meta. I just hit MR21, btw, so I've played with a 'fair bit' of the weapons in this game. I used Tigris before the shotgun buff, and haven't touched the Sancti version or the prime. (AND FEEL A SMALL AMOUNT OF PRIDE ABOUT THAT, IF YOU COULDN'T TELL.) Also -"The Soma family have mountains of artificial damage due to crit, fire like machineguns, and are as accurate as snipers.." So yeah, I don't use meta gear.

I say the previous to give a little context about me as a player. With that in mind, here's what I think about the new system:

I like the central idea. I like mods that make things better in general.. But your intent and the way the system works practically don't really match up very well, IMO..

First off, there are 2 things I think I'd like to suggest.

1, People who pick things because they are meta will not pick things that are sub meta. If a person seriously chooses gear because they consider it 'objectively better than other gear' the only way you will make them pick something different is by changing the meta. -Actually making other gear stronger than their current Tonkor.

2; I don't actually believe anybody does the above, Or atleast, it is a small minority. I am, however, rather sure that most people like things that 'work'. I'd argue that people pick meta weapons because meta weapons are strong. If I'm right, (and I think it's probably common sense to most people) -most people think that 'non-meta' 'weak' weapons, are bad, the only way to make the average person consider using 'weak' weapons is to make them 'not weak' (and thus the only valuable rivens for non-meta weapons are basically raw damage buffs. (crit buffs will only help weapons that can already crit, and will not help weapons that cant.)

See, I don't figure that any normal person is going to choose to use a weapon that cant output enough damage to compete with other weapons, regardless of how it feels. Even if I get a riven for my Buzlok (and I do use it, believe it or not) and it doesn't buff status, flight speed and raw damage in some way, I'm going to reroll it. Thus, the only thing the additional expense increase per roll does is hurt me. As many here have said, I'm not going to test a mod I know wont help me, I think I know that certain values aren't going to help me have more 'fun' with a given weapon, but I would love to be able to use some of the stat boosts that are available in the pool. Sadly, Most of the buffs I want to use are directly related to making the weapon 'better' -because 'better' would allow me to use it more and is more fun. I don't care much about how massive my numbers are, provided the weapon 'works'. To reiterate my point, I don't mind falling off a few levels before my friends in an hour long survival.. (I do mind falling off at level 30, however [#makefluxygreatagain]) -speaking of fluxy, I would totally love a +status +slash +punchthrough mod, but I want that mod so that my Flux Rifle can actually compete with some of the stronger weapons, for every roll I get that doesn't help me 'min-max' my fluxy the way I want to, I am left with a 'less useable' weapon.. As such, -atleast for me, I'm not min-maxing because 'I want the best numbers for my soma' I'm min-maxing because otherwise the weapon will remain as useless as it was prior to any min-maxing.. (But why should I even need to min-max anyway?) [I'll talk more about this later on]

I'd like to add that I don't mind the sentinel weapons being in the pools of possible weapons, because my Shade is now using the Vulklok with terrifying efficency, easily 1hitting groups of enemies that stand too close together and get hit with his 87% chance to crit for x8 times his 500 electric damage, and I've only had to forma the vulklok once to fit the riven, otherwise it's only catalysed. That's lovely, I don't mind that at all. Though I'm pretty sure, based on how you guys nerfed it when it first came out that you probably don't want the Vulklok to be capable of doing that kind of damage.. But people who cant put their laser rifle rivens on their laser rifle primes are in a bit of a tight spot.

As for the weapon randomisation itself, I don't think it makes much sense..

On one hand, the people who want to riven their soma prime are going to riven their soma prime regardless of whether you put the wall of RNG in their way or not. I actually think it hurts people who want to riven things that aren't meta more than it helps them, because all the non meta rivens get thrown away and ignored in favor of the meta rivens the wider community wants. Don't get me wrong, -I agree that if you 'let' people choose, you will end up with far more soma and tonkor rivens than anything else, but this is because people like those weapons, as those weapons are strong. Besides, if you plan to reballance the mods as you go, (which I think is a great idea compared to leaving them as they currently are) - then why does this even matter? The people who riven somas and tonkors will have their mods seriously reduced in value and, if you do a good enough job, will probably result to using their previous builds if they want to keep using those weapons, and thus, people would stop 'rivening' those weapons, -instead, focus would be drawn to finding out how to get the most gain out of rivens, and which weapons are good thanks to them, with this mindset, it would be more reasonable to let people pick and choose so that they can experiment on their own terms, otherwise you'll have the opposite issue of what you have now, where people will get salty when they receive rivens for tonkors and somas just by random chance, because those will be considered the useless rivens. Let people mod their weapons as they wish too, Especially if you are planning to change the balance of the mods. Let people adapt by choice.

Onto the stats themselves.. -Can we ditch the "%" buffs? As mentioned briefly earlier, a weapon that crits from the get go is just going to get stronger, but a weapon that doesn't wont get any benefit. LITERALLY THE ONLY THING THAT CAN COME OUT OF THE %CRIT BUFF IS A WIDENING OF THE POWER GAP. *Ahem* Instead, I strongly recommend +BaseCrit%, or even better +BaseStatus%. Imagine a world where getting a riven for a weapon that didn't crit, could make that weapon actually capable of critting? Does that sound more or less broken than the current system? Personally, I'd love being able to make crit heavy weapons have status and status heavy weapons have crit, it would also allow you to make weapons that try to do both better optimized (probably for crit, most of the time, because the playerbase wants damage, you might have noticed, Because that makes weapons 'useable' and 'useable' is 'better' [Or stronger because stronger is better if it's already good].) [but even if everyone did just work for crit mods, they'd have the option to try +Base Status instead, and +Base Status wouldn't be useless.] And, as with the previous paragraph, this doesn't even matter if you plan to balance the rivens anyway, because you would tone down the crit gain potential for a dread because it's meta; Though even then I wonder why you would bother, it's already easily capable of hitting red..

I dont get the whole Min-Maxing arguement, there is no reason to have multible values for the same stat in the first place. I understand the idea of saying 'people who want to min-max can just op out' but this WONT stop some people from min-maxing or getting lucky and having stupidly overpowered mods, and it definitely WILL stop many people from enjoying this system's possible stats that it can give you. If I know that I can get +100% damage, and I get +78%, the only logical choice is to reroll, it's the same issue as before, there is no value in playing with an 'objectively worse' mod. I wont enjoy using a lower damage variant of the same weapon if there is more to be had. Just make them flat buffs in the pool. If you get +damage (which I dont think should exist on it's own in the first place) [it should have a counterpart like -fire rate] <cant be -crit because that would only harm crit weapons.> [actually fire rate doesn't work either in all cases due to bows or snipers, but those cases would only be smart players optimising the value of those stat gains, it would still be more balanced than giving both a Tonkor and a Tiberon +100% damage, and it would definitely be more 'interesting'] <the way I see it, you can kill off 'required mods' in a single fowl swoop just by connecting all the required mods to drawbacks. And giving alternative mods with different drawbacks and gains.> -Anyway, point is, If you get +damage, It should be a fixed value, that's more fair and doesn't over-complicate things. You'll never have the issue of min-maxing in the first place.

If you are going to keep ammo related stuff in the pool could it atleast be interesting? Like, +500% mag size, and + 200% fire rate, but at the cost of -50% damage? - I WANT TO SEE A LEX MACHINE PISTOL, THAT WOULD BE SOOO COOL. Obviously, any of these elements on their own would probably break a weapon good or bad though.. (actually, now that I think about it, you cant do this because '-50% damage' wont stop the lex from critting.. The damage gain from the fire-rate will be way higher than the loss of 50% would be when I originally brainstormed it as a possible offset.. yeah, I don't really like this games 'crit' system anyway, could we remove artificial damage from 3.0 and make it more status heavy?) Please remove multi-shot from the pool. It's bad in general. If it's minus it utterly destroys a weapon, if it's plus, it breaks it. only nice part about it would be that more multi-shot = more status chance. (+BaseStatus% is a cleaner fix) But we definitely don't need the damage that comes with multi-shot. -anyway I'm sidetracking again.

The 15 riven cap doesn't make much sense to me, it doesn't enforce creativity in my mind, it restricts choice.. I'd rather be able to riven ALL my non meta weapons than only pick the 'realistic' choices. And a person who wants to riven meta things will feel the need to prioritise the most meta rivens (Whether you ballance them or not).. As some people have said, I think the most logical assumption is that you'll sell us more slots for plat, I'm hoping that isn't the case though. If it isn't, I'd recommend you delete the limit completely. I've already had to think about the 4 rivens I'll have 'left over' from rivening all my primaries.

Many people are suggesting that you make special effects for individual weapons but I feel that would take ages and be really hard.
(And if you were going to look at each weapon individually, I figure it would be better to just rebalance them instead.)

And the last thing I'll agree with is people bringing up damage 3.0. I don't understand people saying this will make the new system harder, unless they mean, for players who are used to using their metagear to utterly destroy all of the games content prior to walking into the room said content is in and meeting it face to face. From where I stand I assumed that Damage 3.0 would be a complete ground up rework of the current damage system, and I bloody look forward too it. As such, I don't really care how damage 2.0 'dies.' But for balancing the current state of things I definitely support the idea of nerfing the metarivens and buffing the nonmetarivens, my only fear is that some weapons will get 'confused' as to where they are in that, -what I assume to be- metaphorical list.

Wise but cryptic statements such as: "Not all equivalent DPS is equivalent." and "Not all weapons are meta for the same reasons." come to mind.

I've had a good ramble and I hope some of the stuff I've said could be useful.

I do appreciate the idea that this games community can have an impact on development and can help to make this game better. I also believe that requires you guys at DE listening to us, But I like to think that you do, sometimes. :3 Regardless, All the best with this system moving forward, to happy developers and players alike.

Right, now to go watch Brozime's Vids on this whole topic. xD

Edited November 16, 2016 by EN4TUN3
I'm bad at typing and writing.

[mythicsful]

Can't wait for my semi-decent riven tonkor mod to be useless. Aaaaand back to not using those mods.

[PyroElleh]

15 minutes ago, EN4TUN3 said:

Onto the stats themselves.. -Can we ditch the "%" buffs? As mentioned briefly earlier, a weapon that crits from the get go is just going to get stronger, but a weapon that doesn't wont get any benefit. LITERALLY THE ONLY THING THAT CAN COME OUT OF THE %CRIT BUFF IS A WIDENING OF THE POWER GAP. *Ahem* Instead, I strongly recommend +BaseCrit%, or even better +BaseStatus%. Imagine a world where getting a riven for a weapon that didn't crit, could make that weapon actually capable of critting? Does that sound more or less broken than the current system? Personally, I'd love being able to make crit heavy weapons have status and status heavy weapons have crit, it would also allow you to make weapons that try to do both better optimized

 

37 minutes ago, Boubonicus said:

At least then it can add something where it wasn't before.  Like opening the option to crit build or status build a weapon that could not do that before. 

This!  This is exactly my line of thinking too.  How cool would it be to take a weapon that normally has 5% or 0%, and get a riven that adds it.  It would let you make a brand-new and totally different build from the standard.  I get a similar experience when bringing an Adarza Kavat on missions - with the +60% (additive) crit buff, I've found myself doing things that normally wouldn't make sense, like putting berserker on a really low crit weapon.  Rivens would need to be toned down (+60% is an awful lot for a mod that you apply to a weapon.  A kavat buff is less predictable and reliable in comparison.)

And you are right about additive base damage, Boudonicus.  It'd be much much harder to balance that.  In that case, percentage makes more sense.

[Virsalus]

Maiming Strike comes to mind as well. It helps melee weapons with low crit chance to actually work in ways normally not possible, especially when combined with Berserker.

Too bad it's one of those mods that are only scarcely available... So much for encouraging more variety, right? @[DE]Rebecca

Edited November 16, 2016 by Virsalus