Valkyr Prime design lore discussion

[GX339-4]

1 minute ago, Stoner74 said:

Oh lame. Anyways, thanks. You saved a whole hour of my life. 

I really fear the trailer they are making is not going to answer questions. I hope it's going to explain a lot but... if not, i have no faith in this game anymore. 

Don't leave this game buddy ?

[Stoner]

44 minutes ago, GX339-4 said:

Don't leave this game buddy ?

Ah but it's already done. I'm just waiting to see what the devs are going to do with all this. If they screw up even more, i wont bother reinstalling it.

Wait intensifies

[Dreddeth]

The logical explanation is that, much like literally every other Deluxe skin, whether or not Gersemi is canonical is questionable at best. The explanation most compliant with the Militant Lore Orthodoxy is that Vanilla Valk looking like a twisted and broken version of her Prime is simply an ironic coincidence.

/thread.

[Yrveth]

6 minutes ago, Dreddeth said:

/thread.

Ah but you see, fellow forum user Dreddeth, that's only half of the problem.

[BrazilianJoe]

13 hours ago, (XB1)EternalDrk Mako said:

why does everyone think he is orokin? alad v is simply a corpus scientist [mad/genius?] 

 

If you haven't played the quest - SPOILERS

Spoiler

Alad V and the Grineer Twin Queens are all Orokin which survived the war.

 

[DoppelShifter]

6 hours ago, -TP-BrazilianJoe said:

If you haven't played the quest - SPOILERS

  Reveal hidden contents

Alad V and the Grineer Twin Queens are all Orokin which survived the war.

 

Isn't that based on the fact that [spoiler character] calls every single descendant from "humanity" an Orokin? And because:

Spoiler

If you go to the anti-moa research scan in the sanctuary you'll learn that Corpus were actually basically a flotilla of survivors of the Orokin.

 

So... we debunked this time and again, but the excuse "X is Orokin, thus Y is justified" just doesn't fit the lore. And calling it a coincidence is the laziest cop-out I've ever seen.

Also

 

8 hours ago, Dreddeth said:

The logical explanation is that, much like literally every other Deluxe skin, whether or not Gersemi is canonical is questionable at best.

Nope, DE said that Gersemi was the canon form of Valkyr before the Alad V experiments. They actually said that ever since the concept design phase, before she was even modeled. That was actually the first Deluxe skin to get a space in the canon (with 3 others getting a smaller and vague space in a quest).

Edited November 25, 2016 by DoppelShifter

[CandyDragon]

Braton looks nothing like braton prime.

Pretty sure its just aesthetic choice and you shouldn't obsess over the lore connotations on this. 

[DoppelShifter]

33 minutes ago, Nariala said:

Braton looks nothing like braton prime.

Pretty sure its just aesthetic choice and you shouldn't obsess over the lore connotations on this. 

Uhm... There's actually a very good lore reason for the Braton not looking a lot like Braton Prime.

The Braton is a very cheap knock-off of whatever remained from the Braton infantry rifle design, and supposedly manufactured en-masse by the Corpus for selling around. And indeed it's so cheap that it's the cheapest automatic rifle available (especially if you look at the MK1 version).

And we know the Corpus have the knowledge for streamlining a cheap version of Braton Prime because:

Spoiler

They are what remained of part of the Orokin Empire.

But there's also another explanation: the Braton model is simply... older.

Look at the Burston model. It was relatively recently updated to look not only a lot more like the Burston Prime, but also like a Tenno weapon in general. Previously it had a more "generic" design, Grineer markings and baaaack in Update 7 it was used by Grineer units, before it was replaced by the Baguette.

So... Braton was a terrible example to bring to this table here. And we do "obsess over the lore connotations" because DE confirmed that "Gersemi is the canon form", and the Prime is deliberately inspired by the "Tortured" version (they confirmed this) and that they gave up on making a Gersemi Prime skin (they also confirmed this).

And they admitted that this raises some lore questions (in the last Devstream) and they are working on it. The problem is that it's taking too long, and while it doesn't arrive, lots of people get really pissed.

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

so the rip line on V prime is different for me

it throws multiple rip line cables onto an enemy when pulling

..thats all she got prime animation wise that i can tell 

alf baked prime ..half baked trailer 

disappointing v. v

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

2 hours ago, DoppelShifter said:

Isn't that based on the fact that [spoiler character] calls every single descendant from "humanity" an Orokin? And because:

  Reveal hidden contents

If you go to the anti-moa research scan in the sanctuary you'll learn that Corpus were actually basically a flotilla of survivors of the Orokin.

 

So... we debunked this time and again, but the excuse "X is Orokin, thus Y is justified" just doesn't fit the lore. And calling it a coincidence is the laziest cop-out I've ever seen.

Also

 

Nope, DE said that Gersemi was the canon form of Valkyr before the Alad V experiments. They actually said that ever since the concept design phase, before she was even modeled. That was actually the first Deluxe skin to get a space in the canon (with 3 others getting a smaller and vague space in a quest).

 

8 hours ago, -TP-BrazilianJoe said:

If you haven't played the quest - SPOILERS

  Reveal hidden contents

Alad V and the Grineer Twin Queens are all Orokin which survived the war.

 

exactly why i said they need  to review the anti moa research

l 

 

[(PSN)Lowk721]

Still don't see how this is causing such a fuss. Deluxe skin is how the non-prime first looked. Prime is prime. From there they can make up any reason for why it looks that way.

Edited November 25, 2016 by (PS4)Lowk721

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

Just now, (PS4)Lowk721 said:

Still don't see how this is causing such a fuss. Deluxe skin is how the non-prime first looked. Prime is prime. From there they can make up anything an reason for why it looks that way.

had a concept that the corpus with germesi was trying to retro create the vanila to the prime specs 

[DoppelShifter]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Lowk721 said:

Still don't see how this is causing such a fuss. Deluxe skin is how the non-prime first looked. Prime is prime. From there they can make up anything an reason for why it looks that way.

Ugh...

When will people stop barging into this topic without reading anything of what was discussed? Not even the first post?

- Deluxe was confirmed to be Valkyr's canonical form before the experiments (confirmed by DE)
- Valkyr Prime was designed based on the "tortured" Valkyr instead of Gersemi (also confirmed by DE)
- This opens a lore inconsistency, because if the Prime is the original, it should be closer to the Gersemi than the "tortured" (DE confirmed to be aware of that)

- Given the previous conflict, there needs to be both a Codex Entry (which is not in the game yet) and a narrated trailer by Ballas (which DE said is on the works) to explain the actual lore reason as to why Valkyr Prime looks like the tortured instead of Gersemi (which, again, DE said they were aware and working on it).

Most of this was confirmed or commented on in the last devstream. Some other comments were made in DE staff twitter accounts, or in other moments.

So no, it's not a simple "they can come up with anything, stop fussing over nothing".

In the last Devstream, DE_Steve himself said this would be a lore conflict, and the design team said they were working on it.

The issue is: there's still no answer yet.

[AcceI]

20 minutes ago, (PS4)Lowk721 said:

Still don't see how this is causing such a fuss. Deluxe skin is how the non-prime first looked. Prime is prime. From there they can make up any reason for why it looks that way.

I love post like these.  Keeps the ball rolling.

[Dreddeth]

So let me get this straight.

You all are concerned about the connotations of Valkyr Prime's looks with the lore, considering that it's apparently still canon that Gersemi what the non-prime looked like before her torture (which is weird because it would be the only deluxe skin with any ties to canon at all since the Dark Sector skins were retconned, but I digress.). I got that. It is kinda weird as long as Gersemi is still canon, after all.

Some of you seem to have expressed faith that DE will explain this with a Ballas intro, or a lore blurb, or within a devstream, or something. That's a pretty logical assumption to make.

So you're at 37 pages and counting because... it's taking too long? Pardon me, but this is the same company that teased TWW months ago, and Excalibur Umbra even longer ago than that. It'll get here when it gets here, and it's unbecoming to act like a child in the back seat about it.

Edited November 25, 2016 by Dreddeth
Typographical error.

[DoppelShifter]

10 minutes ago, Dreddeth said:

So let me get this straight.

You all are concerned about the connotations of Valkyr Prime's looks with the lore, considering that it's apparently still canon that Gersemi what the non-prime looked like before her torture (which is weird because it would be the only deluxe skin with any ties to canon at all since the Dark Sector skins were retconned, but I digress.). I got that. It is kinda weird, after all.

Some of you seem to have expressed faith that DE will explain this with a Ballas intro, or a lore blurb, or within a devstream, or something. That's a pretty logical assumption to make.

So you're at 37 pages and counting because... it's taking too long? Pardon me, but this is the same company that teased TWW months ago, and Excalibur Umbra even longer ago than that. It'll get here when it gets here, and it's unbecoming to act like a child in the back seat about it.

That's the thing... it's not a matter of "it'll ge there when it gets there". The lore conflicts were acknowledged by DE in the Devstream previous to Valkyr Prime's official launch.

Valkyr Prime was released, but the lore inconsistencies stayed.

And we're getting bits and pieces of information here and there that "DE_Steve confirmed that they thought about a Gersemi Prime skin, but in the end decided against it", or "People in DE confirmed they are working on Ballas trailer for Valkyr".

The wonky thing here is the order. Firstly, the only time we got a lore-breach like this was back in Nova Prime, and yet it all got sorted out. Plus, it was pre Second Dream so we didn't get all those glorified trailers full of lore for each release.

But now? Now each Prime warframe is getting a lore trailer narrated by Ballas, and this trailer is usually released either before the Prime Access, or around the same day. And that's for Frames that have consistent lores (Saryn, Vauban, Nekros...).

But Valkyr? From the get go, first time Valkyr Prime was previewed, it was confirmed by DE that there would be lore inconsistencies to be addressed (DE_Steve mentions this in a Devstream), but the rest of the team said "they were working on it".

So where are we now? We have the first Prime with such a bit lore inconsistency, and yet her lore trailer is the first to get such a big delay. Not to mention her Codex entry.

So... we're not the kids crying at the backseat. We're the people on the passenger seat looking at the road and going "....Hey, shouldn't we have like... taken the last road to the left? Where are you taking us?" 


And digressing a bit about your comment about the only Deluxe skin to have lore:

Spoiler

Deluxe skins for Loki, Saryn and Oberon are also canon. They appear during the Silver Grove quest.

 

Edited November 25, 2016 by DoppelShifter

[DoppelShifter]

Codex Entry for Valkyr Prime added.

...No lore in either Valkyr entry, even though the text for each one is slightly different.

Edited November 25, 2016 by DoppelShifter

[(PSN)Lowk721]

2 hours ago, DoppelShifter said:

Ugh...

When will people stop barging into this topic without reading anything of what was discussed? Not even the first post?

- Deluxe was confirmed to be Valkyr's canonical form before the experiments (confirmed by DE)
- Valkyr Prime was designed based on the "tortured" Valkyr instead of Gersemi (also confirmed by DE)
- This opens a lore inconsistency, because if the Prime is the original, it should be closer to the Gersemi than the "tortured" (DE confirmed to be aware of that)

- Given the previous conflict, there needs to be both a Codex Entry (which is not in the game yet) and a narrated trailer by Ballas (which DE said is on the works) to explain the actual lore reason as to why Valkyr Prime looks like the tortured instead of Gersemi (which, again, DE said they were aware and working on it).

Most of this was confirmed or commented on in the last devstream. Some other comments were made in DE staff twitter accounts, or in other moments.

So no, it's not a simple "they can come up with anything, stop fussing over nothing".

In the last Devstream, DE_Steve himself said this would be a lore conflict, and the design team said they were working on it.

The issue is: there's still no answer yet.

-Did they say it specifically the canonical form of Valkyr prime? If not then they accidently left themselves some lore wriggle room.

-Designed in lore or by artist? The former would be a difficult to explain away. The latter, less so.

-Again, simple fix if they didn't mention prime in the description. Frames have multiple versions already. All they really had to do was clarify the deluxe skin was referring to the lesser non-prime version. It wouldn't even count as a retcon just simple wording change.

 

I didn't say stop fussing. Everyone's free to fuss all they want. Still don't see why for such a simple issue.

[DoppelShifter]

20 minutes ago, (PS4)Lowk721 said:

-Did they say it specifically the canonical form of Valkyr prime? If not then they accidently left themselves some lore wriggle room.

-Designed in lore or by artist? The former would be a difficult to explain away. The latter, less so.

-Again, simple fix if they didn't mention prime in the description. Frames have multiple versions already. All they really had to do was clarify the deluxe skin was referring to the lesser non-prime version. It wouldn't even count as a retcon just simple wording change.

 

I didn't say stop fussing. Everyone's free to fuss all they want. Still don't see why for such a simple issue.

That's the thing, they mentioned that Gersemi was the canonical form of "Valkyr", and that her form before the experiments was that one (which implies that all further modifications were a result of Alad V fiddling with her).

But then comes the Prime, which followed the aesthetic of the "mangled" Valkyr, without tail, without winglets, with gilded details on her leg where the "vanilla" Valkyr has attachments made by Alad V, her armor is ripped open (specially in the back) and she has gauntlets (though these ones being more "cerimonial/utility" than actual restrains).

Rebecca commented in the devstream that the visual inspiration for Valkyr Prime was the vanilla Valkyr instead of Gersemi. DE_Steve immediately afterwards makes a remark about how that will complicate the lore a bit, but then other members of the team mention that "they are working on the lore". 

So the current state is: the previous lore pointed that the "stable" form of Valkyr was Gersemi Valkyr. But the Valkyr Prime having her design inspired by the "Alad V" Valkyr (mangled during the Zanuka project, as her own Codex page mentions) is a contradiction, since the Primes are the first of their kind (which would kill the existence of Gersemi as a midway between Prime and "mangled" form). Also it makes for a huge time paradox, since those changes were made for the Zanuka project (see Valkyr codex page), and thus they shouldn't be present in the Prime version (specially considering that Gersemi shows that she didn't have those features before the experiment).

The outcry was instantaneous. Numerous threads popped up around the forums (and merged into this one) and the official Facebook page was flooded. DE_Steve mentioned on Twitter that a Gersemi Prime skin was considered but eventually dropped. Other members of DE mentioned that a lore trailer narrated by Ballas is still in the works; but those customarily appear pre-launch or during launch, not post-launch. So either they're having a bad time explaining the Lore or... well, there's something they're not telling us.

And this is not by lack of "asking". Prime Time was full of people asking about Valkyr Prime, DE staff is @mentioned a lot in threads, they got PM'd about it, Tweets were thrown around and the result was.... nothing.

And the "silence" is starting to sound even worse than a handwave or an official comment saying "be patient, we're working on it". All we have is... nothing.

Edited November 25, 2016 by DoppelShifter

[VegasPrime]

15 minutes ago, DoppelShifter said:

That's the thing, they mentioned that Gersemi was the canonical form of "Valkyr", and that her form before the experiments was that one (which implies that all further modifications were a result of Alad V fiddling with her).

But then comes the Prime, which followed the aesthetic of the "mangled" Valkyr, without tail, without winglets, with gilded details on her leg where the "vanilla" Valkyr has attachments made by Alad V, her armor is ripped open (specially in the back) and she has gauntlets (though these ones being more "cerimonial/utility" than actual restrains).

Rebecca commented in the devstream that the visual inspiration for Valkyr Prime was the vanilla Valkyr instead of Gersemi. DE_Steve immediately afterwards makes a remark about how that will complicate the lore a bit, but then other members of the team mention that "they are working on the lore". 

So the current state is: the previous lore pointed that the "stable" form of Valkyr was Gersemi Valkyr. But the Valkyr Prime having her design inspired by the "Alad V" Valkyr (mangled during the Zanuka project, as her own Codex page mentions) is a contradiction, since the Primes are the first of their kind (which would kill the existence of Gersemi as a midway between Prime and "mangled" form). Also it makes for a huge time paradox, since those changes were made for the Zanuka project (see Valkyr codex page), and thus they shouldn't be present in the Prime version (specially considering that Gersemi shows that she didn't have those features before the experiment).

The outcry was instantaneous. Numerous threads popped up around the forums (and merged into this one) and the official Facebook page was flooded. DE_Steve mentioned on Twitter that a Gersemi Prime skin was considered but eventually dropped. Other members of DE mentioned that a lore trailer narrated by Ballas is still in the works; but those customarily appear pre-launch or during launch, not post-launch. So either they're having a bad time explaining the Lore or... well, there's something they're not telling us.

And this is not by lack of "asking". Prime Time was full of people asking about Valkyr Prime, DE staff is @mentioned a lot in threads, they got PM'd about it, Tweets were thrown around and the result was.... nothing.

And the "silence" is starting to sound even worse than a handwave or an official comment saying "be patient, we're working on it". All we have is... nothing.

+ we shouldn't forget that she is probably angry in her original version BECAUSE of Alad V torture, and that her Hysteria claws are Corpus Tech.

[DoppelShifter]

9 minutes ago, VegasPrime said:

+ we shouldn't forget that she is probably angry in her original version BECAUSE of Alad V torture, and that her Hysteria claws are Corpus Tech.

For that we have little information to go for. Remember: some warframes were unstable and prone to rage even in their prototype forms (check the Codex entry for Rhino Prime), so a Warframe that's based on channeling rage through controlled powers isn't a far concept.

Also note how both the Codex entry for Valkyr Prime and the description on the gauntlet ribbons suggest that she's "bound by honor" before anything, so we might be facing two different kinds of "origin" for her rage; with Prime (and Gersemi) channeling it from the need to battle and give it all, for honor; and the damaged/vanilla one channeling rage caused by torment and vengeance, which is the one suggested in the launch trailer for vanilla Valkyr.

The two concepts of "rage" can co-exist. What can't is this paradox: Prime was inspired by vanilla, which is a damaged version of Gersemi, but their chronological timeline in-universe is Prime -> Gersemi -> Damaged/Vanilla. This is what doesn't make sense.

Edited November 25, 2016 by DoppelShifter

[Stoner]

9 minutes ago, VegasPrime said:

+ we shouldn't forget that she is probably angry in her original version BECAUSE of Alad V torture, and that her Hysteria claws are Corpus Tech.

Yes, probably. Which is why it makes no sense, but only if her prime was the first. 

[VegasPrime]

5 minutes ago, DoppelShifter said:

For that we have little information to go for. Remember: some warframes were unstable and prone to rage even in their prototype forms (check the Codex entry for Rhino Prime), so a Warframe that's based on channeling rage through controlled powers isn't a far concept.

Also note how both the Codex entry for Valkyr Prime and the description on the gauntlet ribbons suggest that she's "bound by honor" before anything, so we might be facing two different kinds of "origin" for her rage; with Prime (and Gersemi) channeling it from the need to battle and give it all, for honor; and the damaged/vanilla one channeling rage caused by torment and vengeance, which is the one suggested in the launch trailer for vanilla Valkyr.

The two concepts of "rage" can co-exist. What can't is this paradox: Prime was inspired by vanilla, which is a damaged version of Gersemi, but their chronological timeline in-universe is Prime -> Gersemi -> Damaged/Vanilla. This is what doesn't make sense.

yup i agree it doesn't really make sense!

 

2 minutes ago, Stoner74 said:

Yes, probably. Which is why it makes no sense, but only if her prime was the first. 

and I don't see why prime wouldn't be the first, I mean it's orokin construct, so it's definitely twisted

[DoppelShifter]

So, the summary of what he have right now:

Release timeline:

Valkyr (let's call this one Vanilla) -> Gersemi -> Valkyr Prime

In-universe suggested timeline:

Valkyr Prime (the first of her kind) -> Gersemi (the form before the experiments, as confirmed by DE) -> Vanilla (mangled during the Zanuka project, as confirmed in her Codex page).


Design variations (here's where the confusion begins):

- Vanilla Valkyr inspired Gersemi (which had complete armor plates, winglets, a whole and symmetrical helmet and a tail coming from the same place where the Vanilla only has exposed sockets in the end of her spine). This is confirmed by DE both in the in-game market and during the Devstreams where they presented the Gersemi concepts and preliminary models.

- Vanilla Valkyr ALSO inspired Valkyr Prime (which retains her stripped armor, exposed spine with shredded armor plates, no tail, gilded stripes in the same spots where Vanilla has attached "conduits" of sorts, and gauntlets). This is confirmed by DE_Rebecca during the Devstream 83.

- Gersemi inspired... None. Some argue that she was used as inspiration for Prime, too, but that's not confirmed by any comment by DE.

Statements by DE:

- Valkyr Prime was inspired by Vanilla Valkyr instead of Gersemi (DE_Rebecca and DE_Geoff, Devstream 83)
- This raised some lore challenges (DE_Steve and DE_Geoff, Devstream 83)
- They're still working on the lore (DE_Sheldon, Devstream 83)
- Gersemi Prime skin was considered, but the idea was dropped (DE_Steve, Twitter)
- DE is working on a longer trailer narrated by Ballas, just like the other recent primes (mentioned in this thread)

And now we're still waiting for the answers, trailer and the rest.
 

Edited November 25, 2016 by DoppelShifter

[Stoner]

7 minutes ago, VegasPrime said:

and I don't see why prime wouldn't be the first, I mean it's orokin construct, so it's definitely twisted

Well i mean, DE could come up with Alad V made Valkyr prime to fix the lore issue. But... that's the easy fix, imo. 

Also, almost 1k posts and 18k views in here, how is this not megathread? @[DE]Danielle @[DE]Taylor