The Ash rework I would've done [please take a look]

[XaelathRavenstorm]

With the big change coming to bladestorm the goal is for them to make the frame more active rather than just spamming 4 all the time.

IMO people will still spam 4 since there's not much synergy on the other abilities. He will still remain a Caster "spam this button" frame. To make a successful frame it has to be active. Abilities must have synergy. With that I'll introduce you to my version of Ash rework.
 

• 1st Ability - Shuriken

The skill it self is fine but I'll change the augment to make enemies more vulnerable to slash proc(any slash proc from any source is increased(can do power strength scaling or not) instead of removing armor which doesn't synergize w/ Ash's slash/finisher damage kit. More synergy to come with other abilities.

• 3rd Ability - Teleport

Remove the enemies open to finisher mechanic and made it into a free teleport ability you can target anywhere. Adjust range to be slightly lower since you can target the ability anywhere now. Transferred the open finisher mechanic on the 2nd ability Smoke Bomb. You'll see the synergy soon.

• 2nd Ability - Smoke Bomb

Now a targetable ability same result if you target on the ground near you or below you you'll still be invisible. But now you can now throw it on enemies and makes them vulnerable for finisher attacks. I'd remove the augment but make the invisibility duration when targeted on teammates cut in half. More synergy to come.

• 4th Ability - Bladestorm

Same as the current Bladestorm but deals significantly lower damage on enemies and only strikes a target once but when enemies are open to finishers Bladestorm deals enormous damage(or deals power str scaling damage + % of enemies max health as damage that scales with power str as well but capping at 75%).

There you have it, you now have an active frame that uses all of its arsenal for true synergy like a true ninja.

TL;DR more mobility, flexible invisibility skill, less spam damage but deals a lot more damage if skills are used in together overall.

You are not stuck on pressing 4 anymore.

If you are confused how the abilities synergy with each other work or on some of the mechanics. I'll explain to you. Scaling and damage can be adjusted of course.
Let me know what you think guys :)

 

Edited November 25, 2016 by XaelathRavenstorm

[(PSN)RNickS_BRASIL]

Looks awesome !!!

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Lame, to be blunt. You have the same problem that DE does. You think Synergy means it requires another skill to be good. That's not what it means at all.

Synergy means skill 1 is good on it's own, and skill 2 is good on its own, but when combined, they are greater than the sum of their parts. DE nukes anything that has actual real synergy (e.g. rage + quick thinking, Mesa + G-Mag, WoL+EV).

Edited November 25, 2016 by (PS4)DesecratedFlame

[XaelathRavenstorm]

18 minutes ago, (PS4)RNickS_BRASIL said:

Looks awesome !!!

thanks man :D
 

[Timberwolf581]

You used to be able to teleport anywhere with line of sight, until they changed it to only teleporting to enemies and friendlies.

[XaelathRavenstorm]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Lame, to be blunt. You have the same problem that DE does. You think Synergy means it requires another skill to be good. That's not what it means at all.

Synergy means skill 1 is good on it's own, and skill 2 is good on its own, but when combined, they are greater than the sum of their parts. DE nukes anything that has actual real synergy (e.g. rage + quick thinking, Mesa + G-Mag, WoL+EV).

nope Synergy is when abilities work together which mine clearly shows

[XaelathRavenstorm]

6 minutes ago, Timberwolf581 said:

You used to be able to teleport anywhere with line of sight, until they changed it to only teleporting to enemies and friendlies.

what really!?!?? I started U10(Nekros), Teleport was still enemy/teammate target only, maybe older update?

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

3 minutes ago, XaelathRavenstorm said:

nope Synergy is when abilities work together which mine clearly shows

SYNERGY

noun

The interaction or cooperation of two or more organizations, substances, or other agents to produce a combined effect greater than the sum of their separate effects.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/us/synergy

[Timberwolf581]

19 minutes ago, XaelathRavenstorm said:

what really!?!?? I started U10(Nekros), Teleport was still enemy/teammate target only, maybe older update?

Yeah. Can't really remember when they changed it though.

Ash's Smoke Screen used to make him actually invisible too. Like, you couldn't even see yourself.

Quote

Update 8.3

• Updated Smoke Screen smoke to use energy color selected by player.
• Smoke Screen will not render Ash completely invisible anymore. Ash will now have a white, ghostly model during cloak (color may also be affected by your energy color).

...It was fun while it lasted.

Edited November 25, 2016 by Timberwolf581

[BBOTAA]

I always wanted bladestorm to change because the concept can be work for something much better, probably other name if it was like I would like it.

But the idea is you would hold 4 to enter the ultimate, you'd have exalted daggers, with a actually good stance with combos that allow you to throw the daggers similar to bladegun weapons and the charged attack would be a ranged attacked that throw daggers.
Also by pressing 4 you could target enemies, spawning a clone on them or teleporting a clone to them,the clone would  attack( with really cool animations obviously ;D) dealing damage and opening said enemy for finishers in case it survived, all the other abilties would be usable during the ultimate.
To exit hold 4 again.

About the changes you suggest I'm cool with them and they would work also with what I suggested.Still in my opinion Ash would be much more spectacular with this ^ 4th ability.

 

[Nazrethim]

26 minutes ago, XaelathRavenstorm said:

nope Synergy is when abilities work together which mine clearly shows

Nope, Synergy does means the abilities do their supposed jobs but have greater effects when combined. For example Rhino can cast Iron Skin to gain ablative armor and CC inmunity, and cast Charge to cover ground and damage enemies in a line, but when you have IronSkin active Charge does blast procs on whoever you hit. THAT is Synergy. Abilities requiring each other isn't. Now on your rework:

48 minutes ago, XaelathRavenstorm said:

With the big change coming to bladestorm the goal is for them to make the frame more active rather than just spamming 4 all the time.

Which they didn't really solve because it's a nerf, not a rework.

48 minutes ago, XaelathRavenstorm said:

 

• 1st Ability - Shuriken

The skill it self is fine but I'll change the augment to make enemies more vulnerable to slash proc(any slash proc from any source is increased can do power strength scaling or not) instead of removing armor which doesn't synergize w/ Ash's slash/finisher damage kit. More synergy to come with other abilities.

Armor removal is way better than buffing Slash procs, changing it to a slash buff would be a nerf unless the buff is around +300% Slash baseline

48 minutes ago, XaelathRavenstorm said:

• 3rd Ability - Teleport

Remove the enemies open to finisher mechanic and made it into a free teleport ability you can target anywhere. Adjust range to be lower since you can target the ability anywhere now. Transferred the open finisher mechanic on the 2nd ability Smoke Bomb. You'll see the synergy soon.

The whole current POINT of teleport is the finisher opener mechanic. Making it free teleport is nice, but it already has low range for a mobility spell, making it shorter would make having both Stretch AND overextended a requirement. It's a nerf to an ability that doesn't need it.

48 minutes ago, XaelathRavenstorm said:

• 2nd Ability - Smoke Bomb

Now a targetable ability same result if you target on the ground near you or below you. You can now throw it on enemies and makes them vulnerable for finisher attacks. I'd remove the augment but make the invisibility duration when targeted on teammates cut in half. More synergy to come.

Making it open enemies to finishers and a target ability is nice, nerfing an augment that few use for no reason isn't.

48 minutes ago, XaelathRavenstorm said:

• 4th Ability - Bladestorm

Same as the current Bladestorm but deals significantly lower damage on enemies and only strikes a target once but when enemies that are open to finisher are attacked you deal significantly higher damage than the current Bladestorm(or deals flat damage + % of enemies max health as damage that scales with power strength capping at 75%).

The problem is that "same bladestorm", that's why DE rework will s*ck, because they didn't want to change that. Also, significantly lower damamge? If it's going to hit only once it needs to do 3 to 5 times the damage per finisher it does now.

48 minutes ago, XaelathRavenstorm said:

There you have it, you now have an active frame that uses all of its arsenal for true synergy like a true ninja.

You didnt' make it more active, you just nerfed everything worse than what DE has in store.

48 minutes ago, XaelathRavenstorm said:

You are not stuck on pressing 4 anymore.

You are now running a no power build because all 4 powers s*ck.

48 minutes ago, XaelathRavenstorm said:

Let me know what you think guys :)

That you need to think things trough. The point of a rework is to solve the issues a warframe has, not nerf or buff them, that's something you didn't get (and DE completely ignored tbh)

[UrielColtan]

This all looks underwhelming if not bad. The free teleport is the best one but only because I suggested similar in the Deluxe skin topic. Shortening the target range defeats the point of targetting though if an untarget telport can basically cover the same general distance. Getting rid of stealth finisher vulnerability is pitiful too, if anything that should be removed, then its the slow and glitchy animation from that. Nerfing Bladestorm even more than what its already getting? Tsk. Damage is Ash's highest feature, you'll make him scale even worse. Be better off making Bladestorm into a completely different ability.

Edited November 25, 2016 by UrielColtan

[XaelathRavenstorm]

49 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Nope, Synergy does means the abilities do their supposed jobs but have greater effects when combined. For example Rhino can cast Iron Skin to gain ablative armor and CC inmunity, and cast Charge to cover ground and damage enemies in a line, but when you have IronSkin active Charge does blast procs on whoever you hit. THAT is Synergy. Abilities requiring each other isn't. Now on your rework:

Which they didn't really solve because it's a nerf, not a rework.

Armor removal is way better than buffing Slash procs, changing it to a slash buff would be a nerf unless the buff is around +300% Slash baseline

The whole current POINT of teleport is the finisher opener mechanic. Making it free teleport is nice, but it already has low range for a mobility spell, making it shorter would make having both Stretch AND overextended a requirement. It's a nerf to an ability that doesn't need it.

Making it open enemies to finishers and a target ability is nice, nerfing an augment that few use for no reason isn't.

The problem is that "same bladestorm", that's why DE rework will s*ck, because they didn't want to change that. Also, significantly lower damamge? If it's going to hit only once it needs to do 3 to 5 times the damage per finisher it does now.

You didnt' make it more active, you just nerfed everything worse than what DE has in store.

You are now running a no power build because all 4 powers s*ck.

That you need to think things trough. The point of a rework is to solve the issues a warframe has, not nerf or buff them, that's something you didn't get (and DE completely ignored tbh)

Teleport for positioning, Shuriken to make enemies more vulnerable(armor remove augment doesn't have a synergy on ash's kit think about it), throw a smoke on some enemies and perform bladestorm on them

how is that not clear?

re read/review the synergy of the abilities and come back to me again.

[XaelathRavenstorm]

47 minutes ago, UrielColtan said:

This all looks underwhelming if not bad. The free teleport is the best one but only because I suggested similar in the Deluxe skin topic. Shortening the target range defeats the point of targetting though if an untarget telport can basically cover the same general distance. Getting rid of stealth finisher vulnerability is pitiful too, if anything that should be removed, then its the slow and glitchy animation from that. Nerfing Bladestorm even more than what its already getting? Tsk. Damage is Ash's highest feature, you'll make him scale even worse. Be better off making Bladestorm into a completely different ability.

"If you are confused on the ability synergy and on some of the mechanics I'll explain to you. Scaling and damage can be adjusted of course."

[Nazrethim]

6 minutes ago, XaelathRavenstorm said:

Teleport for positioning, Shuriken to make enemies more vulnerable(armor remove augment doesn't have a synergy on ash's kit think about it), throw a smoke on some enemies and perform bladestorm on them

Teleport: If it's only ofr positioning it would require A) more range, no less. B) reduced cost (about 5-10 per cast baseline) and C) No casting animation whatsoever. Otherwise it's made pointless by a single mobility mod like Mobilize.

Shuriken: Armor stripping is great team support and a damage buff for anyone not spamming abilities. Remember that abilities don't exist in vacuum, you need to take into account that Fleeting Expertise is an option, not a must have.

Abilities shoudln't require each other to do their jobs. While the Smoke Screen + Blade Storm sounds like a legit combo, your idea is very bad because BS does jacksh+t unless you cast SS first. Synergy means abilities work together, not that they require each other.

6 minutes ago, XaelathRavenstorm said:

how is that not clear?

re read/review the synergy of the abilities and come back to me again.

My point is that you are seeing this rework as how it would work on paper, not in actual combat. You need to think of every possible outcome. How it will behave in actual combat? What possible builds players will use? Will it make all power stats desirable? How it will work in Conclave? Will it feel good, engaging or Fun to use?

This is not the first review of a rework I do, and I've seen VERY detailed and well thought out reworks. Particularly, for Ash I recomend you to read GR13V4NC3's Ash conglormerated rework:

Spoiler

 

 

or my Ash Interactive rework for a more "simplistic" path:

Spoiler

 

 

[XaelathRavenstorm]

10 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Teleport: If it's only ofr positioning it would require A) more range, no less. B) reduced cost (about 5-10 per cast baseline) and C) No casting animation whatsoever. Otherwise it's made pointless by a single mobility mod like Mobilize.

Shuriken: Armor stripping is great team support and a damage buff for anyone not spamming abilities. Remember that abilities don't exist in vacuum, you need to take into account that Fleeting Expertise is an option, not a must have.

Abilities shoudln't require each other to do their jobs. While the Smoke Screen + Blade Storm sounds like a legit combo, your idea is very bad because BS does jacksh+t unless you cast SS first. Synergy means abilities work together, not that they require each other.

My point is that you are seeing this rework as how it would work on paper, not in actual combat. You need to think of every possible outcome. How it will behave in actual combat? What possible builds players will use? Will it make all power stats desirable? How it will work in Conclave? Will it feel good, engaging or Fun to use?

This is not the first review of a rework I do, and I've seen VERY detailed and well thought out reworks. Particularly, for Ash I recomend you to read GR13V4NC3's Ash conglormerated rework:

  Hide contents

 

 

or my Ash Interactive rework for a more "simplistic" path:

  Hide contents

 

 

I'm glad you understand the synergy now. Damage and Scaling is adjustable mate.

I agree on lessening the cost of teleport. Shuriken -Armor augment doesn't do jackS#&$ w/ his kit he's a ninja not a damage buffer support. Thanks for you opinions :)

Edited November 25, 2016 by XaelathRavenstorm

[Shad0wWatcher]

Funny thing is...i made a strawpoll for this a long time ago here on the forums, to let the players decide what they wanted for a bladestorm rework. Funny enough a lot of the players wanted what is presented to us right now. Half of em wanted an exalted wrist blade ability and the rest was kinda divided.

[Voltage]

5 hours ago, XaelathRavenstorm said:

nope Synergy is when abilities work together which mine clearly shows

to be greater than each ability separate, which is what they just said ... Spore is good, Molt is good, but Zenistar + Spore + Molt > Miasma or each ability separate.

[Separius]

Here's my take for his skills:

1. Shuriken are a toggle now that makes you equip throwing stars, that you can use like a Hikou, Despair etc., but it consumes energy instead of ammo, is full auto and the damage it does is affected by power str and mods on your secondary like concealed explosives, still removes armor.

2. Increase duration

3. No changes

4. New - Killing Spree: for x seconds removes the energy cost on his 1 and 3, gives y power strength to his 1, adds the effect of his 3's augment but with finishers happening automatically and with the animation speed increased by Z percentage (more for slower weapons, less for faster ones) and the next target can be queued. New augment increases the damage of "nearby" warframes for the duration of the effect.

Edited November 25, 2016 by Separius

[EmptyDevil]

I don't like these suggestions. Free Teleport would be nice, but not at the removal of the finisher function of the ability, even if it gets moved to Smokescreen.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

Or they could just make it so shurikens open enemies up to finishers which would increase the damage on his blade storm.

smoke screen opening people to finishers would be a bit much.  They could just increase his 4's damage if he's cloaked instead.

and teleporting to an enemy that's been hit with a shuriken could make more damage.

Blade storm could stay as is with my proposed changes.  since more damage would mean quicker kills.  Except i'd make 2 changes.  Melee combo would increase the speed of blade storms animation.  So shorter time in it.  also converting all remaining strikes ash has left when one target is remaining into one super blow would also shorten the time he's in it.  

all these changes would add synergy to his kit.  lessen the time everyone has to deal with blade storm.  and still allow the invulnerability bandaid to be in so he won't bug out.

[BETAOPTICS]

7 hours ago, XaelathRavenstorm said:

I'm glad you understand the synergy now. Damage and Scaling is adjustable mate.

I agree on lessening the cost of teleport. Shuriken -Armor augment doesn't do jackS#&$ w/ his kit he's a ninja not a damage buffer support. Thanks for you opinions :)

Neither is Loki a tank support (Safeguard Switch augment), Atlas being a tourist (Ore Gaze augment) or Valkyr being Tarzan (Swing Line augment). No offense, I do think your suggestion has some valid points but I think you might be a bit too hang up on augments. Initial design should always consider base first, especially considering that the original intention of augments were designed to switch up the way you use that ability in your Warframe.

Take Iron Shrapnel augment for Rhino as an example. Sure it is has synergy already simply because the nature and kit of Rhino is well designed and very adaptable, but this augment changes the way you are encouraged to see the skill. Not so much as protective armor but as defensive recovery measure to first aggro enemies in and then unleash the blast, or just keep blasting with it to do damage.

So it is a useful suggestion to not see augments in vacuum with the kit because they are not simply designed the Warframe alone in mind, even though they also can benefit from those augments.

Considering the re-work, I would try to think a bit about it still. While it is a start and has potential, I am not entirely sure if it would be fun and interesting enough to play around with gameplay design wise. To be entirely charitable and fair to you though, while DE has made it a bit more interesting as a experience, i fear they also do not deliver a good job at Ash. Mainly his kit looks clumsy and unpractical, while not solving some of the fundamental issues that Ash has and why he is rarely picked outside of high level enemy missions like in Sorties. That is to say no team synergy whatsoever, and pretty much only single target abilities (Shuriken hits 2 enemies at most [bring back penetration  please], bladestorm has fixed amount of enemies but you and your clones go at them individually).