Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[TheMightyBaloon]

59 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Flat reductions have exponential gains. Here is a better explanation

In terms of efficiency yes, in terms of cost reduction it is as linear as it goes. Point is you and Azamog are nitpicking the term used and he mostly is nitpicking on the term EFFICIENCY. And people have pointed out in a multiple ways in that threat that it will completely unbalance the frames and majority of the mods needs to be reworked. But that is a discussion for that particular thread.

Again my initial idea was to give ash MULTI-TARGETING . Hence making it easier to use his current blade storm, with an added suggestion that maybe, maybe it gets a cost increase on marking to make it less spammable. Which again you took out of context.

[TheMightyBaloon]

40 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

huh pretty sure i read that at some point way back when the rework released.... the riven i consider a mandatory tho. A riven with a good disposition and 2+1- split gives you up to additional 90% attack speed... pair that with primed fury (55%)and arcane strike (20%) and you're at a speed boost of 165%, there's also the possibility to add other mods (channeling etc) to get nearly 200%.. that's 3 times as fast. Exactly how fast it was with 2 clones...take the extra marks and the..getting stuck thing into consideration and it can actually be a lot faster now.

only real difference to his old peak is that you can't spend days doing nothing but spamming it, what was the whole point of the rework, that it's issues got fixed, that combo got a massive boost with body count ever since, what gives it the multiple damage compared to back then and that range got removed off of blade storm fit builds, what actually works in his favor and easily gives room to make up for the extra energy cost plus more.

hell call me crazy but i even prefer the middle ground between melee and BS over p4tw gameplay wise...

Not trying to troll at all. I'm pointing out just how many things work in its favor that simply didn't exist pre rework and that Naz, among many others, is perfectly aware of that but chooses to ignore it and belittles its potential for the sake of his own Agenda. (for reference, check out his rework threat. That one goes back to when DE announced the ash rework.)

Yeah man, a weapon with a good disposition and a nice attack speed riven works fine, which is not what we are arguing about. It is the fact that you have to mouse over each target to target them, resulting i jerking your mouse around to multiple target enemies. Hence why I suggested give him a mesa like ridicule to multi target.

[Nazrethim]

43 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

huh pretty sure i read that at some point way back when the rework released.... the riven i consider a mandatory tho. A riven with a good disposition and 2+1- split gives you up to additional 90% attack speed... pair that with primed fury (55%)and arcane strike (20%) and you're at a speed boost of 165%, there's also the possibility to add other mods (channeling etc) to get nearly 200%.. that's 3 times as fast. Exactly how fast it was with 2 clones...take the extra marks and the..getting stuck thing into consideration and it can actually be a lot faster now.

#BuildDiversity

 

Also, look at all the stuff required just to make the thing as fast to execute as before.

43 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

only real difference to his old peak is that you can't spend days doing nothing but spamming it, what was the whole point of the rework, that it's issues got fixed, that combo got a massive boost with body count ever since

Exactly what issue apart from "spam" got fixed?

Also, Body Count worked on BS pre-revisit. Actually, it was better, because BC's value was affected by Rising Storm. Revisit removed that interaction for... reasons, likely that the whole point of the revisit was "nerf ash into the ground while looking good and fooling players into thinking the frame got better"

43 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Not trying to troll at all. I'm pointing out just how many things work in its favor that simply didn't exist pre rework and that Naz, among many others, is perfectly aware of that but chooses to ignore it and belittles its potential for the sake of his own Agenda. (for reference, check out his rework threat. That one goes back to when DE announced the ash rework.)

I don't ignore them, I point out that super specific builds shouldn't be required for stuff to work. Builds should make them work better, not be required for it to even be remotely usable.

For reference, my initial reworks were very bad, they were really awful, and I mean sh*t. Very impractical to use and to code and didn't really solve most of the problems the frame did have.

The "Stance and other stuff that actually solves everything, is easy to implement and balance" didn't came until six freakin months after the revisit, and has gone trough many revisions to ensure it isn't clunky sh*t (you know, like most rework ideas, including my initial ones or the mess DE did with Ash that requires freakin Rivens and broken stats to be good for something?). I'm a perfectionist at heart and balance freak.

[TheOnlyWarBear]

If I may ask a question(s)...

 

Many of the reworks that have come out over the last few frames involved synergy with powers...

 

If memory serves me correctly, the only synergy we have is less energy per mark if you just used smoke screen correct? Sooooo.... what about the other abilities and their synergy?

 

Why does shuriken only fire two projectiles instead of three?

 

Why can I teleport anywhere I point in PvP but not PvE?

 

Why doesn't smoke screen open up enemies to finishers?

 

Why does using ash's BS require more energy than a energy efficient, mash-button-happy Booben?

 

Why, why, why, why, WHY...???????

 

Seriously, anybody who pays attention to this thread anymore needs to bombard questions like this to incite a change or even spark a conversation on the next applicable Devstream. I say refrain for now, as this next one is obviously about Plains....

 

But still, guys, what does it take lol

 

 

 

 

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

7 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

#BuildDiversity

 

 

excuse me, what build did you use again? Didn't you have like 3 different loadouts for 3 perfectly fine builds?

#BuildDiversity indeed.

[Nazrethim]

2 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

excuse me, what build did you use again? Didn't you have like 3 different loadouts for 3 perfectly fine builds?

#BuildDiversity indeed.

Actually I have 4 different builds, but only ONE of hem allows BS to be used at all. For the others the ability is too damn slow and expensive to be worth using. Which is what I've been pointing out: The BuildDiversity problem isn't on Ash's 3 abilities. Is on the 4th.

Edited September 15, 2017 by Nazrethim

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

Actually I have 4 different builds, but only ONE of hem allows BS to be used at all. For the others the ability is too damn slow and expensive to be worth using. Which is what I've been pointing out: The BuildDiversity problem isn't on Ash's 3 abilities. Is on the 4th.

oh? i have like 2-3 on mine that allow his  BS due to how heavy it profits from other factors except for his efficiency (what's but 2 slots which affect all of his abilitys) and are you trying to imply that abilitys are supposed to be spammable on literally any frame, on any build?

Try spamming oberons reckoning on your 3/4 builds, saryns miasama, even banshees quake or mesas peacemaker ...

 

everything working as intendet there.

Build diversity usually rather refers to frames beein able to effectively use more then one build at all, which is definitly the case here... Doesn't his more popular meta include CL and spamming teleport? He can dbuff armor and go gun, play for invisibility or go melee on a mixed build for the best results in BS.

That is a lot of diversity right there, wouldn't you say?

[Nazrethim]

4 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

oh? i have like 2-3 on mine that allow his  BS due to how heavy it profits from other factors except for his efficiency (what's but 2 slots which affect all of his abilitys) and are you trying to imply that abilitys are supposed to be spammable on literally any frame, on any build?

Try spamming oberons reckoning on your 3/4 builds, saryns miasama, even banshees quake or mesas peacemaker ...

I didn't say "spammable". I said "usable". I didn't spam BS before, and in no hell I want that sh*t to be allowed again. And you know that.

4 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

everything working as intendet there.

Yeah, old BS also worked as intended, yet people considered it broken, and so on for many other abilities. So this is kind of pointless to say.

4 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Build diversity usually rather refers to frames beein able to effectively use more then one build at all, which is definitly the case here... Doesn't his more popular meta include CL and spamming teleport? He can dbuff armor and go gun, play for invisibility or go melee on a mixed build for the best results in BS.

That is a lot of diversity right there, wouldn't you say?

Except that all of Ash's first 3 abilities are usable regardless of build. Even a negative duration SS works as the "Ash mad bomber" build (chaining no duration SSs just to stagger enemies). Yet BS doesn't work outside of ONE build: Max Efficiency.

I'm not calling into question Ash's overall build diversity. I'm calling out how BS doesn't outside of a specific set.up (which includes specific Rivens and arcanes for crying out loud!). And Melee weapons outperform BS in almost every situation (the only one being attacking specific bosses as you pointed out, kudos to you),

BS is broken on the weaker side, and by "weak" I don't mean "damage" alone, but rather the relation of Cost (too frikin high), Effect (damage, the only good aspect of it), Time (it takes long arse time to do stuff) and Function (it overlaps with TP)

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

51 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Yet BS doesn't work outside of ONE build: Max Efficiency.

I'm not calling into question Ash's overall build diversity. I'm calling out how BS doesn't outside of a specific set.up (which includes specific Rivens and arcanes for crying out loud!).

Nah? You could add primed flow to your build and go rage-tanking for energy or include trin to your squads like it's a mandatory for so many other frames. His prime got decent enough stats for that and his SB can serve as cover like it's hysteria for valk or even shock for volt on those playstyles.

It's just that efficiency or some kinda energz gain is highly recomendet if you're planning to use a frames ult more then ocassionally. That's a iron rule for any frame, not just ash. You asking to except him? Is that it?

 

And specific stats/mods work best for specific abilitys, that's a shocker am i right? You gonna complain about how BS's top builds DO NOT occupy frame slots?... Are you aware that this is the case for exalted abilitys too? With the difference that those setups essencially ruin your weapon builds while the current need does not.

Keep that in mind while you comment on your rework thread.

 

 

Edited September 15, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Nazrethim]

18 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Nah? You could add primed flow to your build and go rage-tanking for energy or include trin to your squads like it's a mandatory for so many other frames. His prime got decent enough stats for that and his SB can serve as cover like it's hysteria for valk or even shock for volt on those playstyles.

I do run with Rage tanking and PFlow actually. And when sh*T hits the fan, BS is not gonna save you, mostly doom you. SS is where the money is in almost every single situation and TP sometimes.

18 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

It's just that efficiency or some kinda energz gain is highly recomendet if you're planning to use a frames ult more then ocassionally. That's a iron rule for any frame, not just ash. You asking to except him? Is that it?

Not really. As I mentioned earlier (like.. pretty much every 3 pages on this thread) spam isn't what I seek, rather having an Ult you can actually access to kick ars when stakes are dire, something old BS excelled at but current one can't because of the combination of slow setup, slow execution and excesive cost.

18 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

And specific stats/mods work best for specific abilitys, that's a shocker am i right? You gonna complain about how BS's top builds DO NOT occupy frame slots?... Are you aware that this is the case for exalted abilitys too? With the difference that those setups essencially ruin your weapon builds while the current need does not.

Keep that in mind while you comment on your rework thread.

I'm not calling into question that some builds are better for specific abilities either. I'm calling out that BS doesn't frickin work outside of super specific builds designed to counter its sh*t design and excesive cost

Stat/Mod setups are supposed to make already functioning powers work better, not make useless abilities work in the first place. There's a big difference there, which you are apparently unable to see.

In fact my rework idea works with any build. I accounted for as much as I could when writting it.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

3 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

I do run with Rage tanking and PFlow actually. And when sh*T hits the fan, BS is not gonna save you, mostly doom you. SS is where the money is in almost every single situation and TP sometimes.

Not really. As I mentioned earlier (like.. pretty much every 3 pages on this thread) spam isn't what I seek, rather having an Ult you can actually access to kick ars when stakes are dire, something old BS excelled at but current one can't because of the combination of slow setup, slow execution and excesive cost.

I'm not calling into question that some builds are better for specific abilities either. I'm calling out that BS doesn't frickin work outside of super specific builds designed to counter its sh*t design and excesive cost

Stat/Mod setups are supposed to make already functioning powers work better, not make useless abilities work in the first place. There's a big difference there, which you are apparently unable to see.

In fact my rework idea works with any build. I accounted for as much as I could when writting it.

Confirmed all focus passives are gone. 

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

14 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

I do run with Rage tanking and PFlow actually. And when sh*T hits the fan, BS is not gonna save you,

I'm not calling into question that some builds are better for specific abilities either. I'm calling out that BS doesn't frickin work outside of super specific builds designed to counter its sh*t design and excesive cost

 

Hm let me think this situation trough..

You gain energy and possibly heal yourself up, what gives you the possibility to mark enemys infinitly due to its design. You idealy build up combo doing so and unleash it.

Everything is dead.

How is a cleared map not saving your a*s? Death IS the strongest form of Cc after all.

Shouldn't you be the last person to complain, running a sort of ideal for it? How are you having issues exactly?

 

And no. Absolutely no classical ultimate "works by itself", they're all last resort tools or overpriced damage. That's a core problem by itself but still what the devs choose it to be. If that's somethig that's bothering you this much then you're probably playing the wrong game.

Edited September 16, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[rasunin]

just gonna throw it out to the floor and see what others think about it:

1) Death's Sense (Predator Mode)
SUGGESTION:  Upon activation, all enemies within a certain range around Ash will be highlighted with a Red Outline ONLY (no death mark). All enemies will be highlighted without the need to be seen. So if there is an enemy behind Ash, it will be highlighted. This also grants Ash the ability to see Red Outlines through walls. You know how we can see allies through walls already right? yea...this time...lets do it to the enemies too. Consumes 1 Energy/enemy outline and returns 1 Energy/outlined enemy killed. When an enemy leaves Death's Sense range, they will remained highlighted for 5 seconds.

This allows players to instantly see enemies around them and manually pick them off. tired of looking where enemies are when there are so many and so much firing around. Being an assassin is also all about knowing your surroundings well so that one can sneak around and perform more STEALTH MANEUVERS! Death's Sense also allows for better choices in Teleporting. Because the enemies are outline and you will be able to see better and pick easily. Death's Sense allows you to know when to use SmokeScreen! i mean, do i only have to consider using it after alerting enemies like more than 75% of the time? Or do i spam-use it all the time to avoid alerting at all? i would like to move fast too without the need to always stop and observe the area for enemies while moving. so activating Death's Sense will further help and boost the use of those 2 abilities with better efficiency, making for a more effective playstyle.

2) Death's Mark (When Targeting Enemy near aiming reticle)
SUGGESTION: With current mechanics, when an enemy is marked, increases critical hit chance on marked enemy.1/2/3 Mark = + 17%/44%/98%. works for both melee and range weapons.

taking too long to kill 1 enemy and after 2secs, applies 3 Death Marks that costs 30/45 Energy (base cost) with no benefits whatsoever. WOW! What a RIPOFF! This allows users to quickly (but manually) pick off enemies that are taking too long to kill. Also, this further allows players to kill off easier enemies vs stronger ones. Do you want to manually kill an enemy or let bladestorm do it for you? Obviously, you wanna manually kill off the easy ones and let bladestorm take care of the stronger enemies. Thus, allowing players to effectively make much better use of Ash's abilities for said enemies. But with current Bladestorm mechanics, you can't choose who to mark with ease and speed, and its difficult to do so with lots of enemies, especially if there's a strong one among the weaker ones.

Also, Death Marking has a very bad trade-off when facing extremely high level meaty enemies: you are not able to Un-Mark until you have killed the enemy. What does this mean? it means lots of energy were wasted for marking + you can't use other Ash's abilities BECOS not enough energy + you are now forced to use bladestorm on them. What is this??? So i think its only fair there is some additional benefit for death-marking. not just marking for the sake of unleashing bladestorm. if energy was spent after executing bladestorm (and not before), then at least you can still use your other 3 abilities. its kind of self lockdowning Ash in a deathtrap (no energy to spent on Smokescreen or Teleport). i doubt this is the final version of Bladestorm. Without using any Mods to reduce Energy Costs, using Bladestorm is an extremely bad idea.

Conclusion
it's kind of like bringing back some of the old mechanics from the old bladestorm and merging it with the current and adding a few new ones. With the above 2 suggestions, it requires players to skillfully play Ash as a real assassin, make decisive movements and decisively take down from enemy to enemy. knowing your enemies (weak or strong) and their positions is crucial to Ash's gameplay. Whether its escaping, running, avoiding being surrounded, engaging with certain enemies, taking out a strong enemy, etc. it doesn't make other abilities more powerful at all BUT it eases their usage and increases gameplay's efficiency.

So is it good? bad?

Edited September 16, 2017 by rasunin

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

@Nazrethim So I just read that because of how Ashes 4 works, the marking mechanisms and the range at which u can mark enemies and then using it in PoE that it could cause computers to crash?! 

Any validity to this? @[DE]Saske

Edited September 17, 2017 by (XB1)FCastle74

[Nazrethim]

27 minutes ago, (Xbox One)FCastle74 said:

@Nazrethim So I just read that because of how Ashes 4 works, the marking mechanisms and the range at which u can mark enemies and then using it in PoE that it could cause computers to crash?!

Unlikely as BS has a determined range (50m, don't know if it's affected by Range though). So no, it's very unlikely it will cause any problem in that regard. Remeber that Teleport has 60m range.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

4 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Unlikely as BS has a determined range (50m, don't know if it's affected by Range though). So no, it's very unlikely it will cause any problem in that regard. Remeber that Teleport has 60m range.

But the amount of enemies? And how inaccurate marking can be...u could end up triggering another quest by killing another enemy u didn't intend to? 

Marking everything from fish to birds?! Unintended. 

Edited September 17, 2017 by (XB1)FCastle74

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

8 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Unlikely as BS has a determined range (50m, don't know if it's affected by Range though). So no, it's very unlikely it will cause any problem in that regard. Remeber that Teleport has 60m range.

Also I can confirm BS is affected by power range

From WF Wiki

°Target acquisition range is affected by Ability Range. 

[Nazrethim]

Just now, (Xbox One)FCastle74 said:

Also I can confirm BS is affected by power range

From WF Wiki

°Target acquisition range is affected by Ability Range. 

Yeah, just chekced out. 125m maxed. That won't cause trouble in PoE. At most it will cause small pockets of enemies to despawn from your initial position and spawn right where BS teleported you to.

A funny thing here: It tells how well designed the ability is that DE rendered one stat (Range) nigh useless by making the ability have a lot of it by default, while making another (more broken) stat flat out mandatory because the ability can't properly function without it.

Edited September 17, 2017 by Nazrethim

[TheOnlyWarBear]

Can I make an honest proposition to anyone who still reads this forum?

 

Can we all on the next available ask in the devestream post about bringing SOME SORT OF CHANGE to Ash? ANYTHING seriously! We really need to rally now and get some head way on some change.

[(PSN)ACiDiC_SiNz]

Can anyone please share their latest Ash builds?

 

[Nazrethim]

1 hour ago, (PS4)ACiDiC_SiNz said:

Can anyone please share their latest Ash builds?

 

The one I use most is:

Steel Charge (aura), Handspring (Exilus)

Rage, Armored Agility (Quick Thinking for lvl 100 Sortie or if the modifier is bs), Enemy Sense (insert whatever mod you want here if you want), Steel Fiber (or Redirection if I don't intend to take damage and avoid direct combat)

Rending Turn (or Primed Continuity, depending on mission, duration for stealth and RT for direct combat), Augment (usually Fatal Teleport, Smoke Shadow on some sorties and Seeking Shuriken for Boss sorties), Primed Flow, Vitality.

 

It's an all purpose build that works for pretty much anything. Only downside is that you literally cannot use 4 because of it's stupid cost, not even Rage provides enough energy to make that thing worth using.

[(PSN)ACiDiC_SiNz]

12 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

The one I use most is:

Steel Charge (aura), Handspring (Exilus)

Rage, Armored Agility (Quick Thinking for lvl 100 Sortie or if the modifier is bs), Enemy Sense (insert whatever mod you want here if you want), Steel Fiber (or Redirection if I don't intend to take damage and avoid direct combat)

Rending Turn (or Primed Continuity, depending on mission, duration for stealth and RT for direct combat), Augment (usually Fatal Teleport, Smoke Shadow on some sorties and Seeking Shuriken for Boss sorties), Primed Flow, Vitality.

 

It's an all purpose build that works for pretty much anything. Only downside is that you literally cannot use 4 because of it's stupid cost, not even Rage provides enough energy to make that thing worth using.

Thank you for the response.

Any suggestions on whether or not to use arcane trickery on this build? or what arcanes is useful for this frame? I am thinking of energize to assist with the huge energy drain.

[Nazrethim]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)ACiDiC_SiNz said:

Thank you for the response.

Any suggestions on whether or not to use arcane trickery on this build? or what arcanes is useful for this frame? I am thinking of energize to assist with the huge energy drain.

Trickery works just fine if you make use of Teleport. Energize is only really necessary to use BS, but BS is outperformed by Shuriken (low levels), Teleport (at all levels, specially with the augment) and Smoke Screen (all levels on melee oriented playstyle) anyways. Other than that pick yer choice. If you intend to use BS for it's purpose then you absolutely need max efficiency and some way to recover energy in large amounts. As I mentioned many times in the past: Ash doesn0t need Efficiency or Energize or Trinity, BS does. If you can live without BS, having Rage alone can provide you with enough energy to play him very well.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

2 hours ago, (PS4)ACiDiC_SiNz said:

Can anyone please share their latest Ash builds?

 

I mainly use ash for rescue and spy missions. Because of his 3 infinite scaling and the that he can use invisibility on the move much quicker than Loki. 

First I use a CL build for my melee

And a good Riven for my Hikou

As for my Ash build:( speed duration range build)

Pistol Amp, Rush 

Overextended, Narrowminded, Hand spring, Constitution, P Continuity, Armored agility, Prime Vigor, Fatal Teleport. 

Edited September 19, 2017 by (XB1)FCastle74

[Nazrethim]

1 minute ago, (Xbox One)FCastle74 said:

I mainly use ash for rescue and spy missions. Because of his 3 infinite scaling and the that he can use invisibility on the move much quicker than Loki. 

First I use a CL build for my melee

And a good Riven for my Hikou

As for my Ash build: speed duration range build

Pistol Amp, Rush 

Overextended, Narrowminded, Hand spring, Constitution, P Continuity, Armored agility, Prime Vigor, Fatal Teleport. 

That's a nice build.

You could also replace Armored Agility with Mobilize or other bulletjump mod too on more open maps.