DE, No More Frame Reworks Please. Just Stop

[SugarShow]

rest in nerferino.

[Kagisnad]

5 hours ago, HerpDerpy said:

that would be true if DE wasn't constantly adding new content. we get like 4 new frames a year, tons of weapons, tilesets, etc. reworking isn't necessary unless the frame has no use or purpose. like oberon, hydroid, or limbo. those frames see very little play because the community basically agrees that their kits are bad

when you add new things, old things go stale, because new things end up doing stuff that old things did, thus making them redundant. you can't keep stacking and stacking and stacking things in a game. it's a living, breathing environment in which every piece feeds into the other and affects them. every new addition affects old additions.

[bubbabenali]

4 hours ago, Culaio said:

 

Saryn abilties are pretty medicore alone, there are many other abilities in game that deal same or more damage while providing good CC, sayrn abiltiies also can take too much time to take effect(kill enemy) I frequently kill enemies saryn player is trying to kill with powers before his abilites have chance to finish off enemy, hell there were times where I by accident stoped spread of saryn abilities by killing enemy under effect of her ability(I felt bad about this), I dont do it on puporse, warframe is fast paced game and I focus on killing enemies as fast as possible.

Instead of braving you killing skills you'd should thank that Saryn to take 50% of every enemies health in a map-wide radius.

[Madway7]

1 hour ago, Stonehenge said:

With the duration i have, the CC on my 4th last 4,67 secondes, while dot keeps chewing ennemies. More than 4 secondes is okay for a mass dps like her, imo. 

To me the duration is not enough, I would like it if I could just cast it once, revive a teammate and flee rather than having to recast it one or two more times to revive someone.

I thought maybe they could make the duration could increase if the target was affected by spores.

[venon23]

2 minutes ago, bubbabenali said:

Instead of braving you killing skills you'd should thank that Saryn to take 50% of every enemies health in a map-wide radius.

ppl tend to foget about that that saryn dont give only dmg also debuff enemys  and debuff in a top of debuff once firs viral proc is done the second will remove 50% of the already 50% but yea  who cares

 

[bubbabenali]

3 minutes ago, venon23 said:

ppl tend to foget about that that saryn dont give only dmg also debuff enemys  and debuff in a top of debuff once firs viral proc is done the second will remove 50% of the already 50% but yea  who cares

 

No Viral doesn't stack, another proc only prolongs its duration, but Saryn can give both viral and toxic map wide thats normal good enough in a good team.

Edited November 26, 2016 by bubbabenali
Derp

[(PSN)Del-ProdigyT]

This community is a real basket case if you think having to use smoke bomb or other abilities you weren't touching before is unreasonable.

[Borg1611]

I think they really just need to do a total re-work of survivability in this game at this point. The stealth changes for Ash are nice, but like most frames, he's just in a spot where he's squishy as hell outside of being carried by a Trinity. 

Stealth frames only survive as long as there isn't AoE going off and they can remain perma invis.

CC frames easily get one shot by mobs they can't CC. This also makes CC frames like Titania look bad compared to frames with wider area CC (which happens to include tanky frames like Inaros and Rhino as they get the best of both worlds for some reason). 

Avoidance mechanics, CC and perma invis are simply not good excuses to leave frames as frail as they are. Avoiding damage 90% of the time then randomly getting one shot isn't great design. It's why they eventually nerfed perma CC in D3 and attempted to allow us to survive in other ways without it. I wouldn't necessarily copy D3's exact approach since they just threw in a bunch of crutch legendaries with huge DR percentages on them or onto sets and called it a day. 

I don't really want them to kill the unique identity of frames, so I think they need to bake better defenses into each frame fitting their theme. Ash for example is a "ninja" so maybe if he could parry/block from all sides instead of just the front that could be a huge survival bonus for him. Maybe even let him block without being in block mode on his melee weapon for a decent time period after using an ability/leaving smoke bomb or something. Titania instead of relying on RNGtastic avoidance mechanics and gimp CC could transfer some of the damage she takes to her razorflies and/or lantern (and get faster base cast speeds because they're insanely slow in a fast paced game where you can be one shot). I think if we went over every extra squishy frame there'd be some thematic way of improving their survival or even buffing one of their underused skills to add a survival component (IE: Nova's 1). 

They don't all need to be as tanky as Wukong/Inaros/Chroma, but 75%+ of the frames in the game could use a nice survival buff, including Ash. His new BS wouldn't be as bad if he wasn't made of wet tissue paper, like most frames.

Although, I do think his 4 could have used a better re-work. Maybe they could take a look at PoE's new skill "Blade Flurry." I think a more mobile version of that could have worked as a more interactive Blade Storm. Essentially copy its basic mechanics (toggle on, hits targets in X radius with blades and/or clone attacks building up a bigger aoe that he then unleashes by pressing 4 again) but allow him to move while it's toggled on (PoE's version is stationary channel) and you have a more interesting ability. 

TLDR: Do a full survival tuning pass for all frames without killing their themes. BS probably could have used a more interesting re-work. 

[----Fenrir----]

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

Also, for the record, Saryn's extremely successful. She has multiple viable builds, a niche, and multiple interesting gameplay choices beyond just pressing 4 and clearing a room. For all the complaints made about reworked frames here, she is a prime example of a rework done well, even if she is a tad complex.

Saryn only has one good build. The spore build. And instead of spamming "4", it's spamming "1" now. And the only way for Saryn to survive solo against higher level enemies is to use "Shadow Step" as a crutch. The new Saryn is not a great re-work. Infact she has much in common with Ash. Both are bad re-works and both were already really boring to play before they got re-worked.

[Stonehenge]

16 minutes ago, ----Fenrir---- said:

Saryn only has one good build. The spore build.

That's totally wrong. It's like saying invisible Loki is the only good build on Loki.

Quote

And instead of spamming "4", it's spamming "1" now.

1 is good, then 2, 3 and 4. Or 2, 4, or 1, 3, then 2, 4. As u want.

 

Quote

And the only way for Saryn to survive solo against higher level enemies is to use "Shadow Step" as a crutch.

Totally wrong again. I never use this, even in high level solo, and i'm fine. Like many others.

Quote

The new Saryn is not a great re-work. Infact she has much in common with Ash. Both are bad re-works and both were already really boring to play before they got re-worked.

Incredibly unfair and misunderstanding statement, but what 's the point to keep talking anyway.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Stonehenge

[-N7-Leonhart]

12 hours ago, Xylyssa said:

Ever since Saryn you guys have made terrible decisions regarding reworks (sans Nekros). Saryn's abilities don't synergize the way they are supposed to, she can't survive in ANYTHING without the use of very specific setups, and now Ash's ultimate takes too long to even be useful at anything but Solo and even then he will get gunned down unless he uses his now mandatory Smoke Bomb.

I am honestly willing to accept the cheap and potentially broken aspects of frames you plan to rework if this is the kind of quality we are going to get in them. Take a very hard long think about what you've done wrong and rectify it or you will end up purposely ruining most of your frames.

Either change how you think about certain frames or stop reworking them. I'd rather have broken legacy frames than unusable reworked ones.

Volt and Mesa were also brought back to light and I really enjoy them currently.

Oh and, Ash's was totally meant as a nerf from the start. Or what, did you thought they intended to buff it? 

[bubbabenali]

11 minutes ago, -BM-Leonhart said:

Volt and Mesa were also brought back to light and I really enjoy them currently.

Oh and, Ash's was totally meant as a nerf from the start. Or what, did you thought they intended to buff it? 

Don't forget about Meg she finally is usefull against anything other than Corpus.

[METAL_BAWKSES]

Call me crazy, but I would liked to see DE to push back the Ash rework and rework neglected frames such as Hydroid, Mag and Mesa, who really need a rework to function on par with most frames in the current incarnation of Warframe.   

[(XBOX)PompousNinja156]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Del-ProdigyT said:

This community is a real basket case if you think having to use smoke bomb or other abilities you weren't touching before is unreasonable.

The thing is, those abilities aren't like Mesa where a few small tweaks to her 2 was all it took to have an incentive towards keeping 2 & 3 up at all times and then using 4 to burst the tougher guys down. The reason no one cared for Smokebomb and Shuriken is because they never were, and still aren't, worth using in the first place.

Shuriken is still useless without the augment. Smokebomb is still the worst invisibility in the game and just got a QoL touch up (Augment is still bad) and Teleport may have more targets now, but it's best usage is basically a single target version of your old 4 using the augment.

So instead of being a 1 button frame centered on one good ability, he's just "meh" frame with 4 "meh" abilities, where everything he can do is done by everyone else better.

I mean, killing enemies with Bladestorm vanishes the body for stealth runs, but breaks your stealth combo if you use even it, thus defeating it's purpose as a stealth tool.  That's like if Scarab Armor ate up health to boost your armor, but instead of adding to your armor, it would override your Steel Fiber bonus and effectively lower your armor instead.

 

[GhostlightX]

14 hours ago, Xylyssa said:

she can't survive in ANYTHING without the use of very specific setups

Have you tried her Molt augment? It's not *that* specific.

[ranks21]

3 hours ago, ----Fenrir---- said:

Saryn only has one good build. The spore build. And instead of spamming "4", it's spamming "1" now. And the only way for Saryn to survive solo against higher level enemies is to use "Shadow Step" as a crutch. The new Saryn is not a great re-work. Infact she has much in common with Ash. Both are bad re-works and both were already really boring to play before they got re-worked.

^^ this

please DE put some endurance tac alerts with level 2k+ starting enemies so the noobs can actually experience your re-works.

Edited November 26, 2016 by ranks21

[Borg1611]

2 hours ago, bubbabenali said:

Don't forget about Meg she finally is usefull against anything other than Corpus.

Mag's rework was lackluster at best. She went from being an anti-corpus god to just being lackluster at everything. 

Her 2 would be an amazing boss killer, but it only lasts a fraction of a second on most bosses. It ends up being an inferior defensive/offensive combo ability that's primary purpose seems to be trolling your own team. 

Her 1, 3 and 4 are all /yawn worthy. 

[(PSN)Del-ProdigyT]

38 minutes ago, (XB1)PompousNinja156 said:

The thing is, those abilities aren't like Mesa where a few small tweaks to her 2 was all it took to have an incentive towards keeping 2 & 3 up at all times and then using 4 to burst the tougher guys down. The reason no one cared for Smokebomb and Shuriken is because they never were, and still aren't, worth using in the first place.

Shuriken is still useless without the augment. Smokebomb is still the worst invisibility in the game and just got a QoL touch up (Augment is still bad) and Teleport may have more targets now, but it's best usage is basically a single target version of your old 4 using the augment.

So instead of being a 1 button frame centered on one good ability, he's just "meh" frame with 4 "meh" abilities, where everything he can do is done by everyone else better.

I mean, killing enemies with Bladestorm vanishes the body for stealth runs, but breaks your stealth combo if you use even it, thus defeating it's purpose as a stealth tool.  That's like if Scarab Armor ate up health to boost your armor, but instead of adding to your armor, it would override your Steel Fiber bonus and effectively lower your armor instead.

 

Smoke bomb has always been worth using thing is people stupidly think the best ash build is a pure power strength build ignoring duration making smoke bomb weak.  Invisibility is the best form of survival in this game and the amount of power strength people are running with ash is complete overkill for blade storm even in sorties.  Seriously go test how low can your power strength be to kill level 100's with bladestorm you'll wonder why your running so many power strength mods.  I run a zenruki build with ash with only 8 seconds of invisibility and its all I need because energy isn't a concern for me.  Now that smoke bomb can be refreshed in mid air in someways I think ash just got a buff.  Your just lazy and did nothing but press bladestorm for the same reason I did it was really really good at farming because it killed so fast.  Shuriken on the other hands needs more work its never felt worth using past level 20 enemies without augment.  Mesa's 2 is very unintutive on what it even does.  Passing around a buff to strengthen her ult when her ult does solid damage as is negligible design.  

[(XBOX)PompousNinja156]

46 minutes ago, (PS4)Del-ProdigyT said:

Smoke bomb has always been worth using thing is people stupidly think the best ash build is a pure power strength build ignoring duration making smoke bomb weak.  Invisibility is the best form of survival in this game and the amount of power strength people are running with ash is complete overkill for blade storm even in sorties.  Seriously go test how low can your power strength be to kill level 100's with bladestorm you'll wonder why your running so many power strength mods.  I run a zenruki build with ash with only 8 seconds of invisibility and its all I need because energy isn't a concern for me.  Now that smoke bomb can be refreshed in mid air in someways I think ash just got a buff.  Your just lazy and did nothing but press bladestorm for the same reason I did it was really really good at farming because it killed so fast.  Shuriken on the other hands needs more work its never felt worth using past level 20 enemies without augment.  Mesa's 2 is very unintutive on what it even does.  Passing around a buff to strengthen her ult when her ult does solid damage as is negligible design.  

When your invisibility skill is of shorter duration than Shadow Step without the ability to refresh it's duration and it providing no major bonus aside from a completely irrelevant stagger, then yes, It is objectively the worst invisibility skill in the game and barely worth investing in Duration, a stat no other ability in his kit uses. Smoke bomb is weak even when you build for it, and the augmented version is weak because it doesn't have the decency to scale with mods.

Adding the fact that you're invulnerable during Bladestorm means that the added survivability from Smoke bomb was utterly irrelevant until the rework removed the instant cast/targeting of Bladestorm, means that the only reason Smoke Bomb will see more use is because they removed the easy access to the temporary invulnerability phase and no other reason exists to spend energy on it.

Also, I'll just gloss over the pointless ad hominems and adress your last point. Mesa's 2 is not used solely for the damage buff. Enemies in range of it have their guns jammed and get stunned briefly, making it useful for applying shotguns to your opponent's face as well as giving you a defense against Melee enemies since Shatter Shield doesn't protect from melee attacks. If you're only using it for the damage buff but then decide to try attacking me on assumptions that I'm just a filthy 4 spammer, you may need to reevaluate your own playstyles first.

The main issue with it before the rework was that you'd cast it and lose your own buff, and by building duration, you'd have to wait for it even longer before you could recast it, meaning wasting energy on a buff with 25% of it's duration and an effective coolddown of 75% of it's duration. A simple tweak was all it took to fix a minor design flaw. 

Edited November 27, 2016 by (XB1)PompousNinja156

[(PSN)Del-ProdigyT]

You don't get it if you simply rotated in smoke bomb for blade storm before rework you remove all possibilities of what can kill you suddenly when coming out of blade storm making it not as useless as you think.  You didn't need a lot power strength with ash, and you don't need a lot of duration you just need energy efficiency.   Now smoke bomb is simply much more demanding to be used because you morons were too stuck on one button.  You simply were not tinkering with ash enough.  You hive mind idiots need to learn how to think for yourself again. 

[(XBOX)PompousNinja156]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)Del-ProdigyT said:

You don't get it if you simply rotated in smoke bomb for blade storm before rework you remove all possibilities of what can kill you suddenly when coming out of blade storm making it not as useless as you think.  You didn't need a lot power strength with ash, and you don't need a lot of duration you just need energy efficiency.   Now smoke bomb is simply much more demanding to be used because you morons were too stuck on one button.  You simply were not tinkering with ash enough.  You hive mind idiots need to learn how to think for yourself again. 

Coming from the guy who said Mesa's 2 was unintuitive and negligible design, that's rich.

What you're basically advocating for is for us to spam Smokebomb, and The only build where Smokebomb could have been viable on Ash was Fatal Teleport spam builds where it is your main tool aside from Covert Lethality to easily and safely kill enemies from the safety of invisibility, and thus you could utterly ignore Bladestorm altogether and instead focus on Range, Duration, Efficiency, and Cast Speed.

And I can say this as someone who used both builds. Smokebomb, if it doesn't get a duration buff, at the least needs a new utility added to it to incentivize it's usage, and no, reducing the energy cost of marking enemies is not an incentive to use Smokebomb on it's own nor would I classsify it as anything but forced synergy. I appreciate the QoL change, but it needs to do better than a 1 second stagger in a small radius.

[Lijka]

13 hours ago, Keltik0ne said:

The problem with bladestorm was it locked the player in an animation sequence, created invulnerability frames that impede team mates and was considered very cheesy in the whole 1 button nukes a room regard.

The changes only looked at the last part, and even then all that was done was making it clunky and a bit reliant on smokescreen.

As far as reworks go, it was pointless.

This.

If the point was to make the ability more interactive, then why do we still have the cutscene mode? This should have been the first thing to go along with Ash's invincibility in that time. I find the current rework a band-aid rather than a proper solution.

[(PSN)fishfam2]

I agree that rework had gotten over the top in excess. For example: Valkyr rework was so upsetting the whole point of hysteria is that she is invincible now there is no point in using it, why use it if ur goin to take all the damage at once after its over, what is the point of moding for efficiency if in the end ur still goin to loose it faster if u have it on to long? She was one of my favorite frames prior to the rework, please put it back the way it was, PLEASE!

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

17 hours ago, Xylyssa said:

Ever since Saryn you guys have made terrible decisions regarding reworks (sans Nekros). Saryn's abilities don't synergize the way they are supposed to, she can't survive in ANYTHING without the use of very specific setups, and now Ash's ultimate takes too long to even be useful at anything but Solo and even then he will get gunned down unless he uses his now mandatory Smoke Bomb.

I am honestly willing to accept the cheap and potentially broken aspects of frames you plan to rework if this is the kind of quality we are going to get in them. Take a very hard long think about what you've done wrong and rectify it or you will end up purposely ruining most of your frames.

Either change how you think about certain frames or stop reworking them. I'd rather have broken legacy frames than unusable reworked ones.

what do you mean except nekros? 

And Volt doesnt get an honorable mention on the trash pile?

[VergilDT]

I said from the day the Ash devstream came out that their rework would kill the character. 2 Mods, DE Support, and Community managers all claimed I was doomsaying. Now you can all eat your @(*()$ words.