《 Sorties , RNG And The Need For A Token System 》

[Snib]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Mofojokers said:

Same tune as always nothing has changed yet. But we will keep trying as @Trichouette said. 😊

Nothing else we can do. Meanwhile we'll keep collecting that sweet sweet Endo. Or the lens I got today - Madurai, that won't even sell... The upside of not getting rivens is I don't ever feel tempted to run siphons, which are boring anyway.

However, like I said previously, I'm not stuck on the token system proposal. Any change to clean up those drop tables so the rewards match the format and time invested would work for me. 

[Trichouette]

6 hours ago, Snib said:

Nothing else we can do. Meanwhile we'll keep collecting that sweet sweet Endo. Or the lens I got today - Madurai, that won't even sell... The upside of not getting rivens is I don't ever feel tempted to run siphons, which are boring anyway.

However, like I said previously, I'm not stuck on the token system proposal. Any change to clean up those drop tables so the rewards match the format and time invested would work for me. 

Honestly I don't even care about rivens and I don't even have time to play warframe (nor anything to do in warframe...)

And even if devs don't listen to us, well i'll keep trying.

Beside, I have nothing else to do :p (procrastination yaaaaay)

As I said on other threads, days after days more and more players are angry of how unrewarding the game feels.

And honestly I don't see anything else that could be as rewarding and interesting for the devs than a token system. Every other suggestion i've seen so far either make it still RNG as f* or there is less RNG but no grind whatsoever (which means a big "no" from the devs usually)

Edited January 19, 2017 by Trichouette

[Snib]

30 minutes ago, Trichouette said:

Honestly I don't even care about rivens and I don't even have time to play warframe (nor anything to do in warframe...)

I'm still playing, but I hear you about rivens. They should have spent some more time on the concept before throwing it out there like that. Some Exilus style utility mod with interesting effects - even cosmetic ones - rather than putting more OP into OP might have served better. Anyway, water under the bridge. And I'd still rather have a riven that might be fun than endo, lenses, reactors that I don't need and are no fun at all.

[(PSN)Mofojokers]

Edited

Edited January 21, 2017 by (PS4)Mofojokers

[(PSN)Mofojokers]

Seems to be alot more buzz about sorties especially because of the idea of archwing sorties joining the ranks. It's one thread after another but it's all helping to highlight the issues.

[Snib]

That's a different issue though. People originally hated it because it was terribly designed - give us these fast jetpacks that are great fun to race around in but then combine them with super static game play and claustrophobic maps. And then add Sharkwing that removes even the speed part. The whole thing was like a sick joke really, it should never have gone the initial planning stage in that form. And then years after they finally add some game modes to it that capitalize on the speed but change the control scheme in a way that players fight the controls (and their disorientation) more than anything. It's like for both iterations the responsible dev was sitting there, having mad fun at dangling the carrot but then giving us nothing but the stick.

Adding that to sorties is probably a good idea because of the buzz it creates, hopefully forcing the devs to fix it up rather than ignoring it as much as players do.

[Trichouette]

Well they want to change YET AGAIN the RNG around the rewards, and I still see your typical every day thread about "omg the rewards suck do something DE" or "here is how you could fix it".

The archwing in sortie makes me laugh quite a bit honestly, I know they said "that may happen when archwing will get a bit more content" which means "not now but later", but at this point it'll just turn into a "you have to play amesha to survive and get yourself an elytron to blast the whole map".

I can't wait for archwing to be added just to get the whole community to flame DE again about how they hate archwing being pushed down their throat as always <3

[_Vortus_]

Some rewards shouldn't be able to be bought and left as random.  Needs to be a purchase list with tokens, and a list that is rng based for completing the mission.   Purchase items, Kuva, Nitain, Rivens, Endo, Traces, Lens, etc  should be lower tier items.    Items like Catalysts, Reactors, made Exillus, made Forma and other items need left on a rng roll.    Or made significantly more expensive if on the purchase scale.

As to AW, time will tell.   I can't wait for it either as I want to play it, enjoy a challenge.  Heh Especially when someone says there is only one way to do it.    High MR players were bailing from today's sortie 3 Grineer Exilus raging it was to hard due to all the knock downs, slow downs and leeches.  Started with 4, 3 bailed over the first wave, within a couple min of each other, pissing and moaning,  finshed the game with two players that didn't even start with me.   I expect AW will be no different.   Know what's coming, pick our loadout and mod appropriately and win.      But hey, no, lets gets upset about it before it even gets added.   Don't like AW after its put in, don't play that days sortie.   lol I know some that did that whenever there was a Corpus sortie due to their..... issues.... with some Corpus units.   

 

[(XBOX)UKILR]

On 12/1/2016 at 9:26 AM, (PS4)Mofojokers said:

I like this gif

[jessicakqs]

53 minutes ago, _Vortus_ said:

Some rewards shouldn't be able to be bought and left as random.  Needs to be a purchase list with tokens, and a list that is rng based for completing the mission.   Purchase items, Kuva, Nitain, Rivens, Endo, Traces, Lens, etc  should be lower tier items.    Items like Catalysts, Reactors, made Exillus, made Forma and other items need left on a rng roll.    Or made significantly more expensive if on the purchase scale.

As to AW, time will tell.   I can't wait for it either as I want to play it, enjoy a challenge.  Heh Especially when someone says there is only one way to do it.    High MR players were bailing from today's sortie 3 Grineer Exilus raging it was to hard due to all the knock downs, slow downs and leeches.  Started with 4, 3 bailed over the first wave, within a couple min of each other, pissing and moaning,  finshed the game with two players that didn't even start with me.   I expect AW will be no different.   Know what's coming, pick our loadout and mod appropriately and win.      But hey, no, lets gets upset about it before it even gets added.   Don't like AW after its put in, don't play that days sortie.   lol I know some that did that whenever there was a Corpus sortie due to their..... issues.... with some Corpus units.   

 

It is a good idea but...

Rivens should not be purchasable, this is not good for the people who earns platinum by selling them. I don't understand why people needs them, currently you can get a tons of kills without rivens :/, I don't care about it but it's nice when you got a nice one... I personally prefer this way, people who really want them then should play in order to acquire or buy them if they don't have any patience, but i'm surprised, rivens aren't as common as uncommon lenses for me! xD

and also I agree, prices should be higher, not good for business 

[_Vortus_]

48 minutes ago, jessicakqs said:

It is a good idea but...

Rivens should not be purchasable, this is not good for the people who earns platinum by selling them. I don't understand why people needs them, currently you can get a tons of kills without rivens :/, I don't care about it but it's nice when you got a nice one... I personally prefer this way, people who really want them then should play in order to acquire or buy them if they don't have any patience, but i'm surprised, rivens aren't as common as uncommon lenses for me! xD

and also I agree, prices should be higher, not good for business 

When I talk Rivens though, I mean that you are just buying a Riven, which one you receive will be up to RNG.    Now, choosing Rifle, Shotgun, Secondary, Melee... I have not decided.   Leaning towards leaving that up to RNG as well and just having the item labeled as "Riven".   

[Snib]

2 hours ago, _Vortus_ said:

Some rewards shouldn't be able to be bought and left as random.  Needs to be a purchase list with tokens, and a list that is rng based for completing the mission.   Purchase items, Kuva, Nitain, Rivens, Endo, Traces, Lens, etc  should be lower tier items.    Items like Catalysts, Reactors, made Exillus, made Forma and other items need left on a rng roll.    Or made significantly more expensive if on the purchase scale.

I'm surprised you'd want the farmable resources like Kuva, Endo or traces (wtf man, since when does anybody need traces?) to be on the list of buyable items. Why would anybody buy them if they can just farm them? Those are the ones that make more sense as a base reward or an RNG filler to me (should be base reward tbh), I see no reason to have them buyable. After all getting a farmable resource from a once-a-day mission is the main reason for the drop table complaints. It's about as much fun as getting your 1 Morphic as a login reward...

2 hours ago, _Vortus_ said:

As to AW, time will tell.   I can't wait for it either as I want to play it, enjoy a challenge.  Heh Especially when someone says there is only one way to do it.    High MR players were bailing from today's sortie 3 Grineer Exilus raging it was to hard due to all the knock downs, slow downs and leeches.  Started with 4, 3 bailed over the first wave, within a couple min of each other, pissing and moaning,  finshed the game with two players that didn't even start with me.   I expect AW will be no different.   Know what's coming, pick our loadout and mod appropriately and win.      But hey, no, lets gets upset about it before it even gets added.   Don't like AW after its put in, don't play that days sortie.   lol I know some that did that whenever there was a Corpus sortie due to their..... issues.... with some Corpus units.   

If you pub you have to expect your team mates to be on the level of trash mobs at best. And MR is mostly irrelevant, Draco led to plenty clueless high MR players. 

AW should be fun. Although I can think of some nasty sortie effect combinations - Archwing Rush with extreme cold effect (= slow) anyone? :D Although I expect it to be only the static modes like MD and Interception. We'll see.

28 minutes ago, _Vortus_ said:

When I talk Rivens though, I mean that you are just buying a Riven, which one you receive will be up to RNG.    Now, choosing Rifle, Shotgun, Secondary, Melee... I have not decided.   Leaning towards leaving that up to RNG as well and just having the item labeled as "Riven".   

Should definitely stay full RNG.

Edited January 25, 2017 by Snib

[_Vortus_]

@Snib  depending on the amount and the cost, yup,  Lots of stuff uses Endo.   Heh I didnt previously need endo, but situations change.   I have close to 3k relics, thats alot of traces needed to upgrade.  After trades, now down to 9 Rivens, most at between 10 and 20 rolls.  None are perfect and I plan to keep rolling till they are. .  All are for weapons I like so I plan on keeping them.   3500 per roll.   Now, I bought all the slots, so eventually ill probably have 60 Rivens,    Thats alot of Kuva needed, not to mention Endo.    Just because one person doesn't need something doesn't mean another isn't.   

 

[Snib]

@_Vortus_ I wasn't saying they are not needed, I was saying that whenever I need them I can just instantly hop into any of the numerous missions that provide me with them rather than waste my daily sortie reward on that. Unless you greatly increase the amounts we get from sorties to make them a viable alternative. 

[(PSN)Mofojokers]

Still going strong.... 2k endo change hasn't deterred us. 😆

- Changes made to the front post to take the new changes into account.

[PsychoTech.ARMS]

I agree with the OP completely. only problem is that I think DE will never do it.

[Sorenxoras]

I definitely like the idea, but i can see stuff being more expensive. To make sure players keep playing for the things they want, I'm perfectly fine with that though. You should still have to work up to the thing you want, so a longer grind for getting the item you want 100% of the time sounds good to me. It might feel longer occasionally to the luckier players, but for the ones with abysmal luck it would be a godsend. The challenge would be setting prices and how many points you can get a day.

[Trichouette]

1 hour ago, Sorenxoras said:

I definitely like the idea, but i can see stuff being more expensive. To make sure players keep playing for the things they want, I'm perfectly fine with that though. You should still have to work up to the thing you want, so a longer grind for getting the item you want 100% of the time sounds good to me. It might feel longer occasionally to the luckier players, but for the ones with abysmal luck it would be a godsend. The challenge would be setting prices and how many points you can get a day.

And that's exactly the point ;)

As we already said, the propositions in the OP are just suggestions, and I don't agree with them but we're more talking about the system and what it can provide to the players and to the devs.

1 hour ago, PsychoTechARMS said:

I agree with the OP completely. only problem is that I think DE will never do it.

I see you followed my advice :p

Well they said again that they don't want to do that. But we keep trying to push the idea.

We've more and more players on our side every day.

[(PSN)Mofojokers]

12 minutes ago, Trichouette said:

And that's exactly the point ;)

As we already said, the propositions in the OP are just suggestions, and I don't agree with them but we're more talking about the system and what it can provide to the players and to the devs.

I see you followed my advice :p

Well they said again that they don't want to do that. But we keep trying to push the idea.

We've more and more players on our side every day.

Pretty much what has been said above. I could set them all to 500 to 1000 but it makes no difference. People will just comment to lower the prices for the thread.

The token prices are 100% up to DE we just want the idea of the token system. 😊

Yeah definitely i was surprised we hit 75... then 100,150,200,250,300,350 and now about to hit 400...😄

[(PSN)zeltwang]

As good an idea as I've seen. The current system sucks for giving out rewards

[(PSN)mmcareen]

After my original post I have given this way more consideration then I should have.  I have talked to a lot of people about it as well and still come to the same conclusion that a token system is a bad idea.

Let me explain first where I'm coming from.  I have 4500 plus hours in game, every mod in the game maxed except 4 of the ones we just got, over 2 million Endo, 150 million credits, 40 plus reactors and 30 something catalysts.  So with all that its pretty safe to say I don't need anything from sorties except riven mods.  It's also the reward which basically everyone posting here wants.  Rebecca showed the chart on the devstream showing the increase and steady hold of people running sorties dailies sense the introduction of riven mods.  So its safe to say most people run them hoping for Riven mods, myself included.

As someone who has very little to do, my daily reason to come on is to run syndicate missions, raid and run sorties.  A token system for me, makes it pointless to get run sorties.  Riven mods are new, we will eventually reach a point where they are flooding the market with all the ones everyone wants just like every other item they have ever introduced.  By the point, I would have gotten all the riven mods I wanted, got up to the cap in tokens that was suggested and stopped running them because there is no point.  You can already see the riven hype slowing down, When they first introduced them, all you see is WTB Soma Riven, Bolter Riven, Dread Riven, Tonkor Riven.  The market has been dying on those, and it will continue to die, eventually stabilizing out.  What does this have to do with a token system?  Simple, if I got all the riven mods I want, and there is no other reward in there I want, the only reason to run them is to make plat.  If its not worth the plat then sorties wouldn't be worth doing.  Before PC uses start to comment on prices, console market is very different then PC.  As I'm primarily a PS4 player I comments will be focused on our game.  Veiled Rifles are already down to 30P, Mofo commented himself about buying a Arcane Grace Set for 600P, good luck getting a grace set on PC for 600P.

As stated above about a reason to run it, putting a cap on tokens gives me no reason to run them either, it would be the same as syndicate missions, I run syndicate missions to collect medallions so I can turn them in a sell the next weapon they release.  If syndicate medallions had a cap, I wouldn't run them because I'd be at the cap.

Kuva as a reward?  Isn't this just Nitain all over again?

Arcanes, I'm still against them being added, last stats I have gotten, which was about a month, 15% of players have run the raids, 5% run it daily, 1% run JV Daily.  Adding them to something they people run daily anyways, of course that's going to lower the price of them.  Making anyone easier to get always hurts the market for that item.  Made R5s easier to get, the price of max mods dropped, Loki Prime Systems got added to T3Sab, price dropped.  Loki was 30P before he got vaulted.  It is also going to make it a lot harder to find raid group.  Why run a Raid with a bunch of randoms who mightn't know what they are doing when I can just do the sortie instead.  You also talk about added other items to raids to make them worth while, but you're not pushing those ideas, you are pushing this one.

I lost a lot of good players and friends when SoTR came, with the void gone, they lost their endgame, so they stopped playing.  I have done the endless relics, not as good, a minute pass every 5 minutes ruins the momentum for me.  Adding a system that makings running one of the only things I have to run pointless, is a bad idea.  Now I'm sure I'll get a lot of we will call negative replies because of this, problem even be called a white night for having a different view point (seems to be the way of the forums lately) but it's how I see it.  Does sorties rewards or system need a rework?  God yes.  I do feel however, token is not the way to go, I'd rather they take rivens out of sorties all together then put in a token system.  It's not a system everyone wants, I understand why people want it, I just don't agree with it.  Have a good day.

[Snib]

@(PS4)mmcareen that's a long post to explain how your entire game play as well as your stance on sortie rewards is about securing your plat income. While you are free to play for your own reasons, personally I would hope the devs find better ways to keep players interested than relying on a trading meta-game.

PS: Meta-weapon riven interest waning also has a lot to do with them having been nerfed heavily.

Edited January 27, 2017 by Snib

[Trichouette]

47 minutes ago, (PS4)mmcareen said:

putting a cap on tokens gives me no reason to run them either

Who talked about a cap on token...? I don't remember seeing this anywhere but I skipped some posts.

47 minutes ago, (PS4)mmcareen said:

Kuva as a reward?  Isn't this just Nitain all over again?

Not when you have the choice of the reward.

You know some people were actually happy about having 3 nitain after a sortie, to some players it's more worthy than a stoopid lens.

When you have the choice, any reward added to the list is a good opportunity to make a player in need use his tokens.

47 minutes ago, (PS4)mmcareen said:

Making anyone easier to get always hurts the market for that item.

Stop saying it's "easier"

Geting a specific arcane isn't hard in the first place, it's "tedious".

You can run LoR everyday for a week and get 5 arcane guardian if you're lucky, or you can run sortie everyday for X days and get ONE arcane guardian.

47 minutes ago, (PS4)mmcareen said:

I lost a lot of good players and friends when SoTR came, with the void gone, they lost their endgame

People calling "endless mission & endless scaling" endgame...

There is no endgame in warframe (incoming basic warframe player saying that fashionframe is endgame)

47 minutes ago, (PS4)mmcareen said:

Does sorties rewards or system need a rework?  God yes.

It's like the third time they rework the sortie reward and it's still a mess. Maybe after the tenth rework, devs will understand why we need a token system. And the reason is simple :

SORTIES ARE NOT FARMABLE

 

 

-edit-

People should really stop saying "it'll have X specific impact on the market" when they can't predict anything about the market.

Example : I thought telos boltace would cost like 100 pl after the release and then drop to 50 like most syndicate weapons because of how many people chose suda & hexis. Months later I managed to sell one for 120pl, my friend sold one for almost 200pl.

The market is unpredictable, nerf & buff are what make most changes, the lootrate aswell, but not on things as valuable as rivens.

Edited January 27, 2017 by Trichouette

[(PSN)mmcareen]

2 minutes ago, Snib said:

@(PS4)mmcareen that's a long post to explain how your entire game play as well as your stance on sortie rewards is about securing your plat income. While you are free to play for your own reasons, personally I would hope the devs find better ways to keep players interested that relying on a trading meta-game.

I'm not actually free to play at all.. well my PC account is, I have brought a few primes accessories, nova prime access and 2 renown pact on PS4 just to support the game.

 

1 minute ago, Trichouette said:

Who talked about a cap on token...? I don't remember seeing this anywhere but I skipped some posts.

Not when you have the choice of the reward.

You know some people were actually happy about having 3 nitain after a sortie, to some players it's more worthy than a stoopid lens.

When you have the choice, any reward added to the list is a good opportunity to make a player in need use his tokens.

Stop saying it's "easier"

Geting a specific arcane isn't hard in the first place, it's "tedious".

You can run LoR everyday for a week and get 5 arcane guardian if you're lucky, or you can run sortie everyday for X days and get ONE arcane guardian.

People calling "endless mission & endless scaling" endgame...

There is no endgame in warframe (incoming basic warframe player saying that fashionframe is endgame)

It's like the third time they rework the sortie reward and it's still a mess. Maybe after the tenth rework, devs will understand why we need a token system. And the reason is simple :

SORTIES ARE NOT FARMABLE

Cap was mentions a couple of times.  As for endless not being endgame, I don't enjoy going into a mobile defense where I can just crush everything.  At least with the endless void, eventually something could kill me, move or die.  The challenge of just seeing how long you can last with a bunch of randoms.  Just because you didn't enjoy it, doesn't mean others didn't.

I also don't find the raids tedious, get you don't want, sell it, buy the one you want with the profit.  If sorties not being Farmable is the problem, then make them farmable, MOVE riven mods then again that would only make people stop running sorties again as for the most part that's why people run them.

[Trichouette]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)mmcareen said:

The challenge of just seeing how long you can last with a bunch of randoms.

Well good news, you can still do that.

People are just complaining because instead of staying in an old white & gold tileset it's now across the whole starmap. I simply can't understand that.

14 minutes ago, (PS4)mmcareen said:

Just because you didn't enjoy it, doesn't mean others didn't.

Sorry but I don't call "endless scaling" endgame at all. Nothing is balanced, at some point most frames get one-shot .

14 minutes ago, (PS4)mmcareen said:

I also don't find the raids tedious, get you don't want, sell it, buy the one you want with the profit.

Oh yeah you'll totally buy an arcane as expensive as grace with a pitiful arcane that sells at 15pl.

Once again, they really should rework these useless arcanes.

14 minutes ago, (PS4)mmcareen said:

 If sorties not being Farmable is the problem, then make them farmable

If sorties were farmable, rivens, lens, legendary core, potatoes, even ayatans, these things wouldn't be reward. They're way too "rewarding" for a farmable mission.

Why do you think most missions on the starmap award you with useless mods and a bit of endo ?

If we could farm sortie, people would ONLY play this the whole day long and get way more reward out of it than any other mission in the game.

Run hieracon for an hour... Around 2k endo if you're lucky.

Run full sortie that sometimes generate with 0 endless mission, it takes 30 min and most of the time you get an ayatan.

See the problem ?

If sorties were farmable, the most common reward would be random mods and lower amount of endo.

14 minutes ago, (PS4)mmcareen said:

I also don't find the raids tedious

Well you're part of the people who can farm the same thing over and over again with absolutely nothing interesting happening and still call it "not tedious". Good for you.

But people are leaving warframes because of that kind of thing.

I used to run raid everyday, but after weeks of doing this I got bored to death and stopped doing raid.

It's the EXACT SAME MISSION. Most people can't stand doing that over and over.

Edited January 27, 2017 by Trichouette