Test Before You Talk

[(PSN)Darth-Escar]

Just now, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Jack of all trades; MASTER OF NONE

People always seem to forget that second part. It is why he will never be considered good.

He doesn't have to be a master, and even if he did, he can be considered the master multitasker. There is not much which Oberon can't do for you.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Just now, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

master multitasker

That's not the way it works.

1 minute ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

There is not much which Oberon can't do for you.

And any one of them can be done better by other frames.

[(PSN)Darth-Escar]

1 minute ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

That's not the way it works.

And any one of them can be done better by other frames.

But it takes a whole team to do what Oberon does. The team would do it better, but that's because it's a team. If that was an issue, it would also apply to warframes who are a little lacking in some aspect, right? If not, then Oberon shouldn't be an exception, unless you somehow have good reason for that. If so, then I could say that Rhino shouldn't be buffing damage, because there are other warframes who do it better.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

But it takes a whole team to do what Oberon does.

And their collective will do better than what Oberon can contribute, and I don't care what you use solo. When it comes to solo, I will always chose Loki or Frost over Oberon. Hell, If I want a Jack of All Trades, I will chose Volt over Oberon. For newbies, I would always suggest Rhino over Oberon. Etc.

[Thebel]

22 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

But it takes a whole team to do what Oberon does. The team would do it better, but that's because it's a team. If that was an issue, it would also apply to warframes who are a little lacking in some aspect, right? If not, then Oberon shouldn't be an exception, unless you somehow have good reason for that. If so, then I could say that Rhino shouldn't be buffing damage, because there are other warframes who do it better.

 

Think of it this way, if you set out to make the best squad of frames possible, with 4 slots who would you fill it with? You'd obviously have roles to fill being healer, buffer/debuffer, cc, and dps. If you only have 4 slots, you'd pick the frame that best fills those roles. Objectively ask yourself would I put Oberon in any of those rolls vs another frame, does he do anything better than the others to warrant a spot?

This kind of min/maxing is the only time anyone will actually care if a frame is good or bad, you're average pug will not think twice about you using Oberon. No one will care what you can do solo, or how well you can do it, that doesn't effect a squad build at all.

Edited December 4, 2016 by Thebel

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

1 minute ago, Thebel said:

 

Think of it this way, if you set out to make the best squad of frames possible, with 4 slots who would you fill it with? You'd obviously have roles to fill being healer, buffer/debuffer, cc, and dps. If you only have 4 slots, you'd pick the frame that best fills those roles. Objectively ask yourself would I put Oberon in any of those rolls vs another frame, does he do anything better than the others to warrant a spot?

This kind of min/maxing is the only time anyone will actually care if a frame is good or bad, you're average pug will not think twice about you using Oberon. No one will care what you can do solo, or how well you can do it, that doesn't effect a squad build at all.

Well said.

[(PSN)Darth-Escar]

32 minutes ago, Thebel said:

 

Think of it this way, if you set out to make the best squad of frames possible, with 4 slots who would you fill it with? You'd obviously have roles to fill being healer, buffer/debuffer, cc, and dps. If you only have 4 slots, you'd pick the frame that best fills those roles. Objectively ask yourself would I put Oberon in any of those rolls vs another frame, does he do anything better than the others to warrant a spot?

This kind of min/maxing is the only time anyone will actually care if a frame is good or bad, you're average pug will not think twice about you using Oberon. No one will care what you can do solo, or how well you can do it, that doesn't effect a squad build at all.

Yeah, but you don't necessarily want one role for each slot, or even want a full squad. In survival you'd likely want multiple high damage dealers. In defense or interception, you'd likely want multiple crowd controllers. Then there are public matches, where you never know what kind of teammates you'll have, thus you must make sure you're prepared for whatever the mission has to offer for maximum success rate. With Oberon, I fill every role a public squad would need, and with setup squads, I'm the well-rounded weakness coverer.

Also, I made this thread specifically because people do. In my OP I already talked about how I'm insulted and stuff. You probably have a different experience, because you don't have 42% usage with Oberon, but it's mine and I se no good reason why.

[Yagamilight123]

3 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Yeah, but you don't necessarily want one role for each slot, or even want a full squad. In survival you'd likely want multiple high damage dealers. In defense or interception, you'd likely want multiple crowd controllers. Then there are public matches, where you never know what kind of teammates you'll have, thus you must make sure you're prepared for whatever the mission has to offer for maximum success rate. With Oberon, I fill every role a public squad would need, and with setup squads, I'm the well-rounded weakness coverer.

Also, I made this thread specifically because people do. In my OP I already talked about how I'm insulted and stuff. You probably have a different experience, because you don't have 42% usage with Oberon, but it's mine and I se no good reason why.

The problem with "experience" ( more like fans but oks )people is that tend to ignore numbers and reality . Oberon is not good in a team (if a warframe is outperformance by other in his rol , it's not good ) , and for that you dont see oberons in normal team compositions . You can use it , people shouldt insult you (at least for what you tell in this Thread ... ) but that doesnt change the Oberon "Tier"

[Jackviator]

11 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Way too often, I see people judging weapons and warframes without a lot or any usage with them.

If your friend offered you a coconut cake, and you just weren't into coconut, and you turn them down, well... neither of you are wrong. One simply just doesn't like coconut cake, and the other does. It then wouldn't be the job of the friend in question to turn to the guy they were offering the cake to, and say: "You can't tell me you don't like coconut cake until you've eaten this ENTIRE CAKE I have here."

I think, after a certain point, people will simply decide whether they like something or not. That point does not have to be after tens of hours using it. For example, I don't like to use Chroma that much but one of my friends is a Chroma main. I'm a Frost main, because I just like how his abilities work. Neither of us is wrong, it's just a matter of opinion and what type of playstyle we enjoy. He enjoys how tanky Chroma is, I enjoy supporting the team with globes and CCing the battlefield.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

4 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

In defense or interception, you'd likely want multiple crowd controllers.

Nope. In defense, you only want one Frost or a Loki + Vauban. In Interception, at best, you would want two Vaubans. Oberon is not Frost, Loki, or Vauban.

[Archonos23]

11 hours ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

The best is always a small percentage of anything. I don't see a reason why this would not apply to gaming too.

I agree with this. Play however you want and with what you like. Just don't try to pretend it is the best gear in the game. If you like Oberon then play him. Just don't pretend like he is the best or get offended when people call you out on it.

In the end, pretending he is great only hurts you. If people pretend he is good then he is less likely to ever get the buffs he needs to actually be good.

Agree +1

I know there are those people that are going to shun you from their teams because of your choice, and I can see that if something like that happen it can suck.

But if it's just them saying that a frame is bad does not mean they're saying it because they hate the frame, they just want the frame to be buffed, to be made better. One can even argue that some of them may even really like the frame, and actually care enough to think and give feedback on the frame's abilities and such.

When I looked at Nekros, his rework is really good and made him a very strong frame, with very useful abilities.

In the end, if the frame you like is buffed then it will also change other people's minds about the frame and it will be more accepted, (or sought after even) in teams.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

23 minutes ago, Archonos23 said:

But if it's just them saying that a frame is bad does not mean they're saying it because they hate the frame, they just want the frame to be buffed, to be made better. One can even argue that some of them may even really like the frame, and actually care enough to think and give feedback on the frame's abilities and such.

Volt is one of my favorite frames, but I still don't rate him higher than mid-tier. I would love to see him buffed.

I think Nekros's rework made him worse, but two slight changes could make him amazing.

Edited December 4, 2016 by (PS4)DesecratedFlame

[Guest]

jfc.  Half the people in this thread just keep embodying everything wrong with the people the OP is talking about.  Let's talk about a few things that many people in this thread are getting completely wrong.

For starters, a lot of people can level a frame, maybe even forma it once or twice, and still have no idea how to properly build or play it.  "Oh I just have to look at stats and I know enough to make a judgement on it" is a load of garbage.  Stats don't tell you anything 99% of the time.  There's very rarely any info available about the underlying mechanics of abilities and how they function.  People say "body count doesn't work for Exalted Blade".  That's false.  It does work, you just have to know how to use it properly to gain the benefit of it.  A lot of people think wukong is a terrible tank because using a bunch of armor and health mods doesn't do crap for him.  In reality, wukong is arguably one of the strongest tanks in the game when used by a player who knows how to toggle defy on and off, and has built him properly around high duration.  Can anyone tell me how to calculate the EHP for someone that's completely invulnerable to literally everything?  Another example is mag and her magnetize.  People get mad that their bullets get sucked into magnetize and they "do no damage"    They also claim magnetize does flat damage.  These things are all wrong.  Every bullet that hits magnetize gets directed to the center and will hit the first target it comes to, punching through if able.  The damage it does is added to the ticking damage AND to the explosion damage of the magnetize.  (You do realize magnetize explodes for LAWLZ damage in a stupid huge range, right?)  Not only this, but the enemy bullets (which scale just like their health) also get added to the damage of the magnetize because enemies are dumb and shoot themselves inside it.  That's MORE scaling damage.  Yay!  So, no, mag doesn't have 1-button-brokenly-scaling damage anymore, like some other frames still do (equinox anyone?), however she still very much scales, and can still take down very high level enemies with ease, while also providing CC, cover, and other fun goodies (zenurik + energize + Gpull still works great).  At the same time, not everyone has tried every build possible with the frames they've formed such concrete opinions of.  I've seen nova "mains" with no clue how to do a speed build, no clue how to use AMD augment for mobile cover, no clue how to max an AMD and use it to destroy anything from behind cover, no comprehension of the team utility value of wormholes...  The only thing going through their head is "I press 4".  Players who've actually been playing this game for a long time and get good at a wide variety of frames and builds understand that there is always another way to build something to great effect and likely for purposes they'd never tried or thought of.  So, everyone making arguments about any frame based on "they know all they need to know about it" are full of it.

Then there's the concept of infinite scaling itself and it's merit as a measure of quality in the game.  A record on Mot (i think it was mot) was set recently using equinox with an EV trin, a frost for CC and protection, and a 4th guy no one cared about.  Anyways, I didn't pay attention to the details of how far they went, it was 150+ waves of void Defense.  The take home info was how.  EV does scaling damage that's a percentage of enemy health, based on power strength.  A good EV build should be able to kill just about anything with no more than a handful of EV and WOL casts.  Maim basically copies the health of enemies killed in its radius and duplicates that into damage shot back at everyone when it's released, scaled by power str.  So, all they did was EV a few heavy guys within maims radius and then release the maim to pretty much annihilate the whole map, regardless of the enemy level.  Rinse and repeat till you die of boredom.  In case you're curious, you can do this same damage profile solo with a corrosive pox, covert lethality, and a rest / maim build.  You'll wipe out entire rooms at once after using CL on a handful of sleeping heavies, no matter the level.  You'll just run into scaling problems without stripping armor with the pox.  Anyways, this whole thing took the team like 7 hours or something absurd.  Their mothers were proud (go outside and play).  The point is though that these feats of mind-boggling boredom are total outliers in regards to the game itself and honestly do more to draw attention to the broken enemy scaling, broken damage system, and exploitative tactics than anything else.  The only reason these things aren't going to get nerfed into the ground (again in trinity's case... she's been nerfed like a dozen times and she's still pretty OP) is because the vast majority of the player base isn't using these things to bypass time gates and ignore purchasable conveniences.  Remember peacemaker, greedy pull, radial javelin, polarize, etc?  Those things became part of farming metas that allowed players to make a whole lot of progress in very little time and they were fairly quickly nerfed out of a job.  No one cares that Maim scales infinitely with enemies killed in it because it takes a smart group comp, and a bit of work to fully capitalize on.  That's not gonna totally outclass anything else at a meta farm level, which is where this game actually happens.  And when it comes to the meta level of farming crap, you'd be surprised that a wide array of frames and abilities will work pretty much equally well.  For instance, Mag can out dmg saryn on bere with ease.  Nezha can too.  Rhino can pull respectable numbers as well.  Limbo can annihilate everything everywhere.  When it comes to buffers, there're tons of them, and they all work differently for different damage dealers.  Some work way better with certain damage dealers than the go to buffers ever could.  Excal with a flash accelerant ember?  Amazing together.  None of these things need to scale infinitely to work really well in the meta farm, or even at sortie 3 or kuva flood and beyond.  They may cap out at 150, or 200, or 250.  That doesn't make em bad, and in many cases simply changes what they're used for.  Just because some weirdo puts on an adult diaper and a IV drip so they can play 10 hours of continuous defense using an obscure, infinitely-scaling ability combination that they conjured out of the necronomicon doesn't mean that that's the only skill set in the game that's objectively good.

Finally there's the concept of a single-role player in a team.  I really don't understand how this is still a concept amongst players in this game.  This isn't WoW.  Everyone has access to the same guns and focus schools and mods, and all of their frames are designed with multiple functions in mind - functions that can be used simultaneously.  The ONLY frame I can think of that has literally only 1 singular ability is Limbo - banish all the stuff and things.  But, let's look at frost.  He's the epitome of the endless defense meta.  It doesn't matter what damage abilities you bring, what buffers, what CP leech, every team wants to bring a frosts infinitely-scaling, area-denying snow globe.  But that's not all frost does, and in fact you could say that zephyr can keep a cryopod just as protected against ranged attackers.  Frost is also very much a CC, a debuffer, and a bit of a damage dealer.  He can also turn into a buffer for some damage abilities and all guns.  To say he's only filling the role of "protect the pod" is very narrow-minded and short sighted.  To say every player is only filling a singular roll within a team is like saying you only need a single gun, never mind secondary or melee.  Surely those other weapons aren't good at doing something your primary isn't particularly suited for.  Perhaps chewing through nully bubbles, or sniping osprey, or rag-dolling and knocking back a dangerous enemy who's gotten too close..  In the case of the EV and equinox combo, you might say EV was just there to provide energy, since an EV build completely destroys all of trins other abilities.  However, that's ignoring the fact that the EV was the root source for all the damage done by the equinox.  They'd have had to kill enemies with their bare hands in order to charge Maim if they didn't have the EV.  So who was the damage dealer?  Wasn't Equinox the buffer?  She probably had provoke up to buff the EV's damage among other things.  Then there's another team that did 150 waves of D like 2 weeks ago.  I believe it was that doge streamer dude.  They brought frost, loki, nova and banshee, with no scaling damage whatsoever.  "Oh but sonar scales infinitely high!"  No, it doesn't.  It buffs your crit damage and stacks with itself.  It can buff your damage up to the game's damage cap, but it doesn't scale off of enemy health or change in any way based on the scale of the enemies you're facing.  If anything, it gets more and more costly to use the higher and higher level the enemies become, since stacking it through augment kills gets slower and slower.  You could say radiant disarm has scaling damage, assuming the enemies actually land some blows on each other while they're primed, frozen, and getting shot by the players.  Anyways, all 4 frames on that team had some form of CC that they could use, 2 of them used damage buff abilities that I know of (dunno about freeze force), and the team used at least 2 CCs every wave - molecular prime and radiant disarm; 3 if you count the freezing knock back of snow globe.  So, on both teams, putting up fresh records only weeks apart in what's considered the gold standard of Warframe, the lines between team roles are blurred, muddled at best.  Everyone's doing varying degrees of CC, damage, and buffing all at once. 

Then there's oberon.  Yeah, he's not perfect, and he could use some tweaks.  But, he's hardly as worthless as people make him out to be.  A properly built oberon, played right, can easily solo sortie 3 or carry a group of belligerent ignoramuses through it.  (Rad hazards anyone?)  I'd say, his big problem isn't so much a design issue as it is the fact that the places where he really really excels aren't commonly visited.  It's like saying cops are worthless in my town cuz there's barely any crime...  well, just you wait...

[(PSN)Darth-Escar]

52 minutes ago, TheDefenestrater said:

jfc.  Half the people in this thread just keep embodying everything wrong with the people the OP is talking about.  Let's talk about a few things that many people in this thread are getting completely wrong.

Where is this guy's reward?

Even though it's a wall of text, there are lots of good points in there.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

18 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Way too often, I see people judging weapons and warframes without a lot or any usage with them. Last night, for example, I argued with a guy about Zephyr, and he didn't even reach 1mil EXP with her, while I had over 8x more than him. What annoys me even more is when people do the same with Oberon, while I have actually hundreds of times more experience using him. In those cases, I'm usually insulted for that, my offers to show them how good her is in-game are declined, my offers to do the same with videos are declined, or I'm just ignored.

What I'm wondering is why is this so common. Common enough for me to experience multiple times per day, even. (I've recently been testing Nezha, who I think is quite similar to Oberon, and I'm enjoying him more, only because my allies are a lot more peaceful with me when I use him. I'm not pressured nearly as much or insulted when I stat underperforming.)

Experience while important in it's own right only takes you so far.  No one needs to play that much zephyr to understand why she's bad.  That being said people shouldn't be shaming you for your choices especially if said choices are not hampering the mission.  I get people want efficiency when pubbing to make sure things go as smooth as possible.  But if they wanted that they should be running with a dedicated team and not randoms.  And that's also assuming the people using said meta equipment will actually be decent with it.

Zeyphr only brings her 3 to the table.  the first 2 abilities are useless in damage and cc and outclassed by standard parkour.  Her ultimate isn't consistent and makes enemies much harder to hit when they are effected by it.  there are much better cc abilities.  Nothing is particularly wrong with oberon.  He's just a bit too complex for most and imo his huge diversity means he's not really good at anything.  Which I guess would be the reason why people prefer other frames who specialize in something that he does.

I don't think the community likes or dislikes nezha.  I don't see anything particularly wrong with him.  As for saryn it's because a lot of people are still salty over the rework.  When she's better in everyway now.  My only issues with her is how much energy she eats and her being a lil less tanky.  If they decreased energy cost some and bumped her armor by 10 I think she'd be perfect.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

1 hour ago, TheDefenestrater said:

jfc.  Half the people in this thread just keep embodying everything wrong with the people the OP is talking about.  Let's talk about a few things that many people in this thread are getting completely wrong.

For starters, a lot of people can level a frame, maybe even forma it once or twice, and still have no idea how to properly build or play it.  "Oh I just have to look at stats and I know enough to make a judgement on it" is a load of garbage.  Stats don't tell you anything 99% of the time.  There's very rarely any info available about the underlying mechanics of abilities and how they function.  People say "body count doesn't work for Exalted Blade".  That's false.  It does work, you just have to know how to use it properly to gain the benefit of it.  A lot of people think wukong is a terrible tank because using a bunch of armor and health mods doesn't do crap for him.  In reality, wukong is arguably one of the strongest tanks in the game when used by a player who knows how to toggle defy on and off, and has built him properly around high duration.  Can anyone tell me how to calculate the EHP for someone that's completely invulnerable to literally everything?  Another example is mag and her magnetize.  People get mad that their bullets get sucked into magnetize and they "do no damage"    They also claim magnetize does flat damage.  These things are all wrong.  Every bullet that hits magnetize gets directed to the center and will hit the first target it comes to, punching through if able.  The damage it does is added to the ticking damage AND to the explosion damage of the magnetize.  (You do realize magnetize explodes for LAWLZ damage in a stupid huge range, right?)  Not only this, but the enemy bullets (which scale just like their health) also get added to the damage of the magnetize because enemies are dumb and shoot themselves inside it.  That's MORE scaling damage.  Yay!  So, no, mag doesn't have 1-button-brokenly-scaling damage anymore, like some other frames still do (equinox anyone?), however she still very much scales, and can still take down very high level enemies with ease, while also providing CC, cover, and other fun goodies (zenurik + energize + Gpull still works great).  At the same time, not everyone has tried every build possible with the frames they've formed such concrete opinions of.  I've seen nova "mains" with no clue how to do a speed build, no clue how to use AMD augment for mobile cover, no clue how to max an AMD and use it to destroy anything from behind cover, no comprehension of the team utility value of wormholes...  The only thing going through their head is "I press 4".  Players who've actually been playing this game for a long time and get good at a wide variety of frames and builds understand that there is always another way to build something to great effect and likely for purposes they'd never tried or thought of.  So, everyone making arguments about any frame based on "they know all they need to know about it" are full of it.

Then there's the concept of infinite scaling itself and it's merit as a measure of quality in the game.  A record on Mot (i think it was mot) was set recently using equinox with an EV trin, a frost for CC and protection, and a 4th guy no one cared about.  Anyways, I didn't pay attention to the details of how far they went, it was 150+ waves of void Defense.  The take home info was how.  EV does scaling damage that's a percentage of enemy health, based on power strength.  A good EV build should be able to kill just about anything with no more than a handful of EV and WOL casts.  Maim basically copies the health of enemies killed in its radius and duplicates that into damage shot back at everyone when it's released, scaled by power str.  So, all they did was EV a few heavy guys within maims radius and then release the maim to pretty much annihilate the whole map, regardless of the enemy level.  Rinse and repeat till you die of boredom.  In case you're curious, you can do this same damage profile solo with a corrosive pox, covert lethality, and a rest / maim build.  You'll wipe out entire rooms at once after using CL on a handful of sleeping heavies, no matter the level.  You'll just run into scaling problems without stripping armor with the pox.  Anyways, this whole thing took the team like 7 hours or something absurd.  Their mothers were proud (go outside and play).  The point is though that these feats of mind-boggling boredom are total outliers in regards to the game itself and honestly do more to draw attention to the broken enemy scaling, broken damage system, and exploitative tactics than anything else.  The only reason these things aren't going to get nerfed into the ground (again in trinity's case... she's been nerfed like a dozen times and she's still pretty OP) is because the vast majority of the player base isn't using these things to bypass time gates and ignore purchasable conveniences.  Remember peacemaker, greedy pull, radial javelin, polarize, etc?  Those things became part of farming metas that allowed players to make a whole lot of progress in very little time and they were fairly quickly nerfed out of a job.  No one cares that Maim scales infinitely with enemies killed in it because it takes a smart group comp, and a bit of work to fully capitalize on.  That's not gonna totally outclass anything else at a meta farm level, which is where this game actually happens.  And when it comes to the meta level of farming crap, you'd be surprised that a wide array of frames and abilities will work pretty much equally well.  For instance, Mag can out dmg saryn on bere with ease.  Nezha can too.  Rhino can pull respectable numbers as well.  Limbo can annihilate everything everywhere.  When it comes to buffers, there're tons of them, and they all work differently for different damage dealers.  Some work way better with certain damage dealers than the go to buffers ever could.  Excal with a flash accelerant ember?  Amazing together.  None of these things need to scale infinitely to work really well in the meta farm, or even at sortie 3 or kuva flood and beyond.  They may cap out at 150, or 200, or 250.  That doesn't make em bad, and in many cases simply changes what they're used for.  Just because some weirdo puts on an adult diaper and a IV drip so they can play 10 hours of continuous defense using an obscure, infinitely-scaling ability combination that they conjured out of the necronomicon doesn't mean that that's the only skill set in the game that's objectively good.

Finally there's the concept of a single-role player in a team.  I really don't understand how this is still a concept amongst players in this game.  This isn't WoW.  Everyone has access to the same guns and focus schools and mods, and all of their frames are designed with multiple functions in mind - functions that can be used simultaneously.  The ONLY frame I can think of that has literally only 1 singular ability is Limbo - banish all the stuff and things.  But, let's look at frost.  He's the epitome of the endless defense meta.  It doesn't matter what damage abilities you bring, what buffers, what CP leech, every team wants to bring a frosts infinitely-scaling, area-denying snow globe.  But that's not all frost does, and in fact you could say that zephyr can keep a cryopod just as protected against ranged attackers.  Frost is also very much a CC, a debuffer, and a bit of a damage dealer.  He can also turn into a buffer for some damage abilities and all guns.  To say he's only filling the role of "protect the pod" is very narrow-minded and short sighted.  To say every player is only filling a singular roll within a team is like saying you only need a single gun, never mind secondary or melee.  Surely those other weapons aren't good at doing something your primary isn't particularly suited for.  Perhaps chewing through nully bubbles, or sniping osprey, or rag-dolling and knocking back a dangerous enemy who's gotten too close..  In the case of the EV and equinox combo, you might say EV was just there to provide energy, since an EV build completely destroys all of trins other abilities.  However, that's ignoring the fact that the EV was the root source for all the damage done by the equinox.  They'd have had to kill enemies with their bare hands in order to charge Maim if they didn't have the EV.  So who was the damage dealer?  Wasn't Equinox the buffer?  She probably had provoke up to buff the EV's damage among other things.  Then there's another team that did 150 waves of D like 2 weeks ago.  I believe it was that doge streamer dude.  They brought frost, loki, nova and banshee, with no scaling damage whatsoever.  "Oh but sonar scales infinitely high!"  No, it doesn't.  It buffs your crit damage and stacks with itself.  It can buff your damage up to the game's damage cap, but it doesn't scale off of enemy health or change in any way based on the scale of the enemies you're facing.  If anything, it gets more and more costly to use the higher and higher level the enemies become, since stacking it through augment kills gets slower and slower.  You could say radiant disarm has scaling damage, assuming the enemies actually land some blows on each other while they're primed, frozen, and getting shot by the players.  Anyways, all 4 frames on that team had some form of CC that they could use, 2 of them used damage buff abilities that I know of (dunno about freeze force), and the team used at least 2 CCs every wave - molecular prime and radiant disarm; 3 if you count the freezing knock back of snow globe.  So, on both teams, putting up fresh records only weeks apart in what's considered the gold standard of Warframe, the lines between team roles are blurred, muddled at best.  Everyone's doing varying degrees of CC, damage, and buffing all at once. 

Then there's oberon.  Yeah, he's not perfect, and he could use some tweaks.  But, he's hardly as worthless as people make him out to be.  A properly built oberon, played right, can easily solo sortie 3 or carry a group of belligerent ignoramuses through it.  (Rad hazards anyone?)  I'd say, his big problem isn't so much a design issue as it is the fact that the places where he really really excels aren't commonly visited.  It's like saying cops are worthless in my town cuz there's barely any crime...  well, just you wait...

It was my understanding that you don't want high duration because that means longer invincibility which messes with your energy gain from rage (wukong)

[Thebel]

7 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

It was my understanding that you don't want high duration because that means longer invincibility which messes with your energy gain from rage (wukong)

The energy drain is so low with even defy and primal on it basically doesn't matter if you aren't gaining energy for however long anyways.

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

It was my understanding that you don't want high duration because that means longer invincibility which messes with your energy gain from rage (wukong)

True, you still have to eventually take some damage for rage to give you energy.  The benefit of higher duration, however, is that the channeled costs of defy and primal fury are a lot less and the invulnerability period is much longer.  In the mean time, while you're immune to damage, you can recoupe whatever bit of health you're lacking through any number of healing sources, giving you a maxed out health pool to fuel rage with.

Edited December 4, 2016 by Guest

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

1 minute ago, TheDefenestrater said:

No you still have to eventually take some damage for rage to give you energy.  The benefit of higher duration is that the channeled costs of defy and primal fury are a lot less and the invulnerability period is much longer.  In the mean time, while you're immune to damage, you can recoupe whatever bit of health you're lacking through any number of healing sources, giving you a maxed out health pool to fuel rage with.

I see.  Well.  Just further proves I shouldn't be listening to the youtuber brozeme (i think how it's spelled) for most advice.  He really doesn't seem reliable opinion wise only number wise.  I prefer aggp for my build making for the most part.

[RoboticApplesWithLasers]

Who cares If they can't solo they must be bad in the first place.

[Evanescent]

When I criticise a frame I do it only when I have either played it, played with it, or been affected by its playstyle. 

When I do criticise a frame, I do it to make it better. This does not mean that it's not good, but that it could be a lot better.

My main criticism of Oberon is that he doesn't live up to the paladin tank he was hyped up to be. His abilities shouldn't directly compete with other frames for effectiveness. They should be unique and give him an edge no-one else has. 

I also suggest how I think they can be improved. For example, I think hallowed ground should move in an area around Broberon, not only would be more interesting gameplay-wise, but also make it cooler since he purifies everything he touches! His Renewal works against itself by not being able to kept on. Why can't I keep it on, and have it heal me when I take damage? It Bladestorm can be kept on infinitely and mark for as long as one pleases, surely I can have the same for Renewal? Desecrate too is a 'turn on and forget' ability. There's nothing wrong with that! He also deserves buffs in terms of stats, to better befit his role of a tank. Etc.

I do however agree that one should always test before talking. The ash rework is a fine example of kneejeerk reactions and bandwagoneering going around. It has its flaws, and I don't agree with it fully, but I did play before I talked. It should be the case fore everyone interested in giving feedback.

[DatDarkOne]

20 hours ago, DogManDan said:

Also the issue stems really from "large & popular" channels who over the years have put everyone who follows in a certain mindset; if you don't play at max with the meta or what they believe to be correct based on some hypothetical calculated mathematically setup mod scheme than anything else is going to be wrong. I will never give up my fight against people who are like that instead of just learning how to actually play something first and not just by a calculation!

I believe it's a combination of this ^^ to be correct and the personal preference thing.  For me it more personal preference and aesthetics. 

[(PSN)lhbuch]

+1 for the OP. Lots of threads asking for nerfs or changes doesnt even make sense.

[Thebel]

2 hours ago, Evanescent said:

I do however agree that one should always test before talking. The ash rework is a fine example of kneejeerk reactions and bandwagoneering going around. It has its flaws, and I don't agree with it fully, but I did play before I talked. It should be the case fore everyone interested in giving feedback.

There are somethings that are obvious enough that you don't need to test, like blade storm is a bad rework, their goal was to make it more interactive, but then only went half way by making it manual targeting but still leaving the part you have to watch a cut scene. It goes from having no control to "oh I have control and pick my targets? Wait I lost control again?"

[DatDarkOne]

10 hours ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Nope. In defense, you only want one Frost or a Loki + Vauban.

Not disagreeing with you.  In sortie Defense, Frost's Snow Globe isn't as effective because of the moving defense target.  Well at least not how they are normally used.  Depending on the sortie level and faction, that defense target can be incredibly annoying to keep alive.  One combo that does work very well in that situation is Cloak Arrow and Avalanche.  There are other methods that also work well.  Blindly following the traditional meta can usually lead to extra frustration in cases like this.  Not saying that you do.  Just adding additional experience/observation for the topic.  :D