Rhino 8.3: Feedback Thread

[Thaumatos]

Iron Skin is still bad. Seriously, just give us old Iron Skin and add some cooldown to prevent spam and that's it! Optional its cost may be increased to 65 power.

Honest to god answer is more than likely people internally during dueling testing:

"OMG Rhino's Iron Skin is just too OP for duels man!"

"Duel me! No Rhinos!"

"Well I would have won if you didn't use IS"

"Rhino's skin is for nubs"

"Real men use Slash Dash"

"How come Frost doesn't get Frost Armor?"

*E*Space*E*Space*E*Space*E*Space*E* "Why can't I trip you!?"

So...they nerfed Iron Skin.

Edited July 5, 2013 by Thaumatos

[Tormented]

Thank you DE. Yes i agree iron skin is a tricky skills. Removing the time makes alot of sense indeed. Since it already has a damage cap. With the timer would just make its efficiency lower. Now that there's a buff in dmg cap, it can take hits longer for mobs up to lvl 40. As for crowd, i agree no warframes should be able to take crowd dmg that is why warframes are some given with CC powers. I've played rhino since its out and after nerf and now buffed and changed, i'll still never complain about it because its a game that is constantly progressing. For those who like to cry out about nerfs and skill changes, go play other frames. INSTEAD of complaining, i rather give credits to the devs and beta testers that spend lots of hardwork and effort, thinking ways to polish and change the skills of every frames. There's no best frame. Its just how you utilise them to its highest potential in co-op online or solo. That is why being creative and thoughtful would result in a different style of a particular frame.

For example, since this is a rhino topic, ill share some of the playstyle i use with rhino.
- For defense mission, I tried the pure CC build to protect the pod. Tactic used? Fragor/Reaper prime with max reach jump attack spammin at choke points, ultimate if crowds get to close to pods. As you can see there's no iron skin used as this is a pure CCing tactic. Your role is to keep the enemies crowd controlled by knocking them down. As for those who are attacking you from further range thats when you use iron skin or rhino charge back and forth to get ride of em.

See how this works? I dont really depend on iron skin unless i really need to regen my shields. keeping enemy knock down is already considered like a invulnerability kinda mechanisms. Like in pvp, if you're knocked down. There's pretty much nothing you can do to your challenger. See the difference?

[3XT3RM1NATUS]

Honest to god answer is more than likely people internally during dueling testing:

"OMG Rhino's Iron Skin is just too OP for duels man!"

"Duel me! No Rhinos!"

"Well I would have won if you didn't use IS"

"Rhino's skin is for nubs"

"Real men use Slash Dash"

"How come Frost doesn't get Frost Armor?"

*E*Space*E*Space*E*Space*E*Space*E* "Why can't I trip you!?"

So...they nerfed Iron Skin.

 

Balancing PvE game for duels which are made just for fun is BS.

[OOLuigiOo]

I want to punch the ground again or spam an aoe at 50 energy.

[SlowMoMo]

if you guys actually watched the god damm live streams they clearly state in one of the most recent ones, that they dont want to make a warframe for a specific class. such as only tank warframe or only support warframe they are trying to mix it up so they can make other warframes with some similiar attributes. unless you guys want only a few warframes then dont complain. thats why you see some warframes skills are similar but not completely the same.

Does Scott (as a designer) really think that a flat cap scales? It feels like Steve came up with a (IMO pretty terrible) quick fix to the previous (IMO pretty terrible) nerf to Iron Skin and now Scott is fixated on it as the only solution.

 

It is terrible because it doesn't scale. It is also inconsistent with powers like Link and Snow Globe which provide 100% damage immunity for the duration.

 

At the very least, Scott as the designer should be consistent with how powers scale. If he can't do that... why is he the lead designer?

First off who are you to question why he is a lead designer? i think SCOTT a dam good one who gives the forums enough attention . obviously, you haven't used rhino enough to appreciate his skills. are you comparing iron skin to link and snow globe? for trinity she is fragile as hell unless you link to a strong enemy its not super useful, mob wise not even close to what iron skin can do. and after you run out of energy what happens? DEAD DEAD DEAD. Snow globe 100% immunity from the OUTSIDE not from within!!!, and as compared to iron skin its NOT EVEN MOBILE.you can't compare skills with different assets at all. infact with the new iron skin its more energy efficient thatn snow globe or link. seems to me you are only running your mouth about stuff you don't even know

 

 

 

[Thaumatos]

Balancing PvE game for duels which are made just for fun is BS.

Those aren't real quotes btw, I mean as far as I know...who knows some of them were probably said.

My point was that there really was no other reason than dueling. Scott hasn't provided an answer other than "some" people doing "some" things was too powerful. Yeah? You mean dueling? The entire time Rhino has been out you didn't have a problem with any of the stuff that frame was capable of until the patch that dueling was added. Dueling had absolutely NO influence whatsoever...come on.

[Thaumatos]

Snow globe 100% immunity from the OUTSIDE not from within!!!, and as compared to iron skin its NOT EVEN MOBILE.you can't compare skills with different assets at all. infact with the new iron skin its more energy efficient thatn snow globe or link. seems to me you are only running your mouth about stuff you don't even know

1200 damage absorbed for 50 energy is more efficient than a ball of immunity with an infinite possible amount of damage absorbed?

Clearly math escapes you, sir.

[Grodgen]

After some testing.. my thougts about the changes...

 

Did Xini, did Roar + Stomp combo with focus mod on Ancients.. up to Wave 10 they died instantly. 800 damage seems like a nerf compared to radial blast but it now ignores enemy armor. So basically on low waves Stomp kills everything... in later waves it cc's everything that survives. Sounds good but compared to Radial Blast for 75 Energy that knocked down ..imho too expensive...even more regarding that Rhino can use every single Power mod to some extend (I run streamline, continuity, stretch, focus, redirection and vitality and dont want to miss out on any of them..therefor no flow and only 150 energy which worked fine before but doesn't anymore).

 

Iron Skin is still.. meh.. 1200 flat absorb is useless in higher levels even with recasts (energy problems.. see above). What i like to see is that Iron Skin converts shields into health for it's duration (which should be reinstated at 15 seconds), adding it to your base health and increases rhinos armor value by an amount so the armor would equal a damage reduction of 50% without more mods (like steel fiber & focus). Damage taken would be substracted first of the added shield value and base health last. After Iron skin ends Rhino will have full shields and Iron Skin will have a 5 second cooldown until it can be used again to prevent abuse.. during that time the taunt will still be active. With this change one could make Rhino really tanky if enough mods are picked to do so and push his damage reduction to embers level with way more effective HP (Full tank build would be Redirection, Vitality, Focus, Steel Fiber, continuity and Iron Skin of course... taking away more than half of rhinos slots and therefor limiting his damaging capability).

 

Roar is.. ok.. not fitting for Rhino but awesome since it increases ALL damage, Guns, Melee and Abilities alike. Range indicators when cast and buff icons or viduals would be nice though.

Iron Skin: NO... just no. Its fine.

[SlowMoMo]

I want to punch the ground again or spam an aoe at 50 energy.

i miss it too but the new rhino stomp is still very good once you use it often it will be very appealing :D

[fatpig84]

Iron skin

Still nope.

Doesn't last against level 80 mobs and you are still a walking shoot me sign.

It would be good if it DID not mass aggro, but unfortunately it does. 

So yeah.

 

Roar

At first it seems weak when compared to Sonar, but from what I seen, it affects weapons with DOTs and splash damage like the Acrid/Torid and Ogris. THIS IS DEVASTATING. I repeat OMG, this is devastating.

 

If you want to solo games with acrid and the like which cannot aim for crit damage, use a RHINO !

But don't bother casting iron skin since it won't protect you from the self damage, use that energy for moar Roar !

But yeah we need some indicator whether the buff is on and maybe slightly longer duration or less energy cost.

 

 

New Rhino Stomp

A mix bag for this one, I know many players like the 2 second invulnerability Radial blast give and it's high damage with decent radius and knock down.

 

The damage has being scaled down now but added with the nice Stomp effect.

However at 100 energy, Radial blast fans will sorely miss their number 3.

Edited July 5, 2013 by fatpig84

[SlowMoMo]

1200 damage absorbed for 50 energy is more efficient than a ball of immunity with an infinite possible amount of damage absorbed?

Clearly math escapes you, sir.

So sitting and camping in a ball is better than moving around with extra 1200 dmg absorb that is spammable? 

 

clearly logic escapes you, sir

[3XT3RM1NATUS]

So sitting and camping in a ball is better than moving around with extra 1200 dmg absorb that is spammable? 

 

clearly logic escapes you, sir

Yes, it is for like figtning 2 factions of 3. Iron Skin only used for high level Infested defense and boss tanking. Though boss tanking is still possible, playing Rhino vs high level mobs just makes no sense.

[fatpig84]

So sitting and camping in a ball is better than moving around with extra 1200 dmg absorb that is spammable? 

 

clearly logic escapes you, sir

 

 

Dude 50 energy is not spammable on a Rhino. 

If you are Frost , i say hell yeah, it's cheap (thanks to the - slot) but not on Rhino.

Rhino's Polarities are all defense, they are NOT making his powers more efficient unless you forma him a few times.

 

And said ball actually debuffs enemies that walk into it as well. 

Edited July 5, 2013 by fatpig84

[letir]

So sitting and camping in a ball is better than moving around with extra 1200 dmg absorb that is spammable? 

 

clearly logic escapes you, sir

Camping in GodBall much, MUCH better than moving around with... oh, they break it... spam... they break it again... spam...

[storyseeker]

How about make the iron skin damage cap from rhino total shield? i think 50/100/150/200 % of total shield is quite good solution. So the stronger rhino the stronger IS he has

[Grodgen]

He isn't a tank.

Frost is a tank, Rhino is an assistant in the best way possible.

1. He can get around the battlefield quickly with Rush and Rhino Charge.

2. He can keep the heat off your teammates and lure enemies into a single concentrated spot.

3. Damage buff. Freaking awesome.

4. Radial blast of 800 damage, and any enemy that DOESN'T die instantly is stunned. Bosses included.

Whats with you people and saying he isn't a tank... He is an OFFENSIVE tank for those that can't read. His Iron Skin ability CREATES AGGRO. He has the ability to ABSORB damage from enemies. He also buffs the party. Sounds a lot like a... oh a PALADIN from tabletop D&D...

I think you people need to get out more..

[ShadowGhosting]

Here are my test results from testing the new IS and Rhino Stomp.

No focus/fast deflection equipped. Max shield was 870. Tested at Cerberus, Pluto.

 

First, you can not recast IS if it's already up to replenish the shield. You can recast as soon it runs out, taking minor damage to shields. (~lvl50 enemies)

 

Measured in Burst rounds. Thats from start shooting, to stop shooting. Burst Round lasts for about 2.5 seconds.

VS MOA(~45) - 1200 IS shield lasted for 2 burst rounds

VS MOA(~45) - No IS active. 870 Shield lasted for 3 burst rounds. 4 burst rounds if you include shield regen.

VS MOA(~45) - 0 shield at start of IS. IS ended before shields recovered to 600.

 

VS Corpus Tech(~50) - 1200 IS shield lasted less than 1 second.

VS Corpus Tech(~50) - No IS active. 870 Shield survived for longer.

VS Corpus Tech(~50) - 0 shield at start of IS. IS ended before shields even started to recover. I died.

 

That ends my testing of IS.

 

As for Rhino Stomp. One shots everything at that level. Did not test on Corpus Tech.

 

In conclusion, Rhino Stomp is just fine outside of high-wave defense and possibly Void 3. As for IS, only effective in any level where it wouldn't be needed to begin with. Did not test Roar since I was solo. But using Rhino Stomp will always be better than Roar at everything other than high-wave defense since it instantly kills everything.

[SlowMoMo]

 

Dude 50 energy is not spammable on a Rhino. 

If you are Frost , i say hell yeah, it's cheap (thanks to the - slot) but not on Rhino.

Rhino's Polarities are all defense, they are NOT making his powers more efficient unless you forma him a few times.

 

And said ball actually debuffs enemies that walk into it as well.

 

yeah rhino iron skin is spammable. just like frost is. the only difference is the use. snow globe you camp. iron skin you move. just different styles you are forced to play. and forma shouldn't be a problem cuz most higher level plays end up forma their warframes anyways. they both have their advantages and disadvantages. i throw in a flow and focus on my rhino and it does fine. with the right play style its on par if not alittle worse than snow globe

[Thaumatos]

Here's the way you should fix Iron Skin.

Apparently Ember's Overheat is perfectly balanced:

* 50 Energy

* 70% Damage reduction (Increased to 91% with Focus)

* 100 Damage per second AoE

* 13 Second duration (Increased to ~17s with Continuity)

* Immune to Disruption

* Not Immune to Knockdown/Stun

And Frost's Snow Globe is also balanced:

* 50 Energy

* 30 Second duration (Increased to 39 with Continuity)

* Radius of 10m (Increased to 14.5 with Stretch)

* Slowed (Frozen) mobs inside the globe

* Constant immunity from outside fire/projectiles

So, seeing as how these are the two most powerful influences in defense currently available, let's balance Iron Skin to the same degree. I think the skill should look something like this:

Iron Skin:

* 50 Energy

* 10 Second duration (increased to 13 with Continuity)

* 70% Damage reduction from melee (increased to 91% with Focus)

* Attracts nearby ranged fire

* Reflects all projectile attacks; blocks allies ranged projectiles as well

* Immune to Knockdown/Stun but not Disruption

I would say that's pretty fair. Not as offensive as Ember, not as "area wide" as Frost. Just enough personal defense to withstand a tough fight longer than any other frame without a "God Mode".

[Jubikus]

i think iron skin is meant to be what it is if you want to tank tons of regular mobs and take hits pretty well you have a rhino with iron skin if you want something to tank really high level doods that hit for a ton use a Trinity its a trade off. No warframe is supposed to excell in all areas.

[Solanius]

To point out the Rhino in the room, we really do need a visual indicator in Rhino Roar. I think it's around 10 secs duration but I can only tell based on the power in use message.
 

[Thaumatos]

So sitting and camping in a ball is better than moving around with extra 1200 dmg absorb that is spammable? 

 

clearly logic escapes you, sir

Re-read what you've wrote. You're not arguing the pros and cons, you've made a blanket statement that Iron Skin is more energy efficient for the damage reduction.

And now, you've just proven that your logic is as bad as your math.

Edited July 5, 2013 by Thaumatos

[fatpig84]

Here are my test results from testing the new IS and Rhino Stomp.

No focus/fast deflection equipped. Max shield was 870. Tested at Cerberus, Pluto.

 

First, you can not recast IS if it's already up to replenish the shield. You can recast as soon it runs out, taking minor damage to shields. (~lvl50 enemies)

 

Measured in Burst rounds. Thats from start shooting, to stop shooting. Burst Round lasts for about 2.5 seconds.

VS MOA(~45) - 1200 IS shield lasted for 2 burst rounds

VS MOA(~45) - No IS active. 870 Shield lasted for 3 burst rounds. 4 burst rounds if you include shield regen.

VS MOA(~45) - 0 shield at start of IS. IS ended before shields recovered to 600.

 

VS Corpus Tech(~50) - 1200 IS shield lasted less than 1 second.

VS Corpus Tech(~50) - No IS active. 870 Shield survived for longer.

VS Corpus Tech(~50) - 0 shield at start of IS. IS ended before shields even started to recover. I died.

 

That ends my testing of IS.

 

As for Rhino Stomp. One shots everything at that level. Did not test on Corpus Tech.

 

In conclusion, Rhino Stomp is just fine outside of high-wave defense and possibly Void 3. As for IS, only effective in any level where it wouldn't be needed to begin with. Did not test Roar since I was solo. But using Rhino Stomp will always be better than Roar at everything other than high-wave defense since it instantly kills everything.

 

Thanks for running the test.

I guess I will stop slotting IS for the time being still.

[Jubikus]

And i would really like some sort of way to know when my Roar is down hell even just telling us how long it lasts would be nice

[GottFaust]

Here's the way you should fix Iron Skin.Apparently Ember's Overheat is perfectly balanced:* 50 Energy* 70% Damage reduction (Increased to 91% with Focus)* 100 Damage per second AoE* 13 Second duration (Increased to ~17s with Continuity)* Immune to Disruption* Not Immune to Knockdown/StunAnd Frost's Snow Globe is also balanced:* 50 Energy* 30 Second duration (Increased to 39 with Continuity)* Radius of 10m (Increased to 14.5 with Stretch)* Slowed (Frozen) mobs inside the globe* Constant immunity from outside fire/projectilesSo, seeing as how these are the two most powerful influences in defense currently available, let's balance Iron Skin to the same degree. I think the skill should look something like this:Iron Skin:* 50 Energy* 10 Second duration (increased to 13 with Continuity)* 70% Damage reduction from melee (increased to 91% with Focus)* Attracts nearby ranged fire* Reflects all projectile attacks; blocks allies ranged projectiles as well* Immune to Knockdown/Stun but not DisruptionI would say that's pretty fair. Not as offensive as Ember, not as "area wide" as Frost. Just enough personal defense to withstand a tough fight longer than any other frame without a "God Mode".

They already tried that version of iron skin, the forum fallout was on an epic scale.

With a Rage mod or a team full of energy siphons, IS can maintain a 100% up time in Xini up to wave 40 by my testing.