Rhino 8.3: Feedback Thread

[Kracken]

DE sometimes should play the game themselves so they can tell what they should do with the op/overnerfed skills

[SmokinDice]

Just played some defense missions and Rhino was basically turned into a caster frame that only casts his fourth ability and you need a lot of energy for that.

 

Did cast Charge and Roar a few times but on the higher waves i wasnt going to spend any energy on anything outside of Stomp.

This dude now really needs flow/streamline

 and thats exactly the problem.. you NEED them now.. before it was like.. yea its nice, maybe try it out.

 

WITH flow it doesnt feel that bad.. until Im am trying to sprint in slowmo cuz i needed to get rid of rush for it.

but still the 800 dmg hurts when you see 12 mobs flying around with 5% hp ...

[Kracken]

 and thats exactly the problem.. you NEED them now.. before it was like.. yea its nice, maybe try it out.

 

WITH flow it doesnt feel that bad.. until Im am trying to sprint in slowmo cuz i needed to get rid of rush for it.

but still the 800 dmg hurts when you see 12 mobs flying around with 5% hp ...

i had never used Rush and never will on rhino ...

[chuuburg]

Rhino stomp is glitched, it 1 hits anyone in dueling room, 1k shields, 600hp and rank 8 armor on a frost.

[SlowMoMo]

DE sometimes should play the game themselves so they can tell what they should do with the op/overnerfed skills

i think they do but not often. i understand where you are coming from but you gotta understand that they are still in beta which mean lots of work. they have to add content, more warframes, come up with things to keep us occupied, and tend to other problems/ complaints about warframe.

[Sirsnapsalot]

I like this new Rhino!

[r0ckwolf]

we need a visual clue to know when roar is applied, some sort of glowing aura! Or a buff bar that is can be toggled on or off in the menus.

[Grodgen]

i had never used Rush and never will on rhino ...

Why? Its the second most OP skill in the game.

[SmokinDice]

make iron skin look like the mass effect tech armor! with changeable color

 

for roar do the same with the equipped weapon.

 

http://i27.tinypic.com/31276lf.jpg

Edited July 5, 2013 by SmokinDice

[CLoneArmY]

I appreciate the work, but Iron Skin is still way off. Yes, the old 40 seconds of invincibility was too much, but you can work around this.

 

We can't really do the old way and leave it. That was broken. But hard limits mean Rhino is super invincible at low levels (who needs this?) and at high levels he's useless (ONE shot will remove his iron skin entirely).

 

Options for things you can discuss at DE:

- set invincibility, unmodified by mods, only ranking up the ability. You've done this with other abilities, where some mods just don't work on some abilities. You can set invincibility to 2/4/6/8 seconds (numbers tweaked with testing).

- You can base Rhino's invuln on hits. He can take 5/10/15/20 hits without taking damage. You can cap the hits per frame, so even if he's hit with a shotty, it only counts as being hit a few times, not with all the pellets each. This would allow you to have no timed invuln, but also it works at all levels (it doesn't deplete faster if there are more enemies due to the hits per frame limit). Great vs snipers, still good vs everything else.

- Straight damage reduction similar to Ember's Overheat, but with different effects. Ember's trade off is heat damage and she has lower shields/hp/armoir than Rhino.

- making iron skin truly iron skin aka it increases his armor tremndously. Instead of increasing his HP, swap that out for armor. There's no invuln, but instead his base armor is changed. Currently Rhino has 150 armor. Iron Skin can give him base value increases, which means mods that affect armor also improve iron skin, something like 200/250/300/350, or whatever numbers work through testing. The effect is that he can take hits from most anyone for a while. If this seems too OP, then you can also decrease his movement speed by 20-50%, whatever works. I always expected to be slower when using iron skin anyway, so I don't think it would feel bad to slow down to become a real tank. Works in other games, such as mech games where you transform into defensive mode, but are way slower.

 

If you truly think Ember's Overheat is somehow equal or worse than Rhino's Iron Skin, I'm not sure what to say. And while I know you don't want to just have archetypes like tank, mage, etc, Rhino's speed and high base stats show he really is supposed to be a tank. However, if you don't think Rhino should be a tank, then I'm okay with that. You just made him invincible for the vast majority of the game except high level defense missions. Is that intentional?

is that mech game u mean is HAWKEN ?? that heavy mech than can transform into a slow-moving fortress-like thing (i got roketeer an brawler) haha....

as for DE, buff on iron skin still not enough !!!, for a hardcore player (me, n im sure there r more out there) that looking for challenge is by doing defense mission on high lvl map like pluto-outer terminus,which on wave 30s means 1 shot from corpus sniper can kill u/downed u instantly unless u're inside the mighty snowglobe. tried id w/ rhino b4 the patch w/ 990shield, and 450+ hp + iron skin (b4 patch w/ only 800dmg cap) and its still 1 shot KO,now its 1200 dmg cap, im sure it'll have the same result (no testing needed), which reminds me of some earlier DE saying that iron skin can/shuld/will be much usefull for helping a/or several teammate(s) in d front line.

so either make it 10 or 12second invulnerable then after that the 1200 dmg limit kicks in (or w/out this 1200 dmg limit is ok but w/ more time)

or this so called heaviest warframe will be played only for noob n beginners for starter mission, lower than lvl 50

we DONT want it to be permanent, only for it to be USEFUL !

[Optimum_Magic]

Ember will still be best choice for a tanky warframe when it comes to soaking up huge amounts of damage for a long period of time. 1200 damage soak without damage reduce will just pop in a second in T3 void runs vs. elites for example. Ember can stand in a Void laser for several seconds until her shields run out with overheat running.. then the sentinel shield recharge pops and ember still stands. Rhino will die in 3 seconds.

 

Imho give Ember the flat damage absorb in form of a overheat shield and give Rhino the Overheat mechanic (damage reduce) minus the close range damage aura but with the taunt. To really tank you need damage reduction and not a flat damage soak.. especially when surrounded by 10 taunted enemies but that is exactly the place where rhino should be... in the middle of things soaking damage from taunted enemies.

K her abilities are tanky, but what if your out of energy huh? ember only has 10.0 armor while rhino has 150.0!!!! how can you compare That!!! ON top of that, our shield is 450 on rank 30.. YOURS IS FRICKEN 300! HOW CAN YOU COMPARE SUCH FRAMES

[Troublechutor]

People keep talking about scaling with regard to level X mobs on some imaginary defense mission.

 

The defense missions are endless right?  The enemy critters will continue to progress as the wave numbers increase right?

 

Seems to me that there is going to be two caps on what defines the upper limit on what you can achieve there.

 

1. Statistical caps (eventually you are going to be one-shot by a creep if it can hit you at all, or it will one-shot the pod)

2. Skill cap (Even if Rhino were invincable, the player controlling it can only take it so far before the pod drops to IMBA creeps)

 

So, given the above.  There is theoretically an upper limit on what sorts of wave numbers can be reached with a given set of frames and perfect play.  It may surprise you to know that the Rhino may not be one of those frames that is able to make the final cut.  That does NOT mean that the rhino is worse than the ember for this task based soley on her % based resistance... it simply means that with a particular goal in mind, one frame with a particular skill set + perfect play will outshine all others at the absolute breaking point of the game mechanics.

 

Just because we have no personal community challenges beyond PVP and endless defense bragging rights, doesn't mean that the Rhino needs to be buffed to a place of prominance in those particular tasks.

 

PS : Iron skin has an aggro-taunt mechanism right?  If I couple this with Switch teleport (aggro follows rhino) and decoys, I could theoretically juggle endless waves of mobs and tickle them to death with a 2 rhino/ loki / Frost team right?

[Phoenix86]

lol i was just comparing Rhino Stomp against Miasma and... omg Rhino can compete with Saryn and even beat her!

 

212*4 dmg vs 800 dmg

 

10m radius vs 20m radius

 

Yes Saryn can use continuity to add an extra tick and does 48 more dmg... but Rhino now has Roar which boost his dmg to a whooping 1200 dmg!!

(not to mention he boosts also team's dmg)

 

At nuking: Rhino > Saryn LOL

[SirNerdsAlot5]

lol i was just comparing Rhino Stomp against Miasma and... omg Rhino can compete with Saryn and even beat her!

 

212*4 dmg vs 800 dmg

 

10m radius vs 20m radius

 

Yes Saryn can use continuity to add an extra tick and does 48 more dmg... but Rhino now has Roar which boost his dmg to a whooping 1200 dmg!!

(not to mention he boosts also team's dmg)

 

At nuking: Rhino > Saryn LOL

that Roar will boost Saryn too, so Rhino still loses

[Phoenix86]

that Roar will boost Saryn too, so Rhino still loses

 

what tells you i do it near a saryn or that i play with a saryn, given the frame alone Rhino brings more stuff to the table now u.u

 

PS: it has double the range, so double the treat/kills

[SirNerdsAlot5]

Alright so obviously haters gona hate and that's all I've seen in this "feedback" thread. However, I love the new Rhino as is. The only thing I would slightly change is just give Rhino skin 10% reduced damage since it attracts enemies. I was doing Eurassia and a small squad of Grinneer popped my Rhino skin at rank 2 (800 dmg sponge). So with 10% reduced damage taken, you can close the chapter on Rhino Skin and let people deal with it.

[SirNerdsAlot5]

what tells you i do it near a saryn or that i play with a saryn, given the frame alone Rhino brings more stuff to the table now u.u

 

PS: it has double the range, so double the treat/kills

Ummm 800 max damage vs 212 x 4 seconds (848). I'd say not....and I think one of her abilities armor ignores....that's a big deal.

[FatalionPanic-EGT-]

So I took the time to read so many posts here and figured there are so many different ideas of Rhino and it's role here that any designer will feel the pain trying to make it right for everyone.

 

There's

- Rhino = Tank so invincibility please

- Rhino = Offensive Brawler

- I never played Rhino but I'll talk about the numbers and descriptions

- Iron Skin or no Rhino

- Man Rhino is great now

- Rhino is bad now

- Wave 100+ balance please

- PvP OP nerf it please

 

I'll go ahead and try to put my personal emotions regarding Rhino aside here. I suggest you do the same.

 

Looking at the regular livestreams it has been stated already that in Warframe there is no straight role model of healer/tank/damage dealer like in your regular role playing game which makes Warframe special. And I approve.

(Please take your time to watch the Warframe livestreams http://www.twitch.tv/warframe if you need verification.)

 

Different play-styles and preferences however will most likely be in the minds of the Warframe players already since a lot of them have played games before. Warframe's approach is a difficult thing for players who are used to the standard roles and can be tricky to adapt to unless you realize that Warframe takes this different approach. Kind of semi-quoting this but this is DE is attempting to make any Warframe a good choice and not just a few so you can't say "That Warframe? Not worth playing don't get it" which would be sad - they're all worth playing.

 

End-game balance? Oh yes time to dismiss that claim - there is none.

Let's take the so called end-game endless defense: At a certain point you (and the pod) get 1-hit no matter how much reduction your defense offers (Ember) or how many shields you got - simple as that. Since damage reduction will be useless at that point some of you want to give Rhino's Iron Skin invulnerability to scale with that? How would that work?

 

Example: Rhino picks up all his dead (non-Rhino) team-mates who die instantly again just to find the Pod getting 1-shot by the enemies he can't lure away with the aggro management he offers because he's busy picking dead team-mates up?

Oh yes there's a Trinity in his team, so why would Rhino need invincibility HE needs to focus on while HE is busy keeping the ENEMIES busy? Right, why not give that job to a Warframe that has the time to focus on keeping his team alive by casting invulnerability for everyone.

 

The way DE has done it is awesome because you must have a team of different Warframes, there is not one single over-powered Warframe that could stand on it's own or in a 4x same Warframe group in 100% the game offers - which would be a different case if a team of invincible Rhinos could stomp into end-game endless defense like no other. 

 

For the following I'm not sure if I can be not biased but:

The PvP aspect: Warframe is a co-op game, PvP requires a whole new balance something like a secret twin brother for any PvE skill that will be swapped out by a PvP version of it in a duel/PvP. Balancing a PvE skill so it works in a 1v1 PvP duel situation does not make sense at all.

 

Warframe requires teamwork and discourages lone-wolfing!

 

A big 'Thank You!' to you developers/designers for encouraging team play and diversity so much, you've done an awesome job, Rhino's concept is another great proof of that - respect.

[Phoenix86]

Ummm 800 max damage vs 212 x 4 seconds (848). I'd say not....and I think one of her abilities armor ignores....that's a big deal.

 

Rhino stomp ignores armor too ;)

48 dmg vs 100% more range + 9 seconds aoe CC?

 

Naaa sry, Rhino wins it all, overall because Rhino can self buff himself to 1200 dmg, Saryn alone cannot

[kaeyo]

I'm fine with how the frame shaping up now, but just with two suggestions.

 

Rhino Charge:

I still hold onto my ideal that the animation and mechanics of this should change. Being that it shouldn't bear similarity to Slash Dash, but more the charging animation of mobs such as Ancients and Shield Lancers, and during this process of charging, rag-dolling light enemies, knocking down heavy and phasing bosses. Keep a fixed distance of travel, but slow travel time down slightly  to compensate with the added mechanics.

Also removal of the trail of blue behind the current Rhino Charge, it doesn't really do justice to how the character is represented, in my opinion.

 

Iron Skin:

After some consideration regarding his character, I think the perfect direction to go with this skill is to actually depict the effects of Rhino's skin becoming iron. i.e. slowing movement speed down to that of (brisk) walking and providing a percentage damage reduction as opposed to a fixed number.

This makes the skill less spammable and more situational. Why? Cause if you're gonna cast it in a situation where it's not needed, you're gonna be slowed and not be able to efficiently get to where you're needed. Conclusion, you'll have to think about when and where to use the skill; and with this in mind, only under these circumstances would it be appropriate to bring back the timing mechanic behind the skill.

[Thaumatos]

People keep talking about scaling with regard to level X mobs on some imaginary defense mission.

 

The defense missions are endless right?  The enemy critters will continue to progress as the wave numbers increase right?

 

Seems to me that there is going to be two caps on what defines the upper limit on what you can achieve there.

 

1. Statistical caps (eventually you are going to be one-shot by a creep if it can hit you at all, or it will one-shot the pod)

2. Skill cap (Even if Rhino were invincable, the player controlling it can only take it so far before the pod drops to IMBA creeps)

 

So, given the above.  There is theoretically an upper limit on what sorts of wave numbers can be reached with a given set of frames and perfect play.  It may surprise you to know that the Rhino may not be one of those frames that is able to make the final cut.  That does NOT mean that the rhino is worse than the ember for this task based soley on her % based resistance... it simply means that with a particular goal in mind, one frame with a particular skill set + perfect play will outshine all others at the absolute breaking point of the game mechanics.

 

Just because we have no personal community challenges beyond PVP and endless defense bragging rights, doesn't mean that the Rhino needs to be buffed to a place of prominance in those particular tasks.

 

PS : Iron skin has an aggro-taunt mechanism right?  If I couple this with Switch teleport (aggro follows rhino) and decoys, I could theoretically juggle endless waves of mobs and tickle them to death with a 2 rhino/ loki / Frost team right?

You guys keep forgetting about the void missions and the upcoming "Nightmare" mode they're planning on adding.

Watch livestream 9.

Iron Skin sucks for defense missions 20+, it sucks for void rank 3, and its going to suck for any and all super-difficulty "nightmare" mode they add.

A number damage absorb is just a bad idea, its either too powerful for lower level stuff or not powerful enough for anything else.

Edited July 5, 2013 by Thaumatos

[weezedog]

lol i was just comparing Rhino Stomp against Miasma and... omg Rhino can compete with Saryn and even beat her!

 

212*4 dmg vs 800 dmg

 

10m radius vs 20m radius

 

Yes Saryn can use continuity to add an extra tick and does 48 more dmg... but Rhino now has Roar which boost his dmg to a whooping 1200 dmg!!

(not to mention he boosts also team's dmg)

 

At nuking: Rhino > Saryn LOL

 

 

He CAN buff himself to 1200 damage IF he spends an extra 75 energy to do so. So he would have to spend 175 energy to do that 1200 damage, and that is not at all maintainable or feasible to do. IMO you aren't going to waste 75 energy for a stomp, you stomp too often. Doing it 2x It would cost you 350 energy to do 2400 damage, you are better off casting stomp 3x for 300 energy and 2400 damage.

Edited July 5, 2013 by weezedog

[Saiyanjin1]

Ummm 800 max damage vs 212 x 4 seconds (848). I'd say not....and I think one of her abilities armor ignores....that's a big deal.

 

If you add Focus to the mix it adds more damage to Stomp then Miasma because of the straight 800 x 30% compared to 212 x 30% x 4.

Add Focus + Roar for even more dead things at stupid ranges.

In anycase it has double range and also ignores amour now.

 

How about the fact that ALL of Rhinos skill are now more useful than ALL of Saryns? 

[Zulhardkidz]

aww man i didnt get the chance to use radial blast and i think that radial blast is still look awsome but the roar is kinda good too radial blast is better than roar for my oppinion

[weezedog]

If you add Focus to the mix it adds more damage to Stomp then Miasma because of the straight 800 x 30% compared to 212 x 30% x 4.

Add Focus + Roar for even more dead things at stupid ranges.

In anycase it has double range and also ignores amour now.

 

How about the fact that ALL of Rhinos skill are now more useful than ALL of Saryns? 

 

800 + 30% = 1040

(212 + 30%) x 4 = 1102

 

Not sure how you are figuring more damage to stomp. Also you aren't going to use roar for stomping, its not energy to damage efficient. Costs 175 energy to do that, and after 2x you have spent 350 energy, you would do more damage and use 50 less energy by casting stomp 3x.

 

However, Rhino Stomp is a much large range and that is a legitimate grip.

Edited July 5, 2013 by weezedog