What if there was a warframe that could use Arcwing weapons in normal missions?

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

Recently I have dedicated a lot of my time to study DE's development of Warframe as one day i hope to join their ranks, right now mainly about weapon and Warframe craft, comparing old vs new and what not but while brainstorming with myself, mainly when looking through Titania's abilities, I though "What if there was a Warframe who could wield Archwing weapons (only the weapons) in normal missions?"

 

Maybe a Warframe based around absurd lvls of strength, we could call it Hercule, heck if you wanna be a bit more obscure call him/her Nemea as a reference to the Nemean Cestus from GoW and that whole myth behind Hercules' tasks. I think it's a cool name for a character.

 

His/her passive could be something like:

Colossal strength: Nemea's strength allows it to use powerful weapons that would be too heavy for lesser creatures.

- Players can wield Archwing weapons in non Archwing missions.

- Archwing weapons will use the same mods they use in Archwing mode.

- "Heavy" melee weapons have a 20% bonus Attack speed and 10% bonus damage.

 

I'm genuinely curious cause while comparing the Archwing weapons and normal weapons they aren't THAT different. The way i see it the Archwing weapons would be considered the "Heavy duty weapons" in other games, things like Gattling guns, Multi pod rocket launchers, high caliber cannons, etc. which is reasonable given the size of the weapons and the main reason for us to not using them is because while we are super human even we can't carry these large weapons unless we are in the vacuum of space or underwater.

 

Nothing is final here is just a cool idea I wanted to share and discuss with other Tenno to see what they come up with. It's one of those ideas that could actually help some weapons as perhaps their mechanics aren't that good for Archwing but are wonderful for normal missions where Enemies aren't that mobile and slippery.

 

What you guys think? would it be too broken? if you think it is why and how would you balance it? what other abilities could cover such a theme? perhaps a mix of Themes is necessary to open up more Ability ideas? Comment down below and don't forget to have fun while doing it.

Edited December 11, 2016 by The_Sharp_Demonologist

[Akavakaku]

That would be a pretty sweet idea, as long as the animation differences between Archwing weapons and ground weapons aren't too great to make this feasible. Except the passive that allows this should not be called "abysmal strength" because "abysmal" actually means really weak or bad.

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

4 minutes ago, Akavakaku said:

That would be a pretty sweet idea, as long as the animation differences between Archwing weapons and ground weapons aren't too great to make this feasible. Except the passive that allows this should not be called "abysmal strength" because "abysmal" actually means really weak or bad.

Oh that figures, i was originally gonna call it Herculean strenght but that sounded too odvious.

And the animations are different but really the only thing they should change is from the waist down.

EDIT: There its more fitting

Edited December 11, 2016 by The_Sharp_Demonologist

[Salenstormwing]

I came up with that concept a while back, and was working it into my "Delta" Warframe concept. Basically the #4 was to just pull the Archwing weapon from the Void and go to town.

Needless to say, the idea didn't go over well. Here, I have a picture of the folks who posted in that thread:

I think it's a fine idea, but people aren't me, and folks like to ruin perfectly good ideas with the fact they hate Archwing.

I need to get back to redesigning that #4 at some point. Been busy since I posted the concept.

[UltimateGrr]

The problem with trying to use Archwing weapons in regular gameplay is that the damage numbers are low mid-tier at best.  Most of us have infantry weapons that deal vastly more damage than our Archwing equipment can ever dream of.

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

14 minutes ago, Salenstormwing said:

I came up with that concept a while back, and was working it into my "Delta" Warframe concept. Basically the #4 was to just pull the Archwing weapon from the Void and go to town.

Needless to say, the idea didn't go over well. Here, I have a picture of the folks who posted in that thread:

I think it's a fine idea, but people aren't me, and folks like to ruin perfectly good ideas with the fact they hate Archwing.

I need to get back to redesigning that #4 at some point. Been busy since I posted the concept.

Just ignore the trolls and try to keep a discussion with the more reasonable folk, if the thread isnt fille with the trolls that is.

9 minutes ago, UltimateGrr said:

The problem with trying to use Archwing weapons in regular gameplay is that the damage numbers are low mid-tier at best.  Most of us have infantry weapons that deal vastly more damage than our Archwing equipment can ever dream of.

Hmmm i would say the Archwing weapons are more on the mid damage rancge, wich is kinda odd when you consider Archwing weapons are like huge versions of the traditional weapons

[UltimateGrr]

27 minutes ago, The_Sharp_Demonologist said:

Hmmm i would say the Archwing weapons are more on the mid damage rancge, wich is kinda odd when you consider Archwing weapons are like huge versions of the traditional weapons

Depends on the weapon, really.  Fluctus and Grattler are pretty decent, but overall the Archwing weapons are generally underpowered compared to infantry weapons, and part of it is the significantly lower numbers on the damage mods.  Rubedo Lined Barrel only offers +60% damage compared to Serration's +165%, making an infantry weapon vastly more powerful than it's Archwing cousin despite having similar damage numbers.

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

2 minutes ago, UltimateGrr said:

Depends on the weapon, really.  Fluctus and Grattler are pretty decent, but overall the Archwing weapons are generally underpowered compared to infantry weapons, and part of it is the significantly lower numbers on the damage mods.  Rubedo Lined Barrel only offers +60% damage compared to Serration's +165%, making an infantry weapon vastly more powerful than it's Archwing cousin despite having similar damage numbers.

well in Damage 3.0 they are supposed to rebalance weapons and mods and removing the "Mandatory mod" mentality, maybe that will help the Archwing weapons as well

[Salenstormwing]

23 hours ago, The_Sharp_Demonologist said:

Just ignore the trolls and try to keep a discussion with the more reasonable folk, if the thread isnt fille with the trolls that is.

Hmmm i would say the Archwing weapons are more on the mid damage rancge, wich is kinda odd when you consider Archwing weapons are like huge versions of the traditional weapons

I try.

 

As for actually making the damage work in-game... I came up with that same issue when I was working on my Delta Concept. Again, had some thoughts about it. Because the weapons are 'Anti-Ship', they all gained the following:  Archwing weapons also ignore 35% of target’s armor and gain 1.5 Innate Punch-Through (This can change based on Warframe’s Power Strength). Also, at Lvl 30, the frame's base Strength would add a 3.5x multiplier to ALL damage done by the weapon, so if you got a frame with a 175% Power Strength, you'd have the weapon doing 6.125x it's normal damage, on top of ignoring armor (61.25% with the same 175% Power Strength), and 2.625 Punch through.

Needless to say... the weapon goes from being "eh" to "Yeah, that's an anti-ship bullet hitting someone in the face from an oversized anti-ship version of the Soma".

Power Strength multipliers are you friend.

I suppose increasing the chance to crit or status might also have worked, but the way I did it made the weapons still work the same, it just made the damage very potent. Something like an Imperator would be able to mow down swarms with such a high Punch through.

Edited December 12, 2016 by Salenstormwing

[shaemag]

On 12/11/2016 at 2:54 PM, The_Sharp_Demonologist said:

Recently I have dedicated a lot of my time to study DE's development of Warframe as one day i hope to join their ranks, right now mainly about weapon and Warframe craft, comparing old vs new and what not but while brainstorming with myself, mainly when looking through Titania's abilities, I though "What if there was a Warframe who could wield Archwing weapons (only the weapons) in normal missions?"

 

Maybe a Warframe based around absurd lvls of strength, we could call it Hercule, heck if you wanna be a bit more obscure call him/her Nemea as a reference to the Nemean Cestus from GoW and that whole myth behind Hercules' tasks. I think it's a cool name for a character.

 

His/her passive could be something like:

Colossal strength: Nemea's strength allows it to use powerful weapons that would be too heavy for lesser creatures.

- Players can wield Archwing weapons in non Archwing missions.

- Archwing weapons will use the same mods they use in Archwing mode.

- "Heavy" melee weapons have a 20% bonus Attack speed and 10% bonus damage.

 

I'm genuinely curious cause while comparing the Archwing weapons and normal weapons they aren't THAT different. The way i see it the Archwing weapons would be considered the "Heavy duty weapons" in other games, things like Gattling guns, Multi pod rocket launchers, high caliber cannons, etc. which is reasonable given the size of the weapons and the main reason for us to not using them is because while we are super human even we can't carry these large weapons unless we are in the vacuum of space or underwater.

 

Nothing is final here is just a cool idea I wanted to share and discuss with other Tenno to see what they come up with. It's one of those ideas that could actually help some weapons as perhaps their mechanics aren't that good for Archwing but are wonderful for normal missions where Enemies aren't that mobile and slippery.

 

What you guys think? would it be too broken? if you think it is why and how would you balance it? what other abilities could cover such a theme? perhaps a mix of Themes is necessary to open up more Ability ideas? Comment down below and don't forget to have fun while doing it.

I don't think the issue is so much about the weight of the gun making it unariable, as Atlas, Rhino and Saryn and Valkyr look like they could lift and aim it like the terminator. The real problem is that its just too heavy for parkour. it would completely eliminate the illusion of ninja-esque believability unless they turned every frame into Superman or Wonder Woman. that would be like MVC Iron-Man and War-Machine.

Not that it wouldn't be cool.

[Tsukinoki]

On 12/11/2016 at 1:54 PM, The_Sharp_Demonologist said:

What you guys think? would it be too broken?

I do think it would be too broken with some of the weapons. (Do note all numbers below are taken from the Wiki...not at my gaming computer so I can't check the stats 100% in game)

I mean a rapid firing 200 base damage gun that in normal scale(archwing is just scaled down to 1/4th scale) has infinite punch through to a range of 70 meters and covers a massive arc making missing near impossible as it literally wipes the room in front of you followed by the room behind it per shot?  And it has infinite ammo?
Because that is honestly what you're asking for when you ask for this with the Fluctus.
Even with just arch-gun mods I can get a fluctus that deals 111 impact, 55 puncture, 387 slash, 1328 corrosive and 1328 blast.
Its relatively low ammo count wouldn't matter as just a few shots would wipe 2 rooms minimum with potentially more giving me plenty of time to reload.

Sure those numbers can't beat something like the Tigris Prime in single target damage, but when you consider the sheer number of enemies that would be hit at once it more than makes up for it, and with how fast you can get out the shots its a definite room clear.

Lets just put it this way:
People already complain tons about the Synoid Simulor and this has potential to beat it out.

Even looking beyond the fluctus though the Cygnus would be a bit overwhelming.
A 200 base damage burst fire gun that can fire off 30 rounds incredibly fast and get all of its ammo back in 2 or 3 seconds after emptying its mag?
While not as overwhelming as the Fluctus in terms of sheer room clearing that would beat out pretty much every other burst or assault rifle out there.

Then there's the Grattler.
Rapid fire, decent damage, 5+ meter explosions with punchthrough?
Coupled with infinite ammo?
Seriously?  Using that on ground missions would be silly.

And then we have the next to useless ones as well, such as the Dual Decurions....
The simple thing is that the arch-guns just aren't that balanced between themselves and by putting them into the small, cramped maps that ground based warframe uses there are a few that would be stupidly OP, namely the fluctus.

Even the melee weapons would be a bit OP given their range.
I mean seriously, without range mods they would be hitting at 10ish meters.
And they have frankly absurd damage numbers.

For reference(again from the wiki): the galatine prime has 165 base damage.
The centaur? 280.
The prisma veritux? 300
Even with the relatively stronger mods for the normal weapons the arch-melee would still beat them out over most non-endless missions, especially due to their massive range.  In endless missions the combo-counter for the normal weapons would come out ahead and make the arch-melee utterly useless.

And note: that's only the stats of the weapons.  That's not considering how stupidly annoying it would be to have those weapons clipping through literally everything in the level as the ground levels, for the most part, just wouldn't have enough space to use them in.

But honestly the problem is that in some situations those weapons would be stupidly OP (especially the fluctus) and in others utterly pointless (the arch-melee in endless missions).

On 12/11/2016 at 1:54 PM, The_Sharp_Demonologist said:

if you think it is why and how would you balance it?

Honestly?
They would need completely different stats for the two different modes.
Even if you keep the stipulation of only using arch-gun mods they would still need different stats (especially the fluctus).

Also they would need actual ammo, and limited by reloads and ammo pickups.
The reason that they don't have that in archwing is can you imagine trying to pick up ammo boxes in archwing without the Itzal's "Cosmic Crush"?
On the ground the infinite ammo (especially with how fast some of it regenerates) would just be too powerful.

I would also say that arch-melee would just have to be avoided entirely due to the issues I listed above.

In closing:
While this might be a neat idea to think about I just see it as being too much work and in the end causing way too many complaints for it to be realized.
And this is coming from someone who enjoys archwing.

Edited December 13, 2016 by Tsukinoki

[xXDeadsinxX]

So basically Titania? I'm good, no point of making another Warframe having the same ability.

[Inarticulate]

On 12/13/2016 at 8:22 AM, xXDeadsinxX said:

So basically Titania? I'm good, no point of making another Warframe having the same ability.

No, he's asking for a Warframe that can equip Archwing weapons while still on foot.

Titania has to switch to Razorwing mode to equip Archwing weapons, and even then, she's limited to her own custom weapons and cannot equip standard Archwing weapons.

[StealthyCARNAGE]

Maybe not necessarily Archwing weapons, but heavy weapons of some sort would be fairly interesting. Kinda like that Geth gatling back in ME3 MP.

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

On 12/12/2016 at 4:35 PM, Salenstormwing said:

I try.

 

As for actually making the damage work in-game... I came up with that same issue when I was working on my Delta Concept. Again, had some thoughts about it. Because the weapons are 'Anti-Ship', they all gained the following:  Archwing weapons also ignore 35% of target’s armor and gain 1.5 Innate Punch-Through (This can change based on Warframe’s Power Strength). Also, at Lvl 30, the frame's base Strength would add a 3.5x multiplier to ALL damage done by the weapon, so if you got a frame with a 175% Power Strength, you'd have the weapon doing 6.125x it's normal damage, on top of ignoring armor (61.25% with the same 175% Power Strength), and 2.625 Punch through.

Needless to say... the weapon goes from being "eh" to "Yeah, that's an anti-ship bullet hitting someone in the face from an oversized anti-ship version of the Soma".

Power Strength multipliers are you friend.

I suppose increasing the chance to crit or status might also have worked, but the way I did it made the weapons still work the same, it just made the damage very potent. Something like an Imperator would be able to mow down swarms with such a high Punch through.

im not sure about the damage increase cause what would that do when Mods eventually rebalance? im guessing DE will not just rebalance normal mods but also Archwing mods. But i still get the point cause really when your using weapons that are created to pierce spacehips some random armored guy isnt exactly protected.

On 13/12/2016 at 2:21 AM, shaemag said:

I don't think the issue is so much about the weight of the gun making it unariable, as Atlas, Rhino and Saryn and Valkyr look like they could lift and aim it like the terminator. The real problem is that its just too heavy for parkour. it would completely eliminate the illusion of ninja-esque believability unless they turned every frame into Superman or Wonder Woman. that would be like MVC Iron-Man and War-Machine.

Not that it wouldn't be cool.

I think we jumped the idea of a "Traditional ninja" when we gained acess to a space magician that walks two planes of existence, or a flat out berserker kitty.

Besides from what i have gathered about the real life ninjas they where more about espionage and they would use any kind of training that would help them achieve their goal so when we are talking Space Ninja that opens up alot of posibilities.

 

On 13/12/2016 at 9:49 AM, Tsukinoki said:

I do think it would be too broken with some of the weapons. (Do note all numbers below are taken from the Wiki...not at my gaming computer so I can't check the stats 100% in game)

I mean a rapid firing 200 base damage gun that in normal scale(archwing is just scaled down to 1/4th scale) has infinite punch through to a range of 70 meters and covers a massive arc making missing near impossible as it literally wipes the room in front of you followed by the room behind it per shot?  And it has infinite ammo?
Because that is honestly what you're asking for when you ask for this with the Fluctus.
Even with just arch-gun mods I can get a fluctus that deals 111 impact, 55 puncture, 387 slash, 1328 corrosive and 1328 blast.
Its relatively low ammo count wouldn't matter as just a few shots would wipe 2 rooms minimum with potentially more giving me plenty of time to reload.

Sure those numbers can't beat something like the Tigris Prime in single target damage, but when you consider the sheer number of enemies that would be hit at once it more than makes up for it, and with how fast you can get out the shots its a definite room clear.

Lets just put it this way:
People already complain tons about the Synoid Simulor and this has potential to beat it out.

Even looking beyond the fluctus though the Cygnus would be a bit overwhelming.
A 200 base damage burst fire gun that can fire off 30 rounds incredibly fast and get all of its ammo back in 2 or 3 seconds after emptying its mag?
While not as overwhelming as the Fluctus in terms of sheer room clearing that would beat out pretty much every other burst or assault rifle out there.

Then there's the Grattler.
Rapid fire, decent damage, 5+ meter explosions with punchthrough?
Coupled with infinite ammo?
Seriously?  Using that on ground missions would be silly.

And then we have the next to useless ones as well, such as the Dual Decurions....
The simple thing is that the arch-guns just aren't that balanced between themselves and by putting them into the small, cramped maps that ground based warframe uses there are a few that would be stupidly OP, namely the fluctus.

Even the melee weapons would be a bit OP given their range.
I mean seriously, without range mods they would be hitting at 10ish meters.
And they have frankly absurd damage numbers.

For reference(again from the wiki): the galatine prime has 165 base damage.
The centaur? 280.
The prisma veritux? 300
Even with the relatively stronger mods for the normal weapons the arch-melee would still beat them out over most non-endless missions, especially due to their massive range.  In endless missions the combo-counter for the normal weapons would come out ahead and make the arch-melee utterly useless.

And note: that's only the stats of the weapons.  That's not considering how stupidly annoying it would be to have those weapons clipping through literally everything in the level as the ground levels, for the most part, just wouldn't have enough space to use them in.

But honestly the problem is that in some situations those weapons would be stupidly OP (especially the fluctus) and in others utterly pointless (the arch-melee in endless missions).

Honestly?
They would need completely different stats for the two different modes.
Even if you keep the stipulation of only using arch-gun mods they would still need different stats (especially the fluctus).

Also they would need actual ammo, and limited by reloads and ammo pickups.
The reason that they don't have that in archwing is can you imagine trying to pick up ammo boxes in archwing without the Itzal's "Cosmic Crush"?
On the ground the infinite ammo (especially with how fast some of it regenerates) would just be too powerful.

I would also say that arch-melee would just have to be avoided entirely due to the issues I listed above.

In closing:
While this might be a neat idea to think about I just see it as being too much work and in the end causing way too many complaints for it to be realized.
And this is coming from someone who enjoys archwing.

In that case we could say that they use limited ammo there cause normally the Archwing provieds the ammo but on foot you have to look into it, Maybe keep the no reload policy but perhaps add some kind of disadvantage, maybe he moves much slower when firing the weapon?

Your right it opens up quite the problem to make the transition... perhaps there is a way to work around the concept.

 

On 14/12/2016 at 1:46 PM, S.C. said:

Maybe not necessarily Archwing weapons, but heavy weapons of some sort would be fairly interesting. Kinda like that Geth gatling back in ME3 MP.

I always wanted warframe to introduce some kind of heavy weapon cathegory, though that would be a far different topic to the Archwing weapons.

[Thrymm]

Would be worth a look, I think.  Getting to use the Grattler without having to play archwing would be pretty cool.