The Tengus/Queen Dilemma: A Storytelling Rant of Disgusting Length.

[Unus]

  Allo folks, Unus here again, but, this time, with a bit of an "interesting" head-scratcher.

(Turn back now if you aren't up for some story-pokeing or a "good" theory-crafto rant or two)

   While dithering about in the shower today (so this is what they call "shower-thoughts! Aha, I get it now.), a thought occurred to me. Doc Tengus, he was the cause of the Infestation of Mercury, yes? Well, with all his futzing about with the Infestation, it kinda makes me wonder, what was he hopeing to accomplish? Then, it hit me. The Kweens were the architects (one of at least) of the Warframe program. Somehow, in their labs, they brewed up a "Tenno-strain" with which we could puppet an army of androids and gynoids. Is it possible that, rather then takeing Alad's top-down approach (from Frame guts, to full frames, to fested), Tengus could be takeing a ground up approach? Like mother, like son, perhaps even with mommies' insights guideing his gnarled fingers. 

   Also, seeing as we almost completely ignore the chap as we punch the toilet-bowled windbag's lights out, do you think he might even succeed? If he piggybacks off what Alad already has (or had, if Phoroid didn't apply the mental plunger to his toilet bowl), and combines it with his fumbling genecraft. . .might we be seeing a generation of Somaticlly implanted Grinic frames or even (if he gets a holda us) Grinnic Operators? Sure, mummsies likely bleeding out in her bedroom, having a desperate "heart-to-heart" with some godforsaken donor, or enjoying the view from Teshin's walk-in head-rack, but, how much info could she have given him? Most disturbingly of all, with mommykins out of the picture, how much could the Worm know? That sucker was like a parrot, sponging off anything the Kween said. Could she have juuust enough info to to tip Tengus into a Eureka Moment?

 

Phew! Apologies that went on for so long, that one thought was like tinder and flint for the rest of me.

Edited January 3, 2017 by Unus

[NeithanDiniem]

Considering that transference for those that arent gifted by the void like the Tenno tend to get stuck in transference or lose themselves, I dont think that will be the case no.

[Unus]

7 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Considering that transference for those that arent gifted by the void like the Tenno tend to get stuck in transference or lose themselves, I dont think that will be the case no.

   Sure, they might get stuck, but, think about it. Your average Grinic grunt won't give a toss if they get stuck in a Warframe, because the Warframe's body will live 100% longer and let them kill 50% (till we show up anyway) more things then their own. Heck, imagine if they figure out how to shove somatics in Corpus bodies. . .

[HellDevil]

it wouldent hold up.

[Kaotyke]

6 hours ago, Unus said:

   Sure, they might get stuck, but, think about it. Your average Grinic grunt won't give a toss if they get stuck in a Warframe, because the Warframe's body will live 100% longer and let them kill 50% (till we show up anyway) more things then their own. Heck, imagine if they figure out how to shove somatics in Corpus bodies. . .

But what are the Warframes: Infested puppets, they dont have the Void powers, merely shape them.

Also, didnt Sylvana try to connect to a Warframe? I think she described it having a "shadowy presence", it makes me think that there is a will inside the Warframe, and only the Tenno's Void powers can truly subvert it, or others with strong will/resolve (Vengence in Stalker's case), I think the Grineer has neither.

[tnccs215]

that's a quite interesting theory... And not ridiculous at that.

however, I think it would be a bit repetitive if the Grineer were also attempting to discover how the frames work, instead of just attempting to weaponize the infestation.

I mean gee, the frames aren't the center of the universe. Making everything revolve around them is quite boring.

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

47 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

I mean gee, the frames aren't the center of the universe.

The game is called Warframe.

[ChuckMaverick]

17 minutes ago, (PS4)Tactless_Ninja said:

The game is called Warframe.

The game's name makes sense from our perspective as Tenno protagonists, but the Grineer wouldn't see the world that way.

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

1 minute ago, ChuckMaverick said:

The game's name makes sense from our perspective as Tenno protagonists, but the Grineer wouldn't see the world that way.

But from the player's standpoint we know (excuse my French) F***all about Warframes themselves. So far they've been focused on by proxy with the Tenno and in much smaller degrees in Corpus and infested, but don't actually have any personal stake in anything other than to just be used. I'd find it odd if the Warframes didn't eventually play a larger overall plot arch especially if they're simply tools of war. Specters and even the Stalker I feel may be hinting towards that, along with the upcoming global version of ye frame who shall not be named.

[tnccs215]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Tactless_Ninja said:

The game is called Warframe.

Sorry, I forgot all games had to have shortsighted narratives permanently centered around the most obvious thing

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

5 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

Sorry, I forgot all games had to have shortsighted narratives permanently centered around the most obvious thing

Well Titanic wasn't about a schooner.

[Nocam]

Expected a long &#! rant.

OP, you disappoint.

[ChuckMaverick]

19 minutes ago, (PS4)Tactless_Ninja said:

26 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

Sorry, I forgot all games had to have shortsighted narratives permanently centered around the most obvious thing

Well Titanic wasn't about a schooner.

No it was about class differences, romance... oh wait, you thought it was about a ship?

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

1 hour ago, ChuckMaverick said:

No it was about class differences, romance... oh wait, you thought it was about a ship?

The ship was a vehicle to carry all that Romance and...well it wasn't a very good boat. I mean it sank and took poor Leo with it. But still it had to have some importance. Otherwise it turns into a silly name game like Final Fantasy which is on it's 15th installment not counting every spin-off.

Alright, let's take a vote. Everyone for renaming Warframe to Meat Puppets of Endless Grindin say aye!

[Smilomaniac]

That wasn't a long rant at all, apart from the interposed sentences and sporadic thoughts that made it a mess to read.

I've said it other places, but I'll say it again, DE makes stuff up on the fly, so don't expect anything to make sense or for there to be intricate little stories hidden everywhere. They like the big picture, the rest is not their strong suit at all.

In game perspective:
Transference is not something we've seen anyone but the Orokin and Tenno mess with, for good reason. It's highly specialized equipment that wasn't used for anyone but the Tenno themselves. There may be more to Orokin immortality on this topic.
The gist of it is, that it would be extremely unlikely for the Grineer to find this equipment, salvage it and much less be able to use it in any meaningful way. Also remember, Grineer are genetically created to hate everything not Grineer, which would put these Grineer frames in a very awkward position.

Why would they though? First off, Grineer are about as bright as a doornail, they're nowhere near independent enough to be any sort of tactical threat. They do just fine with their heavy armor and weapons because they're brutes, so why waste resources on a handful of ninja-wannabes when you can churn out millions of cannon fodder?
If the Tenno and Grineer fought in a straight up fight on a plain battlefield, all of us vs. all of them, the Tenno would lose one hundred times out of a hundred (ignore warframe builds as being canon lore; A Rhino can't stomp and levitate everything in a 100 foot diameter, it's just gameplay). Our advantage is to hit them where it hurts through stealth (at least the approach is hidden) and to use precision strikes against key installations and personnel, because we're splinter group specialists.

So from the Grineer viewpoint, we're mostly a nuisance, albeit one that regularly cripples their plans.

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

1 hour ago, Smilomaniac said:

That wasn't a long rant at all, apart from the interposed sentences and sporadic thoughts that made it a mess to read.

I've said it other places, but I'll say it again, DE makes stuff up on the fly, so don't expect anything to make sense or for there to be intricate little stories hidden everywhere. They like the big picture, the rest is not their strong suit at all.

In game perspective:
Transference is not something we've seen anyone but the Orokin and Tenno mess with, for good reason. It's highly specialized equipment that wasn't used for anyone but the Tenno themselves. There may be more to Orokin immortality on this topic.
The gist of it is, that it would be extremely unlikely for the Grineer to find this equipment, salvage it and much less be able to use it in any meaningful way. Also remember, Grineer are genetically created to hate everything not Grineer, which would put these Grineer frames in a very awkward position.

Why would they though? First off, Grineer are about as bright as a doornail, they're nowhere near independent enough to be any sort of tactical threat. They do just fine with their heavy armor and weapons because they're brutes, so why waste resources on a handful of ninja-wannabes when you can churn out millions of cannon fodder?
If the Tenno and Grineer fought in a straight up fight on a plain battlefield, all of us vs. all of them, the Tenno would lose one hundred times out of a hundred (ignore warframe builds as being canon lore; A Rhino can't stomp and levitate everything in a 100 foot diameter, it's just gameplay). Our advantage is to hit them where it hurts through stealth (at least the approach is hidden) and to use precision strikes against key installations and personnel, because we're splinter group specialists.

So from the Grineer viewpoint, we're mostly a nuisance, albeit one that regularly cripples their plans.

I dont agree the Grineer have shown to be smarter than they gave away at first. Like that scientist guy that OP mentioned, Tyr Regor is a scientific genious who almost cured the Grineer before we "stopped" his research (what we did was a minor setback at most) and dont forget how Vor managed to almost "hack" our warframes.

Normal Grineer goons are cannon fodder for the most part but the big guys have shown individuality and inteligence (with some expections) and since the big mama was an Orokin ignoring the Grineer's advancements would be a stupid idea, if anything we should attack more agressively and deny any chance they have to get their hands on Warframes or Tenno.

 

Also almost forgot remember we managed to infiltrate their highest security fortress and almost killed the Queen. Im Sure we are no longer just a nuisance.

Edited January 3, 2017 by The_Sharp_Demonologist

[Smilomaniac]

1 minute ago, The_Sharp_Demonologist said:

I dont agree the Grineer have shown to be smarter than they gave away at first. Like that scientist guy that OP mentioned, Tyr Regor is a scientific genious who almost cured the Grineer before we "stopped" his research (what we did was a minor setback at most) and dont forget how Vor managed to almost "hack" our warframes.

Normal Grineer goons are cannon fodder for the most part but the big guys have shown individuality and inteligence (with some expections) and since the big mama was an Orokin ignoring the Grineer's advancements would be a stupid idea, if anything we should attack more agressively and deny any chance they have to get their hands on Warframes or Tenno

The "genius" Grineer aren't ever explained. We're told that the Grineer are generally stupid, which makes sense, since they are based on a literal worker race that had little to no desire to do more than manual labour.

As far as we know, these more intelligent Grineer are one in a billion, and they only exist for us to have the occasional interesting antagonist.

I'm just basing it off of what the general idea of the Grineer is supposed to be.

[Unus]

    Geezus holy titties and cinnamon, people actually listen to my booshett? Is the rapture that close already?

8 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

that's a quite interesting theory... And not ridiculous at that.

however, I think it would be a bit repetitive if the Grineer were also attempting to discover how the frames work, instead of just attempting to weaponize the infestation.

I mean gee, the frames aren't the center of the universe. Making everything revolve around them is quite boring.

  Ah, I gotcha, was just reminded of Captain Vor's interest in us long before Alad that might make the repetition justified, especially if, unlike Vor's passive "make existing ones work for us" and Alad's "chop and chop till I find something that works", Tengus' systematic possibly program-founder-supported approach might actually bear fruit and spawn a "War Without". It's not unprecedented for the Grin's monomaniacal "high-born" to actually be successful at their chosen tasks.

 

5 hours ago, Nocam said:

Expected a long &#! rant.

OP, you disappoint.

  Dem it, guess I'm not as big of a ranty offender as I thought after all, unless. . . you haven't seen my Moshpit, have you?

 

1 hour ago, Smilomaniac said:

That wasn't a long rant at all, apart from the interposed sentences and sporadic thoughts that made it a mess to read.

I've said it other places, but I'll say it again, DE makes stuff up on the fly, so don't expect anything to make sense or for there to be intricate little stories hidden everywhere. They like the big picture, the rest is not their strong suit at all.

In game perspective:
Transference is not something we've seen anyone but the Orokin and Tenno mess with, for good reason. It's highly specialized equipment that wasn't used for anyone but the Tenno themselves. There may be more to Orokin immortality on this topic.
The gist of it is, that it would be extremely unlikely for the Grineer to find this equipment, salvage it and much less be able to use it in any meaningful way. Also remember, Grineer are genetically created to hate everything not Grineer, which would put these Grineer frames in a very awkward position.

Why would they though? First off, Grineer are about as bright as a doornail, they're nowhere near independent enough to be any sort of tactical threat. They do just fine with their heavy armor and weapons because they're brutes, so why waste resources on a handful of ninja-wannabes when you can churn out millions of cannon fodder?
If the Tenno and Grineer fought in a straight up fight on a plain battlefield, all of us vs. all of them, the Tenno would lose one hundred times out of a hundred (ignore warframe builds as being canon lore; A Rhino can't stomp and levitate everything in a 100 foot diameter, it's just gameplay). Our advantage is to hit them where it hurts through stealth (at least the approach is hidden) and to use precision strikes against key installations and personnel, because we're splinter group specialists.

So from the Grineer viewpoint, we're mostly a nuisance, albeit one that regularly cripples their plans.

Interposed sent. . . I'm genuinely   interested, what's that one mean exactly? Also, sadly, I understand what the second part means all to well, 'tis my lifelong descriptive trait it is.

I dunno, that Hunhow sentinel mask was in there for quite a while afore Hunhow popped up.

Ah, but, you see, if the Grins are clones of her highness, wouldn't that make this specific brood. . . Orokin? If not Orokoid? If the Kweens had their talons in his work, there might actually be a chance at progress, unlike, say, Hek's narrow-minded deforestation project or Ruk's "Grineer will Save the Sol System" endless expansion. Plus, if the Kweens told them to treat the frame grins as brothers, EVERY single one of the hunch-backed s.o.b.s would jump to and obey, even our favorite talking head.

 Ah, but, you see, that's just it. The average Grin is nothing more the a means-to-an-end tool used to brute-force problems out of the way. They don't matter in the long run. It's those who DO matter who would benefit the most, the upper crust of their society, the ones who would gladly exchange their decaying bodies for immortality. Picture Hek  leaping from tree to tree, sliceing through each truck with a set of ripkas  with mad glee, reveling at the fact he has a body again as a team of clone-controlled Embers bolt through the undergrowth spewing flames that refuse to die down even in the moistest conditions. No need for fancy toxins to clear a landing zone, just a few frames are needed to clear the land and ensure ease-of-settlement while also conserveing the precious Grinic genome. No need to risk potential further genetic degradation by cloning constant millions when you can just use a few of what you have to solve big issues like that.

 

Edited January 3, 2017 by Unus

[OniDax]

The Queens didn't oversee the Warframe program, and the Grineer aren't clones of the Queens.

1) Ballas is the one who oversaw the Warframe program. Look at the Prime trailers for Vauban, Saryn, and Nekros, and look at The Second Dream and The Silver Grove quests. Ballas is clearly the one who was in charge of the Warframes, not the Queens.

2) The Grineer were clones used by the Orokin, with no indication that the Orokin used the Queens to create them.

[Smilomaniac]

4 minutes ago, Unus said:

Interposed sent. . . I'm genuinely   interested, what's that one mean exactly? Also, sadly, I understand what the second part means all to well, 'tis my lifelong descriptive trait it is.

Admittedly I had to google translate it from my language; An interposed sentence is when you put a sentence within another sentence - an example being:

"I had a thought, mind you it doesn't happen often, as to what it means to be green."

The part between the commas is an interposed sentence, something I use far too often myself.

8 minutes ago, Unus said:

I dunno, that Hunhow sentinel mask was in there for quite a while afore Hunhow popped up.

Ah, but, you see, if the Grins are clones of her highness, wouldn't that make this specific brood. . . Orokin? If not Orokoid? If the Kweens had their talons in his work, there might actually be a chance at progress, unlike, say, Hek's narrow-minded deforestation project or Ruk's "Grineer will Save the Sol System" endless expansion. Plus, if the Kweens told them to treat the frame grins as brothers, EVERY single one of the hunch-backed s.o.b.s would jump to and obey, even our favorite talking head.

 Ah, but, you see, that's just it. The average Grin is nothing more the a means-to-an-end tool used to brute-force problems out of the way. They don't matter in the long run. It's those who DO matter who would benefit the most, the upper crust of their society, the ones who would gladly exchange their decaying bodies for immortality. Picture Hek  leaping from tree to tree, sliceing through each truck with a set of ripkas  with mad glee, reveling at the fact he has a body again as a team of clone-controlled Embers bolt through the undergrowth spewing flames that refuse to die down even in the moistest conditions. No need for fancy toxins to clear a landing zone, just a few frames are needed to clear the land and ensure ease-of-settlement while also conserveing the precious Grinic genome. No need to risk potential further genetic degradation by cloning constant millions when you can just use a few of what you have to solve big issues like that.

I didn't know the sentinel mask was out before the Second Dream, that's pretty interesting. In general though, DE will often make lore inconsistencies to make up new things and while they often hint to things, they're rarely bound in existing lore. That's my interpretation of it anyway.

-

I'm not too sure that the Grineer are in any way clones of, or related to the queen(s). Quite specifically they came about from the Orokin worker race, which further back in history were British or English, apparently. If there's anything pointing to them being half-breeds with orokin genes though, please let me know, I've not read that anywhere.
At any rate, it's probably not too important since "Orokin" is just the name of the hierarchy during mankinds greatest era, or at least their technological pinnacle. We could similarly call the current world elites and political leaders "Orokin", if they used enough gold as part of their appearance :D

You are right that the Grineer could simply be ordered to tolerate these frames, however it would need to be broadcast to the entire force, which would reveal a huge secret to the rest of the solar system. Additionally, just because a Grineer grunt knows that he should not attack them, he wouldn't necessarily recognize one in the heat of battle.
To be honest with you it's probably not a problem at all, especially during gameplay, it's more the general idea of the Grineer that somewhat limits introducing new kinds of "non-grineer" units to their army. It doesn't fit their identity very well :/

-

I agree that these Grineer frames would be extremely beneficial to them, what I meant was that it might not be something they would want to use in general. Again, it speaks more to what kind of enemy they are, than being an objective benefit.

It's a cool idea though, especially with the tennogen grineer (Graxx) skins we have, which are already pretty awesome. Besides that, DE has already used deluxe skins as enemy specters, so there's precedent for something similar.

[NeithanDiniem]

11 hours ago, Kaotyke said:

But what are the Warframes: Infested puppets, they dont have the Void powers, merely shape them.

Also, didnt Sylvana try to connect to a Warframe? I think she described it having a "shadowy presence", it makes me think that there is a will inside the Warframe, and only the Tenno's Void powers can truly subvert it, or others with strong will/resolve (Vengence in Stalker's case), I think the Grineer has neither.

Um, no the warframes still have the powers, do remember that the Mesa and Chroma warframes we fight are empty. The batteries to fuel them are what the Tenno provide, pretty much.

1 hour ago, Smilomaniac said:

I didn't know the sentinel mask was out before the Second Dream, that's pretty interesting. In general though, DE will often make lore inconsistencies to make up new things and while they often hint to things, they're rarely bound in existing lore. That's my interpretation of it anyway.

There isnt that many lore inconsistencies actually, this is coming from a guy part of a group of people that regularly tear into what lore there is of Warframe to develop the timeline of events. The few that do exist lie in the Tenno origin bits.

To go along with the Hunhow Mask, Archwing was planned to be added to the game since Mag Prime was released, quite a long time before. The Kubrow mask also existed before the pets were around.

Edited January 3, 2017 by NeithanDiniem

[Kaotyke]

Just now, NeithanDiniem said:

Um, no the warframes still have the powers, do remember that the Mesa and Chroma warframes we fight are empty.

Its something that doesnt make sense, the Warframes shape the Tenno's powers, how is Mesa and Chroma (Althought I havent ever seen Chroma use any ability in the Quest) able to use theirs?

The only conclusion is that the Warframes make energy like the Infested Ancients, but it doesnt have the... potency? Of Void energy. <- Wild Guess

[DrProfSirCarmen]

Pretty sure it was just Tengus @(*()&#036; around with infested, Grineer scientists tend to be of the mad variety. If the Queens were trying to make their own form of Tenno I don't think they'd relegate it to someone like Tengus who in the overall hierarchy seems to be unimportant.

[Unus]

3 hours ago, AntoineFlemming said:

The Queens didn't oversee the Warframe program, and the Grineer aren't clones of the Queens.

1) Ballas is the one who oversaw the Warframe program. Look at the Prime trailers for Vauban, Saryn, and Nekros, and look at The Second Dream and The Silver Grove quests. Ballas is clearly the one who was in charge of the Warframes, not the Queens.

2) The Grineer were clones used by the Orokin, with no indication that the Orokin used the Queens to create them.

  Yes, Ballas was the overseer, but he did not run the program alone, he had a whole team behind him. Margulis, Mrs "Whoops I'm a forest now", and, from the way she speaks and the way she knew how to get to us with her Infesto-stick, The great bagworm herself. Seeing as she only seems to have partial knowledge of the frames (she knew how to get in, but, she knew nothing of Teshin's backdoor.), it would make sense that she would be trying to fumble through all the parts she lacked knowledge of by using one of her specially-grown idiot-savant peons. Luckily, we've likely set things back a bit by shutting that little info leak up.

 

Yes, I understand that the big-standard grunts are very much nothing more then template clones, but, what about the "upper-crust"? SOMETHING has to have  made Vor, Kril, and Hek different. Either they are custom designs the Queen had a hand in or they are very VERY old grins, darting back to the Empire's formation.

As a bit of a side note, Vor, how the ell did he learn how to wield that key so deftly without some kind of cumbersome bypass device like the Void gates? There has to be at least a drop of Orokoid blood in that chap somewhere that let him slip past the gene locks AND get adopted by a Void Tower.

 

 

[OniDax]

13 minutes ago, Unus said:

  Yes, Ballas was the overseer, but he did not run the program alone, he had a whole team behind him. Margulis, Mrs "Whoops I'm a forest now", and, from the way she speaks and the way she knew how to get to us with her Infesto-stick, The great bagworm herself. Seeing as she only seems to have partial knowledge of the frames (she knew how to get in, but, she knew nothing of Teshin's backdoor.), it would make sense that she would be trying to fumble through all the parts she lacked knowledge of by using one of her specially-grown idiot-savant peons. Luckily, we've likely set things back a bit by shutting that little info leak up.

 

Yes, I understand that the big-standard grunts are very much nothing more then template clones, but, what about the "upper-crust"? SOMETHING has to have  made Vor, Kril, and Hek different. Either they are custom designs the Queen had a hand in or they are very VERY old grins, darting back to the Empire's formation.

As a bit of a side note, Vor, how the ell did he learn how to wield that key so deftly without some kind of cumbersome bypass device like the Void gates? There has to be at least a drop of Orokoid blood in that chap somewhere that let him slip past the gene locks AND get adopted by a Void Tower.

 

 

Margulis never worked on the Warframes. The Warframes only came about after Margulis was dead.