How the Grineer Helminth Charger makes sense lore wise.

[NeithanDiniem]

2 minutes ago, Loswaith said:

Yet everything they changed still has some semblance to what was before, heavily implying some major limitations.  Just because they could alter and change some aspects, or even homogenise genetics, doesn't mean they could completely rewrite a basic genetic principle.

And what genetic principle are you claiming they are rewriting?

[ObviousLee]

1 minute ago, Delta-Epsilon_Limit said:

So you're saying the incubation machine is creating the chargers grineer armor and all? 

we're saying that the genetic blueprint was input by nidus, and the incubator filled in the gaps for necessary materials that may have been needed to finish the gestation period.

 

[Loswaith]

3 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

And what genetic principle are you claiming they are rewriting?

Efficiency in conversion of genetic matter (Kubrow into grineer in this case), like I initially said.

Edited January 6, 2017 by Loswaith

[NeithanDiniem]

1 minute ago, Delta-Epsilon_Limit said:

So you're saying the incubation machine is creating the chargers grineer armor and all? 

Considering that the incubation machine also doesn't magically make matter when it makes a pet grow in the span of a few days to a matured pup or kitten, it can be surmised that this device is in supplying the necessary materials required by the developing organism inside. It is fully capable of providing minerals like calcium that is used by a developing Kubro embryo to form bones, it provides iron to produce enzymes and hemoglobin inside the organism. Its already doing the very required function that would allow it to do the thing you question.

Don't forget this incubation chamber is across the room from a foundry device that can construct biological and mechanical weapons in a matter of hours. The idea that a machine can provide materials required for development of an organism shouldn't be a surprise.

[Delta-Epsilon_Limit]

1 minute ago, NeithanDiniem said:

It is fully capable of providing minerals like calcium that is used by a developing Kubro embryo to form bones

Kubrows grow in eggs, not embryos... Eggs already contain everything they need for the kubrow to grow and hatch... Like a bird....
 

 

2 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Don't forget this incubation chamber is across the room from a foundry device that can construct biological and mechanical weapons in a matter of hours. The idea that a machine can provide materials required for development of an organism shouldn't be a surprise.

But to create weapons in the foundry it uses resources, like metal.

[NeithanDiniem]

3 hours ago, Loswaith said:

Efficiency in conversion of genetic matter (Kubrow into grineer in this case), like I initially said.

You do realize that Kubrows aren't made from "Kubrodium" and Grineer from "Grineerite" right? They are both organic red blooded organisms that require the same basic materials and minerals. DNA can be altered stupidly easily especially by viruses, especially if it isn't being altered at all and simply destroyed and replaced by something else using the basic building blocks that would then be present. Efficiency is a moot point since there is nothing in this game stating that they haven't got the technology to make that inefficiency problem we have in the real world no longer be a problem. I'm pretty sure the accomplishments the Orokin were capable of is enough to display that it is in fact not a problem.

Edited January 6, 2017 by NeithanDiniem

[NeithanDiniem]

2 minutes ago, Delta-Epsilon_Limit said:

Kubrows grow in eggs, not embryos... Eggs already contain everything they need for the kubrow to grow and hatch... Like a bird....
 

 

But to create weapons in the foundry it uses resources, like metal.

... You do know that creatures that develop inside of an egg are still considered Embryos... right? Also, the Foundry makes Infested weapons, biological/mechanical hybridized weapons.

Kavats grow from DNA... Not eggs... Where does any of the material used to incubate a Kavat come from then if the Incubator cant provide it?

[Loswaith]

14 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

... You do know that creatures that develop inside of an egg are still considered Embryos... right? Also, the Foundry makes Infested weapons, biological/mechanical hybridized weapons.

Kavats grow from DNA... Not eggs... Where does any of the material used to incubate a Kavat come from then if the Incubator cant provide it?

Yes, but it doesn't create a kubrow, from that kavat DNA does it?  Nor is a kavat created from the kubrow egg.  Thus it obviously still has some limitations on the genetic template.  The Incubator even needed a module (thus additional data) to even be able to create the kavat.

Likewise the incubator doesn't create weaponry.  Only the foundry does that, essentially "printing" the weapons.

 

13 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

You do realize that Kubrows aren't made from "Kubrodium" and Grineer from "Grineerite" right? They are both organic red blooded organisms that require the same basic materials and minerals. DNA can be altered stupidly easily especially be viruses, especially if it isn't being altered at all and simply destroyed and replaced by something else using the basic building blocks that would then be present. Efficiency is a moot point since there is nothing in this game stating that they haven't got the technology to make that inefficiency problem we have in the real world no longer be a problem. I'm pretty sure the accomplishments the Orokin were capable of is enough to display that it is in fact not a problem.

By that notion Orokin and infestation could literally change everything in the universe.  So you may as well just fall back on "space magic" as the reason for anything being possible in warframe.

Edited January 6, 2017 by Loswaith

[NeithanDiniem]

27 minutes ago, Loswaith said:

Yes, but it doesn't create a kubrow, from that kavat DNA does it?  Nor is a kavat created from the kubrow egg.  Thus it obviously still has some limitations on the genetic template.

No it apparently creates Kavats from nothing since you haven't stated that the incubator is capable of providing material used in gestation.

Now then, What is DNA made up of? Sugar phosphate and 4 nitrogen-based nucleotides (5 if you want to get technical and include rDNA, but the 5th is only one molecule different from the 4th and would be easily modified by simply moving said molecule to another location on the nucleotide). What is a Virus good at? Carrying new and altering existing DNA. What would nanomachines be able to do? Break down complex structure into simple forms and build simple forms into complex structure all on a molecular level. What does the Incubator do? Gestate organisms to maturity rapidly following a DNA imprint embedded in the device or read from supplied material as well as supply needed material for said gestation.

What would be required to take a Kubrow egg and transform it into an Infested Charger? First the nanomachine side of the infestation would break down the complex structure of the egg into basic material. The existing Kubrow DNA would not be required since when broken apart it forms the basic building blocks of any DNA structure. Viruses can provide a set pattern of DNA taken from a source and inject it into another using basic genetic building blocks. We now have a new DNA to follow. The incubator is already capable of incubating the DNA into a immature form of the organism. We have ample material present that is basic and used for a wide selection of organic life, as well as having a way to dispose of unneeded material via the incubator or provide new material if it is not already present in enough amounts. Amounts are regulated by analyzing the DNA and seeing what is required by that organism's genetic makeup. Gestation occurs using the basic materials to form the embryo and grow the organism. As gestation is happening nanomachines can take additional material and build complex structure, additional material being provided in the same way as before, though the incubator. Cook at 350 until golden brown, and let cool for 30 minutes

You now have an infested Charger from a Kubrow egg following basic principles.

Also remember that the Foundry builds WARFRAMES as well, which house an infested golem that is self aware. What is the difference from "printing" and organic weapon and "printing" an organic pet? We humans right now in real life can "print" organs that are usable as organ transplants. This game takes place well beyond the capabilities we have now.

Edited January 6, 2017 by NeithanDiniem

[(XBOX)ashes of suvius]

4 hours ago, NeithanDiniem said:

The "new strain" that made new troops? It replaced the old strain, meaning it was not separated from the old strain, it overwrote it, meaning it was fully capable of making both the old and new units. Why did it make new units? Alad V forced the infestation to adapt by working with it and now it had the capability to do so. It had no method at all of ever doing that before. You have again not addressed the issue of How can units (Ancients) that have no capability of forming based on your explanation that information cannot be shared between locations spawn in places where the original bodies that were used to make them are not present.

Also again your very body right now has inorganic materials within it that are present because your genetic code calls for those materials to be used. It is basic understanding of biology that every cell in your body requires iron in it. Its what gives blood its color and the ability to carry oxygen, it is used in enzymes in most cells of your body. Iron is not the only mineral used by the body. Any creature with red blood or basic cellular structure has inorganic materials within their body specifically set there because the genetics of the body developed the means to incorporate those materials into the organisms biology. Your body has specific coding in it to give characteristics and specific use to inorganic material.

Lastly we are talking about an organism that uses nanotechnology as a fundamental aspect of itself. Nanotechnology would allow it to construct far more sophisticated and complex forms of both organic and inorganic material. It would be able to give more specific use to inorganic material in ways that an organism alone would be incapable of. This is not the first time I have brought that up.

how do you not understand that the ancients still get made by my theory. The virus made the first ancients long ago n had time to spread. Its just that by my understanding, they wouldn't have gold bits of orokin armor if they weren't made from orokin. I'm not denying that the hivemind transmission theory could be valid. I just keep saying its not fact n I've proven that its not fact, its theory. Its also quite a possibility that the hivemind effects the strains evolution across space via that method but doesn't directly control the formation of individual units. In my theory that part works like a regular virus, carrying the data and corrupting infected matter. But all of that is irrelevant to the main point, it doesn't have anything to do with helminth which is disconnected.

the mutalist strain didn't overwrite the old strain until it escaped alads facilities and there was outbreak.

no one is arguing that the foundry could supply materials, or if it could make ferrite armor in the style of grineer, its whether the helminth charger design would make grineer armor and by extension whether all chargers have ferrite armor in grineer fashion or whether this is just how they are represented in game due to a variety of reasons not related to lore, like game optimization, enemy design happening before modular enemy design being implemented, etc

the synthesis lore for infested - in many cases, traces of the victims original form are visible in the new mutated form

the synthesis lore for infestation - inorganic materials, like metals, will change structurally into a pseudo organic substance that holds the characteristics of its previous forms.

both of these things, taken from some of our newest sources of information on infested, lead me to believe that the only way ur getting grineer armor in an infested mass is if its made in part from grineer armor.

Edited January 6, 2017 by (XB1)ashes of suvius
phone being stupid.

[ObviousLee]

Just now, (Xbox One)ashes of suvius said:

 

you forgot the text hombre lol

[(XBOX)ashes of suvius]

23 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

you forgot the text hombre lol

yeah, phone felt like glitching out where I was touching on the screen. Posted what I meant to now.

edit: Obviously ObviousLee

Edited January 6, 2017 by (XB1)ashes of suvius

[ObviousLee]

Just now, (Xbox One)ashes of suvius said:

yeah, phone felt like glitching out where I was touching on the screen. Posted what I meant to now

just wanna take the time to say that even though we're on disagreeing points of view, thank you for your participation within the thread. 

also, i had a chat with steve earlier this evening on twitch, and he managed to find the time to answer a question that i asked him.

The question was, from a story element perspective, was Helminth on every operators orbiter, or just the player characters orbiter. He told me that the short answer is, that it's "yours", meaning the player characters orbiter. So, what this tells me is that helminth is native only to the player characters orbiter which indicates that it's extremely likely that this is not the first time that the player character has had nidus under its control.

My reasoning is that in the tutorial quest line, the liset that was sent to pick you up was shot down by Vor. Only after waking up your original liset, which houses Ordis, are you taken directly to your orbiter which houses helminth. Helminth always addresses nidus as master, indiciative of a past and current relationship with one another. So this tells me that at one point in time, we(the player character) owned nidus before.

All this leads me to the questions of: Where did Nidus come from? When did we get him? When did we lose him? How did we lose him? When did the Myconians get him? What significance did he have in relation to the old war? see what I mean? This is how my mind operates, question by question, then I seek out the answers one by one. what are your thoughts?

[(XBOX)ashes of suvius]

2 hours ago, ObviousLee said:

just wanna take the time to say that even though we're on disagreeing points of view, thank you for your participation within the thread. 

also, i had a chat with steve earlier this evening on twitch, and he managed to find the time to answer a question that i asked him.

The question was, from a story element perspective, was Helminth on every operators orbiter, or just the player characters orbiter. He told me that the short answer is, that it's "yours", meaning the player characters orbiter. So, what this tells me is that helminth is native only to the player characters orbiter which indicates that it's extremely likely that this is not the first time that the player character has had nidus under its control.

My reasoning is that in the tutorial quest line, the liset that was sent to pick you up was shot down by Vor. Only after waking up your original liset, which houses Ordis, are you taken directly to your orbiter which houses helminth. Helminth always addresses nidus as master, indiciative of a past and current relationship with one another. So this tells me that at one point in time, we(the player character) owned nidus before.

All this leads me to the questions of: Where did Nidus come from? When did we get him? When did we lose him? How did we lose him? When did the Myconians get him? What significance did he have in relation to the old war? see what I mean? This is how my mind operates, question by question, then I seek out the answers one by one. what are your thoughts?

my thoughts are thats we piloted many warframes in the old war but don't remember them cuz "the dream" I mean, as a community, I think alot of times we think of individual tenno with individual frames for some reason when referring to the old war, cuz we haven't broken the habit or something. But back then we acted in a similar way as we do now, with many frames. I'd imagine that in the days they were getting massed produced, new frames were spread across tenno ranks even quicker than now when we have to sift through rifts to our left behind junk n scrapping up relics of the old war. We would've had the new weapons vs the enemy asap because of how quickly our enemy was known to adapt. That said, I believe helminth is what he has become because of being separated and basically in a safe environment to grow. Perhaps he was at one point a cell from a nidus frames abilities n his master is just how he interpreted what he came from as he developed. Who knows. I should also mention that this one isnt technically same nidus as the one helminth knew, we just built this one from an old war relic revealing how. Tying back to the thread and helminth charger, I believe this new info can be twisted to either side, a) helminth has definitely been isolated and developed in that isolation, thus the concept of a charger is new to him and can be an update in terms of him/ his strain of the virus/ the virus itself learning. Or b) that helminth is obviously unique and has been in isolation, it has abilities beyond the normal infestation, it can affect warframes something we know most of the infestation cant do, thus the thing it makes should be unique. Going towards the unique (indulge me for a minute) and the fact that it could have come from a warframe, and thus evolved from a unique form of void energy conducting infestation, and the fact that it was from a time that our biggest enemy was sentient, it could be a strain that finally figured out how to incorporate them into infestation/warframe systems, thus giving the upcoming arm cannons. If this turns out to be the case it would in fact be the most advanced form of infestation. If any of that is correct then I speculate that he is cut off from the hivemind because he was from warframe material, which is immune to the hivemind, and could possibly be able to control whether he is tied to the hivemind, creating interesting room for nidus augments that enthrall nearby infested or infesting nearby enemies with his strain and hivemind like control. It could also possibly be involved in creating a new form of warframe, like maybe umbras. Cyst infection does turn karma towards the dark side. Of course anything with umbra I feel is wild speculation at this point. The arm cannons we know are being worked on currently.

also as I said, I love discussing lore. I appreciate a thread where we can do so and anyone that can remain rational while doing it. So thank you as well. But I'm not sure whether my spelling errors are me being tired or my phone messing with me at this point, so hopefully we can continue this tomorrow.

Edited January 6, 2017 by (XB1)ashes of suvius
i will try to clean this up and make it not "wall of text" when im not tired

[Cosmic_Elf]

It never made any sense, because Kubrows dont have grineer DNA, I think this cyst/infested pet thing was a rushed implementation into the game. It is poorly implemented braking lore and being annoying, that is, removing cyst to yet be infected again... They could have at least modified it a bit. But the whole thing does seem as some sort of fun joke, one can but only laugh... especially when the thing (which is what I called my pet and will do again, from my next cyst)  is more laughable when equiping it with Kubrow armor  and accessories. 

[Delta-Epsilon_Limit]

Oh just thought of another counter point: Grineer lancers are ALWAYS indisputably male, the infestation is obviously asexual, like any other type of fungus. So why is it that my pet grineer charger is female? That's definitely lore breaking and makes no sense either way. 

[Zookes]

This tho does not explain the tiny charger while it is not matured for combat.

 

This tiny Grineer is from where? And becomes larger with such proportions how?

[Loswaith]

6 hours ago, NeithanDiniem said:

No it apparently creates Kavats from nothing since you haven't stated that the incubator is capable of providing material used in gestation.

That is mostly because it doesn't need some lore explaining it for me (so i dont try shoehorn in an explanation), it is purely a mechanical thing for the player.

6 hours ago, NeithanDiniem said:

What would be required to take a Kubrow egg and transform it into an Infested Charger? First the nanomachine side of the infestation would break down the complex structure of the egg into basic material.

Then why do we even bother with kubrow eggs at all, as you put it any material could be used and broken down, especially given all the nano spores, mutagen and other infested touched resources we have we have in the foundry (it is creating an infested creature after all).  This is because DE says so, a mechanical reason for it to be in the incubator because it is a pet, not gear.

Why also aren't the chargers made instantly as well? like they are from boilers (rhetorical).  If its tied so closely to what the infested can achieve Helmith would know that too, if it knows about chargers.  Again it because the mechanics of a game dictating it to be that way not the lore.  Sometimes for games you simply have to say "this is for game-play regardless of lore".  The charger just happens to be that.

 

6 hours ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Also remember that the Foundry builds WARFRAMES as well, which house an infested golem that is self aware. What is the difference from "printing" and organic weapon and "printing" an organic pet?

Given the foundry does do so, what possible reason by the lore do we even have for having the incubator, which is the inferior process to the foundry (everything the incubator creates degrades over time), when the foundry can clearly do so better and still make sense via the lore.  Again because DE wanted the process separated mechanically in the game.

Edited January 6, 2017 by Loswaith

[NeithanDiniem]

6 hours ago, Loswaith said:

That is mostly because it doesn't need some lore explaining it for me (so i dont try shoehorn in an explanation), it is purely a mechanical thing for the player.

Then why do we even bother with kubrow eggs at all, as you put it any material could be used and broken down, especially given all the nano spores, mutagen and other infested touched resources we have we have in the foundry (it is creating an infested creature after all).  This is because DE says so, a mechanical reason for it to be in the incubator because it is a pet, not gear.

Why also aren't the chargers made instantly as well? like they are from boilers (rhetorical).  If its tied so closely to what the infested can achieve Helmith would know that too, if it knows about chargers.  Again it because the mechanics of a game dictating it to be that way not the lore.  Sometimes for games you simply have to say "this is for game-play regardless of lore".  The charger just happens to be that.

 

Given the foundry does do so, what possible reason by the lore do we even have for having the incubator, which is the inferior process to the foundry (everything the incubator creates degrades over time), when the foundry can clearly do so better and still make sense via the lore.  Again because DE wanted the process separated mechanically in the game.

Probably because as you stated a mechanical shortcut as it were for DE to put a soft restriction or cost on players getting the Charger by having to have an Egg and incubator core to incubate the pet. Its using an existing system with the cyst drain resource added on, thus not requiring a ton of coding to add a new layer of function to the breeding system (such as making "infested" pets be their own section on the incubator breeding UI). Ive never said that DE strictly intended the egg for lore purposes, the point of this thread was to explain how it still works for the lore we do know. Its not a serious thing. Mostly it builds discussion on how the infestation can work in general, which is far more interesting.

The Infested spawned from boilers are inherently weaker than natural formed ones, in-game mechanically being capped at level 10, so that can be taken from a lore standpoint that the creatures are in fact weaker and intended to be used more for brute numbers. Growing them in the same manner would result in the same effect, a less-developed form. Its perfectly capable of being tied to lore.

Probably because the Incubator also maintains and stores the pets in stasis, which the foundry would be utterly incapable of doing for one, and the Incubator has genetic manipulation tech within it compared to just a glorified printer. The reason to the genetic degradation is because they are modified to use old genetic templates for the Kubrow and Kavat breeds. They suffer the same issue that the Grineer do in that instance, who are also using an old template. The infested charger could have its own reason for degrading from a lore standpoint, but from a mechanical one it would be unwise to make a single pet ignore the maintenance system all the others are required to use. It would cause a bias for use, which would give the impression of superiority and reduce choice.

[(XBOX)ashes of suvius]

47 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Ive never said that DE strictly intended the egg for lore purposes, the point of this thread was to explain how it still works for the lore we do know

and we are saying that we can have a valid lore discussion without having to make it work with implementation shortcuts. Things done for reasons of easy implementation or optimization or anything else on the game design side aren't building blocks of the lore that the lore should be tied down by. Like every charger having grineer armor, we have reason to believe that wouldn't be true straight from the lore. That being true would validate a game implementation choice as lore friendly, but only at the expense of invalidating preexisting lore.

[Maugre]

On 1/3/2017 at 8:05 PM, AM-Bunny said:

If this was true, why would Infestation ever choose to produce a 'lesser' unit? Just make everything Lephantis.

Why does Mutalist Alad V still resemble Alad V and why does Jordas Golem still resemble a ship? Shouldn't they also have Grineer-like growths?

I do like the thought though - it reminds me of the Aragami from God Eater, which always struck me as one of the most intriguing Infested-like antagonists I've seen.

Can't create something from nothing, I guess? You need matter to grow, and Lephantis and Jordas are HUGE. I'd wager a bet that the infestation only does as much as they need to with the host to make it useful, as to not waste energy and resources. Sure, it would make it a living nightmare for us if we had to fight 5 Jordas golems at once, but it  would spread faster with a couple of broodmothers spitting out maggots, being defended by a horde of lesser units... assuming the Tenno don't come along and ruin their day.

Edited January 6, 2017 by Maugre

[(XBOX)ashes of suvius]

I like the concepts they showed on the stream quite a bit. What are your thoughts?

[Angrados]

29 minutes ago, (Xbox One)ashes of suvius said:

I like the concepts they showed on the stream quite a bit. What are your thoughts?

My post got deleted with my response ; - ;

So I will keep this brief. I'm cautiously optimistic about the system they're working on with Helminth, but I do think more time needs to be spent first on Focus and the Operator and how that meshes like they've hinted multiple times already at, before they jump into a new system. It occurred to me that perhaps Helminth and Nidus share a more intimate connection than we previously debated, as on multiple occasions Helminth has said, "We are as one" or something to that regard. What if Helminth was an extension of Nidus that was left behind in the ship after Nidus departed? It would explain the psychic link they seem to exhibit, and if the Hive Mind theory is accurate perhaps Nidus and Helminth are linked, which would explain Helminth having knowledge on the Grineer infested after having interacted with them. 

In terms of the new design, I think it looks cool, but I want to have the Charger skin stick around. It's grown on me a bit, though I'm not sure why. The different skin option would be greatly appreciated. 

On other news, I'm excited for the Phorid rework they hinted at. Anybody have different thoughts on that in particular? I think it's well deserved and I really, really want them to give Lephantis a look as well, but, he's apparently near the bottom of the stack...

[(XBOX)ashes of suvius]

12 minutes ago, Angrados said:

My post got deleted with my response ; - ;

So I will keep this brief. I'm cautiously optimistic about the system they're working on with Helminth, but I do think more time needs to be spent first on Focus and the Operator and how that meshes like they've hinted multiple times already at, before they jump into a new system. It occurred to me that perhaps Helminth and Nidus share a more intimate connection than we previously debated, as on multiple occasions Helminth has said, "We are as one" or something to that regard. What if Helminth was an extension of Nidus that was left behind in the ship after Nidus departed? It would explain the psychic link they seem to exhibit, and if the Hive Mind theory is accurate perhaps Nidus and Helminth are linked, which would explain Helminth having knowledge on the Grineer infested after having interacted with them. 

In terms of the new design, I think it looks cool, but I want to have the Charger skin stick around. It's grown on me a bit, though I'm not sure why. The different skin option would be greatly appreciated. 

On other news, I'm excited for the Phorid rework they hinted at. Anybody have different thoughts on that in particular? I think it's well deserved and I really, really want them to give Lephantis a look as well, but, he's apparently near the bottom of the stack...

as far as adding systems before the old ones are refined concern, thats exactly how I feel about arm cannons.

charger skin can be a skin like the hyeka skin n such, it doesn't have to waste opportunities n those opportunities coming to fruition doesn't mean its not possible to have that old charger skin as a cosmetic.

feel the same way about phorid and lephantis. I hoping it has something lore based to it that reveals a little bit more about the infested in general, or the hivemind, something more than just a battle update, even if its just a tiny bit here n there in his taunts and battlecries.

[AshenHaze]

I still hope it's just a placeholder.

It has to be, right?

I mean...DE may have a lot of mistakes but visually they are VERY solid. I mean just LOOK at Nidus. He's @(*()$ AMAZING and I'm sincerely not being sarcastic here. Nidus is what I've wanted in any video game for f******* YEARS now.

And here we have this charger. A charger mesh literally stretched onto a Kubrow rigging. You can even (laughably) place armor sets on it that just flop to either side, stretch oddly, and have an empty head.

Ball has been dropped hardcore, bout as much as the Hema catastrophe.