Troll_Logic Posted February 1, 2017 Author Share Posted February 1, 2017 4 minutes ago, StinkyPygmy said: Whether or not I have a minority opinion is a bit of a moot point. Its also a pretty big logical fallacy that an opinion or stance is "right" simply because its is shared by the majority. A large group of people can be wrong in much the same way a small group of people can be wrong. How many people agree on an idea has very little to do with how accurate it is. Even more so when talking about what is opinion based and not factual. I hope thats not your ace in the hole. I hope you making a broad metaphysical argument that has nothing to do with the topic is not your ace in the hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Fe-McHamm3rShot Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 33 minutes ago, Troll_Logic said: I hope you making a broad metaphysical argument that has nothing to do with the topic is not your ace in the hole. I was totally on board, but then we started talking about ghosts and stuff.. "metaphysical". Am I going to need some crystals to continue adding content to this thread, I don't know if I'm confortable with that.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chipputer Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 3 hours ago, Troll_Logic said: But dude, what do you think is the catalyst for all improvements? Feedback. Do you think I'm reporting the first time this happened? You're saying it should be improved but if no one said anything would it be improved? The problem is that the reason you want it to be improved is because you rushed the main objective instead of the Kuva siphon. It's like all of those kids that complain about being hungry an hour after they eat because they ate their dessert before their dinner and didn't have enough room. Beyond that, the way you're phrasing your feedback is absolving you of any guilt in putting yourself in that situation and putting the entirety of the blame on DE. As far as I'm concerned that makes it completely invalid because you had every opportunity to avoid the situation, in the first place. You know what the proper catalyst for changing the system should be? The fact that the Kuva siphon can be ignored and you can finish the mission without actually finding it. Extraction shouldn't even be an option until the siphon is completed. Period. While we're at it, let's just remove the possibility that someone like you could screw this up again and make the siphon be a requirement before the main mission. Then this can't possibly happen, regardless of who causes the error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll_Logic Posted February 1, 2017 Author Share Posted February 1, 2017 5 minutes ago, Chipputer said: The problem is that the reason you want it to be improved is because you rushed the main objective instead of the Kuva siphon. Nope. That's not why I want it improved. It's poor programming and design to put the siphon after the objective. I just discovered that flaw with that mission. Many are wrongly focused on how the flaw was found, and others in the thread have mention other examples, rather than the flaw itself. People do love to point fingers. 7 minutes ago, Chipputer said: Beyond that, the way you're phrasing your feedback is absolving you of any guilt in putting yourself in that situation and putting the entirety of the blame on DE. As far as I'm concerned that makes it completely invalid because you had every opportunity to avoid the situation, in the first place. Guilt? Really? Anyways, wrong again. I specifically mentioned it. Not only did I mention it, I quoted several players so it would stand out more. Again, pointing fingers. Doesn't matter that a flaw was found, let's just focus on pointing the finger at the one that found it. 9 minutes ago, Chipputer said: You know what the proper catalyst for changing the system should be? The fact that the Kuva siphon can be ignored and you can finish the mission without actually finding it. Extraction shouldn't even be an option until the siphon is completed. Period. That can occur now. As I mentioned earlier, DE often puts the siphon in the complete opposite direction of the objective. I have no problem with that. I just have a problem with the siphon being locked until the objective is complete. 16 minutes ago, Chipputer said: While we're at it, let's just remove the possibility that someone like you could screw this up again and make the siphon be a requirement before the main mission. Then this can't possibly happen, regardless of who causes the error. Geez dude, lose the hostility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StinkyPygmy Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 6 hours ago, Troll_Logic said: I hope you making a broad metaphysical argument that has nothing to do with the topic is not your ace in the hole. Hey, you brought it up. I can only work with what you give me, G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pizzarugi Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 (edited) In kuva sabotage, I've learned to always snipe the fuel cell as it gets ejected, forcing teammates to either take the freeze or magnetize route. Neither of them have to deal with the meltdown timer. Worst case scenario, I bring Limbo and use cataclysm to keep the fuel cell from getting placed back in the reactor. Even worse case scenario if the coolant rooms are busted, I keep the fuel cell until siphon is finished. If teammates want to rush the objective, then we're taking the option that doesn't have a time limit. Edited February 1, 2017 by Pizzarugi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trunks013 Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 (edited) 16 hours ago, Troll_Logic said: Only for decades, but I'll read the rest. Dude, it is literally nothing to build the map, see the starting point, see the objective, and put a kuva siphon in a compatible tile between the two points. Literally nothing. You don't think they aren't constantly test pathing while they are building the map? OH ! Totaly sorry about that. My goal was not to insult your programming skills but to point out why you didn't understood what i was saying. I'm 10 years over programmer ( i know still a newbie ^.^ ) but i'm in the school of thinking that if you disobey 3 Main rules you cannot call yourself a Programmer or say that you are "Coding" 1- Never say bad coding or poor programming without seeying the code or knowing the logic behind it. Why ? Because its literaly a spit in the face to the programmer straight. I saw multiple "programmers" in my life with over 15 years in the job and still not knowing what 127.0.0.1 is and laughing at other programmer writing stuff like if( value == true) not knowing that they were coding in a language where its mandatory to do that. The first real approach is to try to understand not to trash someone else work. Programming is building not destroying. If you are doing the second one maybe you are not in the right carrier. 2- Never promote spag prog/Spaghetti code . Why? How many time we had to read someone code to realise there is 150 lines of non-sense IF with GOTO and stuff like that. The other wrost case is those "programmers" who think its a BRIGHT IDEA to put DAMN SHOWMESSAGE/ALERT IN DLL so when you use it in a service the damn thing pop-ups where no-one will ever be able to click it and you might search for the damn thing for hours. and you managed to do 2 of the 3 in this thread tenno. NOW I SWEAR IF YOU DARE TO SAY SOMETHING IN THE LINE OF "INTERNET EXPLORER IS THE BEST WEB BROWSER EVER INVENTED" I WILL STOP BEING CIVIL ...... Jokes aside @-Fe-McHamm3rShot Dont worry i'm not saying if you dont know how to code you dont have a word to say. I'm just saying that if you dont know how to code its very badly seen to say "Putting the kuva siphon AFTER the goal in any mission is stupid and poor programming." How many fellow tenno i saw saying "I'm not a programmer but this part feel wrong can someone explain" ive seen many and there is no problem in that. Cats video are cool man ;) The main problem for me is that @Troll_Logic said it was poor programming and i tryed to explain to him how it was probably coded and he did not understood leading me to think he was not a programmer. That mistake was on me. Back on topic " Dude, it is literally nothing to build the map, see the starting point, see the objective, and put a kuva siphon in a compatible tile between the two points. " its actualy not maybe some think its like this ******************** ****************** ****************************** * Starting point * ---------------- * Room * -------------------* Exctraction if needed * ******************** ****************** ****************************** But its not at all it way more something like this ****************** ****************** ************************* * Starting point * -------------------* Room *---------------------* Room * ****************** ****************** ************************* || ****************** ****************** ************************* * Room * -------------------* Room * --------------------* Room * ****************** ****************** ************************* || ****************** ****************** ************************* * Room * -------------------* Room * --------------------* Room * ****************** ****************** ************************* || ****************** ****************** *********************************************** * Objective * -------------------* Room * --------------------*Corpus map loop we dont see often* ****************** ****************** *********************************************** || || ****************************** ************************ ************************* * Exctraction if needed * ----------* Path to nowhere* ---------------*Nowhere Room * ****************************** ************************ ************************* Its not as simple as saying put it between. Its 3d mapping so we cannot refer to either X,Y and Z as reference. We can take the order in wich they have been place before and put it there but its not guaranteed on path it may be the infamous room with only one door that everybody hate on ceres. (We cannot ask to remove this one Design team would jump to the ceiling) So baslicy you are asking to change the current spawn system to put it only before objective. The current system is clearly putting random hazard in tiles no regards of in what order they were placed. Changing the code to make sure its always between objective and starting point is not the right logic at all. It will just disturb the current system of spawning affect Synthesis target , Kuva siphon , Acolytes unt thingy and other random spawn on map. Dont say just put an IF(missiontype == "Kuva") THATS POOR PROGRAMMING. The current system is totaly working as intended to spawn stuff at random in the map to force us to go around and see. Its not poor programming this system does what he is suposed to do. The right question is more "Is the current system suited for kuva?" Instead of trying to bend the system to fit kuva in. You must understand that i'm not against you on this idea.I got this issue multiple time. Maybe putting kuva as a mission type where its the main goal to get it would be a better solution. The thing you must understand is that seeying someone claiming "poor programming" at a logic he dont understand is insulting me and i'm not even working at DE so picture how the programmer would see it ? Its a personal attack. You said you have decades in coding so i ask you to take a step back and realise what you just said. Its insulting for me as a programmer and i'm probably not the only one. PS: sorry for bad leet drawing i guess its programmers root comming back up ;) Edited February 1, 2017 by trunks013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll_Logic Posted February 2, 2017 Author Share Posted February 2, 2017 On 1/31/2017 at 3:38 PM, Rawbeard said: "DE, stop making my wrong choices have consequences!" Again, stop ignoring the flaw because of how the flaw was found. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll_Logic Posted February 2, 2017 Author Share Posted February 2, 2017 On 2/1/2017 at 3:04 AM, StinkyPygmy said: Hey, you brought it up. I can only work with what you give me, G. Not really. You could use common sense & reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll_Logic Posted February 2, 2017 Author Share Posted February 2, 2017 On 2/1/2017 at 8:23 AM, trunks013 said: Back on topic " Dude, it is literally nothing to build the map, see the starting point, see the objective, and put a kuva siphon in a compatible tile between the two points. " its actualy not maybe some think its like this ******************** ****************** ****************************** * Starting point * ---------------- * Room * -------------------* Exctraction if needed * ******************** ****************** ****************************** But its not at all it way more something like this ****************** ****************** ************************* * Starting point * -------------------* Room *---------------------* Room * ****************** ****************** ************************* || ****************** ****************** ************************* * Room * -------------------* Room * --------------------* Room * ****************** ****************** ************************* || ****************** ****************** ************************* * Room * -------------------* Room * --------------------* Room * ****************** ****************** ************************* || ****************** ****************** *********************************************** * Objective * -------------------* Room * --------------------*Corpus map loop we dont see often* ****************** ****************** *********************************************** || || ****************************** ************************ ************************* * Exctraction if needed * ----------* Path to nowhere* ---------------*Nowhere Room * ****************************** ************************ ************************* Its not as simple as saying put it between. Its 3d mapping so we cannot refer to either X,Y and Z as reference. It is as simple. There is literally no difference between your first example and your second. None. You're thinking in some weird 3D matrix. It really is much simpler than that. It's just pathing. That's all. The map isn't built pixel by pixel. It's built room by room. As rooms are added, pathing is checked. So by the time the map is finished, the pathing is complete because it was verified during the build. It's trivial to look for a compatible room between spawn and objective and place the siphon. On 2/1/2017 at 8:23 AM, trunks013 said: 1- Never say bad coding or poor programming without seeying the code or knowing the logic behind it. I don't need to see to see the code to identify a logic problem. Putting the unlocking console for a spy mission either in the room it unlocks is a logic error. I don't need to see the code to realize that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StinkyPygmy Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 5 minutes ago, Troll_Logic said: Not really. You could use common sense & reason. Well, if you're going to be like that then its clear that not only is the irony of that statement lost on you but that there is also nothing to be had in continuing this debate. Seeing as you are for some reason now more interested in arguing over semantics then the topic itself. I can only debate and work with what you give me. Common sense and reason has nothing to do with it. You give me points, I can agree or disagree and provide reasons. you start arguing around the issue, focusing on unrelated notes and generally derailing your own topic then all I can really do is work with the bread crumbs you throw at me or simply refuse to entertain you further. I'm going to roll with the latter option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll_Logic Posted February 2, 2017 Author Share Posted February 2, 2017 Added a few more really bad errors in the siphon maps to the original post. I was in a rescue kuva flood mission and the siphon was after the rescue. So now the players have to fight off the defenders, harvest kuva, & keep the target alive. That is extremely poor map design. I was in two capture siphon missions yesterday. The first put the target close enough to the siphon that the siphon & target were activated simultaneously. The second put the hostage after the siphon (which is good) but put him close enough that triggering the siphon also triggered the target to run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll_Logic Posted February 2, 2017 Author Share Posted February 2, 2017 3 minutes ago, StinkyPygmy said: I can only debate and work with what you give me. Nope. Again, you can use common sense & reasoning. You can also use context. You act as if each post someone makes in this thread is wholly separate and unrelated to every other post. But you'd rather argue just to argue. I've already stated I could have used a different strategy. I stated that early. But you, like many other here, would rather point fingers at someone who found a flaw (and found a few more yesterday and today) rather than admit there is a flaw. I'm not sure why you don't want to admit there is a flaw. It's not your flaw. I think you're just so entrenched in saying "You're wrong" that you can't backtrack even if it isn't a backtrack. Other people have mentioned this in this thread. You're ignoring them. Other people have mentioned similar examples. You're ignoring them. That's where you're ignoring context. I didn't say that I thought you were in the minority out of the blue. Anyway, G, I'm done with you. People you like derail threads with inanity so later hombre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trunks013 Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 1 hour ago, Troll_Logic said: It is as simple. There is literally no difference between your first example and your second. None. You're thinking in some weird 3D matrix. It really is much simpler than that. It's just pathing. That's all. The map isn't built pixel by pixel. It's built room by room. As rooms are added, pathing is checked. So by the time the map is finished, the pathing is complete because it was verified during the build. It's trivial to look for a compatible room between spawn and objective and place the siphon. I don't need to see to see the code to identify a logic problem. Putting the unlocking console for a spy mission either in the room it unlocks is a logic error. I don't need to see the code to realize that. I'm gonna take the blame for not expressing myself well on this one. Probably the language barrier. " So a tile is an object with different property Possible Loot/Containers/connection to other tiles/spawn possibility(plant/kubrow/sand thingy/cephalon frag) " I mean room but i consider calling all of them rooms may not be right because they might be open areas. Thats why i call them Tile as in "Tile set". Anyway Tile are each areas connected to another one. So basicly we are saying the same thing here " The map isn't built pixel by pixel. It's built room by room. As rooms are added, pathing is checked." Its 3 d modeling and yeah i already said that you can take all rooms placed between spawn and objective and place the siphon there right there " We can take the order in wich they have been place before and put it there but its not guaranteed on path it may be the infamous room with only one door that everybody hate on ceres. (We cannot ask to remove this one Design team would jump to the ceiling) " I also pointed out that it may not be in the direct path in wich my shema is different form the other i changed it to clarify ******************** ***************************** ****************************** ****************************** * Starting point * ---------------- * Room with kuva * -------------------* Objective *-------------------* Exctraction if needed * ******************** ****************************** ****************************** ****************************** But its not at all it way more something like this ****************** ****************** ************************* * Starting point * -------------------* Room *---------------------* Room * ****************** ****************** ************************* || ****************** ****************** ************************* * Room * -------------------* Room * --------------------* Room * ****************** ****************** ************************* || ****************** ****************** ************************* ************************* * Room * -------------------* Room * --------------------* Room * --------------------* Room With Kuva * ****************** ****************** ************************* ************************* || ****************** ****************** *********************************************** * Objective * -------------------* Room * --------------------*Corpus map loop we dont see often* ****************** ****************** *********************************************** || || ****************************** ************************ ************************* * Exctraction if needed * ----------* Path to nowhere* ---------------*Nowhere Room * ****************************** ************************ ************************* But its gonna be before the objective yeah totaly " I don't need to see to see the code to identify a logic problem. Putting the unlocking console for a spy mission either in the room it unlocks is a logic error. I don't need to see the code to realize that. " You are right but there is a difference between identifying a logic problem and calling stuff poor programming its not the same thing. It can be super well programmed / optimized and commented but still not giving you what you want. Those 2 things are separeted. Its not the right logic for kuva we can both agree on that. But bending the current spawning system to fit kuva in is not the right programmation idea. Its like using teamviewer as main transfer file app. Its working but its not the right tool. Lets put it this way with teamviewer its a good example Customer : "I transfered 160 Gb of data with teamviewer it was slow and it crashed. What poor programming guys!" TV Tech support : "Wait what ? The app is used for remote support and presentation. File transfert is integrated but is not made to transfer this amount of data. You will be better with something like a file transfert app." Lets make it simple. I do not like either that kuva spawn after objective and understand your frustration. BUT i dont think bending the current system to spawn kuva/synthesis/acolyte between starting point and objective is a good idea it will only put conditional for capture/sabotage or whatever else you could add to the situation. Putting it in another system and also making the synthesis target and acolyte in the same system to make sure they will not get the same problem is totaly fine. Having kuva siphon as an entire mission type could also be a possibility. I do not want to derail but you say you are coding for decades what are you coding ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawbeard Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 2 hours ago, Troll_Logic said: Again, stop ignoring the flaw because of how the flaw was found. that's literally not a flaw, though. if for example you ignore the capture target in favor of kuva, mission will fail, so why should ignoring similar limitations in other mission types be any different? you sabotage yourself, the flaw is with you, not the world, grasshopper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll_Logic Posted February 3, 2017 Author Share Posted February 3, 2017 19 hours ago, trunks013 said: I also pointed out that it may not be in the direct path in wich my shema is different form the other i changed it to clarify ******************** ***************************** ****************************** ****************************** * Starting point * ---------------- * Room with kuva * -------------------* Objective *-------------------* Exctraction if needed * ******************** ****************************** ****************************** ****************************** But its not at all it way more something like this ****************** ****************** ************************* * Starting point * -------------------* Room *---------------------* Room * ****************** ****************** ************************* || ****************** ****************** ************************* * Room * -------------------* Room * --------------------* Room * ****************** ****************** ************************* || ****************** ****************** ************************* ************************* * Room * -------------------* Room * --------------------* Room * --------------------* Room With Kuva * ****************** ****************** ************************* ************************* || ****************** ****************** *********************************************** * Objective * -------------------* Room * --------------------*Corpus map loop we dont see often* ****************** ****************** *********************************************** || || ****************************** ************************ ************************* * Exctraction if needed * ----------* Path to nowhere* ---------------*Nowhere Room * ****************************** ************************ ************************* But its gonna be before the objective yeah totaly Those are the exact same. That's what I'm trying to say. There is no difference between the two other than length, and that's inconsequential. Visually they look different and the second map looks more complicated, but to the computer, they're the same. Both maps are made up of known rooms. 20 hours ago, trunks013 said: You are right but there is a difference between identifying a logic problem and calling stuff poor programming its not the same thing. Poor programming is not necessarily a logic error, but a logic error is always poor programming. 20 hours ago, trunks013 said: But bending the current spawning system to fit kuva in is not the right programmation idea. I think you're missing the obvious point; kuva is being shoehorned into a map. So really there are only two ways to do it. 1) Pick a totally random place to put the siphon 2) Determine if there is a better condition in placing the kiva. Since there is only one other item of any significance in the map (placement of the objective), putting the siphon before or after. My point, and honestly I don't see how someone can say I'm wrong, is for certain objectives, it makes sense to put the siphon before the objective. 20 hours ago, trunks013 said: Lets put it this way with teamviewer its a good example Customer : "I transfered 160 Gb of data with teamviewer it was slow and it crashed. What poor programming guys!" TV Tech support : "Wait what ? The app is used for remote support and presentation. File transfert is integrated but is not made to transfer this amount of data. You will be better with something like a file transfert app." I'd say that wasn't really a logic error. It's more of a method of use problem. Kinda like using a pistol to hammer a nail and it fires by accident. If something is built for a specific use, and it's misused, that's not really a logic error. 20 hours ago, trunks013 said: Lets make it simple. I do not like either that kuva spawn after objective and understand your frustration. Good. 20 hours ago, trunks013 said: BUT i dont think bending the current system to spawn kuva/synthesis/acolyte between starting point and objective is a good idea it will only put conditional for capture/sabotage or whatever else you could add to the situation. But there is already a conditional in adding the siphon and I really don't see the big deal in it. There really isn't any "bending" going on. As I mentioned earlier, it really boils down to whether it's better to place the siphon randomly or before the objective. Now that I think about it, that's the exact same thing as well. Look at it this way. Room 0 is spawn. Room 80 is extract. Room 50 is objective. No matter how complicated the map looks, it really just a list of rooms. Generally speaking, right now DE is picking a number between 1 and 80, checking to see if it's a compatible room, and placing the siphon. To place the siphon before the objective, DE needs to pick a number between 1 and 49, check to see if it's compatible, and place the siphon. That's really the only difference. Again, broadly speaking. 21 hours ago, trunks013 said: I do not want to derail but you say you are coding for decades what are you coding ? I'll list what I've been paid to code with; Basic, Toolbook, Delphi, Perl, Expect, and soon Swift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll_Logic Posted February 3, 2017 Author Share Posted February 3, 2017 21 hours ago, Rawbeard said: that's literally not a flaw, though. if for example you ignore the capture target in favor of kuva, mission will fail, so why should ignoring similar limitations in other mission types be any different? you sabotage yourself, the flaw is with you, not the world, grasshopper. Again, you're focusing on how the flaw was found and would rather point fingers Jiminy. I'll leave this here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trunks013 Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 1 hour ago, Troll_Logic said: snip OH ! Circular arguing leading to "We are saying the same thing". I must admit i was not ready for this. For your coding language thats must be funny to be like string starts at 0 then nope they start at 1 and then nope again they are starting at 0 ^.^ Ive seen multiple programmers of your type in the past to be honest. Ill stop arguing from here with leaving it this way - I do not agree with your point of view on "poor programming" That being said ill leave right now since all arguing is futile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll_Logic Posted February 3, 2017 Author Share Posted February 3, 2017 12 minutes ago, trunks013 said: For your coding language thats must be funny to be like string starts at 0 then nope they start at 1 and then nope again they are starting at 0 ^.^ I'm not sure where you get circular arguing. But I guess it doesn't matter. It wouldn't be a string. It would be an array. But yeah, if spawn is Room 0, then they would have to pick a room starting at 1. After all they can't put the siphon in spawn. I have been in a map where the siphon was in the very next room. It's a fencepost thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trunks013 Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 5 minutes ago, Troll_Logic said: I'm not sure where you get circular arguing. But I guess it doesn't matter. It wouldn't be a string. It would be an array. But yeah, if spawn is Room 0, then they would have to pick a room starting at 1. After all they can't put the siphon in spawn. I have been in a map where the siphon was in the very next room. It's a fencepost thing. I was talking about the Delphi string pal ^.^ I'm not talking about the room i'm not that bad man cmon ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll_Logic Posted February 3, 2017 Author Share Posted February 3, 2017 Just now, trunks013 said: I was talking about the Delphi string pal ^.^ I'm not talking about the room i'm not that bad man cmon ;) Gotcha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawbeard Posted February 4, 2017 Share Posted February 4, 2017 13 hours ago, Troll_Logic said: Again, you're focusing on how the flaw was found and would rather point fingers Jiminy. I'll leave this here. what does it even... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N64Gamefreak Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 Soloed a Kuva Flood mission. Heard the braids but couldn't locate the siphon until it had captured 6/8 Kuva, only to find that it was behind a locked door that only opens after a hostage is rescued. Thanks DE! I'm confident that you'll do nothing about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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