Ember (World On Fire Passive - Wildfire)

[main_antagonist]

World On Fire didn't have a cap in the past it would burn all enemies in range but now it has a cap of burning 5 enemies at a time.

I've heard some people say using the Firequake Augment removes the cap but I can't find anything to confirm that I think they're simply confused to be honest.

Back to the point I still see a lot of Embers doing exactly the same thing she was nerfed for just standing around going AFK with World On Fire turned on and in my opinion I'm pretty certain that's why she got nerfed to only being able to burn 5 enemies at a time. Because in the past people could AFK like that and do MUCH more damage because there wasn't a cap on what you could kill.

So I got thinking about Ember pre-nerf and I think I've come up with a good compromise for DE and players who are active and not AFK'ing. Instead of sending multiple report tickets for people who AFK the incentive would be implemented for players who are mobile as a passive mechanic. This doesn't hurt players who enjoy the pace of the game which would make World On Fire function similar to how it did in the past before the nerf to deter people from AFK'ing with this ability turned on. The compromise is to give World On Fire a buff that rewards you for being active! The nerf hurts players who were active with Ember and it seems unjust that we should be punished for something that other people were doing as an exploit.

World On Fire passive - 'Wildfire'  (Not to be confused with her warframe passive this passive is a new mechanic for WOF)

Ember has a cap of 5 targets when she is walking or stationary, When sprinting a HUD indicator shows how many targets your 'Wildfire' passive enables you to burn at once the mechanic for this is as follows below.

Since the cap starts at 5 when you activate Wold On Fire the HUD icon shows up starting at 5, after five seconds your cap is increased to 6 and after six seconds the cap becomes 7 which goes on all the way up to 10. After getting 10 stacks of 'Wildfire' you get an infinity symbol which removes the cap.

To gain 'Wildfire' stacks you have to be running around and if you stop moving for 5 seconds all stacks are lost, this balances it out from becoming too overpowered while rewarding active players by giving them incentive to be mobile returning ember to her former glory before there was a cap placed on this ability.

The inspiration for this is a bushfire near me right now and it got me thinking about the old Ember and how fire moves so quickly which gave me the concept to reward active players :)

@[DE]Steve @[DE]Rebecca @[DE]Megan @[DE]Danielle

Hope everyone who reads this understands this is my concept and I would love to see it implemented since I feel it was unjust to have embers ability capped because it was being exploited in the past. I've put a lot of thought into this passive and if you disagree that's your own opinion keep the criticism constructive so that DE can see it and pass ideas around how to improve my concept if they decide to do so after reading this. Have a good day everyone! 

Here's a rough mockup with the World On Fire icon with a x7 multiplier on it to give people a rough idea how it might look if implemented, ignore that I'm almost out of energy as I took the screenshot for the mockup HUD indicator haha.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

Ember Buff thread.... Interesting. 

 

I approve :D

 

(Only if Wildfire also increases the damage of WoF too though or burns through ancient healers/disruptors :p)

[main_antagonist]

36 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Ember Buff thread.... Interesting. 

 

I approve :D

 

(Only if Wildfire also increases the damage of WoF too though or burns through ancient healers/disruptors :p)

I think it would because you're able to burn more targets at once like the old days your DPS is much higher if you can go above 5 enemies with the passive but it has it's risks haha. For example in the time it takes to cast Accelerant or Fire Blast that would be considered as time being immobile so if for example ...

You have your stacks maxed on Wildfire and then cast Accelerant before Fire Blast to multiply it's damage right? For some reason a Cryo barrel cold procs you, a scorpion hooks you or an ancient, perhaps a rocket from a bombard knocks you over yeah? Those 5 seconds are crucial because in the time it takes you to get back up after being knocked down you've already wasted perhaps 2 seconds from the casting animations earlier and you'd lose all your stacks so it's a bit of risk and reward :D 

Running around with Wildfire on maximum capacity and then casting accelerant should only shave off a second so as long as people pace their castings for her other abilities they should be able to maintain their stacks even after being knocked down. To avoid being knocked down you've gotta put on knockdown resist mods which might make you more squishy or perhaps less damage or efficiency I think the damage gain balances out with the potential builds people would come up with. I wouldn't mind sacrificing a damage mod off my build to add more sprint speed so I can gain more Wildfire stacks that's probably how I'd play her if this was implemented :)

Edited March 7, 2017 by main_antagonist

[(PSN)auwsomestgamer]

I like this idea, but as an ember player myself, sometimes I am not running around, but I am still active. For example, using a sniper or bow, you will have to stop running to take a few shots, or in a mobile defence, you're not going to be running around as much (especially in Sortie). If you are AFK you are not going to be walking or aiming etc. Also, keep it until 20 seconds because sometimes you will need to message your squad or someone else, and you will lose your stacks. Otherwise, yay ember! :)

[Nyaa314]

I never had any issue with target cap on levels where wof is viable at all. I use firequake, and if I run into huge enough group of enemies I use accelerant anyway, both to stay alive and kill them faster. If something didn't die after 5 seconds of accelerant it means I mush go kill napalm or healer or disruptor with actual weapons.

[ShadowTony]

I seriously doubt the fact it needs to be infinite.

1). Let's stop at 18 (similarly to Ash's Bladestorm number of hits).

2). Half of stacks are lost whenever another spell is being casted by Ember

3). All stacks are lost if World on Fire was cancelled due to any reason (entering null, going out of map, for ex)

4). Make icon change colour when max stacks are achieved.

Edited March 7, 2017 by ShadowTony

[(PSN)ShuhanX]

20 minutes ago, ShadowTony said:

I seriously doubt the fact it needs to be infinite.

1). Let's stop at 18 (similarly to Ash's Bladestorm number of hits).

2). Half of stacks are lost whenever another spell is being casted by Ember

3). All stacks are lost if World on Fire was cancelled due to any reason (entering null, going out of map, for ex)

4). Make icon change colour when max stacks are achieved.

I agree with everything other than #2. Ember is a caster frame, she needs to always be using her powers almost non-stop in order to survive. Being penalized for casting other powers is counter-intuitive to giving her more survivability. You'd basically never be able to maintain any stacks at all, because you're always casting other powers. 

[main_antagonist]

On 08/03/2017 at 0:44 AM, (PS4)ShuhanX said:

I agree with everything other than #2. Ember is a caster frame, she needs to always be using her powers almost non-stop in order to survive. Being penalized for casting other powers is counter-intuitive to giving her more survivability. You'd basically never be able to maintain any stacks at all, because you're always casting other powers. 

I agree with you being punished for using abilities would negate the passive too much

Also ...

On 08/03/2017 at 0:20 AM, ShadowTony said:

I seriously doubt the fact it needs to be infinite.

1). Let's stop at 18 (similarly to Ash's Bladestorm number of hits).

I don't agree entirely about it not being infinite ... Ash's abilities are targeted by sight you have control over which targets are going to take the damage. With World On Fire it's targeting is automatic so I really don't want to be doing damage to 18 infested maggots when I could be doing that to the stronger units that are a real threat to me, hope that makes sense of the reason why I dislike the cap.

There never was a cap originally and this makes it so you have to work for it and that's what makes it balanced, especially with the short 5 second penalty window removing all stacks ... think of it as pouring a bucket of water on campfire when it's not being used. This stops AFK'ers exploiting the cap removal.

Edited April 15, 2017 by main_antagonist

[appleiron]

Nice to see a buff thread.

I can't see any reason why not to have this, it has incentive to actively play. Abuse counter seems pretty solid.

[(PSN)ST-ChaoticMayhem]

I like the idea but it should still have a cap, and I think 10 is good enough for me. Also they need to fix WOF because it doesn't always hit enemies even nearby ones. I would see my WOF hit the ground while an enemy is right in front of me, so if it could hit all nearby enemies every time and not hit the ground anymore, that would be great.

[Djego27]

People would just exploit it with a macro running against a wall and running to the exit as quick as possible is the normal way of people to play Ember anyway in low level missions, why would you buff that? You also would lose any use of the mechanic at high levels, since you do not run past stuff at L100 and it dies from WoF, you actually have to stop by and use your weapons.

 

 

[main_antagonist]

12 hours ago, Djego27 said:

People would just exploit it with a macro running against a wall and running to the exit as quick as possible is the normal way of people to play Ember anyway in low level missions, why would you buff that? You also would lose any use of the mechanic at high levels, since you do not run past stuff at L100 and it dies from WoF, you actually have to stop by and use your weapons.

Until the enemies scale up to the point that they are able to knock you down and you lose your stacks sorry I don't agree :)

[Djego27]

What does enemy scaling has to do with it?

People do not use Ember at higher levels. I am like the 1% that played Ember long before the WoF buff(even where it was just terrible at high levels without the ability to re stun with acclerant over the full duration of the ability) as main and know WoF is mostly irrelevant for your dps, not because it is not one of the strongest 4 in the game for damage(what it actually is) but because of the amount you can deliver with properly heat modded weapons is multiple times higher.

It buffs macro afk farming, it buffs "run to the exit as quick as possible" farming, it does nothing for people that actually play Ember at higher levels. There is no benefit for a active played Ember, given that the change would not benefit you on levels where you actually have to play your frame active.

Edited April 16, 2017 by Djego27

[main_antagonist]

1 hour ago, Djego27 said:

What does enemy scaling has to do with it?

People do not use Ember at higher levels. I am like the 1% that played Ember long before the WoF buff(even where it was just terrible at high levels without the ability to re stun with acclerant over the full duration of the ability) as main and know WoF is mostly irrelevant for your dps, not because it is not one of the strongest 4 in the game for damage(what it actually is) but because of the amount you can deliver with properly heat modded weapons is multiple times higher.

It buffs macro afk farming, it buffs "run to the exit as quick as possible" farming, it does nothing for people that actually play Ember at higher levels. There is no benefit for a active played Ember, given that the change would not benefit you on levels where you actually have to play your frame active.

I don't see anybody agreeing with your negativity

[Xekrin]

I kind of like the idea but dislike the whole 'must stay moving' part of it.  There are plenty of times when it would be perfectly normal for someone to not be moving.  In those situations I will have to what? run in circles?  We already have volt's annoying passive for that.  What if I wish to aim and shoot a horde coming down a hallway?  

I will feel like I'm wasting potential damage by not moving constantly.  This would be a bit of an interference with my normal play style.  I try to adapt to changes made to frames and their abilities but this one just sounds like it would run me ragged, pun intended.

Again, like the idea but I think we could find a better way to do it that doesn't involve constantly sprinting just to maintain max potential damage.  Keep in mind we cannot shoot and sprint at the same time, though this would be a great time to bring forth the problem of having to reactivate sprint after shooting, which DE said they'd look into last year or more.

[main_antagonist]

3 hours ago, Xekrin said:

I kind of like the idea but dislike the whole 'must stay moving' part of it.  There are plenty of times when it would be perfectly normal for someone to not be moving.  In those situations I will have to what? run in circles?  We already have volt's annoying passive for that.  What if I wish to aim and shoot a horde coming down a hallway?  

I will feel like I'm wasting potential damage by not moving constantly.  This would be a bit of an interference with my normal play style.  I try to adapt to changes made to frames and their abilities but this one just sounds like it would run me ragged, pun intended.

Again, like the idea but I think we could find a better way to do it that doesn't involve constantly sprinting just to maintain max potential damage.  Keep in mind we cannot shoot and sprint at the same time, though this would be a great time to bring forth the problem of having to reactivate sprint after shooting, which DE said they'd look into last year or more.

Yeah but as I said in my OP bushfires spread that's what inspired this they move, and it is an added bonus that it stops afkers.

[Djego27]

On 17.4.2017 at 1:26 AM, main_antagonist said:

I don't see anybody agreeing with your negativity

It is not negativity, it is just my honest opinion as a player what the chance will accomplish from somebody that plays Ember as main since a very long time.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Djego27

[main_antagonist]

Just now, Djego27 said:

It is not negativity, it is just my honest opinion as a Ember main what the chance will accomplish from somebody that plays Ember as main since a very long time.

You left no alternative mechanic suggestions or positive feedback that's called negative criticism 

[Xekrin]

4 minutes ago, main_antagonist said:

Yeah but as I said in my OP bushfires spread that's what inspired this they move, and it is an added bonus that it stops afkers.

A half-hearted attempt at a better mechanic for such a concept would be that 'zones' slowly fill up with excess energy (or the reverse are depleted of air/energy/void/whatever), so after a certain point either Ember's abilities gain extra damage that slowly drains away.  

Either that or her abilities are at full strength for only a certain duration in any particular area before the area requires time to recharge/refill.

Upon moving to a new area, her strength is renewed. Thereby remaining in one area too long turns her blazing flames into little matchstick fires until she moves to a new location effectively refreshing her power.

I dunno something like that.  I like the visual of bushfires spreading, and rather wish our fires did the same when being ignited.  I just don't like the idea of constant movement being the only way to maintain it.

Maybe the cooldown period should be around 30 seconds for a 20 meter radius or something.  You can remain in a 20 meter area for 30 seconds, moving or not and slowly gain stacks over time, after 30 seconds they decay.  Moving to a new area within 30 seconds maintains and refreshes the stacks keeping the ability at full strength.

Although I feel that is rather a lot of effort to go through for a single ability.  May as well redo her entire kit and have everything work off of it, like Nidus.

[DeadScream]

So basically on mobile missions the walking simulator would be intensified ? 

How about a heat stack system which unlocks WoF only after a while ? So people will finally get to... aiming at stuff ? 

 

You joined my "nerf and buff" thread just to tell me "hey come see my buff thread, I don't care if Embers ruin every single Exterminate pub :D"  x) 

 

I kinda like your idea though, on higher levels it would be nice for Ember.

[Djego27]

Negative criticism would be mostly if I just left a "no you are a very dump person for suggesting this!!!" what I did not do, simply because it would be similar rude as to actually get my point and just replay with a "will be no issue, honest :)", while both options offer close to nothing in exchange of opinions why specific mechanics work a certain way and why it would be good or bad for the game in our personal opinion.

But you asking for my opinion on a alternative mechanical suggests is fair and I will give that to you.

WoF should be slightly raised in status chance to about 40% and hit one more targets by every extra 30% power strength per hit(since it is 2-4 per second atm), removing it's power strength scaling while reducing the damage to 50, down form 400. By this it becomes a better CC tool at higher levels while forcing the player actually actively point a gun at something(what is in the case of Ember actually incredible effective given the accelerant buff you can one shot sorti level enemies).

In return every fire proc in range of WoF becomes a stackable one, where you can feed further dot damage into it what, even if it realistically is not needed given how much damage Ember can do already, will remove a lot of the issues people seam to have with Ember at higher levels.

 

Edited April 17, 2017 by Djego27

[Justice_Ember]

If anyone is familiar with Dota maybe they can see the similarity with Lina's Fiery Soul, a passive that stacks used spells to give physical buffs, taking that and using the bushfire logic by @main_antagonist while following @ShadowTony suggestion of 18 stacks max I would say that in order to prevent abuse and AFKing a good alternative is to buff Ember's additional damage, so faster movement by stack (let's say 8% each), faster firerate for primaries (maybe 5% per stack?), higher status proc for secondaries (7% per stack) and/or attack speed for meele(10%?). That in my opinion would be a good incentive for 1.- Use her kit more and 2.- Mod weapons for sinergy with her kit while 3.- Giving no benefit to AFKers.

Edit: By the way, is any of the other Ember players bothered by the fact that Fireblast and WoF have a similar animation? Wouldn't Fireblast look a lot better with a releasing ki sort of animation? Like an internal explosion going off. Just a thought.

Edited April 17, 2017 by zzzNitro
Added an Animation concern

[main_antagonist]

On 18/04/2017 at 2:05 AM, DeadScream said:

So basically on mobile missions the walking simulator would be intensified ? 

How about a heat stack system which unlocks WoF only after a while ? So people will finally get to... aiming at stuff ? 

 

You joined my "nerf and buff" thread just to tell me "hey come see my buff thread, I don't care if Embers ruin every single Exterminate pub :D"  x) 

 

I kinda like your idea though, on higher levels it would be nice for Ember.

Don't misquote me please @DeadScream

 

 

On 18/04/2017 at 2:49 AM, zzzNitro said:

If anyone is familiar with Dota maybe they can see the similarity with Lina's Fiery Soul, a passive that stacks used spells to give physical buffs, taking that and using the bushfire logic by @main_antagonist while following @ShadowTony suggestion of 18 stacks max I would say that in order to prevent abuse and AFKing a good alternative is to buff Ember's additional damage, so faster movement by stack (let's say 8% each), faster firerate for primaries (maybe 5% per stack?), higher status proc for secondaries (7% per stack) and/or attack speed for meele(10%?). That in my opinion would be a good incentive for 1.- Use her kit more and 2.- Mod weapons for sinergy with her kit while 3.- Giving no benefit to AFKers.

Edit: By the way, is any of the other Ember players bothered by the fact that Fireblast and WoF have a similar animation? Wouldn't Fireblast look a lot better with a releasing ki sort of animation? Like an internal explosion going off. Just a thought.

I think that's a nice concept :)

 

On 18/04/2017 at 1:59 AM, Xekrin said:

A half-hearted attempt at a better mechanic for such a concept would be that 'zones' slowly fill up with excess energy (or the reverse are depleted of air/energy/void/whatever), so after a certain point either Ember's abilities gain extra damage that slowly drains away.  

Either that or her abilities are at full strength for only a certain duration in any particular area before the area requires time to recharge/refill.

Upon moving to a new area, her strength is renewed. Thereby remaining in one area too long turns her blazing flames into little matchstick fires until she moves to a new location effectively refreshing her power.

I dunno something like that.  I like the visual of bushfires spreading, and rather wish our fires did the same when being ignited.  I just don't like the idea of constant movement being the only way to maintain it.

Maybe the cooldown period should be around 30 seconds for a 20 meter radius or something.  You can remain in a 20 meter area for 30 seconds, moving or not and slowly gain stacks over time, after 30 seconds they decay.  Moving to a new area within 30 seconds maintains and refreshes the stacks keeping the ability at full strength.

Although I feel that is rather a lot of effort to go through for a single ability.  May as well redo her entire kit and have everything work off of it, like Nidus.

I'm definitely open to the idea of moving fire patches, perhaps there could be a rework for fireblast and world on fire to spread more flame patches?

[Jochcio]

Ember WoF is already cancerus enough at lower levels even with the cap, in my opinion it definitely doesn't need a buff likely this one, maybe something that would let it scale a little better, not something that will basically let players bulletjup through the map without even noticing enemies existence (the only thing left is pile of burned corpses) 

Edited April 22, 2017 by Jochcio

[main_antagonist]

6 hours ago, Jochcio said:

Ember WoF is already cancerus enough at lower levels even with the cap, in my opinion it definitely doesn't need a buff likely this one, maybe something that would let it scale a little better, not something that will basically let players bulletjup through the map without even noticing enemies existence (the only thing left is pile of burned corpses) 

I think you've got the wrong idea.