Did Valkyr Prime's trailer just confirm the sentience of warframes?

[Toppien]

On 12/3/2017 at 1:08 PM, SilentMobius said:

We are child soldiers who were involved in the death of our own parents and the downfall of a whole civilization, we have plenty of ambiguity already. What we didn't have and don't need is "Welp, you're all evil now and always were, enjoy!"

We literally have a created race (The Sentients) and the "Kuva persona" (Possibly from the void) if we want to explore consciousness and self-awareness. The last thing we need is a solid reason to not play the game due to a game mechanic being inherently and irredeemably more evil that the "bad guys"

It's author-fiat-railroading over the most basic of player choice and motivation.

well, they just recently hired a writer for the story...so things could get more interesting from now on, tho i kinda like where this is going, if warframes are made of experimented humans, that would lead to the next mission being about how the warframe suffers, gains self awareness and works with his operator in a new cooperative/resentive relationship

how we dont know if waframes are made from the bodies of the zariman adults? O_o

Edited March 15, 2017 by Toppien

[SilentMobius]

Just now, Toppien said:

how the warframe suffers, gains self awareness and works with his operator in a new cooperative/resentive relationship

Which of the stable of almost 50 Warframe will we do a one-boy-and-his-dog story with? What about the Warframes we've built and sold, what about duplicates of the same Warframe...

... how about when a new Warframe comes out after this supposed reveal, how to we justify the cloning of a tortured sapient being once all that becomes known.

... what about new players who do this quest before they get some of the basic Warframes, why do they go through the trouble of collecting Warframe BPs just to torture another being into existence.

This notion of a "plotline" is at odds with the most basic progress mechanism the game has. No amount of "oh but they like it really" or "But now they lurve us" is going to work, not the way that Warframes acquisition and use is set up, not for ~50 different Warframes.

As Steve said in Devstream 22 Warframes are "Gear" that is how the game treats them, suits in a wardrobe, waiting to be used or sold.

 

 

[Crashen]

There is no reason warframes have to be sapient to be "alive". They could be exactly what they seem like, biological machines with pre-programmed, rudimentary 'personalities' designed to create a fascimile of a real being. 

A warframe is loaded with a preset AI that allows it to function on a basic level, and makes it easier for the operator to jump in and take control. Without the true intelligence of the operator, the warframe isnt really sapient, just following a series of preset behavioral routines.

Now, that isnt to say that given time, experience, random chance or plot convenient mishap, a warframe couldnt experience emergent behavior. A real personality and intelligence forming.

This could be what happened with Stalker, and he could have found some way to trigger this change in other warframes. Probably by subjecting the frame to extreme torture, making it "awaken" in an attempt to protect itself. Who knows what would happen to an operator's mind if their warframe gained true sapience during transferance. This would explain their names (Misery, Angst). 

Valkyr could even have been created by the Orokin specifically to test the limits and toe that line between artificial intelligence and actual intelligence. 

Edited March 15, 2017 by Crashen

[Blakrana]

15 hours ago, EmptyDevil said:

That is an interesting thought. Children do have a more pliable mind than adults, it adapts much more easily than an adult's mind would. I would assume constantly absorbing information like a sponge, readily adapting to new stimuli at a better rate, could be why the children were completely unaffected by the Void madness.

If that's how it works, the question then becomes why the Void impacts neurology at all.

But, as already said, we're in conjecture at the moment.

[Toppien]

1 hour ago, SilentMobius said:

As Steve said in Devstream 22 Warframes are "Gear" that is how the game treats them, suits in a wardrobe, waiting to be used or sold.

 

 

welp things change, and on a twiter they asked how hunhow in the second dream quest "confirms warframes are just a bunch of gear, and how the waframe moved on its own" then the response was

"thats what hunhow tought but he was surprised isnt it?"

so, developers are going to make the warframes sentient, suffering puppets, you like it or not

the question is, how is that going to work gameplay wise, and im confident they'ill make it work

Edited March 15, 2017 by Toppien

[SilentMobius]

4 hours ago, Toppien said:

welp things change, and on a twiter they asked how hunhow in the second dream quest "confirms warframes are just a bunch of gear, and how the waframe moved on its own" then the response was

"thats what hunhow tought but he was surprised isnt it?"

so, developers are going to make the warframes sentient, suffering puppets, you like it or not

the question is, how is that going to work gameplay wise, and im confident they'ill make it work

There are many, many more explanations that could "surprise" Hunhow. Especially given how the Sentients may well have faced the infestation before they faces the Tenno so really shouldn't have been surprised at something as simple as "It's motive because infestation"

In fact the only thing the Sentients really don't understand, is The Void, and we have just had a story quest involving some kind of persona coming from the Void.

So no, we currently know nothing other than how bad an idea sentient/sapient Warframes would be.

Edited March 15, 2017 by SilentMobius

[Toppien]

8 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

There are many, many more explanations that could "surprise" Hunhow. Especially given how the Sentients may well have faced the infestation before they faces the Tenno so really shouldn't have been surprised at something as simple as "It's motive because infestation"

In fact the only thing the Sentients really don't understand, is The Void, and we have just had a story quest involving some kind of persona coming from the Void.

So no, we currently know nothing other than how bad an idea sentient/sapient Warframes would be.

and what about the acolytes? they strongly imply that warframes can exist without an operator, in most of their quotes they adress to the warframe, telling them how they are beyond repair, how they are still enslaved by the tenno, and that is already in game stuff, not just rummors.

that reafirms the rhino prime's lore entry, warframes are made of infested tissue (probably infested humans) that somehow got their will severed for tenno use, if you read the ancient imprint it makes clear that infested share a collective mind from all of their victims, the infested tissue inside warframes have sentience but is "tamed" as they say on the valkyr prime trailer, so you see, theres enough hints to make it pretty clear, but you still refuse to accept it

[Kaotyke]

46 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

There are many, many more explanations that could "surprise" Hunhow. Especially given how the Sentients may well have faced the infestation before they faces the Tenno so really shouldn't have been surprised at something as simple as "It's motive because infestation"

In fact the only thing the Sentients really don't understand, is The Void, and we have just had a story quest involving some kind of persona coming from the Void.

So no, we currently know nothing other than how bad an idea sentient/sapient Warframes would be.

I fear this will fall into "necessary evil" category.

OR Helminth will be the one providing the Tenno with the infested materials, making the Warframes a part of it. Like Hunhow and his Fragments.

[helix.hex]

Evangelion nuff  said.  Those things may seem like robot but give them the chance all he'll breaks loose

[DatDarkOne]

5 hours ago, Crashen said:

There is no reason warframes have to be sapient to be "alive". They could be exactly what they seem like, biological machines with pre-programmed, rudimentary 'personalities' designed to create a fascimile of a real being. 

A warframe is loaded with a preset AI that allows it to function on a basic level, and makes it easier for the operator to jump in and take control. Without the true intelligence of the operator, the warframe isnt really sapient, just following a series of preset behavioral routines.

Now, that isnt to say that given time, experience, random chance or plot convenient mishap, a warframe couldnt experience emergent behavior. A real personality and intelligence forming.

This could be what happened with Stalker, and he could have found some way to trigger this change in other warframes. Probably by subjecting the frame to extreme torture, making it "awaken" in an attempt to protect itself. Who knows what would happen to an operator's mind if their warframe gained true sapience during transferance. This would explain their names (Misery, Angst). 

Valkyr could even have been created by the Orokin specifically to test the limits and toe that line between artificial intelligence and actual intelligence. 

Haha, This is what I have said/mentioned earlier during my Guyver comparison.  Thanks for broadening on that concept.

[BornWithTeeth]

18 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

There are many, many more explanations that could "surprise" Hunhow. Especially given how the Sentients may well have faced the infestation before they faces the Tenno so really shouldn't have been surprised at something as simple as "It's motive because infestation"

In fact the only thing the Sentients really don't understand, is The Void, and we have just had a story quest involving some kind of persona coming from the Void.

So no, we currently know nothing other than how bad an idea sentient/sapient Warframes would be.

You know, there's a funny thing there. Ever since the Second Dream, people have been using the breaking of the War blade as 'proof' that Warframes are sapient, 'proof' that Warframes are people, 'proof' that the Warframes are autonomous, despite the situation being wildly sketchy in terms of its actual details.

 

Disregarding that scene for just a moment, all the other evidence tells us that Warframes in their 'natural' state are uncontrolled savage killing machines, and that a Tenno using the Void link is needed to keep them stable. That's what we get from this trailer and from the Rhino Prime Codex. 

 

Now. Warframe as fully sapient and autonomous agent is a very, very different thing from Warframe as sentient but animalistic killer.

 

For one thing, if Warframes are sapient, i.e. Warframes are people, then making them and using them is a war crime.

 

 

Anyway, we don't need the Second Dream sequence of breaking War to indicate that Warframes are sentient animals. That's presented elsewhere in the lore. What that scene allows people to argue for is that Warframes are sapient, because the breaking of War was clearly an intelligent, tactical decision. What Silent Möbius just reminded me, though, is the outcome of the War Within, which showed us the possible existence of another Void based intelligence, which communicates with the Tenno after they regain their deeper power set, and feels that the Tenno 'owes' them. The War Within, as a quest, also displayed precisely zero signs of Warframe autonomous activity. In fact, we see Transference in action for the first time, and it is clear that the Tenno is in direct manual/somatic control.

 

Up until now, people have been presented with and presenting two options:

A - The Warframe acted to destroy War, and thus Warframes are sapient.

B - The Operator used a last gasp of power to control the frame and destroy War, and thus it is not proof of Warframe sapience.

 

Can we get an option C?

An unknown Void entity had been somehow locked out of the Tenno, but has been acting to mediate their power. This entity controlled the Warframe when the Tenno couldn't.

 

 

Now, this is obviously far fetched, but it may have more direct evidence for it than the theory of fully sapient Warframes. After all, remember that we have hard evidence for the existence of a previously unknown Void entity, whatever it turns out to be, because it spoke to the player character at the end of the War Within. We do not have any hard evidence for Warframes possessing human level self awareness and intelligence, only evidence for them being animalistic killing machines when uncontrolled.

Edited March 16, 2017 by BornWithTeeth

[Blakrana]

19 hours ago, Kaotyke said:

I fear this will fall into "necessary evil" category.

If every thing we do is a 'necessary evil', at what point does it simply make us necessarily evil?

What real value is there then to having a morality system, even if it is vague right now, when the narrative people seem to favour leaves any attempt at being 'good' as highly hypocritical at best? What point is there encouraging player based self perception, when we're considering a scenario that essentially typecasts all of us in a very strict way, particularly a way without any player control beyond 'don't play'?

All 'good' one does is thus an illusion, a lie we're constantly telling ourselves justifies what we do; the path to zealotry essentially. Sure. In some ways such a narrative could be compelling...but in a loot driven game with great swathes of time between story development, it's a hard sell when it means we'd all have any character we'd established rewritten irrevocably in the process.

2 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

An unknown Void entity had been somehow locked out of the Tenno, but has been acting to mediate their power. This entity controlled the Warframe when the Tenno couldn't.

Now, this is obviously far fetched, but it may have more direct evidence for it than the theory of fully sapient Warframes. After all, remember that we have hard evidence for the existence of a previously unknown Void entity, whatever it turns out to be, because it spoke to the player character at the end of the War Within. We do not have any hard evidence for Warframes possessing human level self awareness and intelligence, only evidence for them being animalistic killing machines when uncontrolled.

Not sure if it's any real ground to play with but considering the Void seems to have some inherent effect on biological structures...indeed, if the Void is over all responsible for the Zariman crew turning near feral from what we can tell, could it be also at play with Warframes via their Infested component? Could this be why Helminth expresses fear of the 'Void demon', as the Infestation can't resist the Void's domination anymore than humans could?

Entirely crazy conjecture territory, but there is the big swirling mass of Void in the Somatic chamber after all...thus there's a window for the Void to be at work.

Can't be sure either way at this point, but then the question becomes just what agenda the Void entity really has, should it be something more. Maybe it felt like humbling Hunhow? Or it has...goals for the Tenno, now it's 'found them' again perhaps?

Apologies for going on, as always.

[DatDarkOne]

4 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Can we get an option C?

An unknown Void entity had been somehow locked out of the Tenno, but has been acting to mediate their power. This entity controlled the Warframe when the Tenno couldn't.

I like this idea. 

[(XBOX)Variiiz]

Not sure if anyone has said this as I haven't read through this entire thread. I believe in the beginning of the trailer, Valkyr was being controlled by her operator (obviously). Valkyr seemed a little more calm than what people would think a berserker would be. As soon as that sentient powered beam hit Valkyr it disrupted the transference and Valkyr acted on her own, seeming much more violent. It is hinted that Warframes are savages/animals. So I think this would be another confirmation on their sentience.

[SilentMobius]

22 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Can we get an option C?

An unknown Void entity had been somehow locked out of the Tenno, but has been acting to mediate their power. This entity controlled the Warframe when the Tenno couldn't.

Or even:

D) there is nothing natively living in the void but it's corrupting influence can create a separate power hungry persona in sapient creatures, this persona was weak/suppressed until the event of TWW but was threatened by the Stalker-driven-by-Hunhow and thus pushed to use the Tenno's suppressed transference abilities to control the damaged Warframe and fend off the threat.

Hell, maybe there are living things in the void, but they are only "born" by a sapient creature acting as a "host consciousness" for the growing alternate persona. Maybe the Acolytes are talking to _that_ void-persona and trying to coax it out. Maybe the stalker is what happened when a Tenno goes "Full Void" and the void-self sakes over, Maybe thats why the Stalker hates us but didn't want to kill us without Hunhow egging him on.

Also my previous objection to a third "void ghost" entity was the fact it was never mentioned anywhere (when it would have been had it existed) but if it was being deliberately suppressed, that may explain it's absence from the story) Also a single fight between your human-self and your growing void-daemon self is a pretty interesting mechanic that actually _returns_ agency to the player rather than removing it.

Also that might explain why the Lotus just kept us in the dream, as a sentient she wouldn't understand the void-self at all, all she knew is that Tenno left outside who were aware of what they were slowly went mad (If we consider the Stalker a Tenno)

It certainly would make dramatic sense for the saviour at the end of TSD be the voice that talks to us in TWW.

I'm not pushing any specific variant of any of this, but I do want people to realise that things are far from settled.

There are lots of possible explanations, certainly more than simply casting the Tenno retroactively as mindrapist slavemasters in a game of snuff pokemon

Edited March 17, 2017 by SilentMobius

[DatLoon]

19 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

 

-snip-

There are lots of possible explanations, certainly more than simply casting the Tenno retroactively as mindrapist slavemasters in a game of snuff pokemon

Not sure if I interrupt whole convo but I have read nearly entire thread and I have several things to say to you as to the most aggressive opposer to idea of sentient warframes.

But I would be VERY glad to participate in other's suggestions/critic/discuss towards my comment of anybody will find it interesting.

At first. Casting real life morals into world where most of real rules don't work is impractical. Our (in-game) system is in constant war position, and Tenno seem to be peacemakers with big guns or mercs (invasions). All of those crimes are not allowed. Plus our whole existence was a mistake, you know.

Returning to details. Real life wars would leave both Corpus and Grineer without elemental human resource, rather earlier without supplies, bc even such cheap resource should produce itself, and that takes time. If we really would kill such amounts of people - we would (one day) stay in empty Solar System with sentients and Stalker on par. Pretty tragic but feels bs a little. If to calculate numbers of people we kill as just game numbers and we kill, as example, x10 less, it still means we continuesly do our duty as assassins and mercs without knowing why we kill, and that goes vs all probable morals we could imply with real world. Not every grineer soldier wanted to kill specifically us. Not every corpus soldier wanted to tame specifically us. But we continue to kill and capture them without any possible sollution it can ever end (or end with ending of alive beings we need to kill).

But.

Our entire life expierence is based on this. We are child soldiers, if you have read about those irl, you know how it goes. We don't know anything except this variant of existence. We had few possible sentient beings we could trust, its Lotus, Tenshin and Ordis. So we did because we needed them, we needed reason to exist. We thought we could completely trust Tenshin, but he has his own demons. We thought we could completely trust Lotus but she had her own plans on us and we still can't be sure she is completely honest with us. We thought we could completely trust Ordis but what, who is he, basically? He is imprint of personality, tortured and twisted by wars, by time, by revenge and pain. He was calm just bc they made him forget. That was his punishment, his eternal rock on the neck.

So what we have, basically? We have warframes. Our consciousness was in warframe for many years before we realised or remembered we are something different. Warframes became part of us because Void and Orokin made us and them incomplete. They never betrayed us. Together we fuse into something completed, into somebody who can fight, can control him/herself and harm others when it's necessary (by the way I am more than interested in alternative looting variants, like expanding new systems). Both TSD and TWW showed that we count our warframes as precious and something (or, in terms of discussion, somebody) what or who we don't want to lose. In TWW we're risking our lifes specifically because we can't lose them. Because both us and them, we are incomplete, and together we are whole being. 

Now about slavery.

Only one human here mentioned Evangelion and two barely mentioned Guyver. Both those franchises can easily correlate with our situation and give pretty nice explanation why this is not that simple.

Evangelions are not humans from physiological point but if Lilith gave birth to humanity so Evas are mix of angels and humanity with humans 'souls inside. Warframes are mix of humans and infested. Evangelions are tamed in armor but even with it they needed not only synchronize but to accept pilots, without it they will try to kill pilot (Eva 03) or refuse to do anything (Eva 00 and Rei). Stalker and company could be those "ghostless" (sorry for GitS pun) organisms who rejected operators and swallowed them or killed. Our warframes accepted us, that's why we are still alive. Also, I think, having many warframes is completely game mechanic. Operators mention only one warframe and their phrases seem to be based on that point. In lore mechanic we have one. If I am not mistaken, Guyver armor needs that acceptance too for normal functioning.

And that makes us to return to words in trailer. Orokin never seen us or them as something alive, we were barely tools, warframes were barely things. After Orokin realised what warframes are capable of - they were afraid of that power. That's why they think Operators barely tame warframes. Because Orokin treated warframes as tools. They never tried to understand what's left in those bodies. They wanted to destroy Tenno right after they realised their potential. We, Operators, are in constant transference with warframes. If they are sentient at least on a bit (and we suppose they are) - they know what we think, what we are, they know us as good as nobody else, bc when we are One. We care about them, they care about us. Without them we were "monsters nobody could control". Remember what happened with Margulis. Without us they were alive sarcophaguses or same as us, monsters nobody could control bc of infested nature which dominated over mind. That's not slavery. It's (even if forced by situation) metaphysical symbiosis which keeping us alive and gives us possibility to controul our existence. Probably (in much more sinple terms and without life danger) that's something what real humans would call by finding their half if we would return to trivial feeling processes. And I mean not love only, please, stop Plus, that symbiosis can turn in both sides, nobody knows how long until warframe can start to give us traces of ideas we never had. Our human nature can awake their human nature in unexpected ways. That would be interesting (separared) idea or quest and discuss.

Nobody mentioned here warframes could accept us or agree with our decisions, especially when we kill beings who made them and left like this. Also, Grineer wanted operators for own profit and result is death, Corpus wanted warframes for own profit and result is worse than death. Orokin - nuff said. Reasons are probably too simple but we are not phylosophers. We are child soldiers.

Ugh. By the way my whole theory doesn't cancel moments when there will be more "ghostless" warframes because they rejected operators sooner or later. Acolytes and Stalker are most powerful ones and there can be much more weak or middle capable warframes who just try to find their place after awaking. Also, since Acolytes and Stalker are moving and called under certain emotions, they also can be results of warframes and Operators whose link was corrupted or where Operator basically lost his/her mind and became obsessive by emotions or traumas, destroying his/her psychological state. If that's true symbiosis as I suppose, warframe would try to fix that damage by replacing broken "parts". We saw possible results. 

As postcriptum, I don't remember this as full canon, but there were many hints and possible proofs that  Tenno means not only us, Void children. It means us and warframe. Together we are Tenno.

 

Edited March 18, 2017 by Emephire
second language issues

[Rolunde]

Skipping way ahead here but I think it is possible for Warframes to have sentience while not having that be omg-so-dark-its-evil.

The Frames could simply have an animalistic level of sentience akin to a Dog or Horse.

To put it very simply both can be trained for war and to work with people.

The Dog alongside and the Horse in a literal sense with the person. Human+Horse Warfare goes way way back.

The Horse takes its directions from the rider, while still being a living thing unto itself.

OR we can go much more "genre" and say that Operator+Warframe is a Fusion process (ala Dragonball).

The Frame having a very base level of sentience would mean the Operator is the dominant aspect.

With Valkyr Prime this could work so that in the trailer the Sentient Cannon greatly weakens the bond which lets the Frame more or less run rampant.

Which we would also later see then when Val is captured and tortured. Everything that happens there gives Valkyr more of a sense of self and so it has a stronger presence in the fusion. 

When the Operator "activates Hysteria" its basically more of the rage monster that is Valkyr come into play.

Just some thoughts.

Cheers!
~R~

[SilentMobius]

7 hours ago, Emephire said:

Also, I think, having many warframes is completely game mechanic. Operators mention only one warframe and their phrases seem to be based on that point. In lore mechanic we have one.

I'll respond to the rest later when I have time but this is demonstrably incorrect, the Limbo theorem is explicit in the in-world statement that our operator will "occupy" the Warframe we have just built. The Lotus herself tells us to "master all the warframes" in the main trailer for the game. It is an in-world concept, we hunt-out parts, build, use and sell Warframe. Aquisition of Warframes for our operator is 25% of the total progress mechanic of the game (Companions, weapons, archwings) and much more by the amount contributed. It is a massive part of the story progression of the game (Mesa, Limbo, Titania, Valkyr) it would be tremendously bad design if none of those actions could actually be described as real events.

As far as Evangellion goes, imagine if the children _after_ they found out what the Evas were were expected to go an find more parts and build new Evas to use, enslaving more souls in the process. It would be horrific and wouldn't even be an opportunity for "moral debate" in this game as that behavior isn't "optional" It's the primary progress mechanism in the game!

Find ancient blueprints, create sentient and/or sapient life forms, force then to act as techno-organic puppets and dispose of them when you find something better... to gain XP to get a level

Edited March 18, 2017 by SilentMobius

[Vafthrudnir]

Sentient Powercell :O

Edited March 18, 2017 by giovanniluca

[DatLoon]

2 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

I'll respond to the rest later when I have time but this is demonstrably incorrect, the Limbo theorem is explicit in the in-world statement that our operator will "occupy" the Warframe we have just built. The Lotus herself tells us to "master all the warframes" in the main trailer for the game. It is an in-world concept, we hunt-out parts, build, use and sell Warframe. Aquisition of Warframes for our operator is 25% of the total progress mechanic of the game (Companions, weapons, archwings) and much more by the amount contributed. It is a massive part of the story progression of the game (Mesa, Limbo, Titania, Valkyr) it would be tremendously bad design if none of those actions could actually be described as real events.

As far as Evangellion goes, imagine if the children _after_ they found out what the Evas were were expected to go an find more parts and build new Evas to use, enslaving more souls in the process. It would be horrific and wouldn't even be an opportunity for "moral debate" in this game as that behavior isn't "optional" It's the primary progress mechanism in the game!

Find ancient blueprints, create sentient and/or sapient life forms, force then to act as techno-organic puppets and dispose of them when you find something better... to gain XP to get a level

Nobody said we sell them to Corpus or something. Probably like with Kubrow we still can give them to Lotus. What she does with them - another question. 

Doh. Why we even should discuss morals in this game. I mean, there are much more games where ppl kill each other for fun and nobody even tries to stop them

About children. Shinji was usual child so he reacted accordingly. Asuka was with big trauma and complexes so she reacted on this as a contest (most needed child), Rei... Another opera as ppl say in my language. But we also have Mari. I know that's rebuilds are like marketing sweet to reach new generations and bla-bla but after Mari appeared in canon manga, she became canon. She piloted 3 (if  08 alpha is not same as beta so 4) different Evas and probably had full aknowledge how things work, she was in different bases, she met different people. She was teached to react like this. If Operators were teached to react on warframes in certain way so they weren't teached by any morals why it's bad. I mean. From point of game only one who feels bad is you. Not you exactly, you-as-player. If this is what developers exactly wanted to do - lets imagine it - to place you in position of war child without morals but only twisted understanding of reality, trust issues, body disphoria and life-or-death dependency from probably centient beings they have symbiosis with - nobody would care, it was an original idea where you are protagonist but certainly kilometers far from hero. I have zero problems with this and still think that's if you choose you can stay with only one warframe. Lotus showed us she has her own concerns about us and every statement she has can be counted as something with second meaning, including her wish to expand quantity of available warframes. So we are asked or forced but we can avoid this if we want. It still counts Operator risking life exactly because of warframe so I continue to stay on theory of symbiosis and dependency. Mari's case shows that's depending from capabilities we can afford several warframes. If to bring human factor - many of us have that exact frame suitting us as we wish and we spend most of time with him or her, Operator can feel same. You can say it's no more than machine or slavery things but don't forget, nobody from operators have any clue what that means towards themselves. If that moral coordinate doesn't exist on their life radars - they can't change it until somebody or something will show them. Nobody said they would though.  As I said before, Operators without warframes are uncontrollable balls of  destructive energy, warframes without Operators are beasts or alive sarcophaguses. It means that's cutting link probably would be "mercy" for you. Not for them. They will lose everything despite how strong you or somebody else want to think it will be "bad" to leave things as they are. Until now we didn't have any exits to cut link between warframe and Operator without destructive and dangerous consequences.

Would be glad to hear answer on rest of my previous post.

 

Edited March 18, 2017 by Emephire
typos

[Toppien]

22 hours ago, giovanniluca said:

Sentient Powercell :O

yup, this damn corpus are using sentient remains to power their weapons, poor basterds, it will back fire on their faces U_U

[(PSN)Lowk721]

23 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

Find ancient blueprints, create sentient and/or sapient life forms, force then to act as techno-organic puppets and dispose of them when you find something better... to gain XP to get a level

I mean Tenno go around destroying kubrow homes for their young. Then genetically altering said creature. Then raises it to fight for them. Which occasionally leads to the creature fighting against its own kind. Then puts them in stasis when they don't need them. If most warframes are as animalistic as rhino lore indicates well...

Using a less intelligent organic lifeform as a fighting machine isn't even new as far as modern humanity goes.

Moral wise, the warframe getting something from the symbiosis is really the only way things would be considered "good". Like maybe the frames feed off void stuff. Making it sort of like Man feeds dog, dog protects man sort of deal.

 

[EmptyDevil]

On 3/18/2017 at 2:34 PM, SilentMobius said:

I'll respond to the rest later when I have time but this is demonstrably incorrect, the Limbo theorem is explicit in the in-world statement that our operator will "occupy" the Warframe we have just built. The Lotus herself tells us to "master all the warframes" in the main trailer for the game. It is an in-world concept, we hunt-out parts, build, use and sell Warframe. Aquisition of Warframes for our operator is 25% of the total progress mechanic of the game (Companions, weapons, archwings) and much more by the amount contributed. It is a massive part of the story progression of the game (Mesa, Limbo, Titania, Valkyr) it would be tremendously bad design if none of those actions could actually be described as real events.

As far as Evangellion goes, imagine if the children _after_ they found out what the Evas were were expected to go an find more parts and build new Evas to use, enslaving more souls in the process. It would be horrific and wouldn't even be an opportunity for "moral debate" in this game as that behavior isn't "optional" It's the primary progress mechanism in the game!

Find ancient blueprints, create sentient and/or sapient life forms, force then to act as techno-organic puppets and dispose of them when you find something better... to gain XP to get a level

What if the 'mind' of the Warframe is an imprint of a facet of the Operator's mind, being ingrained/copied into the Infested flesh that makes them? A part of the Operator that possibly gets assimilated by the Infested flesh, each time they use Transference. Since the Operator is technically 'becoming' an Infested lifeform(Warframe) via Transference as a proxy, coupled with their Void infused mind, it could possibly make them safe from total assimilation. Each 'personality' or theme the Warframes have could be representations of what the Operators dreamed of doing/being while they were asleep. In short, DE could make it so that the Warframes are simply another part of the Operator that is split off, becoming an entity of its own, but still connected. This would be morally ambiguous IMO.

[Rolunde]

2 hours ago, EmptyDevil said:

What if the 'mind' of the Warframe is an imprint of a facet of the Operator's mind, being ingrained/copied into the Infested flesh that makes them? A part of the Operator that possibly gets assimilated by the Infested flesh, each time they use Transference. Since the Operator is technically 'becoming' an Infested lifeform(Warframe) via Transference as a proxy, coupled with their Void infused mind, it could possibly make them safe from total assimilation. Each 'personality' or theme the Warframes have could be representations of what the Operators dreamed of doing/being while they were asleep. In short, DE could make it so that the Warframes are simply another part of the Operator that is split off, becoming an entity of its own, but still connected. This would be morally ambiguous IMO.

 

Sure, the Warframe starts out as a Tabula Rasa. 

Operator imprints on it.

"Imprinting" in-game basically being "ranks it up to 30" 

I suppose if you want to get really meta then adding forma increases the imprint/bond even further. 

[(PSN)THE_HUNTER96929]

On 13/03/2017 at 2:53 AM, bluepheonix13 said:

Then how do you explain the "Tenno tamed, but only just" line?

Tenno, tamed, but only just?