"Multishot" - discussion about how it works vs its' name

[ChuckMaverick]

9 minutes ago, h3xuss said:

but then the point I wanted to make is: Don't call it multi-shot if the name only captures a positive result rather than it's actual functionality.

The stat name 'multishot' was assigned before rivens existed, and before it was possible for the stat to go below 1.0, it was appropriate at the time.

If you feel that the name of the stat should be changed now, then there will need to be a snappy (let's say no more than two words) name to use in its place that makes more sense than the current 'multishot'.

15 minutes ago, (PS4)Kawai-Senpai said:

While I don't agree that it's a low tactic, I do think a multishot stat* in weapon stats would be a nice feature. Especially since I'm currently confused as to how it works on my Aklex prime with the riven I have. The riven plus the other 2 multishot mods puts my multishot percent to over 300 but I swear I see five shots come out sometimes.

I believe multishot was one of the stats that was talked about on the last Devstream as being a possible addition to the UI.

What is the multishot bonus on your Aklex riven?

[h3xuss]

Was close to -90% or so, which at the point I was like, hey - screw the multishot, I'm going to build a hand cannon - one slow deadly shot, it's gonna be awesome. Turned out I was wrong. Had to re-roll. I'm of course either for making a multishot a separate instance that can or not appear, but would be separate / have a minimum value of 1 instance per shot even when the reduction goes to infinity... or making a weapon behave in a different way that would create more depth to the game, without rendering the weapon useless.

[ChuckMaverick]

17 minutes ago, h3xuss said:

Was close to -90% or so, which at the point I was like, hey - screw the multishot, I'm going to build a hand cannon - one slow deadly shot, it's gonna be awesome. Turned out I was wrong. Had to re-roll. I'm of course either for making a multishot a separate instance that can or not appear, but would be separate / have a minimum value of 1 instance per shot even when the reduction goes to infinity... or making a weapon behave in a different way that would create more depth to the game, without rendering the weapon useless.

The "what was your bonus?" question was for @(PS4)Kawai-Senpai, apologies if that wasn't clear.

But you'd never use a -multishot riven without also using a +multishot mod to compensate, much like we often do with corrupted mods.

Accepted wisdom is that riven mods with a negative also have stronger values for their positive bonuses, although it is much better to get a negative that has little effect on the weapon in question.

[(PSN)watt4hem]

Multi = many

Multi >< less

+ Multishot = many/more shots

- multishot = less shots

Normal shot = 1

Less shots = <1

So yeah, it's not wrong

Edited March 13, 2017 by (PS4)watt4hem

[(PSN)Kawai-Senpai]

49 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

The stat name 'multishot' was assigned before rivens existed, and before it was possible for the stat to go below 1.0, it was appropriate at the time.

If you feel that the name of the stat should be changed now, then there will need to be a snappy (let's say no more than two words) name to use in its place that makes more sense than the current 'multishot'.

I believe multishot was one of the stats that was talked about on the last Devstream as being a possible addition to the UI.

What is the multishot bonus on your Aklex riven?

https://imgur.com/gallery/X4RRl

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[ChuckMaverick]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Kawai-Senpai said:

https://imgur.com/gallery/X4RRl

I'm assuming the other two multishot mods you referred to are Barrel Diffusion (+120%) and Lethal Torrent (+60%), so together with the +139.5% from the riven your Aklex has +319.5% multishot on top of the base 100%, or 419.5% total multishot.

Your Aklex will fire at least four rounds each shot with a 19.5% chance of firing a fifth.

[(PSN)Kawai-Senpai]

10 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

I'm assuming the other two multishot mods you referred to are Barrel Diffusion (+120%) and Lethal Torrent (+60%), so together with the +139.5% from the riven your Aklex has +319.5% multishot on top of the base 100%, or 419.5% total multishot.

Your Aklex will fire at least four rounds each shot with a 19.5% chance of firing a fifth.

Ohh okay, I didn't realize you add in the base 100

[bluepheonix13]

Oh my, here we go, long post incoming.

 

8 hours ago, h3xuss said:

Okay, look - you're clearly missing the point.

You said:

11 hours ago, h3xuss said:

I am talking about human logic and how you guys think it should behave.

as well as

12 hours ago, h3xuss said:

- snip -

What do you guys think?

And even the title says "discussion about how it works vs its' name".

Now I explain my own reasoning ("human logic"; coincides with your so-called "game logic"), why the way multishot works fits its name and you tell me I am missing the point?

Wait, what?

 

8 hours ago, h3xuss said:

By saying 'game logic' I wanted to say that "in game's perspective" or "by taking into consideration on how the game actually works"

What you seem to forget is that the game is being developed by humans and it follows the vision of its creators, therefore it is by definition "human logic".

8 hours ago, h3xuss said:

... the multishot does behave in the way you described, however - in my humble opinion, the "multi shot" feature should be a separate instance, a chance, if you may, that performs additional task. So by having a negative number on it, I would assume that I would simply be denied of the chance of spawning an extra bullet, but not lose an ability to fight completely. This is a disadvantage that renders any weapon useless and is not, in any way, a creative solution to enrich the game world. I think it was a miscalculated result of a poor decision maker that led to the existence of this very post.

And I humbly disagree, because I think it actually is a creative solution and because I think there should be a reason for negative numbers to exist. These negative absurdities, that render a weapon useless or almost useless made me laugh more than once. I'm also starting to think that what you actually want is to not have negative multishot/damage/etc. on rivens, but that would be a story for another time.

8 hours ago, h3xuss said:

So, to simplify this even further to you, Mr. bluepheonix - I don't care how it works from the technical, game mechanics point of view, I find it unsatisfying and... for a lack of a better word - dumb. Creating obstacles and restrictions within the game that should not exist

And can you tell me why? We can all agree that obstacles and restrictions need to exist within a game for it to be interesting, so why exactly should these not exist? The only appearance these negative values can make is on riven mods and those can be re-rolled or just not used and sold. The game lives from having time or grind-barriers that can be partially or completely skipped with money (that is just their F2P model and it works great IMO), so why do you think this barrier is wrong in contrast to the others in warframe?

8 hours ago, h3xuss said:

and serve as proof of a bad design.

Everybody calls DE out on their "bad design choices", yet the game is still alive and kicking, ever wonder about that?

8 hours ago, h3xuss said:

When I tried to use a phrase "human logic", which you obviously lack

Thanks for the insult btw.

8 hours ago, h3xuss said:

- I wanted people to make an educated comment from their perspectives and not having to limit themselves to how a game currently works.

And I did. Just because I feel the like the game is right, does not mean I am limiting myself or being a white knight for DE. I know they f*** up sometimes and they know that themselves, but because I am on their side for one thing I already lack "human logic" and "limit myself to how a game currently works"?

 

And with that I am outta here, nothing constructive is going to come from this discussion anyway. 

[Zeclem]

12 hours ago, h3xuss said:

It says multishot - meaning extra chance to shoot additional bullets, so logically thinking, negative effect should be LESS chance to shoot additional bullets, so we're left without additional shots, meaning we're shooting regularly?

how does the word "multi" gives you the idea of additional bullets? its not badly named or anything. it does what it says.

[MirageKnight]

14 hours ago, Gelkor said:

Did you know that negative damage rivens can actually make it so you deal no damage whatsoever to enemies with your bullets? The terrible programming here is rampant.

 

14 hours ago, Lakais said:

Multishot is bugged also. And DE is aware and is deliberately unwilling to fix it. Basically multishot was always supposed to take two bullets when it fires two. But the endgame crowd threw a collective fit when that discussion came up. 

Well there's a two step solution to the issue of weapons doing buggy / negative things when using Rivens.

1. Stop using Rivens.

2. Get on DE's case about working on Damage 3.0 / making older weapons more relevant.

[Lakais]

4 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

 

Well there's a two step solution to the issue of weapons doing buggy / negative things when using Rivens.

1. Stop using Rivens.

2. Get on DE's case about working on Damage 3.0 / making older weapons more relevant.

I have never used a Riven. And what I mean by bugged is that Multishot is what coptering was, sort of. As soon as DE started talking about fixing it, the hardcore crowd went ballistic. In fact, Damage 3.0 became a thing BECAUSE of Multishot. Scott was thinking of fixing it, but then the issue was raised (rather vigorously) that it is needed for stupid high level DPS. So the discussion started on how to fix the insane damage scaling (and armor scaling) without trivializing the game but also without making the high end people throw a fit because the numbers aren't as high next to enemy names. 

Coptering also couldn't be just fixed (it was a bug) without pissing off too many people, so the mobility system of the game had to be remade to compensate for the loss of mobility, as it was called. Turned out great in the end. 

So just like Coptering started the path towards Parkour 2.0, Multishot started off Damage 3.0. Problem is, the damage system is a massive tangled pile of systems. 

Edited March 13, 2017 by Lakais