Will the forgotten ASH ever Be "rereworked"

[Nazrethim]

Just now, SoulEchelon said:

And...what's your point? His passive completely compliments his kit. It's perhaps one of the best passives in the game when coupled with the fact that its warframe specifically uses slash/bleed to do the most damage. Seriously, I do not see how anyone can call a direct damage buff to all of his attack related abilities + a buff to all weapons - primary, secondary, and melee - that uses slash procs "lame".

I don't call that aspect lame, just the fact that it's just a simple damage and duration buff. It's nothing impressive or that you can sort of notice while playing unless you for some reason like to see the exact numbers of damage you are dealing.

[SoulEchelon]

Just now, Nazrethim said:

I don't call that aspect lame, just the fact that it's just a simple damage and duration buff. It's nothing impressive or that you can sort of notice while playing unless you for some reason like to see the exact numbers of damage you are dealing.

The majority of warframes' passives are stat-based as well. Seriously, you're nitpicking. Ash gets the best passive he can get and you're calling it lame because it doesn't "look cool".

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

27 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Play him in Conclave, if you manage to get 10 power kills in a single match vs competent people, I willa ccept Ash is fine.

I play ash in conclave all the time, bladestorm is basically a free kill ability, teleport allows me to catch my enemies by surprise, smokescreen let's me get away from a sticky situation, and shuriken can takeout low health enemies. Now let's talk Warframes with actual conclave problems like nidus and inaros

[Nazrethim]

Just now, SoulEchelon said:

The majority of warframes' passives are stat-based as well. Seriously, you're nitpicking. Ash gets the best passive he can get and you're calling it lame because it doesn't "look cool".

Well, that stems from the fact that DE took a WHOLE DAMN YEAR only to release a half-arsed "revisit" which barely fixed any of the issues (that I pointed before) and shortly after release Nidus, who has double passive (one of them being his mutation, the other the health regen) and then up themselves again by pulling a proper Limbo rework (with a cool passive to boot!) in a fraction of the time they allegedy spent with Ash.

As for how I would like Ash to be reworked, here's my idea (which DOES actually adress nearly everything, including Conclave balancing):

Spoiler

Ash rework:

Passive: Mark of the Assassin.

While aiming, gliding or latching, Ash marks enemies. Marked enemies take 20% extra Finisher and Bleed damage. Mark lasts 10s and uses no energy. Enemies marked are highlighted on the radar. 50m range.

Passive: "Hemorrage": +20% Bleed damage +50% duration

 

Shuriken:

Tap: Ash throws a Shuriken in a straight line, dealing heavy Puncture damage, impaling enemies on walls. Has 3.0 punch trough.

Hold: After holding for 1s, Ash throws a barrage of smaller, seeking shurikens to all marked enemies, dealing Slash damage.

Seeking Shuriken:

 -Tap: removes 100% enemy Armor and ricochets on a surface it can't pass trough up to 3 times.

 -Hold: removes 50% enemy Armor.

Smoke Screen:

Ash creates a cloud of smoke that lasts for 12s (base duration at max ability lvl). Ash is invisible while inside the cloud and for 8s after leaving the cloud. Enemies inside the cloud are blinded and open for Finisher attacks.

Tap: cast at Ash's feet.

Hold (1s): cast at the surface Ash is aiming (20m range max)

Smoke Shadow: Allies who enter/pass trough the cloud are also gain invisibility.

Teleport:

Tap: Ash teleports to the target location, stunning and opening nearby enemies to Finisher attacks. Cost 25 energy.

Hold: Ash goes into a rampage, teleporting and attacking all marked enemies with his currently equiped weapon (essentially current blade storm) for 15 energy (10 if invisible) per enemy.

Fatal Teleport:

 -Refunds 50% of the cost on next kill.

 -Tap: Ash will Finish the nearest enemy instantly, promting a second radial stagger with opening.

 -Hold: Increase Finisher damage 200%

 

Blade Storm:

Ash enters into Blade Storm mode (he pulls his blades out and vents more smoke). Roll, Sidestep and Backspring are replaced by manic-like teleports. On Finisher attacks Ash will rapidly teleport between enemies assassinating small groups.

Combos are a mix of kicks and vicious blade attacks.

Basic combo (EEE): Does nothing special.

Combo 1 (EEpauseEE): hit>hit>radial attack with Bleed procs>Open an enemy in front of Ash to Finisher attack.

Combo 2 (Ermb+EE) Ash lunges forward in a puff of smoke, stabbing and inflicting Bleed on enemies in line.

Duration based ultimate. Tap while active to refresh, Hold to cancel.

Rising Storm:

 -Increase COmbo counter while in Blade Storm by 10s and the combo counter increase by +0.25x

 

Conclave version:

Passive "Mark of the Assassin": Only marks on radar. Has 10m marking range and falls off when enemy is 20m away. Lasts only 5s.

Passive "Hemorrage": Melee attacks inflict a Bleed that deals 10% of the weapon's Slash damage each second for 3s.

Shuriken: Tap deals 70 damage, Hold deals 25 damage. None of them inflict Bleed.

Smoke Screen: Cloud duration is 6s, lingering invisibility is 4s. Attacking, casting abilities or picking items cancels lingering invisbility but not cloud invisibility.

Teleport: Hold function disabled

Blade Storm: Doesn't trigger Finishers, instead it deals heavy damage (not oneshot though) and inflicts a Bleed proc on hit. Lasts only 10s.

 

[SoulEchelon]

Just now, Nazrethim said:

Well, that stems from the fact that DE took a WHOLE DAMN YEAR only to release a half-arsed "revisit" which barely fixed any of the issues (that I pointed before) and shortly after release Nidus, who has double passive (one of them being his mutation, the other the health regen) and then up themselves again by pulling a proper Limbo rework (with a cool passive to boot!) in a fraction of the time they allegedy spent with Ash.

As for how I would like Ash to be reworked, here's my idea (which DOES actually adress nearly everything, including Conclave balancing):

  Reveal hidden contents

Ash rework:

Passive: Mark of the Assassin.

While aiming, gliding or latching, Ash marks enemies. Marked enemies take 20% extra Finisher and Bleed damage. Mark lasts 10s and uses no energy. Enemies marked are highlighted on the radar. 50m range.

Passive: "Hemorrage": +20% Bleed damage +50% duration

 

Shuriken:

Tap: Ash throws a Shuriken in a straight line, dealing heavy Puncture damage, impaling enemies on walls. Has 3.0 punch trough.

Hold: After holding for 1s, Ash throws a barrage of smaller, seeking shurikens to all marked enemies, dealing Slash damage.

Seeking Shuriken:

 -Tap: removes 100% enemy Armor and ricochets on a surface it can't pass trough up to 3 times.

 -Hold: removes 50% enemy Armor.

Smoke Screen:

Ash creates a cloud of smoke that lasts for 12s (base duration at max ability lvl). Ash is invisible while inside the cloud and for 8s after leaving the cloud. Enemies inside the cloud are blinded and open for Finisher attacks.

Tap: cast at Ash's feet.

Hold (1s): cast at the surface Ash is aiming (20m range max)

Smoke Shadow: Allies who enter/pass trough the cloud are also gain invisibility.

Teleport:

Tap: Ash teleports to the target location, stunning and opening nearby enemies to Finisher attacks. Cost 25 energy.

Hold: Ash goes into a rampage, teleporting and attacking all marked enemies with his currently equiped weapon (essentially current blade storm) for 15 energy (10 if invisible) per enemy.

Fatal Teleport:

 -Refunds 50% of the cost on next kill.

 -Tap: Ash will Finish the nearest enemy instantly, promting a second radial stagger with opening.

 -Hold: Increase Finisher damage 200%

 

Blade Storm:

Ash enters into Blade Storm mode (he pulls his blades out and vents more smoke). Roll, Sidestep and Backspring are replaced by manic-like teleports. On Finisher attacks Ash will rapidly teleport between enemies assassinating small groups.

Combos are a mix of kicks and vicious blade attacks.

Basic combo (EEE): Does nothing special.

Combo 1 (EEpauseEE): hit>hit>radial attack with Bleed procs>Open an enemy in front of Ash to Finisher attack.

Combo 2 (Ermb+EE) Ash lunges forward in a puff of smoke, stabbing and inflicting Bleed on enemies in line.

Duration based ultimate. Tap while active to refresh, Hold to cancel.

Rising Storm:

 -Increase COmbo counter while in Blade Storm by 10s and the combo counter increase by +0.25x

 

Conclave version:

Passive "Mark of the Assassin": Only marks on radar. Has 10m marking range and falls off when enemy is 20m away. Lasts only 5s.

Passive "Hemorrage": Melee attacks inflict a Bleed that deals 10% of the weapon's Slash damage each second for 3s.

Shuriken: Tap deals 70 damage, Hold deals 25 damage. None of them inflict Bleed.

Smoke Screen: Cloud duration is 6s, lingering invisibility is 4s. Attacking, casting abilities or picking items cancels lingering invisbility but not cloud invisibility.

Teleport: Hold function disabled

Blade Storm: Doesn't trigger Finishers, instead it deals heavy damage (not oneshot though) and inflicts a Bleed proc on hit. Lasts only 10s.

 

Not going to read all that specifically because I don't really care. My point was - you're nitpicking. His passive works perfectly fine and suits his kit extremely well. Whether or not it can be better in your eyes or worse is your problem, not mine and not DE's.

[Nazrethim]

Just now, (Xbox One)CFE Angry said:

I play ash in conclave all the time, bladestorm is basically a free kill ability, teleport allows me to catch my enemies by surprise, smokescreen let's me get away from a sticky situation, and shuriken can takeout low health enemies. Now let's talk Warframes with actual conclave problems like nidus and inaros

BS only if the target is already with a foot on the grave and isn't practical at all to use on multiple targets because it encumbers Ash for no reason, same for Shuriken (actually, any hitscan weapon does a better job), Smoke Screen is only good for the mobility buff, because the invisibility doesn't actually make you invisible (or at least not enough). Teleport does NOTHING on the target, and everyone bulletjumps into space the second you appear beside them (or they shoot you dead) and is virtually useless if you pretend to use melee (because, again, targe tbulletjumps into space the second you show up), meaning teleport is ONLY good if you have a Shotgun.

[PakkiTheDog]

2 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

If you're teammates are killing enemies before you can BS, then you shouldn't be spamming BS. Ash shines when the going gets tough. He's not made to nuke low level enemies

So you are saying i shouldn't use his 4th ability? That's a bit silly. Nowadays players are too OP and too soft to get to the point that the tough gets going. Like killing enemies with ez but evac before the challenge comes. And what other use you have from him? Fatal teleport isn't good with crowds, his invisibility is short...what is the reason to pick him when other frames do the job so much better?

[(PSN)abbacephas]

1 minute ago, PakkiTheDog said:

So you are saying i shouldn't use his 4th ability? That's a bit silly. Nowadays players are too OP and too soft to get to the point that the tough gets going. Like killing enemies with ez but evac before the challenge comes. And what other use you have from him? Fatal teleport isn't good with crowds, his invisibility is short...what is the reason to pick him when other frames do the job so much better?

Simple:

[Dumfing]

4 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

BS is his signature. 

Mine too

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

6 minutes ago, PakkiTheDog said:

So you are saying i shouldn't use his 4th ability? That's a bit silly. Nowadays players are too OP and too soft to get to the point that the tough gets going. Like killing enemies with ez but evac before the challenge comes. And what other use you have from him? Fatal teleport isn't good with crowds, his invisibility is short...what is the reason to pick him when other frames do the job so much better?

Use Bladestorm when the time is right, like when a teammate goes down and their surrounded by a bunch of enemies. 

Edited March 29, 2017 by (XB1)CFE Angry

[PakkiTheDog]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:

Simple:

He'll frighten the enemies to death! 

[(PSN)abbacephas]

1 minute ago, PakkiTheDog said:

He'll frighten the enemies to death! 

He's so edgy, he'll proc slash merely by looking in their direction resulting in them bleeding out.

 

[TennoPain]

I did not like that rework killed ash for me (hay i at least need 1 press 2 clear room frame) 

tho i always hated on motion sickness ult not i just skipped him and his skin 

^ that says much about this (i even buyed oberon skin) and i played him once during 4 years (leveled and left to collect dust)

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

37 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Well, that stems from the fact that DE took a WHOLE DAMN YEAR only to release a half-arsed "revisit" which barely fixed any of the issues (that I pointed before) and shortly after release Nidus, who has double passive (one of them being his mutation, the other the health regen) and then up themselves again by pulling a proper Limbo rework (with a cool passive to boot!) in a fraction of the time they allegedy spent with Ash.

As for how I would like Ash to be reworked, here's my idea (which DOES actually adress nearly everything, including Conclave balancing):

  Hide contents

Ash rework:

Passive: Mark of the Assassin.

While aiming, gliding or latching, Ash marks enemies. Marked enemies take 20% extra Finisher and Bleed damage. Mark lasts 10s and uses no energy. Enemies marked are highlighted on the radar. 50m range.

Passive: "Hemorrage": +20% Bleed damage +50% duration

 

Shuriken:

Tap: Ash throws a Shuriken in a straight line, dealing heavy Puncture damage, impaling enemies on walls. Has 3.0 punch trough.

Hold: After holding for 1s, Ash throws a barrage of smaller, seeking shurikens to all marked enemies, dealing Slash damage.

Seeking Shuriken:

 -Tap: removes 100% enemy Armor and ricochets on a surface it can't pass trough up to 3 times.

 -Hold: removes 50% enemy Armor.

Smoke Screen:

Ash creates a cloud of smoke that lasts for 12s (base duration at max ability lvl). Ash is invisible while inside the cloud and for 8s after leaving the cloud. Enemies inside the cloud are blinded and open for Finisher attacks.

Tap: cast at Ash's feet.

Hold (1s): cast at the surface Ash is aiming (20m range max)

Smoke Shadow: Allies who enter/pass trough the cloud are also gain invisibility.

Teleport:

Tap: Ash teleports to the target location, stunning and opening nearby enemies to Finisher attacks. Cost 25 energy.

Hold: Ash goes into a rampage, teleporting and attacking all marked enemies with his currently equiped weapon (essentially current blade storm) for 15 energy (10 if invisible) per enemy.

Fatal Teleport:

 -Refunds 50% of the cost on next kill.

 -Tap: Ash will Finish the nearest enemy instantly, promting a second radial stagger with opening.

 -Hold: Increase Finisher damage 200%

 

Blade Storm:

Ash enters into Blade Storm mode (he pulls his blades out and vents more smoke). Roll, Sidestep and Backspring are replaced by manic-like teleports. On Finisher attacks Ash will rapidly teleport between enemies assassinating small groups.

Combos are a mix of kicks and vicious blade attacks.

Basic combo (EEE): Does nothing special.

Combo 1 (EEpauseEE): hit>hit>radial attack with Bleed procs>Open an enemy in front of Ash to Finisher attack.

Combo 2 (Ermb+EE) Ash lunges forward in a puff of smoke, stabbing and inflicting Bleed on enemies in line.

Duration based ultimate. Tap while active to refresh, Hold to cancel.

Rising Storm:

 -Increase COmbo counter while in Blade Storm by 10s and the combo counter increase by +0.25x

 

Conclave version:

Passive "Mark of the Assassin": Only marks on radar. Has 10m marking range and falls off when enemy is 20m away. Lasts only 5s.

Passive "Hemorrage": Melee attacks inflict a Bleed that deals 10% of the weapon's Slash damage each second for 3s.

Shuriken: Tap deals 70 damage, Hold deals 25 damage. None of them inflict Bleed.

Smoke Screen: Cloud duration is 6s, lingering invisibility is 4s. Attacking, casting abilities or picking items cancels lingering invisbility but not cloud invisibility.

Teleport: Hold function disabled

Blade Storm: Doesn't trigger Finishers, instead it deals heavy damage (not oneshot though) and inflicts a Bleed proc on hit. Lasts only 10s.

 

This all day

[Hellnar_Doombringer]

completely removing the animations and letting the clones killing the enemies would be nice... But nooo we shouldn't remove those glitchy useless animations...

[Nazrethim]

Just now, Hellnar_Doombringer said:

completely removing the animations and letting the clones killing the enemies would be nice... But nooo we shouldn't remove those glitchy useless animations...

Some people like the animations (when they are not glitching of course). We should have the option of having them or not.

[Hypernaut1]

44 minutes ago, PakkiTheDog said:

 

So you are saying i shouldn't use his 4th ability? That's a bit silly. Nowadays players are too OP and too soft to get to the point that the tough gets going. Like killing enemies with ez but evac before the challenge comes. And what other use you have from him? Fatal teleport isn't good with crowds, his invisibility is short...what is the reason to pick him when other frames do the job so much better?

Its about more than just kill numbers. Ash is the hardest hitting WF in the game. If you're worried about killing trash mobs, pick a nuke frame, thats not Ashs role anymore. BS is good for taking down multiple tough enemies, and there are few frames that are better. 

[evilfluffy]

3 hours ago, (Xbox One)CFE Angry said:

Idk why everyone is so worked up about ash getting "fixed", I mean this rework my not be the best, but ash can still kill lvl 150 enemies waaaay faster than other frames. Seriously I can never understand how a Warframe who uses two of the best damage types(slash/finisher damage) in three of his abilities, is considered useless/bad. Also ash has a passive that buffs his overall damage for anything that procs slash, which is like 80% of all the weapons in the game.

Exactly there is a reason he has a loadout slot specifically for him in my arsenal.

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

Play him in Conclave, if you manage to get 10 power kills in a single match vs competent people, I willa ccept Ash is fine.

Conclave is not this games focus and has a separate balance as to not affect pve.

To be honest I couldn't give a single care about conclave.

 

 

[Nazrethim]

Just now, evilfluffy said:

Conclave is not this games focus and has a separate balance as to not affect pve.

To be honest I couldn't give a single care about conclave.

That isn't an excuse to make his abilities sh*t (by comparison to other frames with much more powerful abilities and roughly the similar or more EHP/Mobility ratios)

[evilfluffy]

4 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

That isn't an excuse to make his abilities sh*t (by comparison to other frames with much more powerful abilities and roughly the similar or more EHP/Mobility ratios)

Did you even read they WILL NEVER balance pve content based on pvp it's separate.  His abilities are not S#&$ in pve sorry your pvp balance differs but pvp never was nor will it ever be the main focus of this game.

[PakkiTheDog]

5 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Its about more than just kill numbers. Ash is the hardest hitting WF in the game. If you're worried about killing trash mobs, pick a nuke frame, thats not Ashs role anymore. BS is good for taking down multiple tough enemies, and there are few frames that are better. 

Again, where ,other than the index or arena, this comes to play? I'm not taking ash in survival/defend/interception or other modes so i can kill a couple of heavy gunners. And even in axi endless fissure our gear and other frames are powerful enough to beat Ash to the punch. And you'll hardly ever come to the difficulty where he'll be the only one dealing dmg as most of the players evacuate when it gets interesting.

 And if i'm not using 3 of his abilities at all that makes him a bad frame for most occasions.

 

I'm not saying that he is not powerful, just his usefulness is a bit S#&$ in most missions.

[Nazrethim]

16 minutes ago, evilfluffy said:

Did you even read they WILL NEVER balance pve content based on pvp it's separate.  His abilities are not S#&$ in pve sorry your pvp balance differs but pvp never was nor will it ever be the main focus of this game.

Yet it's the Conclave team who must then rebalance the whole thing to make it work in PvP. I don't mean the frame should be balanced for PvP and from there going to PvE, but make it work for PvE in an interesting way, yet take into consideration the inevitable conclave balance pass so the transition from one mode to the next is as smooth as possible. PvP balancing is also very simple, you just need to know average frame EHP and the frame in question EHP, then work the numbers from there, adjust mechanics as it seems fit (if you read the rework I suggested above, you will notice the abilities are designed first for PvE and then rebalanced for PvP, not the other way around, with little change in application)

[(PSN)jman10089]

I would like a rework that actually gave him a different number 4 but I would love it more if fatal teleport was baseline instead of an augment. Without that mod the ability seems incompletely or like he stunned them and then was like "ok I did a thing, now what?", which reminds me of a part in a certain movie where the protagonist blinded the antagonist and and sat there smiling like an idiot instead of tackling and restraining the antagonist before he could recover. Of course that movie was a comedy so that how it was supposed to happen in that instance.

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

 

One side of the community believes ash is fine, meanwhile the other side wants ash to become something else. Personally I think ash is good where he is, I can do anything in the game with him, which makes him a great solo frame for anything. Now let's talk about hydroid and Oberon shall we?

Edited March 29, 2017 by (XB1)CFE Angry

[(PSN)robotwars7]

Ash is fine as he is, all he needed was a manual targeting system for his Ult, and that's what he got. he's a perfectly powerful and enjoyable offensive frame that can reliably deal damage. I see no problem with him now he's had his rework.