[Update 20] Limbo Revisited Feedback Megathread

[Quanlain]

28 minutes ago, (Xbox One)CannyJack said:

This alone would probably save Limbo for me. I personally think Rift Walking is powerful and fundamental to his power set be one of Limbo's 4 powers in its own right (as DE apparently used to believe), instead of a free 5th (or 6th, if you count focus) power, but that sentiment doesn't seem to get a lot of traction. I would be unlikely to play with the other synergies because frankly, I don't give a damn about Limbo's damage potential; I used him so I didn't have to fight anything. 

I would be thankful if I didn't have to take special measures such as facing into a corner and riftwalking just so I don't slide into a laser, or some bullS#&$. With the fact that crouch and roll can't be separated on consoles, there's the extra risk that a split-second too long or too short on the button press ends up doing the wrong command - rolling when I meant to crouch; crouching when I needed to roll.

When Rift Walk was a straight power with duration, an accidental crouch or roll was very unlikely to risk blowing a spy vault or exposing myself to danger. Now that the maneuver attached to the button also involves changing rift state, I foresee a whole lot of "GOD DAMMIT!" moments. 

And you was actually able to use riftwalk while airgliding, so you could actually continue moving during animation, if you wanted.

[(PSN)joshw1400]

8 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

That's just like your opinion man.

i stg

[Clonmac]

22 hours ago, Shadu said:

Limbo just basically says "nope, you can't kill these enemies currently until I allow you to" 

No, sorry that's such an exaggeration it's not even funny. I feel like you're complaining just for the sake of it. Limbo can't stop anyone from killing an enemy. He only delays the inevitable and he can only delay it for so long before the timer expires. If you fire your shots at an enemy, you'll get your kill.

I don't see you complaining about abilities that CC enemies by throwing them around (like Zephyr and Hydro). That's more a hindrance to a teammate's killing ability than Limbo is. At least with Limbo you can guarantee you shots will land on a still target. With Zephyr or Hydro, the bodies being flung all over the place makes it difficult to land a clear shot. I'd be willing to bet that there are more enemies that are freed from CC without being killed from Hydro or Zephyr's CC than there are from Limbo's Stasis.

 

22 hours ago, Frenjo said:

My problem with the first point is that if that's a design decision it's bad, make Limbo a tank frame then it'll be okay. But instadeath at higher levels because of a "design decision" is really bad gameplay. You're saying they basically designed limbo to die at higher levels by forcing him to leave the rift. What they should do instead, make the rift back to like it was (however still keep the rolling for entry because that's hella cool), give it a duration/energy cost and then fix banish. Making a design decision that forces his abilities to be gimped to make the frame "balanced" is not okay.

I play high level gameplay all the time and I don't "instadie" ever. He has so many tactics available to him and none of them involve instadeath. Often, I just cast Banish once and just enter the rift. Banish can even be casted through walls and around corners. After that I can simply use Rift Surge going forward to keep bringing in enemies without exposing myself. Or I can just use Cataclysm. Not sure how that's difficult...

[Code-Alpha]

Yesterday i got captured by Zanuka with my Limbo frame. kicked me out of the void and beat me down.

then we get to the recovery mission where i suddenly find myself still able to shift to the rift plane a thing which basically made the mission just plain easy since no enemy could damage me.since it isn't the sense of the mission to just be immortal and ignore everybody i through to report this and maybe DE will disable voids passive or make it work like in the orbiter because our powers are disabled and then Limbo being able to riftshift isn't exactly in line with that.

greetings a guy that approves of the new Limbo

[xXx_mtv_xXx]

So we got another fun frame and you guys want it nerfed already lol please stop with the nerfs.

[IceColdHawk]

21 minutes ago, AxiomCrux said:

What one person finds annoying another might enjoy, it is all down to preference.

Exactly, and this is why you can't just go and say "Well, it's annoying. I dun like darude sandstorm." if you want to maintain a logical thread and are striving for a solution.

[malekas]

51 minutes ago, Clonmac said:

No, sorry that's such an exaggeration it's not even funny. I feel like you're complaining just for the sake of it. Limbo can't stop anyone from killing an enemy. He only delays the inevitable and he can only delay it for so long before the timer expires. If you fire your shots at an enemy, you'll get your kill.

I don't see you complaining about abilities that CC enemies by throwing them around (like Zephyr and Hydro). That's more a hindrance to a teammate's killing ability than Limbo is. At least with Limbo you can guarantee you shots will land on a still target. With Zephyr or Hydro, the bodies being flung all over the place makes it difficult to land a clear shot. I'd be willing to bet that there are more enemies that are freed from CC without being killed from Hydro or Zephyr's CC than there are from Limbo's Stasis.

 

I play high level gameplay all the time and I don't "instadie" ever. He has so many tactics available to him and none of them involve instadeath. Often, I just cast Banish once and just enter the rift. Banish can even be casted through walls and around corners. After that I can simply use Rift Surge going forward to keep bringing in enemies without exposing myself. Or I can just use Cataclysm. Not sure how that's difficult...

Can you explain how you're using Rift Surge? Because I don't seem to be doing it right. The only ways that I see to use it are overly complex, clunky, and not worth the time or energy.

[Clonmac]

40 minutes ago, malekas said:

Can you explain how you're using Rift Surge? Because I don't seem to be doing it right. The only ways that I see to use it are overly complex, clunky, and not worth the time or energy.

What I generally do is this:

1) Cast Banish while in the material plane with Stasis up. This is often done way before an enemies even have aggro on me and can be done around corners and through walls/objects. So the enemies are immediately frozen in time.

2) As soon as the cast is finished, I enter the rift. So it is all one fluid motion that doesn't leave me exposed much. It is about the same exposure as recasting the old Rift Walk ability was.

3) Once I am in the rift with those enemies frozen, I cast Rift Surge and start firing my shots at the frozen enemies.

4) During this time, while enemies are starting to swarm around in the material plane, I pick an enemy that is frozen in the rift that has Rift Surge on and cast Banish on them. What this does is brings in all enemies around him into the rift with you, freezing them as well.

5) I then cast Rift Surge again to place Rift Surge on these newly brought in enemies. I then go around shooting at these new enemies.

6) I repeat steps 3-5 as much as I want continuing to bring in enemies into the rift with me without ever having to leave the rift. I usually continue this until I get to the point where I'm at step 7...

7) If there are no more enemies around to bring into the rift with me, then that means it is safe to leave the rift where I can then repeat starting back at step 1.

 

This allows me to kill many enemies without ever taking a shot in return while also not needing to leave the rift. It also is a good compliment to Cataclysm as this allows me to be more mobile while at the same time not impacting any of my teammates since they'll be in the material plane and be unaffected by my repeated Banish casts.

Edited March 28, 2017 by Clonmac

[W0wRUUD]

32 minutes ago, malekas said:

Can you explain how you're using Rift Surge? Because I don't seem to be doing it right. The only ways that I see to use it are overly complex, clunky, and not worth the time or energy.

I'm not to sure about all of the uses of rift surge, but If you use the augment rift torrent, you can get some insane damage multipliers going on enemies in the void.

+30% damage to affected enemies for each enemy affected by surge, which is affected by power strength, means that it's ridiculously easy to get 5x multipliers on all of your damage.

And since you can get that damage while said enemies are frozen in place, you become an almost unstoppable killing machine. To me, that's definitely worth the energy.

[malekas]

3 minutes ago, Clonmac said:

What I generally do is this:

1) Cast Banish while in the material plane with Stasis up. This is often done way before an enemies even has aggro on me and can be done around corners and through walls/objects. So the enemies are immediately frozen in time.

2) As soon as the cast is finished, I enter the rift. So it is all one fluid motion that doesn't leave me exposed much. It is about the same exposure as recasting the old Rift Walk ability was.

3) Once I am in the rift with those enemies frozen, I cast Rift Surge and start firing my shots at the frozen enemies.

4) During this time, while enemies are starting to swarm around in the material plane, I pick an enemy that is frozen in the rift that has Rift Surge on and cast Banish on them. What this does is brings in all enemies around him into the rift with you, freezing them as well.

5) I then cast Rift Surge again to place Rift Surge on these newly brought in enemies. I then go around shooting at these new enemies.

6) I repeat steps 3-5 as much as I want continuing to bring in enemies into the rift with me without ever having to leave the rift. I usually continue this until I get to the point where I'm at step 7...

7) If there are no more enemies around to bring into the rift with me, then that means it is safe to leave the rift where I can then repeat starting back at step 1.

Not trying to call you out or anything, but that is an excessive amount of energy and work just to do the same thing that a single cast of Cataclysm/Stasis can do. In the example you just gave you spent 250 energy, and that was before you said repeat steps 3-5. Granted, doing it your way is a lot better for your teammates because they don't have to fight against your Cataclysm, but when has Limbo ever cared about his teammates.

 

The whole thing just feels so clunky. It would be a great change if instead of having to remove an enemy from the rift to radial banish, if killing an enemy that was surged did that.

[Clonmac]

3 minutes ago, malekas said:

Not trying to call you out or anything, but that is an excessive amount of energy and work just to do the same thing that a single cast of Cataclysm/Stasis can do. In the example you just gave you spent 250 energy, and that was before you said repeat steps 3-5. Granted, doing it your way is a lot better for your teammates because they don't have to fight against your Cataclysm, but when has Limbo ever cared about his teammates.

 

The whole thing just feels so clunky. It would be a great change if instead of having to remove an enemy from the rift to radial banish, if killing an enemy that was surged did that.

You say it is a lot of enery to spend and yet I've never once ran into energy problems while playing as the new Limbo. Perhaps because as long as I continue to kill enemies in the rift I'll continue to receive a return on energy as well.

You could say it is a lot of casting to go through, but it is only energy intensive if Limbo has energy management problems...which he does not.

Certainly Cataclysm is a good choice too and that is what I like about Limbo. He has various tactics he can use. I use both Banish and Cataclysm depending on the situation. Banish allows me to be more mobile and react quicker to the situation. Cataclysm allows me to lock down an entire area.

[DreadWarlock]

12 hours ago, malekas said:

Someone has got to explain Rift Surge to me, because everything I see so far leads me to believe it does little to nothing (unless you're using the augment).

 

1) Put enemies in the rift

2) Cast Rift Surge, now every enemy in the rift is "surged"

3) ????????

 

I just don't see it doing anything. Sure, the enemies stay in the rift if I drop my Cataclysm, but why would I do that? It would be better to just keep Stasis up and murder everything in the rift. Rift Surge doesn't deal any extra damage (again, unless you use the augment), it doesn't make it any easier to put more enemies in the rift, it accomplishes nothing. The only thing I actually see it doing is that if I Banish a "surged" target to push them out of the rift, it will do a  tiny 5m banish around the target. That is a horrendous waste of energy when I can cast Cataclysm, or even the nerfed Banish, for much more range and effectiveness.

Rift Surge works this way, all enemies inside the rift will be surged, this means that if for some reason they leave the rift(by either leaving the cataclysm bubble or dying) they will in turn bring other enemies around to the rift instead, meaning, you can create a chain reaction bringing enemies to the rift and killing them as they come. That's is what it was meant to do, unfortunately it seems to be a bit bugged at the moment, as it may bring enemies from random parts of the room, instead of bringing enemies who are closer to the enemy you killed, and sometimes it doesn't work at all.

For the most part the ability does work, however sometimes you'll have to look around the room for that one SOB who got banished but was nowhere near you.

12 hours ago, RottedApples said:

Ok I'm sure I'm going to just be echoing stuff. I really don't want to read through 26 pages so I'm not sure if a DE person has said anything about this. (I did look at the first 5-6 pages though so i understand a rough general consensus)

I like almost all the changes. I'm glad his rift walk is free and in his roll, some people don't like it but I don't mind it. The stasis and rift surge changes are really cool and i need to mess around with them more to understand limits and uses better. I would prefer ash's bladestorm targeting on the banish instead of this aoe banish but i'll work with this.

The one thing that is an absolute deal breaker for me is not being able to banish people to the rift while in the rift and vice versa. I know full well that with that stasis he would be over powered as hell if he could do this but I would rather have old limbo than not be able to banish people to the rift while i'm in it. It completely ruins the frame to me. I'm totally on board with the other changes, I wasn't hopeful about the idea of a rework for a while because I've played league of legends for a long time and seen champions be completely ruined by reworks in my eyes. But when I saw gameplay in the devstream and saw he could freeze people/bullets in the rift and have small rift bubbles and do that he looked like a blast to play. But the banish changes completely ruin it all because of that one little thing.

That's really about it for me.

Edit: I knew i was forgetting something. It also kinda ruins him from a story/lore perspective. He should be a master of the rift. but now he's restricted by something that to him should be trivial.

I'm sorry but the Banish problems can be fixed by you getting good. Even in the old limbo we had times where we needed to leave the rift to collect ammo, staying outside the rift for a second to banish enemies is not that bad of problem to justify the amount of complaining we have here in this topic. 

Limbo was reworked, and so was his overall playstyle, you just have to adapt to these changes. It's hard to do something different from what you're used to, it is, but it's neither impossible nor that complicated either, it just takes getting used to.

Like I said before, you can cancel Banish animations with a Rift dash. You'll banish and enter the rift yourself, instantly. You don't even lose time to enjoy torturing the poor souls who just got knocked to the ground.

[Frenjo]

3 hours ago, bl4ckhunter said:

rift surge is quite useful actually even if i will admit that the augment is kind of mandatory now, try building for max range efficiency and neutral strenght, dash -> stasis -> cataclysm -> rift surge -> collapse cataclysm nukes everything now.

Collapsing cataclysm nukes everything anyway without rift surge :P

[Frenjo]

8 minutes ago, DreadWarlock said:

I'm sorry but the Banish problems can be fixed by you getting good. Even in the old limbo we had times where we needed to leave the rift to collect ammo, staying outside the rift for a second to banish enemies is not that bad of problem to justify the amount of complaining we have here in this topic.

Telling someone to "get good" is not an argument. Banish needs to be multiplane, that's the way it always has been and always should be so that as everybody's said you don't just get oneshotted on higher levels, and the fact that it requires unnecessary extra steps to actually do, making gameplay even MORE clunky.

 

EDIT: Apologies for the double post, but I couldn't figure out how to edit a post with a new quote in it.

Edited March 28, 2017 by Frenjo

[malekas]

5 minutes ago, DreadWarlock said:

Rift Surge works this way, all enemies inside the rift will be surged, this means that if for some reason they leave the rift(by either leaving the cataclysm bubble or dying) they will in turn bring other enemies around to the rift instead, meaning, you can create a chain reaction bringing enemies to the rift and killing them as they come. That's is what it was meant to do, unfortunately it seems to be a bit bugged at the moment, as it may bring enemies from random parts of the room, instead of bringing enemies who are closer to the enemy you killed, and sometimes it doesn't work at all.

For the most part the ability does work, however sometimes you'll have to look around the room for that one SOB who got banished but was nowhere near you.

I'm sorry but the Banish problems can be fixed by you getting good. Even in the old limbo we had times where we needed to leave the rift to collect ammo, staying outside the rift for a second to banish enemies is not that bad of problem to justify the amount of complaining we have here in this topic. 

Limbo was reworked, and so was his overall playstyle, you just have to adapt to these changes. It's hard to do something different from what you're used to, it is, but it's neither impossible nor that complicated either, it just takes getting used to.

Like I said before, you can cancel Banish animations with a Rift dash. You'll banish and enter the rift yourself, instantly. You don't even lose time to enjoy torturing the poor souls who just got knocked to the ground.

I thought killing a surged enemy just transfered the surge, and to do the radial banish you had to send them out of the rift. If killing a surged enemy would banish other nearby enemies then the ability would be fantastic (well, that and a 50% base range increase), but I've never seen it do that.

[DreadWarlock]

Just now, Frenjo said:

Telling someone to "get good" is not an argument. Banish needs to be multiplane, that's the way it always has been and always should be so that as everybody's said you don't just get oneshotted on higher levels, and the fact that it requires unnecessary extra steps to actually do, making gameplay even MORE clunky.

I'm sorry but having problems with staying outside the rift and using it as an excuse to say that it's impossible to use banish, is a loathsome argument that deserves the kind of treatment I gave here. It's the same as those guys who say that Banshee is useless to high level missions because she's too squishy. I have problems with neither of them, regardless of the level.

Not only me, even famous youtubers have also shown videos of them fighting high level enemies without dying left and right, like most people do. So yeah, get good is a valid advice. And many people who plays endurance runs, agree that Banshee is especially viable at very high levels. 

Like I said in the comment, his playstyle changed, it's useless to use logic from his former self to say that something needs to be changed.

 

[Gizogin]

I was thrown off at first by the restrictions on Banish. Maybe I'll get used to the changes, but it does feel like the rest of Limbo's kit leaves Banish far behind. That said, if Banish worked cross-plane, I'd probably never leave the Rift, so maybe it's for the best.

 

The replacement to Rift Walk gets nothing but praise from me. Transitioning is much faster and feels better, and it will probably be the thing that eventually warms me to Banish. Stasis gives Limbo much better control over the battlefield than he's ever had, especially in conjunction with the ripple-effect of Rift Surge. It just seems that the only reason to use Banish is to start or renew a Rift Surge chain, rather than being a single-target lockdown ability as it was.

 

Cataclysm is Cataclysm; it hasn't changed much that I've noticed, though I was definitely thrown off by its interaction with Rift Surge. Again, it's something I'm sure I'll learn to take advantage of.

 

My only gripe is, again, that Banish just seems overly restrictive when compared to all the new options given by the rest of Limbo's changes. I would really love for it to be able to affect targets across planes again.

[Frenjo]

1 minute ago, DreadWarlock said:

I'm sorry but having problems with staying outside the rift and using it as an excuse to say that it's impossible to use banish, is a loathsome argument that deserves the kind of treatment I gave here. It's the same as those guys who say that Banshee is useless to high level missions because she's too squishy. I have problems with neither of them, regardless of the level.

Not only me, even famous youtubers have also shown videos of them fighting high level enemies without dying left and right, like most people do. So yeah, get good is a valid advice. And many people who plays endurance runs, agree that Banshee is especially viable at very high levels. 

Like I said in the comment, his playstyle changed, it's useless to use logic from his former self to say that something needs to be changed.

Why "get good" supposedly, when you can just ignore the ability and use two others to win? They basically made Limbo press 2 + 4 to win, that's how it is. That's his new playstyle, and I am ashamed of it.

Edit: Also, I don't care a damn about "famous youtubers".

Edited March 28, 2017 by Frenjo

[DreadWarlock]

4 minutes ago, Frenjo said:

Why "get good" supposedly, when you can just ignore the ability and use two others to win? They basically made Limbo press 2 + 4 to win, that's how it is. That's his new playstyle, and I am ashamed of it.

Because you can use banish, cancel the animation with Rift dash, use Rift surge and shoot enemies to death(and the enemies will not have finished their getting up animations) and save much more energy. And also have less problems with getting locked in Cataclysm stupidly long animations. I only ever use Cataclysm to nuke or to apply Stasis to an area when either one or more of my allies have fallen.

Edited March 28, 2017 by DreadWarlock
correcting mistakes

[Ta10S]

5 minutes ago, DreadWarlock said:

Not only me, even famous youtubers have also shown videos of them fighting high level enemies without dying left and right, like most people do.

Youtubers don't upload their death scene unless they want to laugh about it.

Edited March 28, 2017 by Ta10S

[Frenjo]

Just now, DreadWarlock said:

Because you can use banish, cancel the animation with Rift dash, use rift surge and shoot enemies to death(and the enemies will not have finished their getting up animations) and save much more energy, and have less problems with getting locked in Cataclysm stupdly long animations. I only ever use cataclysm to nuke or to apply statis to an area when either one or more of my allies have fallen.

That's the thing though, people aren't doing that. Mainstream players will not go to that effort, look at why Ember is such a popular frame. Banish should be multiplane to at least make that ability equally as useful as cataclysm in a different situation. However, I would prefer a full reversion of banish to the way it was.

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

2 minutes ago, Frenjo said:

That's the thing though, people aren't doing that. Mainstream players will not go to that effort, look at why Ember is such a popular frame. Banish should be multiplane to at least make that ability equally as useful as cataclysm in a different situation. However, I would prefer a full reversion of banish to the way it was.

Given the fact that energy is basically always available via some means or another, I doubt even the "non mainstream" players will spend a lot of time trying to be clever about things when you can nuke the world and move on. It might be fun to pull neat tricks while Limbo Revised is new, but when the novelty wears off it'll be another Ember. 

[Frenjo]

Just now, (Xbox One)CannyJack said:

Given the fact that energy is basically always available via some means or another, I doubt even the "non mainstream" players will spend a lot of time trying to be clever about things when you can nuke the world and move on. It might be fun to pull neat tricks while Limbo Revised is new, but when the novelty wears off it'll be another Ember. 

Exactly my point, so I say make banish usable now for the mainstream players by removing the unnecessary jumping in and out of the rift to do it.

[DreadWarlock]

8 minutes ago, Frenjo said:

That's the thing though, people aren't doing that. Mainstream players will not go to that effort, look at why Ember is such a popular frame. Banish should be multiplane to at least make that ability equally as useful as cataclysm in a different situation. However, I would prefer a full reversion of banish to the way it was.

Mainstream players are doing it wrong then.

The whole reason why banish can only be used to "Banish" enemies to the contrary plane, is to allow you to collect ammo and be vulnerable for at least some seconds. All mainstream players want, is to play god mode all the time and kill enemies instantly with a fart. Only to rage at DE when they decide to nerf the warframe to oblivion. I'm sorry for being harsh, but that's what's been happening for a very long time in warframe. And then they'll complain about the game being PvE and so it doesn't need balance.

Please, the lack of challenge is one of the main things that are making people leave warframe, and you guys want DE to keep on doing it? They are finally trying to fix this, Tonkor's nerf reduced it's damage a bit, but the weapon still wrecks everything, it only needs one extra grenade or so, and be cautious while doing it. 

Edited March 28, 2017 by DreadWarlock

[Frenjo]

Just now, DreadWarlock said:

Mainstream players are doing it wrong them. The whole reason why banish can only be used to "Banish" enemies to the contrary plane, is to allow you to collect ammo and be vulnerable for at least some seconds. All mainstream players want, is to play god mode all the time and kill enemies instantly with a fart. Only to rage at DE when they decide to nerf the warframe to oblivion. I'm sorry for being harsh, but that's what's been happening for a very long time in warframe. And then they'll complain about the game being PvE and so it doesn't need balance.

Please, the lack of challenge is one of the main things that are making people leave warframe, and you guys want DE to keep on doing it? They are finally trying to fix this, Tonkor's nerf reduced it's damage a bit, but the weapon still wrecks everything, it only needs one extra grenade or so, and be cautious while doing it. 

Why give him the rift in the first place then if it's considered overpowered then try to force him out of it? No, we need to shuffle the way you access and enter the rift around in order to fix these things. The rework needs a rework.