[Update 20] Limbo Revisited Feedback Megathread

[Lord_Terios]

9 minutes ago, VentiGlondi said:

I guess, but as I mentioned earlier, the problem is that Cataclysm deals damage unaffected by power strength, so you don't really get a choice of not speccing into damage.

The only real way not to spec into damage is to deliberately minimize your power range and that's just a really odd design choice, isn't it?

That is why I said the scaling factor should be affected by power strength.

meaning if you do 10% per foe based on stats in bubble. With Overextended you should do 4%

You could say the damage does up for each person in the bubble, sure. But that is still a significant nerf considering the damage numbers we see now AND gives people the option to go AoE nuke at the cost of survivability or utility mods builds if they want.

Edited April 8, 2017 by Lord_Terios

[VentiGlondi]

Honestly, I find it really confusing that DE decided that Cataclysm shouldn't be affected by power strength.

One might think it'd deal way too much damage with blind rage or transient fortitude, but building with those results in either decreasing your energy efficiency hampering your CC by decreasing duration. So it balanced out, really.

On the other hand, now we have a scaling AoE nuke with max range that ignores Overextended's downsides, and you get to keep your CC.

Edited April 8, 2017 by VentiGlondi

[dopey_opi]

You know, one way we could keep all the limbo players happy with their new toy would be to allow us to make specifications of what we're looking for in matchmaking.  They want to play limbo as-is, fine.  Add a feature that lets us narrow matchmaking parameters on pub missions down by excluding frames we don't want in the party with us.  This type of fix will go well beyond this very problematic Limbo rework, and also allow people to exclude things like Embers on low level fissures, Volts if you don't like getting a speed boost, Nidus if you're trying to avoid getting a cyst on you frame... i mean pick your poison this type of feature would solve it all.

Call it a 'yuck list'.  Hell, you could charge plat for it, and I'd pay it gladly.  There should obviously be some limits - maybe 3 frames per player max that they can exclude from matchmaking.  The logic of it would be simple, when finding a party it would check equipped frames on the prospective party against the player's list and if the check failed, move them onto the next.  Might increase matchmaking times a bit but I won't complain if it solves the frustration of ending up in pubs with limbos.

[Mypi]

7 hours ago, Music4Therapy said:

His 3 allows him to leave the Rift without dying instantly and to throw massive amounts of enemies at a time into the Rift and kep them there. Without it, he would die instantly upon leaving his Cataclysm. Why not give back his old damage multiplier from his old 3 to targets affected by Rift Surge and then remove the scaling from his Cata so he doesn't instantly blow up every non-armored enemy on the screen regardless of level while maintaining complete invincibility and the ability to simultaneously defend objectives while doing so? He scales infinitely both offensively and defensively and is his own Trinity due to the fact he has so much energy regen (2 per second and 10 per enemy killed)

Something has to give. You have good ideas, btw. Just wish you saw the potential in his 3 because since learning how it works I can't imagine life without it regardless of my Limbo build.

Perhaps i just don't understand the ability properly then? I've read the wiki page and performed a few experiments on the simulacrum a few minutes ago, but i simply don't see the value you describe.

Is there a video somewhere of a decent player using this ability well? Maybe it would help, because everyone i talk to just tell me they never use it, or can't figure out how to make it do anything at all.

Edited April 8, 2017 by Mypi

[Music4Therapy]

3 minutes ago, Mypi said:

Perhaps i just don't understand the ability properly then? I've read the wiki page and performed a few experiments on the simulacrum a few minutes ago, but i simply don't see the value you describe.

Is there a video somewhere of a decent player using this ability well? Maybe it would help, because everyone i talk to just tell me they never use it.

I don't know if there are any vids.

One example of its use is in defense missions. I recently solo'd to wave 100 in Akkad w/ Limbo as my frame. This was possible due to his 3 keeping enemies in the rift, thus in stasis, when I prematurely ended my cataclysms. I use a basic combo vs difficult content of preemptively casting 2, activating his 4, priming enemies with his 3, then 4 again. If not for his 3, there would be a period of time between me ending Cataclysm and me casting another Cataclysm where me/the defense objective is vulnerable to attack. With his 3, however, enemies remain in the rift and in Stasis when his Cata ends and pulls enemies near them into the rift as well. This makes you invincible outside the rift, because all enemies that were a threat within a large radius are stuck frozen in the Rift. You can use this time to refresh the duration on your stasis safely without fear of repercussion because all the enemies around you are still stuck in the Rift due to his 3.

 

His 3 is what allows him to not have any periods of vulnerability between entering and exiting the rift.

[Lord_Terios]

Scale the 10% with power strength. So with overextended it would be 4% and if they want more they have to give up utility or survivability mods.

Even if you consider this strong, it is a significant nerf to what we are currently looking at.

Edited April 8, 2017 by Lord_Terios

[ThePHiLsTeR]

Whether limbo needs a nerf or not, is another subject and in another thread. This is not about that. I was in LOR raid a couple days ago. I was getting trolled by another gamer. He kept spamming cataclysm every time I went to hack even after i told him the issue. Then last night, I went into a sortie rescue. Another limbo casts cataclysm right before infiltrating the rescue area. I couldn't destroy the grating in order to get in. Limbo has way too much power over how other players play the game.

[Sir_Puppington]

it also stops you from scanning targets if I remember correctly

[Kadishia]

It's great for players to use when in trouble but lots of nuisance has arise. DE needs to give other players an option like press 'E' to enter cataclysm.

Edited April 8, 2017 by Prismcore

[dopey_opi]

Yeah.  This has become a very problematic issue for me as well.  Even Limbos who aren't intending to troll are still spamming Cataclysm all over the place.  It's causing spy vaults to shut off mid-hack, causing me to enter the Rift when I don't want to be in it (with no option to 'roll out' in the Cataclysm aside from heading to the borders), causing my attacks to be ineffective... and due to the hugely OP nature of Limbo right now, they're everywhere.  Matchmaking has become almost unplayable.

[radastir]

12 minutes ago, dopey_opi said:

Yeah.  This has become a very problematic issue for me as well.  Even Limbos who aren't intending to troll are still spamming Cataclysm all over the place.  It's causing spy vaults to shut off mid-hack, causing me to enter the Rift when I don't want to be in it (with no option to 'roll out' in the Cataclysm aside from heading to the borders), causing my attacks to be ineffective... and due to the hugely OP nature of Limbo right now, they're everywhere.  Matchmaking has become almost unplayable.

You are PuGging spy-missions?!

But yeah, give the team mates an option to enter and leave Cataclysm at will or enable hacking while in the rift.

Besides the trolling potential new Limbo is just fine.

Edited April 8, 2017 by radastir

[Trichouette]

With all the "logical changes" they made to cataclysm (carry stuff in cataclysm or collect items on the ground) I still have no idea why we can't hack consoles that are in the cataclysm.

Well the obvious solution is "that would be way too powerful"...

Again, the solution to your problem is "don't play with random players" but that can't always work.

[artemisfortune]

The simpler fix is to not have entering the rift cancel any kind of mid-actions.

[Cyphrus]

7 hours ago, Music4Therapy said:

Your mindset is a cancer to the Warframe community and if every player shared your mindset Warframe wouldn't have made as much progress as it has over the years.

Stooping to insults shows your true character, that of a mindless drone. If something doesn't sit right with you you make an argument and present it with facts and statistics, reading your post you have done neither no tests, no number results nothing you are just complaining. Your very existence in this game is something I wished to avoid when I helped it in its infancy by becoming a founder leaving valuable feed back and participating on the Design Council which I continue to do to this day by participating in polls (I don't post as much in the Design Council as I do on the community boards.) 

If you wish to have a conversation about why you believe something to be "OP" or in need of a rework you should realize you are opening yourself to criticism and or feedback, if you cannot handle that and instead stoop to name calling and using your poison to contaminate the forums and this game with your clueless demeanor and way of thinking then I suggest you stop posting. 

[kyori]

I'm sorry to hear that all the Limbo players you have met so far doesn't really know how to play Limbo well.

Yes, I agree with the 'a button is needed to enter or exit' cataclysm. 

[Music4Therapy]

15 minutes ago, Cyphrus said:

Stooping to insults shows your true character, that of a mindless drone. If something doesn't sit right with you you make an argument and present it with facts and statistics, reading your post you have done neither no tests, no number results nothing you are just complaining. Your very existence in this game is something I wished to avoid when I helped it in its infancy by becoming a founder leaving valuable feed back and participating on the Design Council which I continue to do to this day by participating in polls (I don't post as much in the Design Council as I do on the community boards.) 

If you wish to have a conversation about why you believe something to be "OP" or in need of a rework you should realize you are opening yourself to criticism and or feedback, if you cannot handle that and instead stoop to name calling and using your poison to contaminate the forums and this game with your clueless demeanor and way of thinking then I suggest you stop posting. 

My posts have been paragraphs in length. Your post was and I quote,

"

8 hours ago, Cyphrus said:

Agree leave Limbo alone stop complaining people jebus

You telling me that I should present facts and statistics when that is all I've been doing prior to your comment seems very hypocritical and contradicting given the nature of your amazing post. I have gone into great detail as to what I feel needs changed and why and your lone response is barely even a sentence and full of grammatical errors, which is kind of insulting, really. Its not complaining, its input. Much needed input, because with the history of this game I have no doubt that Limbo's damage will be nerfed, the question is when and how, much like other frames the playerbase was quick to call "press 4 to win". I don't believe Limbo is press 4 to win, however, Limbo is currently unique in that he is 1 of only 4 frames that is capable of defending an objective, the others being Frost, Volt, and Atlas. Of the 4, only Frost, Volt, and Limbo have reliable CC, and of those 3 only Limbo scales infinitely offensively in addition to scaling defensively. Not only that, but due to the nature of his passives (2 energy per second and 10 energy per kill while in rift) he is his own Trinity. I've tested this in endurance missions vs all faction types. His kit is overloaded. I am a huge fan of Limbo, but am of the opinion that in his current state he will grow into being a huge detriment to the game's health. Unlike other "press 4 to win" frames, Limbo actually scales into late game and is capable of much more then just "press 4 to win" due to his defensive capabilities. He has the defensive capabilities of a Frost, hell better than Frost you can say, and is also a top tier damage frame in addition that in his current state.

 

EDIT: When played correctly, not only can Limbo last an infinite amount of time vs the Grineer, Corpus, and Infested factions (the corrupted faction gives him trouble when the Nullifiers and Ancients start stacking), but he does so with ease and efficiency. No frame in the game comes close to matching his combination of offense, defense, and CC.

Edited April 8, 2017 by Music4Therapy

[(PSN)salovel1991]

22 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

I wouldn't worry about it, CoolD2108 thinks everyone plays on the US servers and hasn't considered that the reason some people run into non-English speaking European people is because they're playing in Europe.

It's just minor trolling, they haven't actually commented on the topic at hand, they just want to have an argument with someone.

I'm in the US servers though. I looked up fdp apparently it is Portugese and he was calling me a son of a b***h. Lol fun times. 

[Sar.K.Asmus]

Ok DE let's talk about Limbo rework.

Cataclysm:

I'm sure every player who played this game for 2 years remembers old Polarize from Mag. I thought you (DE) remember it as well, but i'm not really sure after the Limbo rework. Because i'm not sure if you (DE) remember this skill here a quick flashback. Mag's Polarize removed all shields from an enemy who had shields and dealt damage based on it. Because shields scale damage of Polarize scaled as well. What this ability could do is wiping a whole room of Corpus enemies with a single button press no matter what level they were. You (DE) recognized after a while that this is a problem (took you 2 years maybe more?) and then you reworked it so that it no longer scales and doesn't wipe a whole room with 1 button press.

Then Limbo rework came. And you (DE) gave Cataclysm scaling damage (10% of enemies health + shields) which doesn't require any Power Strength and covers a huge area. After pressing 4 (Default for Cataclysm) 2 times you can almost wipe a whole room. And by almost i mean that 95% of the enemies who were inside of Cataclysm are dead most of the time (only some heavy units survive it and only if they have armor. But because Corrosive Projection exists it is an instant death for all enemies).

Can you (DE) to me explain why you thought that old Polarize is a problem and new Cataclysm isn't? I really want to know it.

 

Stasis:

Some old Players will remember that Vauban's Bastille didn't have an enemy cap on release so that you could CC every enemy who gets inside. I thought you (DE) remember it as well, but i'm not really sure after the Limbo rework.

Stasis has no enemy cap. Every enemy inside of the Rift is hard CCed for a very long time. Did you (DE) tried to play a Mobile Defense while testing Limbo? Why i'm asking that? Because now it's like see a Mobile Defense, pick a Limbo and you already accomplished this mission succesfully. Just go into the mission, go to the console you have to protect, cast Stasis, cast Cataclysm and you won. It is impossible for the enemies to damage the console. It is impossible to damage it from the outside and it is impossible to damage it inside of the Cataclysm because they are stunt and like i said before there is no enemy cap. There is 0% chance to fail and the enemy level doesn't matter. The only threat are the Nullifiers. Same goes for Defense missions.

And that is not the only problem with Stasis. It doesn't matter that there is a projectile cap. It is completely meaningless if you can melee all enemies inside the Rift without caring about the projectile cap. Just unequip your Primary and your Secondary so that you don't even come to the idea shooting at something.

Again DE can you explain to me why you thought that old Bastille is a problem and Stasis isn't? I really want to know it.

 

Rift Walk as a Passive without Duration and Energy drain:

Did you just gave him infinite God Mode on roll? Why did you thought it is a good idea?

Let me explain to you (DE) what can happen. Let's have a survival mission with a full squad (Limbo, random Frame Nr.1, random Frame Nr.2, random Frame Nr.3). So you might think "What's the problem with that?" let me explain. The only Limbo in this squad stays in the Rift all the time. All he does is staying in the Rift. He won't use any of his abilities , he will just stay in the Rift all the time. Why? Because his only job is reviving others. That's all he does and he can easily do it while he is inside of the Rift and others aren't. What will happen is that this squad will never be out of revives because they will always be revived from Limbo. The only thing the other 3 Frames have to do is killing and collecting Life Support and whenever they go down Limbo just revives them. So this combination + Naramon + Crit Chance Weapon = infinite Survival (or until you fall asleep). 

Is that what you want DE?

 

Edited April 8, 2017 by The-Tective

[JalakBali]

I agree on Limbo keeping the damage scaling.

 

I don't agree on the problem being energy refund. That's just a band-aid fix that could be bypassed by having a Trinity. The problem is the ability to spam the Cata-bomb. My proposed solution is to break off the spammable Cata-bomb gameplay:

1. Add a special counter to Limbo, similar to Nidus' Mutation. Let's call it "Rift Surge".

2. If 5 enemies are killed in the Rift (except from Cata-bomb), Limbo gains a Surge point. Limbo can stack this up to 5.

3. Using Cata-bomb uses up 1 Surge. Using this does the 10% total HP damage bonus. If Limbo has no Surge, closing Cataclysm will only do any damage like starting Cataclysm aka. old system.

 

So with this system, Limbo can't just stand there spamming Cata-bombs all day. Well, he could, but only if his allies help him by making kills inside Cataclysm. But that means Limbo has to watch his counter and not Cata-bomb too fast. It breaks up the monotony a bit.

[-N7-Leonhart]

59 minutes ago, The-Tective said:

Ok DE let's talk about Limbo rework.

Cataclysm:

Can you (DE) to me explain why you thought that old Polarize is a problem and new Cataclysm isn't? I really want to know it.

Stasis:

Again DE can you explain to me why you thought that old Bastille is a problem and Stasis isn't? I really want to know it.

 

Rift Walk as a Passive without Duration and Energy drain:

Did you just gave him infinite God Mode on roll? Why did you thought it is a good idea?

True, those are 3 very significant problems you mention here. At the moment, although it's only Cataclysm that seems to be stealing the limelight on the nerf scene, the other two cannot be ignored either, for the reasons you mentioned. Particularly Stasis, with it Limbo just decides what weapons you are going to use in that mission. Hell if I understand what the devs were thinking.

[-N7-Leonhart]

6 minutes ago, JalakBali said:

I agree on Limbo keeping the damage scaling.

 

I don't agree on the problem being energy refund. That's just a band-aid fix that could be bypassed by having a Trinity. The problem is the ability to spam the Cata-bomb. My proposed solution is to break off the spammable Cata-bomb gameplay:

1. Add a special counter to Limbo, similar to Nidus' Mutation. Let's call it "Rift Surge".

2. If 5 enemies are killed in the Rift (except from Cata-bomb), Limbo gains a Surge point. Limbo can stack this up to 5.

3. Using Cata-bomb uses up 1 Surge. Using this does the 10% total HP damage bonus. If Limbo has no Surge, closing Cataclysm will only do any damage like starting Cataclysm aka. old system.

 

So with this system, Limbo can't just stand there spamming Cata-bombs all day. Well, he could, but only if his allies help him by making kills inside Cataclysm. But that means Limbo has to watch his counter and not Cata-bomb too fast. It breaks up the monotony a bit.

You are too soft with this. The energy is minor problem with all the energy replenishing means we have these days, and only 5 enemies needing to die in order to kill everything else is also too soft. It would still mean that the squad mates will provide a little support, only for Limbo to do the rest just as fine. This needs a far more severe approach. Remember Mag's Polarize? It was nowhere near as OP and it still needed nerfing.

Edited April 8, 2017 by -N7-Leonhart

[(PSN)psycofang]

1 hour ago, The-Tective said:

Ok DE let's talk about Limbo rework.

Cataclysm:

 

Can you (DE) to me explain why you thought that old Polarize is a problem and new Cataclysm isn't? I really want to know it.

 

Stasis:

 

 

Again DE can you explain to me why you thought that old Bastille is a problem and Stasis isn't? I really want to know it.

 

Rift Walk as a Passive without Duration and Energy drain:

Did you just gave him infinite God Mode on roll? Why did you thought it is a good idea?

 So this combination + Naramon + Crit Chance Weapon = infinite Survival (or until you fall asleep). 

Is that what you want DE?

 

 

1 tie it to heavy power strength

2 none of Vaubans completely absurd CC forces you to melee or bust, firing bullets into vaubans max ranged + efficiency + duration aug vortex doesnt cause it to pop. Shooting (repelling) bastille doesnt cause it to pop.

3 that situation is already perfectly viable on OLD limbo since his rift walk with a good strength + range + duration build kept him in the rift of up to 1 minute. Limbo 2.0 doing this is no different and technically a redundant complaint. 

Edited April 8, 2017 by (PS4)psycofang

[DinendalMinyatur]

54 minutes ago, The-Tective said:

Ok DE let's talk about Limbo rework.

I believe solutions are easy for reworking rework (lol?)

Cata:Remove scaling or if ppl wants it, make it scale on duration to prevent spam (and put a max damage cap)

Stasis: Make it a channeling ability, put a cap on number of enemies affected (scaling with strength maybe?) and remove projectile stop to prevent annoying teammates.

59 minutes ago, The-Tective said:

Let's have a survival mission with a full squad (Limbo, random Frame Nr.1, random Frame Nr.2, random Frame Nr.3). So you might think "What's the problem with that?" let me explain. The only Limbo in this squad stays in the Rift all the time. All he does is staying in the Rift. He won't use any of his abilities , he will just stay in the Rift all the time. Why? Because his only job is reviving others. That's all he does and he can easily do it while he is inside of the Rift and others aren't. What will happen is that this squad will never be out of revives because they will always be revived from Limbo.

Actually this was possible before rework. Moded Limbo for good efficency and really long duration. I could keep rift walk up for 40-45 seconds when I mod for sortie rescue.

So it was press 2 at 45 sec intervals. Though as a Limbo player I wouldnt understand how this was even fun? I'd bored to death on such gameplay.

And a final note "Rift" is not God mode at all. Sure nobody can hurt you but you can't hurt them either, cant pick up, cant interact with consoles. With the recent change on how banish work you actually have to take risk to take them into rift plane.

[JalakBali]

Just now, -N7-Leonhart said:

You are too soft with this. The energy is minor problem with all the energy replenishing means we have these days, and only 5 enemies needing to die in order to kill everything else is also too soft. It would still mean that the squad mates will provide a little support, only for Limbo to do the rest just as fine. This needs a far more severe approach. Remember Mag's Polarize? It was nowhere near as OP and it still needed nerfing.

It's "soft" if the point was to nerf Cata-bomb into something less powerful. It shouldn't. I've seen other Limbo players who could barely do any damage because they're so careless when to use it (aka. not having enough enemies in the rift). The point is to break the monotony in gameplay. Abilities and weapons should not be nerfed because they're powerful but because they're repetitive and mindless. Mag's Polarize was mindless and requires no skill or coordination. It was cheap and fast acting and instant with a huge range and the damage to Corpus was devastating because nothing in the pre-Nullifier Corpus could withstand it. Cata-bomb have problems with high armored enemies.

[-N7-Leonhart]

6 minutes ago, JalakBali said:

It's "soft" if the point was to nerf Cata-bomb into something less powerful. It shouldn't. I've seen other Limbo players who could barely do any damage because they're so careless when to use it (aka. not having enough enemies in the rift). The point is to break the monotony in gameplay. Abilities and weapons should not be nerfed because they're powerful but because they're repetitive and mindless. Mag's Polarize was mindless and requires no skill or coordination. It was cheap and fast acting and instant with a huge range and the damage to Corpus was devastating because nothing in the pre-Nullifier Corpus could withstand it. Cata-bomb have problems with high armored enemies.

Players not doing enough damage with Cataclysm as it is are too dumb to be able to do anything, in this case. You could own anything non-armored by lvl 9999 even without an un-potatoed, un-formaed Limbo, and if you have CP squad, then there would be no problem with armored enemies either. Make no mistake, Cataclysm needs severe nerfing, like 2% damage scale, and scaling with STR after that, otherwise you would be nerfing only the noobs and not fixing the real power spammers.

Edited April 8, 2017 by -N7-Leonhart