[Update 20] Limbo Revisited Feedback Megathread

[ApocalypticFlameFury]

On 4/11/2017 at 9:22 AM, S0V3REiGN said:

It's simply put meta, players will always abuse rather than utilize powerfully abilities. In the end it's DEs fault for not properly play testing their warframes and they did delay his rework for a few weeks, I am not sure how they missed this. Cataclysm is too strong right now, I ran a bunch of missions last night with 250 range, max effeciancy and natural talent, it was even close. It's almost worse than old school miasma or Baldestorm.

Smh....well I mean I'll continue to be a skillful godmode veteran Limbo with my 5 Forma and Greater Zenurik Lens. I put so much time in mastering old and new Limbo though all of his changes. 

[EquesDei]

Maybe we can still have access to control boards and stuff? gets annoying that the hackings or MD datamass can't be accessed because some troll decided to send everyone in the rift.

[worminthewood]

Scott has done a great job on Limbo, that's what I'd say.
Nerfing him would be like.. cutting off Michelangolo's ding dong...

Sure, Cataclysm gets abused, as in among others.
Public / Online gaming, it's a brave new world.
Take em for a ride with friends - his new set is fun to play around with in good company.

[Detheris]

On 25/03/2017 at 6:49 AM, [DE]Danielle said:

Passive:

While in the Rift, Limbo receives a slight Energy regeneration. Additionally, enemies killed in the Rift will grant Limbo 10 Energy.

Enemies that die to the the Collapse of Cataclysm need to be treated as Outside the Rift.
Unless we actually want Max range + Max Efficiency 4 spam instant win limbo to remain a thing due to restoring 100+ energy every time cataclysm nukes a room for the cost of 25 energy.

Or just cut the energy restore on enemy death part out of his passive. Either works to be honest.

But as he is, this build which requires 0 forma, 0 potatos can solo most sortie 3's without any effort. 4 > 4 > rift slide rinse repeat

The mere fact that these mods dont even fit in the polarities he's been given screams that this is unintentional.

Lastly; didn't saryn and mag get reworked for exactly this reason!?
Only real difference is that Limbo does it even better because he refills his own energy.

Edited April 13, 2017 by Detheris

[Bonje]

So, now that the dust has settled and after having ample time to play around with Limbo after his rework there are things I feel the need to talk about.

Disclaimer: This is nothing more than my opinion, I'm fully aware that this post largely won't make it to DE consideration.

That being said, let me talk about my history with Limbo.

I loved this frame when I first started playing Warframe. It was the second frame I ever crafted and, as many people, hated the quest. I got lucky and got his parts each 3rd rotation on all of the excavation missions. My Archwing was massively under-leveled as well. But I got him eventually. I loved playing him, especially and mostly, solo. The troll stigma surrounding him, however, had me drift away from using him as I was still clan-less and relied on pubs which made it difficult to use him effectively. Eventually, he became the rescue one-trick-pony once Sorties rolled around. Fast forward to now and he finally got his rework. However short lived, I was happy with it. I say short-lived because quickly after his rework, he became the best press-4-to-win-frame.

This is not what limbo was ever intended to be. His specialty was always Crowd Control. However, that doesn't mean his damage potential can't be addressed in a more active manner.

Besides that, people have failed to use him in that respect as well due to Rift Torrent augment, which was using his 3rd ability as its base, which was one of the biggest mistakes of this rework as people often misused it, and as a result of that, Limbo was again shunned in team play as it made it annoying for teammates trying to kill banished targets that the Limbo was unaware of.

Oh and, time stopping powers are apparently hard for people to wrap their heads around, so I may have gotten a few enraged players not understanding why things weren't dying.

These issues may not seem as such to some people reading this because if done correctly and coordinated with a team Limbo can truly shine even in his current state but I could have said the same thing even before his rework. Restricting frames to be run in specific team setups hinders the frame and its pick rate in the roster of 32 Warframes (Jesus Crist we are at 32 frames already) and its overall enjoyment.

As a result, only one of the abilities received a positive change with the rework, that being Banish, which is now AOE and only affects targets in the current plane (believe it or not this is needed as banishing and un-banishing enemies in an AOE radius can get messy and removes control of the situation from the Player).

At this point, if you disagree with the statements above this would be a good place to jump off as I will now describe some changes that may prove helpful in finishing Limbo's rework.

Banish - The introduction of AOE Banish made this ability actually worth using for more than just Rescue missions. That being said, it still has trouble distinguishing allies from enemies, banishing both in an AOE leading to potentially unwanted consequences. I was thinking of making it target specific AOE, meaning it will Banish the targets with a similar relation toward the player(e.i. targeting a hostile bashines hostiles only within the AOE, same applying toward friendlies) however this will prove difficult on consoles. Implementing a tap/hold with this ability might prove more user-friendly (tap being banish enemies in AOE, hold being the case for friendlies). This will greatly improve team survivability as Limbo can safely remove either friend or foe from battle and ensure there isn't a clever waiting for them on the other plane, or to ensure there is one if it is an enemy. With the exception of this, Banish is a solid 1st ability in Limbos arsenal.

Its augment, Haven, on the other hand, is not. I hoped that the augment would be changed with the rework toward something more usable, but alas... The idea behind it is great, however, I can't see anyone actively trying to banish and un-banish friendlies to heal them. Ideally, it should work as a passive addition to those in the rift. For instance, change the augment to provide energy regeneration for those in Limbo at half the original rate but add the half of that rate to health regen. This will perhaps see more use as it now properly creates a Haven for Limbos allies

Stasis - For reasons other than this one, I adore this ability for its capabilities and strategical value. Being able to reposition oneself and allies in the heat battle proves useful. The benefit of being able to create elaborate chain reactions of massacre is, as a result, makes for one of the most fun abilities of any Warframe. That being said, in most situations a stationary enemy is an appealing kill. So an average Tenno unloads his clip/ shells/ beams of mass destruction without a second thought. This, in turn, overloads the maximum projectile capacity of Stasis causing it to trigger prematurely. The easiest remedy for this is to add a timer which specifies that Stasis has been activated and its duration or a counter of projectiles noting how many more projectiles can be added you can add before it deactivates (Speaking of, Zarr in its barrage fire mode, with Split Chamber equipped overloads Stasis in one trigger pull). There are also issues with the way Stasis interacts between Limbos but I will talk about this in the synergy section.

Rift Surge - In theory, this ability makes sense and synergises very well with Limbo's kit. However, due to how Cataclysm shrinks, enemies who leave the rift pull in those outside of it and often times without Limbo noticing it himself. This leads to frustration from his teammates when they are not able to kill those enemies. A proposed change of mine would require changing the entire ability as follows. Upon activation Rift Surge will damage enemies in the rift over time. Affected by power strength, duration, and efficiency, Rift Surge will constantly drain Limbo's energy, as creating powerful fluctuations of energy within a different plane of existence proves to be quite difficult.

As a result, Rift Torrent, will also require a change. My proposed change is to enable Rift Surge to imbue ALL FRIENDLY projectiles, suspended in the rift by Stasis, with additional damage up to 100% over the time of each tick of Rift Surge. The number of ticks being determined by power strength as each tick will depend on it. Disengaging Stasis or Rift Surge will cause all damage to be released with the current % of additional damage added to the projectiles released. Sounds convoluted? It really isn't. However, because of this new damage potential, his 4 will have to see some major changes.

Cataclysm - Here is the deal. Clearing out fodder enemies is good and helps you focus on the big baddies. Doing it across 10 rooms, while fun, is, however, not good. In my opinion, this ability needed more tinkering during the rework. Simply giving it scaling damage upon closing it was a lazy move. Here what I think this ability needs now. First, a bit of QoL: Let Limbo stay in the rift when he exits the range of cataclysm. Limbo leaves when he wants. Don't force him out. Second, improve Stasis synergy: Upon activation of stasis, the size of the cataclysm should freeze. Enemies that got caught got caught and I wish to mess with them. The constant shrinking of cataclysm doesn't allow for room to utilize Stasis to its full potential. As a downside, after the duration of stasis is over, the cataclysm should shrink at greater speeds. Increasing each time stasis is activated and deactivated up to x2 of the original speed. When it comes to its grand finale, Cataclysm should pull in all enemies in the rift that are in the LoS of the center of the cataclysm, creating a concentrated implosion, of sorts, that scales by 5% of the enemies health within the radius of the cataclysm's final explosion affected by power strength.

As for the augment, Cataclysmic Continuum, in addition to the 1s added per kill in cataclysm, the radius should also expand by 1m, unaffected by stasis.

EDIT: I forgot to include Limbo's interaction with nullifiers.

Nullifiers currently make Limbo incredibly difficult to utilize. My proposed change for his interaction with them is to have the nullifiers walk free within cataclysm, removing any of its effects for enemies within his bubble. Only upon the bubble reaching the center of the cataclysm, or Limbo himself, should it collapse.

/edit

As for synergies with other frames, after my proposed changes, I see Limbo as a competent addition to any team composition, pubs and organized alike.

You are free to disagree.

One more thing to note is that currently, 2 or more Limbos can hardly coexist in one game. Whenever one triggers stasis, the other limbo is forced to abide its effects his rift as well. This should only happen when the different cataclysms are connected with each other. In any other case, each Limbo should be able to control his own rift within his cataclysm as it can get annoying otherwise, trolling or not. Enemies in the rift that are outside of either of the cataclysms during stasis should abide by the rules of the Limbo who banished them in the first place, while remaining intractable by other Limbos in the rift, via melee, etc.

 

I believe that these changes will make Limbo moddable in 2 ways (with variations of each ofc.):

• Greater duration, and range which will allow his crowd control to shine

and

• Burst DPS with a focus on power strength, efficiency and moderate range

The two of these should exist without much compromise depending on the playstyle of the player.

You are free to disagree.

 

For any mistakes I made in this post I apologize, it is currently 5:36 am EST at the time that I finished writing this thus I'm prone to go out of wack.

Once again, this is MY opinion based on MY history and understanding of Limbo. The way devs think about this frame is entirely up to them and thus they do as they please in the end. I simply am a huge fan of this Warframe and would like to see the best of him used to its full extent, I wouldn't have spent 2 hours of my life typing this bloody thing up if I didn't.

Once again, criticism is welcome and you are free to disagree.

_{I'll go get some sleep now.}

Edited April 13, 2017 by Bonje
Added the nullifier interaction change.

[FriarTuck]

37 minutes ago, Detheris said:

Enemies that die to the the Collapse of Cataclysm need to be treated as Outside the Rift.
Unless we actually want Max range + Max Efficiency 4 spam instant win limbo to remain a thing due to restoring 100+ energy every time cataclysm nukes a room for the cost of 25 energy.

I do not know why, but I don't get any energy from the Collapse - only from killing in the Rift.

[Wyrmius_Prime]

13 hours ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

 

But the thing everyone whines about you can indeed pick things up inside it.

Items will follow your sentinel assuming you have vacuum equipped and they're picked up when you leave the rift. If you have a Kubrow or especially a Kavat like you should, you can't do anything with the dropped items in rift.

[(PSN)psycofang]

1 hour ago, Wyrmius_Prime said:

Items will follow your sentinel assuming you have vacuum equipped and they're picked up when you leave the rift. If you have a Kubrow or especially a Kavat like you should, you can't do anything with the dropped items in rift.

Thought you ment cataclysm

[FriarTuck]

1 hour ago, Wyrmius_Prime said:

Items will follow your sentinel assuming you have vacuum equipped and they're picked up when you leave the rift. If you have a Kubrow or especially a Kavat like you should, you can't do anything with the dropped items in rift.

Do you need items and/or resources? So why do you have Kavat/Kubrow?
Do you need only this rare piece of Gallium / Oberon / Power Throw? Leave the Rift and pick it up. Or just enter Cata.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

i wonder how long they wanna let this farce go on... my best guess is they're waiting for potential cash in on consoles first (srsly tho who would even buy limbo from the market?)...

"Limbo is a Warframe with one of the most complicated skillsets. When his skills are mastered, he becomes an unstoppable force of Rift manipulation. While many have perfected the Limbo, there's been a general sense he needs to be Revisited to make the mastering feel more rewarding."

funny how much of a fail the rework is with this ambition in mind. instead of making mastery of a complicated skill set rewarding (which pretty much applied to limbo pre-rework) said skill set got completely dumbed down and spamming 4 made the prevalent "strategy". sad.

[Wyrmius_Prime]

2 hours ago, FriarTuck said:

Do you need items and/or resources? So why do you have Kavat/Kubrow?

I don't need items or resources, which is the reason I don't have vacuum and use Kavats for the crit buffs and armor stripping instead. Your question makes absolutely no bloody sense.

Edited April 13, 2017 by Wyrmius_Prime

[Insizer]

Banish: I can see your change, it is rather annoying to accidentally banish your allies, but, at the same time, having Limbo just banish the enemies can be annoying.  For example, you have an ally shooting a group of enemies, which Limbo then Banishes, preventing the ally from attacking the enemies, causing salt.  As it is now, you can have it so that the ally is banished as well, preventing said salt. 

Stasis: your change to Stasis doesn't do that much other than give feedback on people's attempts, inadvertent or otherwise, to crash the Stasis.  This isn't the problem with Stasis, the problem is that it takes control of your allies effectively.  What should happen is that the damage that would be dealt to the enemies from the frozen bullets and such is simulated against the enemies' health.

 To better explain:  you have a Soma Prime and stasis an enemy, you then fire the Soma Prime at the enemy each bullet does simulated damage to the enemy as if there were no stasis.  This simulated damage affects a fake health bar which everyone can see, no real damage is dealt to the enemy yet.  Upon releasing Stasis the "frozen" bullets are released, like they they are now, actually dealing that damage to the enemy.

This would allow players to see the health of the enemies and give the realtime feedback (+/- ping) on the progress of killing them, and not worry about over/underkilling them.  This sounds complex to implement but it shouldn't be**.  Upon activating Stasis the enemies health/armor/shields are copied into a fake simulated health/armor/shields bar which is then displayed.  Attacking the frozen enemies would do damage to this health/armor/shields bar in real time, as if you were attacking the enemy normally (basically think of attacking, but turning off the visuals). Upon releasing the Stasis, things work as they do now.  This simulation might not be completely accurate, but it should help things

** Note, I'm not a programmer so I have no idea if it would be or not.  I just think it wouldn't be

Rift Surge:  To be honest, I'm not too sure how your DoT Rift Surge is all that good.  Limbo is rather squishy and excels at separating enemies to deal with them manually.  For DoT to be effective you need for it to be active over a time,  this DoT would also be more fit for dealing damage to multiple enemies at once, but Limbo's squishiness goes against both of these.  The more enemies in the Rift at a given time, and the longer they are in the Rift, the more at risk Limbo is.  He could always mass Banish enemies and/or activate Stasis and turn on the DoT, but I still don't see how it fits all that well with his kit.

[FriarTuck]

57 minutes ago, Wyrmius_Prime said:

I don't need items or resources, which is the reason I don't have vacuum and use Kavats for the crit buffs and armor stripping instead. Your question makes absolutely no bloody sense.

These were abstract questions to the random member of the group with Limbo.
 

[nameomnz]

I think I come up with something

Possibly for his 2nd rework

Banish: Should have toggle mechanic or closer. I think that it's should have target classify on AOE by banish enemy only when target the enemy and banish ally only when target ally.

--Note: I'm thinking about Haven augment rework for make it heal teammates/limbo overtime while in the rift

Stasis: In my thought on making stasis for better gun-play also eliminate the cap for projectile and change how it's functuion

-Make Stasis has penalty duration base on how many enemies in the rift, The penalty will have 5 second cap no matter how many enemies in the rift

-Killing the enemies will add more duration for stasis But will not expand more than base duration for example:If you have 20 second at base on your stasis, You banished 15 enemies and the penalty has reduced your duration to 5 second. But once you killed all the enemies in the rift in 15 second, Your stasis will have only 5 second of duration left.

-Shooting hitcan weapon or projectile will go straight at enemies and damage them. 

-Possibly make it 1 hand cast ability.

(Accessories)

-Explosive projectile: Will only play 1/3 of explosion's animation effect and will play It's full animation when unstasis

-Hitscan/Other projectile: Will leave the trace when fire/throw. The trace's color will base on weapon's energy color. and will disappear when unstasis.

-The enemy that has been killed while in stasis will not play death animation until unstasis (Loots still drop and nekros still can desercrate)

Rift Surge: Add the mechanic.

-Killing the enemy that is under the rift surge effect will explode will deal 10% of that enemy's max health/shield to all the enemies that are in the rift.

-The enemies that has been damaged by the rift surge's first explosion will have overlapping rift surge effect and will recieve 30% more damage.

-The enemies that has been damaged by the rift surge's first and second explosion will have overlapping rift surge effect and will recieve 60% more damage.

-The enemy that is not in the rift but has Rift surge's effect on them(casue by the explosion) can be simply banish(Press1) while limbo is in the rift.

-Alternitively, Killing enemy under the rfit surge's effect will add 30% bonus damage to limbo and teammates(In the rift) for the duration of Rift surge

-Will go on endlessly as long as you have enemies in the rift. Make it a great scaling ability.

--Note: I think bonus damage part should make for Rift torrent augment

Cataclysm: This should stop scaling on damage, But make it scaling in utility.

-The enemies that is in cataclysm will recieve double damage from weapon and warframe power

-Alternitively, Drain 2% of enemy's health(Finisher Damage)

-The enemies that has entered while stasis still active will slowly turn stasis instread of immediately stop.

-No longer have damage scaling

 

 

Edited April 13, 2017 by nameomnz

[johndlnord]

Yes, nerf every frame into the ground, so the only thing doing damage will be our companions.

Imo, Limbo has become what he was advertised as back in the day he was released (Archwing was it?).
Some of you peeps scream NERF everytime you encounter a troll. It's an online game, hence you can't expect everyone to behave or play the way it suits you best.

[Buzkyl]

Cataclysm will be changed as confirmed of Devstream 90.

"Don't get use to it"- DEScott

finally.

[(PSN)psycofang]

Just waiting for it to be viciously nerfed to the floor.

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

21 minutes ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

Just waiting for it to be viciously nerfed to the floor.

They're changing it not nerfing it. We might get a completely new bonus power on Cataclysm that better fits Limbo's theme and kit instead of just a regular vanilla nuke.

[(PSN)psycofang]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)mahoshonenfox said:

They're changing it not nerfing it. We might get a completely new bonus power on Cataclysm that better fits Limbo's theme and kit instead of just a regular vanilla nuke.

Seems a little too soon to straight up change the new power, its probably gonna get a % adjustment.

 

Im pretty cynical about how devs balance things in most games.

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

Seems a little too soon to straight up change the new power, its probably gonna get a % adjustment.

 

Im pretty cynical about how devs balance things in most games.

Doesn't matter if they lower it to 1%, the mechanics is going to deal a lot of damage no matter what. If you can stuff enough enemies in the bubble and cast it enough number of times, people are still gonna use it for spam nuking.

I think they don't want a nuke but they can't remove it either because they already placed something in there. I think its gonna be changed into something else or they will keep the nuke but place more complicated build up rules/mechanics like Equinox Maim so its not abused.

I hope its a new power, though. Imagine if they changed it so that instead of damage, Cataclysm's collapse stuns all surviving enemies.for a duration, opening them to finisher attacks. I would love that.

[(PSN)psycofang]

20 minutes ago, (PS4)mahoshonenfox said:

I hope its a new power, though. Imagine if they changed it so that instead of damage, Cataclysm's collapse stuns all surviving enemies.for a duration, opening them to finisher attacks. I would love that.

 

You can already do that though, id just prefer it be a dot or something.

[Bonje]

7 hours ago, Insizer said:

Banish: I can see your change, it is rather annoying to accidentally banish your allies, but, at the same time, having Limbo just banish the enemies can be annoying.  For example, you have an ally shooting a group of enemies, which Limbo then Banishes, preventing the ally from attacking the enemies, causing salt.  As it is now, you can have it so that the ally is banished as well, preventing said salt. 

Stasis: your change to Stasis doesn't do that much other than give feedback on people's attempts, inadvertent or otherwise, to crash the Stasis.  This isn't the problem with Stasis, the problem is that it takes control of your allies effectively.  What should happen is that the damage that would be dealt to the enemies from the frozen bullets and such is simulated against the enemies' health.

 To better explain:  you have a Soma Prime and stasis an enemy, you then fire the Soma Prime at the enemy each bullet does simulated damage to the enemy as if there were no stasis.  This simulated damage affects a fake health bar which everyone can see, no real damage is dealt to the enemy yet.  Upon releasing Stasis the "frozen" bullets are released, like they they are now, actually dealing that damage to the enemy.

This would allow players to see the health of the enemies and give the realtime feedback (+/- ping) on the progress of killing them, and not worry about over/underkilling them.  This sounds complex to implement but it shouldn't be**.  Upon activating Stasis the enemies health/armor/shields are copied into a fake simulated health/armor/shields bar which is then displayed.  Attacking the frozen enemies would do damage to this health/armor/shields bar in real time, as if you were attacking the enemy normally (basically think of attacking, but turning off the visuals). Upon releasing the Stasis, things work as they do now.  This simulation might not be completely accurate, but it should help things

** Note, I'm not a programmer so I have no idea if it would be or not.  I just think it wouldn't be

Rift Surge:  To be honest, I'm not too sure how your DoT Rift Surge is all that good.  Limbo is rather squishy and excels at separating enemies to deal with them manually.  For DoT to be effective you need for it to be active over a time,  this DoT would also be more fit for dealing damage to multiple enemies at once, but Limbo's squishiness goes against both of these.  The more enemies in the Rift at a given time, and the longer they are in the Rift, the more at risk Limbo is.  He could always mass Banish enemies and/or activate Stasis and turn on the DoT, but I still don't see how it fits all that well with his kit.

8

I like your idea about stasis, however, this would only work with hitscan weapons. Unless the trajectory of the projectile and the movement of enemies is pre-calculated, it wouldn't be much help in that case. Having projectiles change into hitscan could work but I don't know how that can be implemented without feeling strange.

The idea of Rift Surge is to take some pressure off of Limbo when dealing with banished enemies. Like you said Limbo has to deal with them manually which can become tiresome.  My thinking here was to have a set it and forget it when it comes to dealing with weaker enemies without having to clap the cataclysm every few seconds. This also means that you can focus on the big guys more consistently.

[Insizer]

20 minutes ago, Bonje said:

I like your idea about stasis, however, this would only work with hitscan weapons. Unless the trajectory of the projectile and the movement of enemies is pre-calculated, it wouldn't be much help in that case. Having projectiles change into hitscan could work but I don't know how that can be implemented without feeling strange.

The idea of Rift Surge is to take some pressure off of Limbo when dealing with banished enemies. Like you said Limbo has to deal with them manually which can become tiresome.  My thinking here was to have a set it and forget it when it comes to dealing with weaker enemies without having to clap the cataclysm every few seconds. This also means that you can focus on the big guys more consistently.

No, it wouldn't just work with hitscan.  What I'm basically saying is that the weapons function normally, except there are no visuals and the weapons instead deal damage to this "fake" health bar.

As for your Rift Surge idea... I guess... But dealing with weaker enemies is easy and not tiresome because we have weapons that melt weaker enemies.  I don't have issues wiping up those enemies because I banish a few enemies, then pop into the rift and take them out, pop out of the rift, and repeat the process.  Furthermore, by your own admission, you are making an ability that won't scale well, making Limbo 3rd ability useless for high level play.  The current Rift Surge, although wonky, has its purposes.  It is the only way (albeit backwards) Limbo can banish enemies to the Rift, while within the Rift.  It also works well with Cataclysm whereby you drop a bubble, activate Rift Surge, the pop the bubble, forcing the enemies to stay in the Rift while you and your allies are forced out.  In this way, Rift Surge is more of a "take command of the situation" ability than a general use ability, and has a purpose in higher level play at least on paper.  If you are going to replace Rift Surge then make an ability that works just as well, regardless of enemy level rather than an expensive broom for sweeping dust.

[DEATHLOK]

If they had any sense whatsoever, they'd roll Cataclysm back to the earlier version, which was pretty damn cool. They'd get rid of Stasis, if they had any sense whatsoever.

Frankly, they should roll the whole mess back to the previous version and try again, but with more consideration for team play.

...If they had any sense whatsoever.

[(PSN)Seabastion25]

1 hour ago, DEATHLOK said:

If they had any sense whatsoever, they'd roll Cataclysm back to the earlier version, which was pretty damn cool. They'd get rid of Stasis, if they had any sense whatsoever.

Frankly, they should roll the whole mess back to the previous version and try again, but with more consideration for team play.

...If they had any sense whatsoever.

If they do that ooooooooooh the backlash from the new limbo players who picked him up and the mains who relearned him. Whats that noise? Is that a angry mob and pitch forks? Being serious after the good amount of time they put into the rework I doubt they would revert it. I mean all that time.........flush down the drain.