Make Stealth Great Again

[p3z1]

No, seriously, stealth sucks atm. Affinity gains were "fixed," enemies are now smarter on stealth, and things are now more leaned on not stealthing (e.g. barrels and arc traps). You guys should really fix it, or buff it.

Gripes:
1. Enemies detect corpses. Realistic. Too bad we can't hide/destroy corpses reliably. Only ways are corrosive procs, fire procs, blast procs, cold procs to some extent, [see spoiler], and channeling. Skills like bladestorm don't count because they break the counter.
 

Spoiler

Broken scepter

Suggestion: Hiding corpses take time, so that's not a suggestion. Allow players to destroy corpses by interacting with them (void magic) or [refer to spoiler below]. Enemies shouldn't also have .01s detection time of flying corpses (for bow users, you all will get it), maybe give it a full second.

Spoiler

Operator's void ray thing

2. Multishot (as reported by some) breaks stealth, even though they both hit at the same time. Simple suggestion, just don't let them break the counter.
3. Multipliers were "fixed." It was better when it was broken. Maybe add some more multipliers.
Suggestion: Revert changes. Add higher multipliers (up to 10x maybe). Double the grace period as well.
4. Melee strikes that hit the environment trigger enemies. A gripe, but no suggestions/changes wanted on my end.
5. Arc traps are a pain. Wait for enemies to veer away from them, or pop and trigger enemies. Tripping them alerts enemies in a large-ish area.
Suggestion: Arc traps, when killed during stealth, do not explode, they just die.
6. Barrels. Screw them.
Suggestion: Lower AoE. That is all.

Those are suggestions to make stealth great again (hopefully).

[Dwolfknight]

8 minutes ago, p3z1 said:

5. Arc traps are a pain. Wait for enemies to veer away from them, or pop and trigger enemies. Tripping them alerts enemies in a large-ish area.
Suggestion: Arc traps, when killed during stealth, do not explode, they just die.

 

Another solution could be to have them inactive while the alarms are off. After all, why do grineer need them on all the time?

[(PSN)iBoiz]

I agree with you! Stealth really needs improvements. Very hard to maintain 500% buff even if you are invisible.

[RaiuLyn]

Stealth in this game wasn't great to begin with since the very beginning. This thread title doesn't make sense.

They can start by fixing the line of sight. Getting them suspicious lets them see things miles away for some reason.

[(PSN)Feox_PH]

I am still using stealth exterminate for focus and syndicate points farming.  Using Enemy Sense or Enemy Radar should give you an idea if the enemy is alerted (partially filled marker) or not (empty marker).  What I do is kill only those unalerted (empty marker).  If they see a corpse, ignore them for a few seconds and kill the others who are still unalerted.  Just go back to those you ignored when they are no longer alerted (which should be just a few seconds, unless they see another corpse).  It is possible to do this with Hushed/Silenced weapons provided you kill them fast enough before being alerted.

I find it quite challenging and fulfilling keeping the bonus stealth XP up just by killing those who are unalerted.

My weapon and frame of choice is a Primed Fury/Fury modded Covert Lethality Dagger on a stealth/invisible warframe.

[(PSN)Feox_PH]

22 minutes ago, p3z1 said:

5. Arc traps are a pain. Wait for enemies to veer away from them, or pop and trigger enemies. Tripping them alerts enemies in a large-ish area.
Suggestion: Arc traps, when killed during stealth, do not explode, they just die.

You could also snipe the enemies first before destroying the arc trap.  This may be difficult if there are many near the arc trap.

But for me, it is OK to just destroy/activate the arc trap and let them be alerted for a few seconds.  Just don't let them detect you (enemy marker using Enemy Sense/Radar becomes filled).  Kill them once they've become unalerted to keep the bonus stealth XP up.

[p3z1]

19 minutes ago, Dwolfknight said:

Another solution could be to have them inactive while the alarms are off. After all, why do grineer need them on all the time?

Arc traps for those pesky space mosquitoes ;p

12 minutes ago, RaiuLyn said:

Stealth in this game wasn't great to begin with since the very beginning. This thread title doesn't make sense.

They can start by fixing the line of sight. Getting them suspicious lets them see things miles away for some reason.

It actually was TBH, when the affinity numbers weren't fixed yet.

LoS is pretty okay, if there are counters to it (e.g. shadows and all, crouching)

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Feox_PH said:

You could also snipe the enemies first before destroying the arc trap.  This may be difficult if there are many near the arc trap.

But for me, it is OK to just destroy/activate the arc trap and let them be alerted for a few seconds.  Just don't let them detect you (enemy marker using Enemy Sense/Radar becomes filled).  Kill them once they've become unalerted to keep the bonus stealth XP up.

Point 1 is something that happens quite commonly in my experience.

Point 2 makes things A LOT slower than it currently is. Before, it was kinda slow already, waiting for enemies to not clump and all.

[(PSN)Feox_PH]

22 minutes ago, p3z1 said:

Point 1 is something that happens quite commonly in my experience.

Point 2 makes things A LOT slower than it currently is. Before, it was kinda slow already, waiting for enemies to not clump and all.

Previously I would just go invisible and swing around my Orthos Prime mowing down all enemies in high-level exterminate missions to get super high XP numbers.  You can even put Hush on a Tonkor or Synoid Simulor (just don't let them be killed by the Entropy effect) and start killing all the enemies at once keeping the stealth bonus XP up.

Then [DE] made the enemy smarter by noticing the dead beside them which I find it to be quite cool, realistic and challenging.  This time I need to be "stealthy" and just pick them off one at a time. XP gain is still faster than popular squad defense missions since a stealth kill can give you 10 times or more XP per enemy.

37 minutes ago, (PS4)iBoiz said:

I agree with you! Stealth really needs improvements. Very hard to maintain 500% buff even if you are invisible.

It is still possible.  Kill only the unalerted enemies one at a time which can be done by using a covert lethality dagger modded for fast stealth finisher animation.  I actually find it a lot more rewarding than before.

Edited April 19, 2017 by (PS4)Feox_PH

[MudShadow]

There is no stealth in this game. There is basically just god/cheat mode "invisibility".

Edited April 19, 2017 by MudShadow

[RaiuLyn]

Or you can go in as Loki and obliterate everyone with a silenced ogris.

[Fallen_Echo]

My biggest gripe with stealth currently is the supernatural behaviour enemies have.

Nothing like having a grinner butcher stare into your soul while you are invisible.

[(PSN)shadowraith_666]

in order to do that DE has to get rid of the AI telepathy

sort out the enemy spawn points (fissures)

have fissure enemies not immediately run to the alarm console as soon as they spawn and also disable the ability for enemies to use the alarm consoles of the opposing ai faction (fissures and crossfire)

give the AI the ability to differentiate between wildlife/walking through a firepit and an opposing ai faction/tenno, to many times the alarms/instant lockdown are triggered without us being anywhere near them

[Xzorn]

Barrels. Ah that's one of the 8 stealth nerfs I had written down. Thanks for reminding me of that obnoxious change.

Stealth as a game play mechanic has only really only gotten one change since this game went open beta, which was the Cautious alert status. Outside that everything else has been mechanical changes to hinder affinity gains. Stealth was never good to begin with, esp as an actual game play mechanic. Which is esp funny with the whole "Space Ninja" theme.

Think about it. if you're not interested in affinity gains, what have they changed? There's no repercussions to running into enemies, no change to your ability to kill regardless of alert status. ie You still get x8 multipliers and enemies still make little to no effort to find or kill you.

Stealth = Immortal + x8 Damage

There's a reason only Ash / Ivara / Naramon can Solo MoT past 2 hours and it's because stealth is still quite broken. Ah but don't even get me started on T4 damage multipliers. Such a stupid idea....

[p3z1]

7 hours ago, (PS4)Feox_PH said:

XP gain is still faster than popular squad defense missions since a stealth kill can give you 10 times or more XP per enemy.

Only up to 5x. Go back and do stealth kills.

7 hours ago, (PS4)Feox_PH said:

It is still possible.  Kill only the unalerted enemies one at a time which can be done by using a covert lethality dagger modded for fast stealth finisher animation.  I actually find it a lot more rewarding than before.

Still not fast enough for enemies to probably catch you. Less viable with clumped enemies. Very less viable with limited energy (assuming you forgot your plates at the orbiter). Much more less viable with non-invisible frames.

[Nazrethim]

Some extra stuff:

-Add, on stealth focused missions, enemies that can see trough invisibility

-Disable enemy hivemind except for Infested and Corrupted.

-Make level alarms no longer reveal your position in real time, instead making enemies go "alert" without actually seeing you and keeping the guard up until you turn it off, either under heavy fire or in a different room if you broke line of sight

-Make enemies no longer notice flying corpses.

-Add a mod for Kunais that makes them distract enemies (essentially a small scale Ivara's noise arrow) when it hits near them out of their line of sight.

-Make Stealth attacks destroy the corpse by default instead of requiring Channeling

[(PSN)Feox_PH]

1 hour ago, p3z1 said:

Only up to 5x. Go back and do stealth kills.

That is the bonus stealth affinity.

Killing an Elite Lancer on Adaro (Sedna) that has detected you (filled Enemy marker on map) gives you around 268 to 274 XP.  Killing an same Elite Lancer on Adaro (Sedna) that is unalerted (empty Enemy marker on map) with 500% stealth bonus gives you around 2700 to 2740 XP.  It is like killing 10 enemies worth of XP in one shot.

I did not really check how XP bonus works but those are the numbers I get if I keep the stealth bonus XP up at 500%.  The enemy levels range from 32 to 36.

1 hour ago, p3z1 said:

Still not fast enough for enemies to probably catch you. Less viable with clumped enemies. Very less viable with limited energy (assuming you forgot your plates at the orbiter). Much more less viable with non-invisible frames.

Unless I find an efficient squad on Hydron (Sedna) or the other popular squad XP farm, I usually get more XP in the same amount of time spent in Adaro (Sedna) solo.

Go back and do stealth kills and see for yourself.

TIP: My warframe and weapon of choice, Loki or Ash with Covert Lethality dagger modded with Primed Fury or Fury for fast stealth kill animation.  Use Enemy Sense or Enemy Radar to see enemy markers on map. Ignore alerted enemies (partially or filled enemy marker) and only kill unalerted ones (empty enemy marker).  Avoid detection (being seen).  It is OK to kill an enemy beside another enemy.  The alerted enemy will eventually become unalerted in a few seconds for the stealth kill.

Edited April 19, 2017 by (PS4)Feox_PH

[p3z1]

35 minutes ago, (PS4)Feox_PH said:

That is the bonus stealth affinity.

Killing an Elite Lancer on Adaro (Sedna) that has detected you (filled Enemy marker on map) gives you around 268 to 274 XP.  Killing an same Elite Lancer on Adaro (Sedna) that is unalerted (empty Enemy marker on map) with 500% stealth bonus gives you around 2700 to 2740 XP.  It is like killing 10 enemies worth of XP in one shot.

Let's call a truce for the numbers (tested on Telesto, Saturn because releveling vectis prime).

Spoiler

Lv 22 Elite Lancer

Affinity gain on kill. No multipliers or boosters

Another Lv22 Elite Lancer, note the 500% multiplier

Same elite lancer dying. Note affinity gain

 

35 minutes ago, (PS4)Feox_PH said:

I did not really check how XP bonus works but those are the numbers I get if I keep the stealth bonus XP up at 500%.

As do I, it feels #*($%%@ up atm.

 

35 minutes ago, (PS4)Feox_PH said:

Unless I find an efficient squad on Hydron (Sedna) or the other popular squad XP farm, I usually get more XP in the same amount of time spent in Adaro (Sedna) solo.

-snip-

TIP: My warframe and weapon of choice, Loki or Ash with Covert Lethality dagger modded with Primed Fury or Fury for fast stealth kill animation.  Use Enemy Sense or Enemy Radar to see enemy markers on map. Ignore alerted enemies (partially or filled enemy marker) and only kill unalerted ones (empty enemy marker).  Avoid detection (being seen).  It is OK to kill an enemy beside another enemy.  The alerted enemy will eventually become unalerted in a few seconds for the stealth kill.

I don't do lvling spots due to 3rd world S#&$ternets.

Also using Loki, because longest Invis with minimal effort (Octavia has longer stealth time, but with more effort, I am lazy). Using enemy sense mod + radar mod for companions (forgot name)/

Edited April 19, 2017 by p3z1

[(PSN)Feox_PH]

16 minutes ago, p3z1 said:

I don't do lvling spots due to 3rd world S#&$ternets.

It's more fun solo.  

I can't test the numbers right now as I have an affinity booster active (due to a recent update regarding "weapon balancing") which may skew results.  But you should try Adaro (Sedna) as the level numbers as well as XP are higher.  There are a lot of Scorch and Napalm that give tons of XP.  So I normally make sure that I have 500% XP bonus up when I kill them.

I use the above method for focus and syndicate points (or melee level-up, or one-hit kill weapon level-up).  For non-stealth solo warframe level-up, I use Naramon Shadow Step on Selkie (Sedna Survival).  Strategic Execution is also activated giving you 25% additional XP on melee kills.  Usually beats random squad based XP farm for the same amount of time.

Edited April 19, 2017 by (PS4)Feox_PH

[p3z1]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)Feox_PH said:

It's more fun solo.  

I can't test the numbers right now as I have an affinity booster active (due to a recent update regarding "weapon balancing") which may skew results.  But you should try Adaro (Sedna) as the level numbers as well as XP are higher.  There are a lot of Scorch and Napalm that give tons of XP.  So I normally make sure that I have 500% XP bonus up when I kill them.

Again, leveling vectis prime. I'd do Adaro as well if I find myself bearing affinity farming.

 

9 minutes ago, (PS4)Feox_PH said:

Strategic Execution is also activated giving you 25% additional XP on melee kills.  Usually beats random squad based XP farm for the same amount of time.

Bingo. No wonder we're getting different numbers.

[p3z1]

Damned 3rd world S#&$ternet

Edited April 19, 2017 by p3z1
Doublepost

[(PSN)Feox_PH]

39 minutes ago, p3z1 said:

Bingo. No wonder we're getting different numbers.

I did not use Naramon Shadow Step on Adaro (Sedna Exterminate) for focus or syndicate farming (I was using Zenurik).  I used Naramon Shadow Step on Selkie (Sedna Survival) for non-stealth warframe level-up from 0 to 30.

[Iccotak]

Level design needs to be re-visted for older levels, Kuva Fortress offers many ways to stealth across the map. I would like to see ventilation shafts and platforms throughout the entire Corpus level. 

[(PSN)Feox_PH]

2 hours ago, p3z1 said:

Let's call a truce for the numbers (tested on Telesto, Saturn because releveling vectis prime).

Here are some screenshots from an Adaro (Sedna Exterminate) missions:

Spoiler

Alerted Level 32 Elite Lancer:

Alerted Level 32 Elite Lancer XP with Affinity Booster = +540

Unalerted Level 32 Elite Lancer:

Unalerted Level 32 Elite Lancer XP with 500% Bonus and Affinity Booster = +5400

I remember seeing the same 10x multiplier without Affinity Booster (from 270 to 2700).

According to the Wiki about Affinity:

Affinity = Enemy Base Affinity × (1 + 0.1425 × Enemy Level^0.5)

Elite Lancer base affinity is 150 so:

Level 32 Elite Lancer Affinity = 150 x (1+0.1425x32^0.5) = 270

With the Affinity Booster = 270 x 2 = 540 which is consistent with the Alerted Elite Lancer XP.

I am not sure why the Unalerted Elite Lancer XP is 5400 though (2 x 500%?).  But I remember seeing the same results without affinity boosters (from 270 to 2700).  I will try again once the Affinity Booster expires.

In the meantime, can someone please clarify how to calculate stealth affinity bonus?

[Fallen_Echo]

4 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

 

-Disable enemy hivemind except for Infested and Corrupted.

 

I start to realise that i play skyrim in the future

Enemy behaviour to stealth

 

On a serious note:

4 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

-Make enemies no longer notice flying corpses.

I dont want the mobs in this game to act like the bandits in skyrim, crossing a pile of dead bodies to sit down next to their decapitated leader and act like

[(PSN)Feox_PH]

On 4/19/2017 at 9:01 PM, p3z1 said:

Let's call a truce for the numbers (tested on Telesto, Saturn because releveling vectis prime).

Just a follow-up, here are the XP numbers with no affinity boosters:

Spoiler

Alerted Level 32 Elite Lancer:

Alerted Level 32 Elite Lancer XP = +270

Unalerted Level 32 Elite Lancer:

Unalerted Level 32 Elite Lancer with 500% stealth bonus XP = +2700

So, in Adaro (Sedna), you get roughly around 10x enemy XP for each stealth kill with 500% stealth bonus active.  Using a fast Covert Lethality dagger, you can get more XP in a short amount of time since each enemy kill is like getting 10 times more XP per kill from the usual regular XP farm.