Oberon Feedback 20.3.1 and beyond

[-Onyx-Phalian]

1 minute ago, Suira said:

So I just took a Phoenix Renewal Oberon build into LoR and it didn't work. Half of the time people would just die. At the end of the Vay Hek fight we always kill ourselves in the fire and only the host and I self rezzed.
Also, the number on the renewal spazzed out constantly.

Remember that it has a 90 second cooldown. They may have died when you weren't paying attention and died again while it was on cooldown. 

[Suira]

6 minutes ago, Phalian said:

Remember that it has a 90 second cooldown. They may have died when you weren't paying attention and died again while it was on cooldown. 

Nope, when someone dies they get a red debuff. I was paying attention and they did not get the red debuff. I noticed it multiple times but the fire at the end is where it was incredibly obvious that it was not working as intended.

[-Onyx-Phalian]

Just now, Suira said:

Nope, when someone dies they get a red debuff. I was paying attention and they did not get the red debuff. I noticed it multiple times but the fire at the end is where it was incredibly obvious that it was not working as intended.

Hmmm, perhaps it is a bug. You may want to report it. 

[Suira]

Just now, Phalian said:

Hmmm, perhaps it is a bug. You may want to report it. 

A  couple of the older players and I theorized that the renewal struggles to identify more than 4 players. So if this is the case then it is a bug.

[-Onyx-Phalian]

Just now, Suira said:

A  couple of the older players and I theorized that the renewal struggles to identify more than 4 players. So if this is the case then it is a bug.

That does sound logical. As I said before, please report it as that would still technically be a bug. 

[-Onyx-Phalian]

Just now, MarrikBroom said:

OK so it's almost 11pm/2300 CDT. Best make some final thoughts before morning guys, or afternoon if you're in Euroland.

You do know that they said they would look at the forums Tuesday or Wednesday, not Monday. 

[SenorClipClop]

9 hours ago, Phalian said:

Smite's "scaling" us down right laughable as you either have to use Power Strength to make your other abilities decent or negative Power Strength so your Smite orbs can actually pack a punch.

While you're watching all these Youtube reviews of Oberon, you are noticing that Smite is two-shotting Level 80 units, right? What other Warframe power does that?

Sure, Smite's damage is being heavily mitigated when the target has heavy Armor, but that same rule applies for literally every other power in the game. As it sits right now, the EHP damage that Smite is dealing to high-level targets, that a one-handed 25 energy power is dealing to high-level targets, is fiercely OP. Do me a favor and try Smite on a Level 80 Corpus Tech or Ancient and watch it quickly die. Then give your sympathies to Ember, Nekros and all the other Warframes whose #1 powers now pale by comparison. (While we're at it, it's also a long-distance knockdown and reduces an enemy's damage by 20%, but there are so many players conveniently forgetting this.)

What exactly are people expecting when they hear the term "scaling"? To be able to press a button 3 times and kill literally any enemy?

[-Onyx-Phalian]

Just now, SenorClipClop said:

While you're watching all these Youtube reviews of Oberon, you are noticing that Smite is two-shotting Level 80 units, right? What other Warframe power does that?

Sure, Smite's damage is being heavily mitigated when the target has heavy Armor, but that same rule applies for literally every other power in the game. As it sits right now, the EHP damage that Smite is dealing to high-level targets, that a one-handed 25 energy power is dealing to high-level targets, is fiercely OP. Do me a favor and try Smite on a Level 80 Corpus Tech or Ancient and watch it quickly die. Then give your sympathies to Ember, Nekros and all the other Warframes whose #1 powers now pale by comparison. (While we're at it, it's also a long-distance knockdown and reduces an enemy's damage by 20%, but there are so many players conveniently forgetting this.)

What exactly are people expecting when they hear the term "scaling"? To be able to press a button 3 times and kill literally any enemy?

I have. I also know for a fact that he used a target with exceptionally high Health as his target and that the other targets the orbs hit have very low Armor stats. Try hitting a Heavy Gunner with Smite with a couple Grineer Lancers and you'll see it does absolutely nothing. My proposed change was to instead have 35% of the initial target's health split evenly between the orbs, have each orb simply deal 5.8% (before you ask why, Smite releases 6 orbs, 6 orbs x 5.8% = ~34%) so that increased Power Strength would increase hitting power but without going too out of control because of scaling Shields (which has a resistance to Radiation) and scaling Armor. 

[SenorClipClop]

3 minutes ago, Phalian said:

I have. I also know for a fact that he used a target with exceptionally high Health as his target and that the other targets the orbs hit have very low Armor stats. Try hitting a Heavy Gunner with Smite with a couple Grineer Lancers and you'll see it does absolutely nothing. My proposed change was to instead have 35% of the initial target's health split evenly between the orbs, have each orb simply deal 5.8% (before you ask why, Smite releases 6 orbs, 6 orbs x 5.8% = ~34%) so that increased Power Strength would increase hitting power but without going too out of control because of scaling Shields (which has a resistance to Radiation) and scaling Armor. 

Interesting. But don't you think this would be overpowered if Oberon built high Strength and used it on non-Armored targets?

[-Defeater-]

1 minute ago, MarrikBroom said:

I want a reason to use hallowed Ground that isn't 'we're forcing you to cast this to actually make effective use of your powers

this. so much this.

trying to play oberon in pub match feels almost impossible to make use of the armor buff of hallowed ground since you not only have to have everyone stand on the tiny &#! half circle (or maybe decent size if you throw on over extended, gimping your healing, in which case why are you even playing oberon), but allies need to be near you WHEN YOU CAST in order to receive buff. 

DE. Please make it so you get the healing after you cast by just walking next to oberon. 

its literally the worst. you end up recasting only to switch the buff to other team mates, and theres literally no reason to play him if you need a healer since trin does the same thing with infinite energy for the whole team plus flat 75% damage reduction which is better in any situation over oberon. IK he isnt supposed to be good in one specific area, and supposedly a jack of all trades, but if youve got on ok 1, a 2 which is almost always used only to get the benefit from it for the other 2 abilities, a heal over time with crap range and needing everyone to be in one spot every time it sucks you dry of energy, and a 4 with little range that you need to spam over and over, then what good is he. 

[-Onyx-Phalian]

Just now, SenorClipClop said:

Interesting. But don't you think this would be overpowered if Oberon built high Strength and used it on non-Armored targets?

An excellent observation. But Flesh also has a resistance to Radiation, granted not as much as Shields but still some. By no means do I believe that 5.8% is the end all solution, simply an example to make it easier to follow my logic. This method is meant to reward building strength so Smite can deal actual damage. The down side is that you're basically building Oberon to spam 1 ability since his other abilities require a bit more of a balancing act in terms of stats. 

[SenorClipClop]

3 minutes ago, Phalian said:

An excellent observation. But Flesh also has a resistance to Radiation, granted not as much as Shields but still some. By no means do I believe that 5.8% is the end all solution, simply an example to make it easier to follow my logic. This method is meant to reward building strength so Smite can deal actual damage. The down side is that you're basically building Oberon to spam 1 ability since his other abilities require a bit more of a balancing act in terms of stats. 

But my whole point was that Smite is dealing tons and tons of damage as it is now. It's two-shotting Level 80 units, which is something that no other power in the game can do for the same energy cost.

If we compare Oberon's 1 to other 1s in the game that are standard "Warframe lobs a damaging projectile in target direction" powers, the implications are clear:

• Ember deals 400 damage and inflicts a proc, with a 150-damage AoE
• Frost deals 350 damage and inflicts a proc, with a 150-damage AoE
• Ash deals 500 damage on up to 2 targets and inflicts a proc, dealing half of that damage over time
• Volt deals 200 damage and inflicts a proc, chaining to up to 5 enemies
• Nekros deals 500 damage, inflicts a proc and deals minor area damage behind the target
• Oberon deals 500 damage, inflicts three procs (Rad, Puncture, Knockdown) and creates damaging projectiles capable of dealing hundreds, even thousands of damage to the same target or ones nearby.

If this isn't "actual damage", what is? What is our expectation of what Oberon's 25-energy spammable power can do?

[-Onyx-Phalian]

1 minute ago, SenorClipClop said:

But my whole point was that Smite is dealing tons and tons of damage as it is now. It's two-shotting Level 80 units, which is something that no other power in the game can do for the same energy cost.

If we compare Oberon's 1 to other 1s in the game that are standard "Warframe lobs a damaging projectile in target direction" powers, the implications are clear:

• Ember deals 400 damage and inflicts a proc, with a 150-damage AoE
• Frost deals 350 damage and inflicts a proc, with a 150-damage AoE
• Ash deals 500 damage on up to 2 targets and inflicts a proc, dealing half of that damage over time
• Volt deals 200 damage and inflicts a proc, chaining to up to 5 enemies
• Nekros deals 500 damage, inflicts a proc and deals minor area damage behind the target
• Oberon deals 500 damage, inflicts three procs (Rad, Puncture, Knockdown) and creates damaging projectiles capable of dealing hundreds, even thousands of damage to the same target or ones nearby.

If this isn't "actual damage", what is? What is our expectation of what Oberon's 25-energy spammable power can do?

I never did say it was a perfect idea, simply a suggestion. It's good to see you did some research and your argument is not simply reactionary. The scaling would allow it to deal more damage than the average 1 (though rivaling most of the 1 abilities of more recent frames) but scaling armor would keep it from going insane. Of course testing would be necessary to determine how effective this solution would be. 

[SenorClipClop]

1 hour ago, MarrikBroom said:

I want a reason to use hallowed Ground that isn't 'we're forcing you to cast this to actually make effective use of your powers'

How about status immunity? In more static mission types and features (Def, Mobi Def, Kuva Siphons/Floods), being immune to Slash, Toxin, Knockdown, Slow, Puncture, Heat, etc. is pretty strong, last time I checked.

[Music4Therapy]

Oberon is basically a squad friendly Chroma right now. He grants armor to himself and allies much like Chroma, but he also restores their hp while also providing light CC and possibly acts as a buffer.

What is preventing Oberon from being successful right now?

Well, the abilities that tie Chroma's kit together, his 2 and 3, both share the same desire to stack strength, duration, and survivability. Because of this, he can focus on those 3 things and function very well.

Oberon's abilities that tie his kit together are his 2, 3, and 4. Due to the fact Smite scales, he doesn't need to place emphasis on it for it to be effective: With str it deals more base damage and hits more targets, with less str the damage is more focused and the orbs pack more of a punch. His 2, 3, and 4 and the synergies between them all require different stats in order to work though, and because the success of one is tied to another he can't succeed without being able to make use of all 3 like his kit is designed to do.

If you don't build around his 4 you may as well have a Trinity in your group, who is capable of healing and providing DR many times better than Oberon. If you place heavy emphasis on his Iron Renewal and sacrifice Duration/Rng/Eff to do so, sure you have high personal survival but since you lack the Dur/Eff to share these benefits with allies which results in you being Chroma lite. 

If Oberon were able to replace Rage, Efficiency, and Primed Flow with mods that strengthened his kit, he would be able to truly flourish without being overly powerful as he would then have range/dur/str/survivability to build around, how different players choose to split his stats around differing from player to player. Because right now needing literally everything is making him build around allowing his kit to function rather than allowing his kit to excel.

 

Edit: And that is why I propose the addition of an energy gaining mechanic. There have been many suggested here, whether its receiving energy for kills made on Hallowed Ground or the orbs Smite creates to create energy when they hit enemies. Some kind of mechanic is needed and that will allow him to both focus on strengthening his kit as proposed while also solving the energy problem he is currently having.

Edited May 1, 2017 by Music4Therapy

[-Defeater-]

5 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

How about status immunity? In more static mission types and features (Def, Mobi Def, Kuva Siphons/Floods), being immune to Slash, Toxin, Knockdown, Slow, Puncture, Heat, etc. is pretty strong, last time I checked.

because those things only become dangerous in high level missions, where his healing wont help you cause youll be one shot anyways without even suffering from a would be status effect. also the range is crap atm causing yoh to spam it, causting tons of energy, or use range mods, stretch isnt enough and overextend messes with your healing. you need to build for everything and 8 slots isnt enough to do it in a way that would make taking him viable. 

[nameomnz]

I don't know how this thing get into my mind

But hear this..

What if when we cast Renewal on Hallowed Ground that has enemy stand on it, The armor buff will scale off that enemy health and shield.

So basically scaling on surviability, The higher the enemy level the more armor you going to have.

Might have to tweek a bit to not make it overpowered.

[The_Grimmrock]

54 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

Grimmrock of Reddit compiled as much of the /r/warframe subreddit's comments and suggestions into video form.

Saterday Feedback Summary:

Sunday Feedback Summary:

 

Oh snap, I was just about to post those myself. I did forget to mention in the second video the often requested changed that Reckoning spawn health orbs on hit, or if you killed an enemy during the secondary affects of reckoning instead of on kill, as in later content its not an effective method of killing enemies and because of such you dont actually see many if any health orbs out of it at all. 

Thanks alot MerrikBroom

Edited May 1, 2017 by Grimmboski
additional information

[PsiWarp]

Would be nice if Oberon could spawn both Health and Energy Orbs. Maybe tie the Energy Orb chance to Smite's initial target and allow Reckoning's Health Orb chance to last throughout the blind time + on kill by any source.

[Windy_Wind]

50 minutes ago, PsiWarp said:

Would be nice if Oberon could spawn both Health and Energy Orbs. Maybe tie the Energy Orb chance to Smite's initial target and allow Reckoning's Health Orb chance to last throughout the blind time + on kill by any source.

that would be a nice idea actually.but the problem is the blind time is ridiculously low for it to be practical unless they buff the duration as well. 

[Straxxes]

I'm not a big forum fan, but now this topic hits a very sensitive nerve so I decided to reply to this post.

My opinion about my long, long,long....long...LOOOOOONG awaited rework is:

I love the ideas what Scott had about the frame, he just said word by word what I was thinking: "No big reworks on the skills, just some tweeks". I jumped up in joy when I heard it, because my major issue was for example Reckoning did not have the range in my opinion, same problem like old Saryns Miasma range, but that could be compensated.

Now as I try the frame and testing it, my dear Broberon gained a very nice new kit, seriously the ideas behind the skills are awesome....but unfortunately there are four major problems what I experience:

- The range of Hallowed Ground is diabolical, less then before (!!!) and since now it is a crucial synergy tool it is kinda unforgivable... even with stretch, almost feels like overextended is mandatory.

- Airborne or box standing characters are not affected by Hallowed Grounds. To a certain degree this makes sense, but on the same side of the coin, someone stands on an average size box and he will not get the armor buff, which makes the frame tedious to time his skills. Making him less appealing for use.

- Renewal... its finally a glorious support skill especially with the augment, it is magic...But...once the augment effect pops up, the target looses every other effect of the skill, and I have to find a miraculous moment when every three members on the same (thiny!!!) spot standing on their feet for maximum potential. Its not very pleasant.

- Reckonings range is bigger than Hallowed Grounds, making it VERY inefficient for armor debuffing usage. There always be targets who will be outside of that effect. It just does not make any bloody sense to me....

So my final conclusion that I like the idea behind the changes, but he is now a very energy inefficient frame who suffers some technical and range issues... 

Give him some more love.... just a few breadcrumbs...will you? He deserves it....

 

 

Edited May 1, 2017 by Straxxes

[Straxxes]

Oh also, I forgot to mention:

I understand you don't want to break the frame with giving him to much energy restoration options while he has renewal on, but for god sake can you imaging a scenario where Oberon can keep that buff for a mediocre time on a RAID PARTY??? (after the effort to put it on ALL of them?!?!?!)

No chance! :D

[The_Grimmrock]

35 minutes ago, Straxxes said:

I'm not a big forum fan, but now this topic hits a very sensitive nerve so I decided to reply to this post.

My opinion about my long, long,long....long...LOOOOOONG awaited rework is:

I love the ideas what Scott had about the frame, he just said word by word what I was thinking: "No big reworks on the skills, just some tweeks". I jumped up in joy when I heard it, because my major issue was for example Reckoning did not have the range in my opinion, same problem like old Saryns Miasma range, but that could be compensated.

Now as I try the frame and testing it, my dear Broberon gained a very nice new kit, seriously the ideas behind the skills are awesome....but unfortunately there are four major problems what I experience:

- The range of Hallowed Ground is diabolical, less then before (!!!) and since now it is a crucial synergy tool it is kinda unforgivable... even with stretch, almost feels like overextended is mandatory.

- Airborne or box standing characters are not affected by Hallowed Grounds. To a certain degree this makes sense, but on the same side of the coin, someone stands on an average size box and he will not get the armor buff, which makes the frame tedious to time his skills. Making him less appealing for use.

- Renewal... its finally a glorious support skill especially with the augment, it is magic...But...once the augment effect pops up, the target looses every other effect of the skill, and I have to find a miraculous moment when every three members on the same (thiny!!!) spot standing on their feet for maximum potential. Its not very pleasant.

- Reckonings range is bigger than Hallowed Grounds, making it VERY inefficient for armor debuffing usage. There always be targets who will be outside of that effect. It just does not make any bloody sense to me....

So my final conclusion that I like the idea behind the changes, but he is now a very energy inefficient frame who suffers some technical and range issues... 

Give him some more love.... just a few breadcrumbs...will you? He deserves it....

 

 

if you didnt catch those vids above with the community feedback, we covered most of what you address here, take a gander, you might like what we've come up with on reddit. 

[Music4Therapy]

-Wanted this to have its own thread to discuss how other frames compare to him in his current state. Whereas the megathread is for Feedback on the rework, this thread is here to discuss where he stands currently-

 

In my opinion, Oberon is basically a squad friendly Chroma right now. He grants armor to himself and allies much like Chroma, but instead of scaling with said armor via Vex Armor he instead restores allies hp while also providing light CC and possibly acts as a buffer.

So where does he stand?

Well, the abilities that tie Chroma's kit together, his 2 and 3, both share the same desire to stack strength, duration, and survivability. Because of this, he can focus on those 3 things and function very well.

Oberon's abilities that tie his kit together are his 2, 3, and 4. Due to the fact Smite scales, he doesn't need to place emphasis on it for it to be effective: With str it deals more base damage and hits more targets, with less str the damage is more focused and the orbs pack more of a punch. His 2, 3, and 4 and the synergies between them all require different stats in order to work though, and because the success of one is tied to another he can't succeed without being able to make use of all 3 like his kit is designed to do.

If you don't build around his 4 you may as well have a Trinity in your group, who is capable of healing and providing DR many times better than Oberon. If you place heavy emphasis on his Iron Renewal and sacrifice Duration/Rng/Eff to do so, sure you have high personal survival but since you lack the Dur/Eff to share these benefits with allies which results in you being Chroma lite. 

If Oberon were able to replace Rage, Efficiency, and Primed Flow with mods that strengthened his kit, he would be able to truly flourish without being overly powerful as he would then have range/dur/str/survivability to build around, how different players choose to split his stats around differing from player to player. Because right now needing literally everything is making him build around allowing his kit to function rather than allowing his kit to excel.

That said, with the increased survivability he provides to party members, shieldgating being a thing in the near future, status/cc immunity, nice CC of his own, and the existence of Phoenix Renewal and Smite Infusion Oberon is a great addition to any pub group as a support and very appealing to solo players due to his combination of defense and cc.

 

TL;DR I love the rework, while I do agree the synergy in his kit was forced that doesn't matter to me. They were able to make him substantially stronger without changing too much about him. Not only is he better, but its extremely gratifying whenever I see Phoenix Renewal save someone's life. Its extremely gratifying having everyone gather around me because they want what I have to offer. A way to gain energy within his kit would be ideal, though and would go a long way towards making him not only more consistent but would allow him to really thrive.

Edited May 1, 2017 by Music4Therapy

[IceColdHawk]

45 minutes ago, Straxxes said:

So my final conclusion that I like the idea behind the changes, but he is now a very energy inefficient frame who suffers some technical and range issues... 

I pretty much agree with this. I'd also like to have more range on reckoning considering it locks you into a casting animation and is no hard cc. It can get very dangerous casting it while the corpus tech from only 25 meters snipes you while you're casting.

Edited May 1, 2017 by IceColdHawk