Drop Rates, Datamines, and Digital Extremes (DDD).

[SicSlaver]

16 hours ago, GhostLacuna said:

So because you dont think it adds anything to your enjoyment you think your opinion is the only one that matters?

what a childish way to look at things.

The players that want to know the real data myself included dont want the story ruined for you or anyone else.

what we want is for the real numbers for mechanical formulas and drop rates to actually be shown.

Some common bronze mods are more rare then rare golden mods due to what enemy drop what mod and on what node and in what level range.

and intact relic show the rare drop on its drop table as a sliver of a bar (actual number is 2% per the wiki)

refine it to radiant and it will show a nearly full bar (actual real chance is 10%)

when chesa kubrows where released found eggs had a flat 0% chance to ever be a chesa. only bought eggs with platinum actually had a chance to be a chesa.

That is one of the many reasons why people depended on dataminers or experiments to actually see how things worked.

Now tell me where in the damn game can you learn how saryns spore actually interact with toxin procs? oh that is right you cant because the data is not there.

we had to find out by experiment and other ways that 25% of the toxin damage is added to the viral proc as burst damage.

Dont get me started on how Shotgun status works up until 100% status.

People want the real numbers to make informed decisions on what to do in the game.

If you dont need or want that its your decision.

you can for example play diablo 3 with its bare basic stats display that tell you nothing and people like me can turn on the expanded information.

as per your example i would know i could do 100 relic runs on that specific relic and have a statistical chance of getting it around 9 times.

i have done runs with entire communities over 10000 times on one single mission just to open a chest to verify drop tables as low as on the promille scale.

Some like me trive and like to do these things

Never assume just because you dont need the information it stands true for the entire community.

 

Omfg, you reminded me of that terrible Chesa incident. I can't believe I spent so much time hatching and collecting eggs for all of it to go to waste. I've even become complacent and didn't even bother mentioning about the bar that misrepresents the relic chances and just shrugged it off as DE being their usual skeezy self and didn't bother to think about it because the wiki existed with the percentages. Imagine if that didn't exist and DE was allowed to lie with absolutely no repercussions? We wouldn't even be getting this thing they're working on that shows the percentages if they're not doing it for damage control's sake. Yet there are still people defending this company and the screw you over, meanwhile the dataminers that reveal their fraudulent actions are to be shunned?

I didn't even know about the Toxin damage relation with Saryn's spores and I was sure I read the wiki on her abilities a few times!

[sinisteran]

"Unpopular opinion digital-extremes did nothing wrong concerning the void_gltich incident"

Before I begin I would like to say I only have a degree in english law. So my comments may be incorrect in relation to the US and Canada legal systems.

Firstly Data Mining is part of fair use in the case of drop rates and stuff like that. In Authors Guild, Inc. v. Google, Inc the judges submitted that 'purposes of substantive research, including data mining and text mining in new areas' is part of fair use, so in relation to this Void_glitch did nothing wrong.

However and this is the interesting part. What Void_glitch did breached the parameters of fair use and going into infringement of copyright. The Art- Prime access, Prisma stuff, Primed streamline. Is the intellectual property of Digital extremes and in extension to Leyou the parent. And posting such images are a breach. DE has in their EULA that all images of/ in the game are subject to copyright to ensure their protection. Therefore posting these mined images beforehand is a breach of their copyright. This is explicitly stated in section 3B

b. All rights and title in and to the Software, the Game, the Service, the Site, your Account and all content included therein (including, without limitation, Accounts, computer code, titles, objects, artifacts, characters, character names, locations, location names, stories, storylines, dialogue, catch phrases, artwork, graphics, structural or landscape designs, animations, sounds, musical compositions and recordings, audio-visual works, character likenesses, and methods of operation) are owned by Digital Extremes or its licensors. The Software may contain materials licensed by third parties, and the licensors of those materials may enforce their rights in the event of any violation of this Agreement. The Software and the Game and all content therein are protected by Canada and the United States and other international intellectual property laws. Digital Extremes and its licensors reserve all rights in connection with the Software and the Game, including, without limitation, the exclusive right to create derivative works there from, and you agree that you will not create any work of authorship based on the Game except as expressly permitted by Digital Extremes. You acknowledge and agree that you have no interest, monetary or otherwise, in any feature or content contained in the Game. You further acknowledge and agree that you shall have no ownership or other property interest in your Account, and you acknowledge and agree that all rights in and to the Account are and shall forever be owned by and inure to the benefit of Digital Extremes.

Secondly. Reverse engineering of computer software is a breach of contract. The Umbra and the Primed streamline incident may not be a hack by Void_glitch but his datamine contributed to it happening. Therefore Void_glitche's actions may be a part of the chain of causation that lead to the hacks. Legal causation is expressed through 'foreseeability' and Void_gltiches actions of datamining could be taken into account into how Umbra was hacked into the game.

Void_glitch will not be liable if : A: Despite his datamine Umbra was going to be hacked anyway and/or B: Umbra/ streamline was hacked completely without relation to his data mining.

Legality aside Digital extremes has in their Jan 2013 EULA specifically in section 2B that 'reverse engineer, decompile, disassemble or otherwise derive source code or game data from the Software or reduce the Software to a human-readable form, except to the extent that such actions are expressly permitted by applicable law' and due to Void_glitche's contributions leading to the hacks he has not only broken section 2B but also 2H and 2I

2h. use any unauthorized third-party software that intercepts, “mines”, or otherwise collects information from, within or through the Software or Service, including without limitation, any software that reads areas of RAM used by the Software to store information about a character, in-game items or the Software environment; provided, however, that Digital Extremes may, in its sole discretion, allow the use of specified third party user interfaces;

2i. modify, or allow or cause to be modified, any files that are a part of the Software in any way not expressly authorized by Digital Extremes in writing in each instance;

Finally the third and probably the most obvious breach of IP is the unreleased War within scripts. It is obvious that posting someone else's script/ story is a breach of copyright, whether that book/text be in the public domain or not. Copyright infringement is using someone else's creative work without explicit permission it could be both texts and art and Void_glitch did both multiply times. Fair use only subjugates to a small amount of someone elses work. So if he only copied a quote or two or did a TLDR he would be fine. But he did not.

His actions potentially did immeasurable damage to Digital extremes ltd, forcing rewrites which lead to extended development time, overtime of the workers and the results of the final product being tarnished. This also happened with the Second dream, however Digital extremes turned a blind eye due to it being a success anyway. However with the War Within, the reception was not as great. This could be partially blamed by the Devs hyping it up and the trailers. But it could not be imperatively stated that the data mines did not cause any damages.

To be honest DE's legal team has been lean on Void_glitch. It is fairly certain that they have all the bullets in the chamber needed to ruin and his family and sue them for damages due to him being a minor, but instead wasted time and effort to only send a warning letter. Not knowing the law is no excuse to breaking it [ignorantia legis neminem excusat] in fact I believe this is stated directly in Canada's criminal code. Void_gltich has caused irreparable damage to Digital Extremes and its Parent through the datamines. I would summarise without detail as many as I can below.

Data Mining leading to showing potential vulnerability leading to hacks.

Data Mining to leading to script changes and potentially re-recordings.

Data Mining revealing to be released Baro/Prime images leading to lowered platinum sale income.

Data Mining releasing unfinished art/specs/abilities leading to damage to platinum sales due unfinished items being unsatisfactory to playerbase.

Data Mining causing the hype of quests/baro to be diminished leading to lowered new players, daily logins, platinum sale and exposure.

Sorry that this isn't all that well written as it is 5AM in the morning and I will make sure no errors in the law once I have some rest.

Forgot a TLDR. so here it is: Datamining things that falls under fair use is not wrong. But also posting images, scripts or unreleased stuff is a violation of copyright. 

@[DE]Rebecca @[DE]Danielle @[DE]Mumbles  Feel free to comment or even correct me if what I stated was incorrect. I will remove it or change if necessary. 

Edit: I have tried to put this on the reddit as well, however it is instantly removed / made invisible to new page without warning, reason or message by the mods. Really shows the potential biases in this incident 

Edit:2 I have made the same post on reddit however it was instantly removed as spam and accusation even though I made valid and factual arguments. So it seems like reddit and its mods are not as innocent and neutral as it seems. Evidence in showing why post was removed

 

 

Edited June 24, 2017 by sinisteran

[(PSN)abbacephas]

A voice of reason in a sea of madness.

Thank you for providing a thorough, well-reasoned and thoughtful counterpoint to everything that is going on.

[SicSlaver]

44 minutes ago, sinisteran said:

"Unpopular opinion digital-extremes did nothing wrong concerning the void_gltich incident"

Before I begin I would like to say I only have a degree in english law. So my comments may be incorrect in relation to the US and Canada legal systems.

Firstly Data Mining is part of fair use in the case of drop rates and stuff like that. In Authors Guild, Inc. v. Google, Inc the judges submitted that 'purposes of substantive research, including data mining and text mining in new areas' is part of fair use, so in relation to this Void_glitch did nothing wrong.

However and this is the interesting part. What Void_glitch did breached the parameters of fair use and going into infringement of copyright. The Art- Prime access, Prisma stuff, Primed streamline. Is the intellectual property of Digital extremes and in extension to Leyou the parent. And posting such images are a breach. DE has in their EULA that all images of/ in the game are subject to copyright to ensure their protection. Therefore posting these mined images beforehand is a breach of their copyright. This is explicitly stated in section 3B

b. All rights and title in and to the Software, the Game, the Service, the Site, your Account and all content included therein (including, without limitation, Accounts, computer code, titles, objects, artifacts, characters, character names, locations, location names, stories, storylines, dialogue, catch phrases, artwork, graphics, structural or landscape designs, animations, sounds, musical compositions and recordings, audio-visual works, character likenesses, and methods of operation) are owned by Digital Extremes or its licensors. The Software may contain materials licensed by third parties, and the licensors of those materials may enforce their rights in the event of any violation of this Agreement. The Software and the Game and all content therein are protected by Canada and the United States and other international intellectual property laws. Digital Extremes and its licensors reserve all rights in connection with the Software and the Game, including, without limitation, the exclusive right to create derivative works there from, and you agree that you will not create any work of authorship based on the Game except as expressly permitted by Digital Extremes. You acknowledge and agree that you have no interest, monetary or otherwise, in any feature or content contained in the Game. You further acknowledge and agree that you shall have no ownership or other property interest in your Account, and you acknowledge and agree that all rights in and to the Account are and shall forever be owned by and inure to the benefit of Digital Extremes.

Secondly. Reverse engineering of computer software is a breach of contract. The Umbra and the Primed streamline incident may not be a hack by Void_glitch but his datamine contributed to it happening. Therefore Void_glitche's actions may be a part of the chain of causation that lead to the hacks. Legal causation is expressed through 'foreseeability' and Void_gltiches actions of datamining could be taken into account into how Umbra was hacked into the game.

Void_glitch will not be liable if : A: Despite his datamine Umbra was going to be hacked anyway and/or B: Umbra/ streamline was hacked completely without relation to his data mining.

Legality aside Digital extremes has in their Jan 2013 EULA specifically in section 2B that 'reverse engineer, decompile, disassemble or otherwise derive source code or game data from the Software or reduce the Software to a human-readable form, except to the extent that such actions are expressly permitted by applicable law' and due to Void_glitche's contributions leading to the hacks he has not only broken section 2B but also 2H and 2I

2h. use any unauthorized third-party software that intercepts, “mines”, or otherwise collects information from, within or through the Software or Service, including without limitation, any software that reads areas of RAM used by the Software to store information about a character, in-game items or the Software environment; provided, however, that Digital Extremes may, in its sole discretion, allow the use of specified third party user interfaces;

2i. modify, or allow or cause to be modified, any files that are a part of the Software in any way not expressly authorized by Digital Extremes in writing in each instance;

Finally the third and probably the most obvious breach of IP is the unreleased War within scripts. It is obvious that posting someone else's script/ story is a breach of copyright, whether that book/text be in the public domain or not. Copyright infringement is using someone else's creative work without explicit permission it could be both texts and art and Void_glitch did both multiply times. Fair use only subjugates to a small amount of someone elses work. So if he only copied a quote or two or did a TLDR he would be fine. But he did not.

His actions potentially did immeasurable damage to Digital extremes ltd, forcing rewrites which lead to extended development time, overtime of the workers and the results of the final product being tarnished. This also happened with the Second dream, however Digital extremes turned a blind eye due to it being a success anyway. However with the War Within, the reception was not as great. This could be partially blamed by the Devs hyping it up and the trailers. But it could not be imperatively stated that the data mines did not cause any damages.

To be honest DE's legal team has been lean on Void_glitch. It is fairly certain that they have all the bullets in the chamber needed to ruin and his family and sue them for damages due to him being a minor, but instead wasted time and effort to only send a warning letter. Not knowing the law is no excuse to breaking it [ignorantia legis neminem excusat] in fact I believe this is stated directly in Canada's criminal code. Void_gltich has caused irreparable damage to Digital Extremes and its Parent through the datamines. I would summarise without detail as many as I can below.

Data Mining leading to showing potential vulnerability leading to hacks.

Data Mining to leading to script changes and potentially re-recordings.

Data Mining revealing to be released Baro/Prime images leading to lowered platinum sale income.

Data Mining releasing unfinished art/specs/abilities leading to damage to platinum sales due unfinished items being satisfactory to playerbase.

Data Mining causing the hype of quests/baro to be diminished leading to lowered new players, daily logins, platinum sale and exposure.

Sorry that this isn't all that well written as it is 5AM in the morning and I will make sure no errors in the law once I have some rest.

 

@[DE]Rebecca @[DE]Danielle @[DE]Mumbles  Feel free to comment or even correct me if what I stated was incorrect. I will remove it or change if necessary. 

Edit: I have tried to put this on the reddit as well, however it is instantly removed / made invisible to new page without warning, reason or message by the mods. Really shows the potential biases in this incident 

Edit:2 I have made the same post on reddit however it was instantly removed as spam and accusation even though I made valid and factual arguments. So it seems like reddit and its mods are not as innocent and neutral as it seems. Evidence in showing why post was removed

 

 

Thanks for the enlightening post, sinisteran. I'm not a redditor and hardly involve myself with social media, so I have no idea why your post was removed. Maybe the title of it was too extreme? And whether or not what DE has done is wrong or not is subjective in this case. Legally, they are entitled to and have the right to stop Void_Glitch's actions, but not everything is clear for me at the moment. Are the claims against Void_Glitch really justified; that his datamining lead to the hacks, leaks, and potential scamming?

However, I do know that the information the Warframe wikia provides are invaluable and can be used to confirm the authenticity of DE's statements. For me, it's not about whether or not DE is in the right to legally pull this off, but whether their actions are truly for the benefit and well-being of their customers/playerbase. I hope you understand what I'm getting at.

[(PSN)decogold]

39 minutes ago, sinisteran said:

However and this is the interesting part. What Void_glitch did breached the parameters of fair use and going into infringement of copyright. The Art- Prime access, Prisma stuff, Primed streamline. Is the intellectual property of Digital extremes and in extension to Leyou the parent. And posting such images are a breach. DE has in their EULA that all images of/ in the game are subject to copyright to ensure their protection. Therefore posting these mined images beforehand is a breach of their copyright. This is explicitly stated in section 3B

Note: This does not apply for US law. The DMCA for the USA overrides all EULA contracts which states that "not all parts of a patent are actually patented". In simpler terms, those singular images are not part of the patent which DE possess for Warframe - he has every right to post those images.

41 minutes ago, sinisteran said:

Secondly. Reverse engineering of computer software is a breach of contract. The Umbra and the Primed streamline incident may not be a hack by Void_glitch but his datamine contributed to it happening. Therefore Void_glitche's actions may be a part of the chain of causation that lead to the hacks. Legal causation is expressed through 'foreseeability' and Void_gltiches actions of datamining could be taken into account into how Umbra was hacked into the game.

This is the fall-of-line argument. If this was true, then we may aswell stop selling cars in the street as they have the capability to inflict damage on another human being - does this mean the company in question is responsible? Of course not. Void_glitch is not in the wrong for exposing these issues - he did not take advantage of the exploit only exposed it. He is not in the wrong, it is not his responsibility what other users do with this information. A good reference would be zero-day vulnerability exploiters - they expose and publicise vulnerabilities in software/a network to draw publicity. 

Do you want to know who is in the wrong? Digital Extremes themselves - it is their fault that these exploits were in the game, not void_glitch's fault. Having them publicised does not mean he is wrong either, one way or another those exploits were going to be found - DE themselves are at fault here for having these exploits in the game.

48 minutes ago, sinisteran said:

Legality aside Digital extremes has in their Jan 2013 EULA specifically in section 2B that 'reverse engineer, decompile, disassemble or otherwise derive source code or game data from the Software or reduce the Software to a human-readable form, except to the extent that such actions are expressly permitted by applicable law' and due to Void_glitche's contributions leading to the hacks he has not only broken section 2B but also 2H and 2I

Please be aware that US law overrides any sort of EULA contract between a user and a company, there's a reason laws exist in the first place.

50 minutes ago, sinisteran said:

His actions potentially did immeasurable damage to Digital extremes ltd, forcing rewrites which lead to extended development time, overtime of the workers and the results of the final product being tarnished. This also happened with the Second dream, however Digital extremes turned a blind eye due to it being a success anyway. However with the War Within, the reception was not as great. This could be partially blamed by the Devs hyping it up and the trailers. But it could not be imperatively stated that the data mines did not cause any damages.

That does not mean void_glitch is at fault either - QA testing should have been put in place to find these exploits in the first place, this "more development time" argument is a fallacy, it could have been prevented if it was discovered earlier, developers spend extra time fixing issues anyways, again it is not void_glitch's fault that these exploits exist so he is not liable for any "damage liabilities".

53 minutes ago, sinisteran said:

Data Mining leading to showing potential vulnerability leading to hacks.

Data Mining to leading to script changes and potentially re-recordings.

Data Mining revealing to be released Baro/Prime images leading to lowered platinum sale income.

Data Mining releasing unfinished art/specs/abilities leading to damage to platinum sales due unfinished items being unsatisfactory to playerbase.

Data Mining causing the hype of quests/baro to be diminished leading to lowered new players, daily logins, platinum sale and exposure.

This argument is entirely subjective - if the leaked audio/scripts/textures in question are good then it will build up hype amongst the playerbase who are eager to enjoy it for themselves, hence if it isn't so good any hype will be extinguished. Won't comment on the other sentences, simply subjective conclusions which can be different on a case by case basis.

[sinisteran]

Just now, SicSlaver said:

Thanks for the enlightening post, sinisteran. I'm not a redditor and hardly involve myself with social media, so I have no idea why your post was removed. Maybe the title of it was too extreme? And whether or not what DE has done is wrong or not is subjective in this case. Legally, they are entitled to and have the right to stop Void_Glitch's actions, but not everything is clear for me at the moment. Are the claims against Void_Glitch really justified; that his datamining lead to the hacks, leaks, and potential scamming?

However, I do know that the information the Warframe wikia provides are invaluable and can be used to confirm the authenticity of DE's statements. For me, it's not about whether or not DE is in the right to legally pull this off, but whether their actions are truly for the benefit and well-being of their customers/playerbase. I hope you understand what I'm getting at.

Yes I agree 100 percent.

But The title is true. They didn't do anything wrong. What did they do wrong? Its their game in the end of the day. I admit before the mines the drop rates were abysmal but that was 2013 when the game was first out and this was their first rodeo. 

DE needs to learn to make things transparent enough so we arent forced to mine things. The web pages is a good start. Also data mining isnt illegal if you are under fair use they aren't banning people from doing that. Void glitch posted everything including art and scripts. That was the main issue.

DE also needs to stop being pushed around while the community directors just tanks everything. Meg and Reb don't have law degrees. Dont expect what they say to be crafted in perfection. Picking their words apart for our advantage. If reb didn't simplify what the legal team said to the best of her ability and just posted whatever the lawyers said about 1 percent of the community would get it.

 

[(PSN)VoiD_Glitch]

5 minutes ago, sinisteran said:

Yes I agree 100 percent.

But The title is true. They didn't do anything wrong. What did they do wrong? Its their game in the end of the day. I admit before the mines the drop rates were abysmal but that was 2013 when the game was first out and this was their first rodeo. 

DE needs to learn to make things transparent enough so we arent forced to mine things. The web pages is a good start. Also data mining isnt illegal if you are under fair use they aren't banning people from doing that. Void glitch posted everything including art and scripts. That was the main issue.

DE also needs to stop being pushed around while the community directors just tanks everything. Meg and Reb don't have law degrees. Dont expect what they say to be crafted in perfection. Picking their words apart for our advantage. If reb didn't simplify what the legal team said to the best of her ability and just posted whatever the lawyers said about 1 percent of the community would get it.

 

Actually, the main issue was in regard to the Excalibur Prime and Primed Streamline scandals - two events that I was not involved in - yet I am being targeted for. I would recommend reading @(PS4)decogold's comment.

[sinisteran]

16 minutes ago, (PS4)decogold said:

Note: This does not apply for US law. The DMCA for the USA overrides all EULA contracts which states that "not all parts of a patent are actually patented". In simpler terms, those singular images are not part of the patent which DE possess for Warframe - he has every right to post those images.

This is the fall-of-line argument. If this was true, then we may aswell stop selling cars in the street as they have the capability to inflict damage on another human being - does this mean the company in question is responsible? Of course not. Void_glitch is not in the wrong for exposing these issues - he did not take advantage of the exploit only exposed it. He is not in the wrong, it is not his responsibility what other users do with this information. A good reference would be zero-day vulnerability exploiters - they expose and publicise vulnerabilities in software/a network to draw publicity. 

Do you want to know who is in the wrong? Digital Extremes themselves - it is their fault that these exploits were in the game, not void_glitch's fault. Having them publicised does not mean he is wrong either, one way or another those exploits were going to be found - DE themselves are at fault here for having these exploits in the game.

Please be aware that US law overrides any sort of EULA contract between a user and a company, there's a reason laws exist in the first place.

That does not mean void_glitch is at fault either - QA testing should have been put in place to find these exploits in the first place, this "more development time" argument is a fallacy, it could have been prevented if it was discovered earlier, developers spend extra time fixing issues anyways, again it is not void_glitch's fault that these exploits exist so he is not liable for any "damage liabilities".

This argument is entirely subjective - if the leaked audio/scripts/textures in question are good then it will build up hype amongst the playerbase who are eager to enjoy it for themselves, hence if it isn't so good any hype will be extinguished. Won't comment on the other sentences, simply subjective conclusions which can be different on a case by case basis.

1.Yes EULA is not the literal law of the land. But somethings dont have to be in the EULA to be copyrighted. Scripts and art are under copyright. if you drew a picture right now and I post it on the internet. I am infringing your rights.

2. He did not do it personally. But if what he did was still within the chain of causation, he is also (not solely) responsible. Also your example is not a good one. Lets take Tesla. Their code was mined leading to a 3rd party to hack it and kill people with it. It is not Tesla's legal liability. It is impossible to make something without fault, especially programs, 

3. It is physically impossible to make code or anything infact that could NOT be exploited. A kitchen knife is made to cut meat. Someone uses it to kill. whose fault is it? 

4. If QA testing to could rid all bugs of a game or software then they must be godly. So the wanncry thing that happened recently? microsoft's fault? or the hackers

5. Exactly subjective! But due to it not being wanted to be seen as it was not ready it could cause potential damages

Edited June 23, 2017 by sinisteran

[sinisteran]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)VoiD_Glitch said:

Actually, the main issue was in regard to the Excalibur Prime and Primed Streamline scandals - two events that I was not involved in - yet I am being targeted for. I would recommend reading @(PS4)decogold's comment.

Like I stated before you did not directly cause the exploits to happen. But can you say with 100 percent confidence and prove that your mines had no relation to umbra and primed streamline in its entirety. Not even a small mention or anything. 

[yingji]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)decogold said:

A good reference would be zero-day vulnerability exploiters - they expose and publicise vulnerabilities in software/a network to draw publicity. 

I like some parts of your post, but talking about zero day vulnerabilities is a terrible, terrible, terrible example.

If you find and publicly expose a vulnerability you have a very high chance of going to prison.

That is why it makes more sense to sell a vulnerability via murky channels, which is why corporations and governments spend hundreds of millions of dollars every year buying vulnerabilities from 'criminals' also known as professional security researchers.

Just ask weev all about it. https://www.wired.com/2013/03/att-hacker-gets-3-years/

Google for yourself 'security researcher jail'. Please educate yourself. Jailing people who find vulnerabilities is widespread.

And when companies punish benign computer people the punished activities go underground and can/do then go deeply wrong for those companies.

I fear for DE in this regard.

[Cubbage]

2 minutes ago, sinisteran said:

Like I stated before you did not directly cause the exploits to happen. But can you say with 100 percent confidence and prove that your mines had no relation to umbra and primed streamline in its entirety. Not even a small mention or anything. 

He only heard about this incident after the fact, what are you even trying to argue here? Because it sounds like you're saying "you might not be directly at fault, but you're still at fault."

Edited June 24, 2017 by Cubbage
further explanation

[sinisteran]

3 minutes ago, Cubbage said:

He only heard about this incident after the fact, what are you even trying to argue here?

He heard that it happened after the fact is not a valid defence. HE DID NOT HACK UMBRA OF PRIMED STREAMLINED PERSONALLY- WE KNOW!

But his datamine prior to the incident allowed others to exploit the game, and hack it. So yes he is technically responsible.

Edited June 24, 2017 by sinisteran

[yingji]

1 minute ago, sinisteran said:

But his datamine prior to the incident allowed others to exploit the game, and hack it. 

Prove it.

I mean, you state it like it's a fact. So of course you can prove it immediately.

Go ahead.

We are watching.

[(PSN)decogold]

5 minutes ago, sinisteran said:

1.Yes EULA is not the literal law of the land. But somethings dont have to be in the EULA to be copyrighted. Scripts and art are under copyright. if you drew a picture right now and I post it on the internet. I am infringing your rights.

This still does not change the fact that the images are not under patent. Example of the "law" is in reference to the right to privacy, doesn't relate to your original point. (Unless your referring to a user's own copyright, which differs from a company)

6 minutes ago, sinisteran said:

2. He did not do it personally. But if what he did was still within the chain of causation he is also (not solely) responsible. Also your example is not a good one. Lets take Tesla. Their code was mined leading to a 3rd party to hack it and kill people with it. It is not Tesla's legal liability. It is impossible to make something without fault, especially programs, 

This still does not change the fact that he is not responsible.If your perception on this were true then you can say goodbye to basically every single human commodity in existence - including the internet. It is the responsibility of the individual who exploited the code - now things would be different if void_glitch did exploit the code, he did not therefore he is not liable for what happens once he exposes the vulnerability. Your example is proving my point - it is not void_glitch's responsibility.

9 minutes ago, sinisteran said:

3. It is physically impossible to make code or anything infact that could be exploited. A kitchen knife is made to cut meat. Someone uses it to kill. whose fault is it?

Proving my point yet again, it is the responsibility of the bearer, not the creator. It is the murderer's fault, not the creator's.

10 minutes ago, sinisteran said:

4. If QA testing to could rid all bugs of a game or software then they must be godly. So the wanncry thing that happened recently? microsoft's fault? or the hackers

Actually no, you are comparing a complex labyrinth of an operating system which has many, many layers of features and different binary components to a game - entirely 2 different environments - not comparable.

11 minutes ago, sinisteran said:

. Exactly subjective! But due to it not being wanted to be seen as it was not ready it could cause potential damages

But.. you are indirectly stating that it could cause damages either way, so therefore you have effectively neutralised your first argument. (Being he is solely liable, which isn't true for damages).

[FAZZWARFRAME]

2 minutes ago, sinisteran said:

He heard that it happened after the fact is not a valid defence. HE DID NOT HACK UMBRA OF PRIMED STREAMLINED PERSONALLY- WE KNOW!

But his datamine prior to the incident allowed others to exploit the game, and hack it. So yes he is technically responsible.

I don't think a gun manufacturer can be sued for people using their guns to kill...

[Cubbage]

1 minute ago, sinisteran said:

He heard that it happened after the fact is not a valid defence. HE DID NOT HACK UMBRA OF PRIMED STREAMLINED PERSONALLY- WE KNOW!

But his datamine prior to the incident allowed others to exploit the game, and hack it. So yes he is technically responsible.

You do realize there are more dataminers than just him right? Saying that it's still his fault is not a valid accusation.

[(PSN)VoiD_Glitch]

3 minutes ago, sinisteran said:

Like I stated before you did not directly cause the exploits to happen. But can you say with 100 percent confidence and prove that your mines had no relation to umbra and primed streamline in its entirety. Not even a small mention or anything. 

Still, it isn't my fault that information I published was used in a malicious manner. Just like when you said:

"2. He did not do it personally. But if what he did was still within the chain of causation he is also (not solely) responsible. Also your example is not a good one. Lets take Tesla. Their code was mined leading to a 3rd party to hack it and kill people with it. It is not Tesla's legal liability. It is impossible to make something without fault, especially programs," 

Just like it isn't Tesla's legal liability, it isn't my liability if people misuse the information I provide. I only provided the information for informational purposes, something I have said many times in the past.

"He heard that it happened after the fact is not a valid defence. HE DID NOT HACK UMBRA OF PRIMED STREAMLINED PERSONALLY- WE KNOW!

But his datamine prior to the incident allowed others to exploit the game, and hack it. So yes he is technically responsible."

My datamines did not allow anyone to exploit the game. They did not provide source code or  methods into manipulating Digital Extremes software or functionality in their game. So no, my datamines did not allow anyone to exploit the game and hack it. I am not responsible for this...

[sinisteran]

Just now, yingji said:

Prove it.

I mean, you state it like it's a fact. So of course you can prove it immediately.

Go ahead.

We are watching.

In the original release in reddit prior to the dev workshop that Rebecca had stated it and submitted they have proof. But I doubt I can just ask for it. You could try and ask her to see if DE would release such confidential information to you.

[yingji]

Just now, sinisteran said:

In the original release in reddit prior to the dev workshop that Rebecca had stated it and submitted they have proof. But I doubt I can just ask for it. You could try and ask her to see if DE would release such confidential information to you.

If you want to prove something then don't ask me to do the work for you.

[(PSN)decogold]

8 minutes ago, yingji said:

I like some parts of your post, but talking about zero day vulnerabilities is a terrible, terrible, terrible example.

If you find and publicly expose a vulnerability you have a very high chance of going to prison.

That is why it makes more sense to sell a vulnerability via murky channels, which is why corporations and governments spend hundreds of millions of dollars every year buying vulnerabilities from 'criminals' also known as professional security researchers.

Just ask weev all about it. https://www.wired.com/2013/03/att-hacker-gets-3-years/

Google for yourself 'security researcher jail'. Please educate yourself. Jailing people who find vulnerabilities is widespread.

And when companies punish benign computer people the punished activities go underground and can/do then go deeply wrong for those companies.

I fear for DE in this regard.

This used to be the case years ago... before companies found the value of having issues exposed is much more cost-effective and for the exploiter to receive a form of payment than it is for the amount of damages it would cost to repair any malicious damage done by a user.

(Forgot to mention, zero-day vulnerabilities are never actually publicised until 30 days after informing the company about the exploit), hence pre-emptive warning.

[sinisteran]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)decogold said:

This still does not change the fact that the images are not under patent. Example of the "law" is in reference to the right to privacy, doesn't relate to your original point. (Unless your referring to a user's own copyright, which differs from a company)

This still does not change the fact that he is not responsible.If your perception on this were true then you can say goodbye to basically every single human commodity in existence - including the internet. It is the responsibility of the individual who exploited the code - now things would be different if void_glitch did exploit the code, he did not therefore he is not liable for what happens once he exposes the vulnerability. Your example is proving my point - it is not void_glitch's responsibility.

Proving my point yet again, it is the responsibility of the bearer, not the creator. It is the murderer's fault, not the creator's.

Actually no, you are comparing a complex labyrinth of an operating system which has many, many layers of features and different binary components to a game - entirely 2 different environments - not comparable.

But.. you are indirectly stating that it could cause damages either way, so therefore you have effectively neutralised your first argument. (Being he is solely liable, which isn't true for damages).

Actually art can be copyrighted. Are you saying that Oberon prime's design is not theirs?

Again. Causation. Understand it first.

My point was to disregard your car claim. Not directly correlated to this case.

Name 1 game or software with 0 bugs ever.

The 3rd part I could be clearer actually I agree. He could have caused both in damages and income to DE. Therefore my point still stands. if you want I will name the good he has done through data mining too.

Edited June 24, 2017 by sinisteran

[yingji]

1 minute ago, (PS4)decogold said:

This used to be the case years ago... before companies found the value of having issues exposed is much more cost-effective and for the exploiter to receive a form of payment than it is for the amount of damages it would cost to repair any malicious damage done by a user.

(Forgot to mention, zero-day vulnerabilities are never actually publicised until 30 days after informing the company about the exploit), hence pre-emptive warning.

A few current Bug Bounty programs don't tell a fraction of the whole story. If you want to believe in the world you describe then that's your choice

[sinisteran]

1 minute ago, yingji said:

A few current Bug Bounty programs don't tell a fraction of the whole story. If you want to believe in the world you describe then that's your choice

By typing bug report into google and limiting it to the last 24 hrs theres 176,000 entries. I will take half way. That doesn't seem like a few programs. 

[sinisteran]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)decogold said:

This used to be the case years ago... before companies found the value of having issues exposed is much more cost-effective and for the exploiter to receive a form of payment than it is for the amount of damages it would cost to repair any malicious damage done by a user.

(Forgot to mention, zero-day vulnerabilities are never actually publicised until 30 days after informing the company about the exploit), hence pre-emptive warning.

Actually some cases fought in court right now are using precedent from the 1800's so 2003 isn't that far back in relation to law. and precedent don't get replaced very often 

Edited June 24, 2017 by sinisteran

[(PSN)decogold]

1 minute ago, sinisteran said:

Actually art can be copyrighted. Are you saying that Oberon prime's design is not theirs?

Again. Causation. Understand it first.

My point was to disregard your car claim. Not directly correlated to this case.

Name 1 game with 0 bugs ever.

No, i'm saying that the images which were leaked were not patented under WF's patent. Making assumptions on a case such as Oberon is just low.. like come on - modelling and textures differs far more than images.

Not going to respond to second point, you clealy fail to see the flaw here.

"Name 2 game every with 0 bugs ever" - again, drawing the "no game has 0 bugs" argument... oh, so because there was a bug which DE created it is somehow void_glitch's fault... when he did not create those issues.... oh wait it isn't.

Cherry-picking points doesn't help your overall consensus.

4 minutes ago, yingji said:

A few current Bug Bounty programs don't tell a fraction of the whole story. If you want to believe in the world you describe then that's your choice

Well yes because if they decided to imprison me for following a bug-bounty program i would happily sue them for breaking the law.