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[DE]Rebecca

Drop Rates, Datamines, and Digital Extremes (DDD).

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1. more openness about drops and mechanics is always good and should have been in the game already. DE should really be thankful of the community maintaining the wiki and even dataminers for sharing details like drop rates, exalted weapons mechanics, melee stats like range, etc

2. How long is it going to take before lawyers realize that the simple act of trying to repress something they don't like online is likely to make it so that something that most people would never, ever see (like a photo of a urinal in some random beach resort) is now seen by many more people? Let's call it the Streisand Effect.

— Mike Masnick
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1 hour ago, Chewarette said:

People are so demanding numbers those day, without realizing... It doesn't bring anything to the game.

Wow, now you'll know the "Rare drop" is a "9.1% chance drop". What will you do with that information ? Literally nothing.

I really hope dataminers will be somehow banned from the game, punished via lawsuits or whatever. Those guys are making money on stuff that ruins the game for everyone that wish to play the game normally.

I don't know about the full context but I'm not sure I wanted to hear about "Primed Streamline". Another discovery wasted, after Umbra and everything.

I'm usually not that kind of guy, but I really hope that something bad happens to leakers and dataminers (and in an overall, hackers) in real life. Egocentric pricks.

If this wasn´t sarcasm i don´t know if youre serious. Sure the umbra guys were complete xholes for doing such stuff and should be treated like that, primed streamline is old as datamining itself and it was stated it won´t come to the game for us. Even DE added troll stuff for dataminers. I wouldn´t wish them bad things irl, thats not how we should treat each other.  Nobody, really nobody pushed you to read [DATAMINED]xxxxxxx stuff on reddit, and on forums it was taken down in matter of few minutes. 

I´m glad for those numbers. Yes i do. Not only it "brings something" to the game in terms : hey this relic has higher % to be aquired there instead of here,  which saves you time, and you can play more to get more of the said relic, it showed us the actual stats on not ingame information for example Exalted weapon.  This stuff you labelled as "doesn´t bring anything to the game" really found errors DE did in the past - not only chesa eggs, but most recent Octavia part from ODS listed in wrong rotation as reward- (because people were curious about the % and it was listed in other rotation).

See? It is not only about new primes, event weapons, new event mods, It is a double edged sword, but you had the option to choose which info you want to find out.

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As long as this website has data extracted directly from the game and not manually written by someone at the office...Human mistakes are possible, let's not forget the Chesa fiasco.

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Cease and desist orders generally have to be a blanket thing so they don't leave any openings for a state of "precedence". Essentially meaning you have to give everyone that is even closely related to the situation the C&D.  So DE may have had little legal choice in who got sent one and their actual intent in the way they are using DE's data.  

The bad side of this is while we know Data-mining and Hacking are different, laws rarely have that kind of distinction. While you also have various regional laws that differ as how this kind of thing is able to be handled.  Many intellectual rights are often enforce it or lose any rights to do so, all in a blanket state.

So all in all while DE could turn a blind eye to data-mining as soon as hacking was on the table then they can simply no longer turn a blind eye to any data viewing/manipulation.

 

As to the drop rates listing, it would be great to have that in game rather than out of game, even with an option for in-game generalities or numbers.

Though this could be a great opportunity for DE to re-look at the drop tables and changed them to be more inline with upgrading mods via endo than duplicates, as they have not been changed since that aspect was added.  Meaning mods would drop where players would be expected to actually be finding them (having mods like vitality dropping in Pluto is rather superfluous and should have been found long before meaning its just effectively endo at that point.)

At the end of the day if DE wants to hide drop rates, they can add ciphers to the numbers that would be found by the data-miners anyway.

Edited by Loswaith
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@[DE]Rebecca if effort is going to be made to make the information easily accessible via some sort of website, please can you open up a simple public API to pull the drop tables/item information?

A similar thing would be appreciated for some of the content.warframe.com/dynamic/* articles such as http://content.warframe.com/dynamic/trialStats.php appear to render exclusively as HTML content no matter whether or not you explicit define an accepted response. 

Having something like http://content.warframe.com/dynamic/trialStats.json would even be useful.

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To continue on something I said earlier, with the release of this information, or at least the plans of DE to release this information to the public, that means Void_Glitch would be capable of releasing this information himself, now that it's public domain or at least has plans for release to public domain, as we still need a means of "checking" DE's work, as...well, let's be honest, DE releases patch notes but not everything makes it into the patch notes, some things are in the patch notes that don't actually work(Law of Retribution and G3 not spawning...), so we, the public, need a way of verifying DE's word, to keep them honest, especially when they're coming out and saying "The drop percent of X is Y".
 

So @[DE]Rebecca considering you are releasing this information, specifically the drop tables information, can people freely mine and double check the drop rates that this website puts up?

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Do the drop table website thingy before melee rivens release, not some months after their prices start to die down.

Thanks.

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13 hours ago, Archwizard said:

If you look at a little game like, oh, World of Warcraft, they maintain a genial relationship with dataminers. Websites like Wowhead and MMO-Champion frequently datamine and discuss information on new releases early on during test phases, and base their business models on disseminating information on stats, locations and drop rates to players. Not only does this hype upcoming content, but it adds to the feedback process - people can see values that may be too strong or weak, and this allows for discussion of adjustments before game-breaking changes are added to the live game. It also allows players to start crafting builds and strategy guides before they get their hands on new content.

(Can't even argue that WoW is a bigger numbers game than Warframe, since we're talking about drop rates and ability/alt-fire stats here.)

And yes, frequently they even datamine things like dialogue and minor spoilers. People still play the content for themselves, and just as frequently, Blizzard just loads in placeholders on massive spoilers until their scripts are finished.

I added a little bit extra to my post on the front page, because I feel this needs to be said.

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I'm not ashamed to show a little of my naked desktop if it means backing up an honest community member's claims. Posts are definitely being deleted, and I think it's completely unnecessary.. You are attempting to smooth things over now at great cost to your ability to manage them later. Please reconsider this.

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 Personally, I side with Dataminers. I do not disregard DE's actions completely, but as difficult as this is, it is difficult to know how exactly to handle such a situation. What I would have liked? Finding and punishing the hacker(s), not threatening people with legal action.

 

Of course we're not entitled to numbers and exact percentages. But it is nice to see that work is being done on that. But it isn't just about drop rates and percentages.

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8 hours ago, (PS4)VoiD_Glitch said:

My only goal was to upload any information that I could retrieve in a readable and useful format. It was an effort to assist the community. That was my highest priority. All Digital Extremes had to do was ask me to take something down (it seems like they specifically wanted Languages.bin down), prior to a legal letter, and it could have been as simple as that. I do not appreciate being the involved in a legal matter that should not even involve me in the first place.

Take some comfort from the levels of support you see primarily on reddit and if it was me I would lawyer up immediately.

Also I would stop posting until I had seen a lawyer because I would personally not trust a company that sends seemingly dubious threats to minors.

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6 hours ago, (PS4)VoiD_Glitch said:

My only goal was to upload any information that I could retrieve in a readable and useful format. It was an effort to assist the community. That was my highest priority. All Digital Extremes had to do was ask me to take something down (it seems like they specifically wanted Languages.bin down), prior to a legal letter, and it could have been as simple as that. I do not appreciate being the involved in a legal matter that should not even involve me in the first place.

Considering the, honestly, massive support you are getting over this, even if you do face legal matters, (how ever it is immensely unlikely you will) that you would be given the massive support of the community to back you as well as funds for legal matters. But, again, highly unlikely, especially with DE saying "Hey, we are planning on releasing this information anyway!" So if you simply release the information that they plan on releasing you should very much be in the clear, we just need confirmation from DE and/or the legal team, preferably from DE themselves.

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To be hones I am really really disappointed with how you guys at DE handled the situation...

Instead of trying to talk to them and asking him not to publish spoilers you go straight to lawyers and send a cease&desists for something that , to my limited knowledge, is not illegal...

The way you handled all of this killed all my excitement for the next update and all things Tennocon and made me regret buying Platinum earlier this week.

I basically lost all trust and goodwill towards your company so yeah... Good Luck earning that back.

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11 minutes ago, Kraagesh said:

Instead of trying to talk to Void_Glitch and asking him not to publish spoilers you go straight to lawyers and send a cease&desists for something that , to my limited knowledge, is not illegal...

It is rather unlikely glitch was the only one sent one of these.

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i must say the statements reads really bad. it is presented like you/DE did something amazing new that we the players must be eternaly grateful to get or be part off. you are forced to do this step and now all problems are solved and all is fine. i'm sure the intention behind all that is a good one and that is not intended, but it sheds a really dark light...

-

the free to play model is/has always been the decision between time and money (or time and premium currency). this is nothing new. you did not invent it, revolutionize it, did something new or special. you do the balance well, thats why players stay. why is this presented like the next best thing since the invention of the wheel? the same goes for colored droptables to indicate rarety?

another thing is sorties are in the game for a while, the colors came into them after how long? relic rarity came into the game after how much time? i'm sorry to say this, but these are basic quality of life things for drops. other games have items rarity by colors for example. these things ship on release in those games. we get them after month of waiting and asking for it. (with no response to the request like "we are working on these things". so we dont even know if these things come to the game at all.) now you want the players to pad you on the back that these are actually ingame?

then comes the reddit datamine thing... you play it like taking a stance on these issues and telling a person to stop this would magiclly solve all these issues. it will not. people that did those things to abuse the gamesystem will probably still do so. they are mostlikely able to look into your gamefiles themselfs and find the stuff they need to do their shady buisness. the other thing is by you taking a stance to make this basiclly a "no go", it will probably attact more people of questionable moral compass. so from that angle it hardly seems like the good reaction on your side. the other thing is if systems/security is not up to date and there are leaks that should be fixed, would these not be used by these hackers anyway and would not be the first and foremost goal to fix those anyway. so i really do not see how your stance on datamine helps in that regard.

on the person of void glitch. i dont know what he did or didnt do. he seemed to publish your files for each update over years. so he seems like a fan of your game. if he would have any intention to hurt your company, why would he continue to due so over such a long time. makes no sense to me. but either way, why did/do you not hire the guy? invite him to tennocon. wine and dine him so to speak. he knew what he was doing so he is obviously skilled. he could still offer his dropchances tables. give him a plattform. he just would get paid for it. you could potentially mange some information you do not want players to get early. and at last it would be such good positive publicity for your company. why is the first solution always legal. imagine the good press headlines you could have gotten out of this. "gaming company hires dataminer to solve leaking issues". and can not think of any gaming company that did such thing. it would have been one of the best things that could even happen to you/DE. he could have been become your best employee. overall the couse of action seems very strange and missguided by fear and anger from an outside perspective.

then to the spoiler things. i do not get why this is such an issue. people just do not need to click on the forumtopic or video that are titled in that way or speculating on the next thing. if they do it is their problem - not yours. it really seems to be a big deal to you guys at DE more so then the playerbase itself. i do not understand why and yes you want to surprise us, but gues what players will measure you on the system and the gameplay aspect way more. since these stay in the game, these we use dialy/weekly. the surprise we have once. if the new things you implement are well done/expertly done/perfectly done. gues what DE no one cares if it was leaked early. if we knew before hand it is a stick and a stone, we dont care if you show us after that we can make fire with these. if you out do yourself on a gamemechanic or well designed quest or weapon or frame we will be way more surprised and happy then any spoiler that says if or if not we get umbra soon or in five years. what is the big deal with these?

the other point as far as i understand the datamine spoiler thing you yourself put the files content in the game on our pc in the files in the first place. so why in the world would you blame anyone else for this? yes you want to reduce download on future updates, which admiditly is a good thing, but if the leaks/spoiler bother you guys so much or you think it is such a bug issue, then simply do not put stuff in early. let us download the big files. problem solved. simply as that. the reason this issue occurs or even can occur in the first place is on your end. so why why would you shift the blame for that. i simply do not understand this issue.

the other thing about the statement is why is this industry standard pushed so much? since when do you guys orient yourself on that. if we your players would hold yourself to that we would have all left. basic QoL changes take forever. a lot of systems are borken forever. basic information is missing in the game. explanations are missing. the new player experience is bad and things done there are a drop in the desert. so why why would you guys bring that up. i do not get it. another thing with that is, people like you/DE because you do not handle/do things like other games. your game is special in a way that: you do a dev stream every 14 days. you do other streams like primetime, xbox, ps4. you do great community work. this is not and by no means an industry practice. people like warframe because it is doing things different.

into that ties that warframe is a grindbased game with lots rng layers adding to that grind. meaning you grind and have rng on top of that. did you get the relic you want. did your lua room even spawn. did stalker spawn. did you get 3 or 30 void traces. the game consitst basiclly only of grind and rng. if you stick by it for a while. so it is different from other games in that regard. players do not want to know the chances droprates of things so bad, if there is other stuff to do and if there is not multiple rng involved. in warframe it is and therefore there is a wish/desire to know those things.

to that comes over they years you tolerated the datamining and the publishing of those dropchances. so you yourself as a company cultivated the behaviour, with your stance or non stance on that issue, how you handle letting players know dropchanes. you decided to let them know. this became a standard and common practice for your game. players get used to this and on the other end expect this practice in the future. so to look for an example where this is " strongly or exhaustively exhibited elsewhere in the industry" look no further then the last few years of your game development. you set your trackrecord and standard yourself. can you change it yes for sure, but i hope you do not since the special kind of game warframe is with grind and rng. it needs thid transperency to let players know "hey you just having bad luck. we treat you equal to anyone else". it s big appeal of the game wether you realize that or not. since that in the end is what makes warframe special in a big part. and if you change it do not be surprised if players are unhappy. you made the bed in the first place ;)

the last thing is the proposed website thing. overall i'm not sure how i feel about this one. i can understand that this solves some issues. but the dropchances and stats are only a small part of the datamining so it will only solve these issues. the other thing is that even if you did not like what void glitch did, he was an independent party basiclly checking up on you. and i mean that in the best way. if a dropchance was messed up that would come out. no one could say to him "hey you just working for DE we dont believe your info etc". in a way i think this was a good thing, since you got a honest "critic" to held you accountible in some way. the community somewhat was on board with that. most knew datamining is not commonly tolerated in most games. this is a powerful thing to have and ally without knowing to have him. a person outside of your game, the gives you repsect in the way the players that find his content will be surprised that you/DE tolerate it and applaude you for your transparency. players give you respect for this because you are okay with that not because you offer them the information up.

having the same or part of a content on an DE website kinda negates all of these points. even if we know and can be sure it is automated to fish the values out of the game files. it is still your site. you will have to deal with people accusing you of polishing the numbers. so i feel the trust is not there in the first place. to that comes the whole issue about the dataming overall so i'm not sure if that the right direction to take. you will lose a lot of player over the debatte itself, like you already doing now. so even if the site is totaly perfect it will not serve the same purpose. it will not give you transparency and credit. it might even work out worsen then not having any site at all...

in the end it is your game. you make the decisions i do not ;) as a player i would have loved to see another couse of action. if you do not like what void gltich is doing. talk to him, offer him a platform let him make a site to offer his content. sponsor him, hire him, support him. if you do not like some files he posts. ask him to leave them completly out or maybe before another update you want to get stuff early in, ask him to let these out for the updates in question. talk to him. there are other solutions, ask yourself have you really tried these all the way through? making things illegal has never solved issues in the past, so why would it now? you can still go back on your decision DE. you can still change couse here. i really hope you do, since it seems like issues you coused or hold at higher priority then anyone else and then turn around and blame someone else for the things you did.

in the end a great game keep your other work going strong. still love the game, still playing ;)

thx for reading.

fight on tenno.

PS: in the time i wrote this a few posts of a user named Psychus got deleted. please do not let this be a pratice. as far as i saw he was just complaining. not offensive/ no swearwords  etc. so why delete posts. people will be upset about this for sure and they will discuss it and write about it. you have a forum and this seems like the palce such things should belong in theory. what did you expect? censoring is not the way to go. i hope i do not get banned deleted for my post here. that one has to ask/add that one is already questionable...

Edited by sulusdacor
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13 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

What we are asking for may be perfectly reasonable but it is hardly an industry standard. Only a handful of games give you full drop table chances and none are big names. People act like they are entitled to this, but while it would be great to have, it would actually make it an exception among online games.

I'm glad that I'm not the only person who thinks this way.

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I hate your company's action here. 

Coming from a founder, with over 3k hours in game, MR 23 and hundreds of euros in the game. Hate. And you might remember me, I'm not a hater, I will be critical, but pragmatic, often defending the more casual and newer players as best I can.

 

But the way this company is handling the situation with Void_Glitch, ignoring all the bug fixes that we all only got because they got exposed through datamining, even to the DE dev/test team (and promptly, finally, fixed by them too), is showing a different company and attitude than four, three, or even one year ago. I don't like to see it and I certainly hate losing the actual data. 

I want proper, guaranteed numbers. Not some BS colour (that I can't even tell apart by being quite colour impaired) scheme, not some 'we feel the grind is in a good place when it comes to the RNG / Dropchances', no, cold, hard verifiable numbers.

That's what the datamining means for me and that's what a responsible dataminer did for you.

Saying 'the industry doesn't do this, we're gonna be special/on the frontier with this' is a non-argument, since datamining, as it is accepted by much of the industry (ie not actively pursued since it is not illegal {bar certain countries/industries} nor hurting the involved companies {bar those cases where it was and the culprits were rightly pursued}) and provides all the data, objectively, verfiied by a third party data miner.

And it's not even a matter of trust, as DE has seen on several occasions themselves, when it comes to the resulting code being flawed in a way that only comes out through examining the expected data and results from the designer and developers at DE, the results us players are experiencing and the objective data mined data and spotting the faults, either in our player expectations, or, the resulting code/data in the actual releases.

 

I would love to see DE, finally, publish the actual drop table numbers, up to date for every patch, every event, every day. But I can only gain trust in them when it's objectively verified by a trusted third party, like someone who has been providing the cold hard data mined truth for years now.

:( 

 

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The issue is very understandable and fully justified, so I must say I can agree with what is done at the moment.

I myself personally, disagree with some of the datamining activities. Spoilers, leaks were never my thing. Some of them actually gave me hope, especially when I was farming for certain things, which I was comforted a bit that the drop chance is rather okay, and I was just being unlucky.

However, I am pretty sure Void has not much to do with the issue, because as far as I know he only reveals the drop rate and he didn't do the Umbra thing and the Primed Streamline thing (unless there's a proof that I missed).

I personally think he may (just maybe) be a victim of the situation. He is a known data miner. However the one that does the thing (the issue) is an anonymous.

To be honest, I think it is only fair for you guys to not to accuse him of such actions just because he is the only known dataminer. Well, unless there's proof where he is involved directly in those issues, please consider about his condition.

Overall, I respect everything (if not all, I'll say a lot most of them) you guys have decided and I accept them. The alternate initiative you guys want to provide is very appreciated, and I personally say nice job on that. I wish for the good deeds and wise decisions will be always be made (not that you guys didn't always do this, please don't get misled by my limited words of saying good/great things). I wish for a good relationship between the developers, and the players community.

Have a nice day to all of the readers of this long writing of mine.

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15 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

This is about reverse engineering and vectors being opened with the intent to scam trade, forge items, create 3rd party servers and generally leak unfinished content and game internals that can be just as misleading as undisclosed information. Seeing a trade for Primed Streamline take place for thousands of Platinum meant people were about to get caught in the crossfire of tolerated data-mining and malicious use of datamined information.

I'm not sure if anyone has brought this up in the last seven pages, but:

Why do you put stuff like that, which you don't want to see in the hands of players (yet), in the public build in the first place? Yeah, sure, it makes update size smaller when the heavily hyped cinematic quest finally ships - but is it really worth it? If you want to keep things secret, don't put them in the effing client. You knew that all the game files were datamined, you knew there were people (not necessarily the dataminers themselves) who would use that information to spoil information about upcoming quests or worse. And yet you still put it out there for them to find. I'll probably get accused of victim-blaming for saying this, but in my eyes, you brought this on yourself, DE.

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@[DE]Rebecca

I can understand how frustrating it is to have a surprise spoiled. I know that you pre-load items onto the public build so that updates can be smaller overall (to accommodate for those who have a poor internet connection). Having people expose all of the work you do is like having a painting with a sheet over it, waiting for the big reveal, when someone comes in and yanks away the sheet.

That said, I feel that there must be some way to obfuscate/purposefully corrupt said pre-loaded data, so as to make it incompatible with the public client, and then fix that when DE releases the main update. While it would add a small amount more data to the main update, it would prevent this content from leaking, which is something that stopping public datamining won't do.

I am very glad that DE plans on taking up the responsibility of releasing data regarding released content, such as drop tables. The fact that DE is willing to do this themselves shows just how far DE has come as a company, considering what happened 11 updates ago.

15 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Where could we seek wisdom of other developers’ actions to demystify the RNG process and publish drops? The trick is that this behaviour is not strongly or exhaustively exhibited elsewhere in the industry (unless the law demands it in certain regions).

To be perfectly honest, I don't care a whole lot about the drop rates. I know that the community can talk amongst itself and see if DE is trying to pull another Update 9 and will then delve in and datamine, regardless of what DE says about it, because the ability always exists as long as DE continues to use clients-as-hosts methods. What I am more worried about is all of the hidden mechanics and stats of existing weapons that the community has relied upon datamining to provide.

For instance, how many pellets are fired by the Tigris Prime. Or any other shotgun? The only reason the community knows the answer to this question is through datamining. How about the explosion radius of a Glave when channel-thrown? Or the damage spread and fall-off range of the Redeemer's charged shot? Or the AoE radius of any launcher-type weapon? Or the exact mechanics of any melee weapon with a special effect (Lesion, Caustacyst, the Syndicate melee weapons, Zenistar, etc.) Or, perhaps most pressingly, the new Tenno Speargun's alt-fire mechanics. How large of an area does it cover? Does it affect enemies who walk into range, or only those who are in range when thrown? Haw large is the bullet attractor radius? Does it only affect the wielder's shots? Does it affect enemy fire? Before now, all of these questions would be answered on the wiki within days due to the effort put in by the dataminers to find this info and publish it.

Here, there is an overwhelming amount of evidence for releasing all of the data on weapons/abilities/enemies/etc. I cannot personally think of an MMO, of any kind, that I have played, that does not release this info either in-game, through an official wiki, or by giving it to a fan-run wiki. This kind of info is what makes build-making fun, as there is no guesswork as to how any given stat/mod/equip/enchant/whatever will have on the weapon. The only questions being asked are "How will this change affect my damage (or DPS)?" and "How would this change my playstyle?/Can I use this with my current playstyle?"

Releasing the damage values for exalted abilities are all well and good, but why not work on getting us the rest of the stats on weapons we already have a UI for?

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14 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

What you are saying "just don't put it in the files" actually doesn't make sense. They need to to prep for updates, and the files in languages are hard to hide, hence stuff constantly getting spoiled by dataminers. 

They could easily put assets and info for cinematics in the game files prematurely but keep the localization files out until the very end. Those are only text files and go by the single-digit kilobytes. You could put in an entire quest from start to end - when all you have are references to missing texts, we still could only speculate what it's all about. Just like they did with the big reveal at the end of Star Wars 5. When they filmed that scene, Darth Vader's actor said something completely different than what James Earl Jones later recorded - to keep it all secret, even from their own people. DE could easily do the same.

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14 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

What we are asking for may be perfectly reasonable but it is hardly an industry standard.

But it should be. And if the industry doesn't do it by themselves (because they want to keep their players), it should be enforced by law (as China already does).

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Last time Acolytes appeared I did an aggregate of around 170 for the five of them.

Got only 2 of the 5 rare mods (No AS, no MS, no NB).

I was on the verge of giving up the game, but the more or less fairness of the drop tables kept me playing.

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