Warframe reworks: Why synergies are toxic

[Ultimate_Vault_Hunter]

8 hours ago, malekas said:

I love how many people are making this an issue of "get good", as if there's a mysterious build or special skill that will magically make a frame better.

 

Let's face it, there are frames in this game that are demonstrably weaker than other frames. Of course, any frame can be made to sound good, but that's only if you look at them as if they existed in a vacuum. You can make Mag's CC sound decent, until you realize that there's a lot other frames that put her CC to shame. Atlas' DPS sounds pretty good, until you look at Mesa, Excal, Equinox, Nova, ect., ect. You can't look at frames in a vacuum, they WILL be compared to other frames. And as much as I wish DE would take a serious look at balancing the frames, I don't think it's something they care about. They're too busy chasing the next shiny object.

 

But anyways, back on topic. Synergy is not always a bad thing, but DE is horribly inconsistent at it. I think it depends on who's masterminding the kit. Whoever did Nidus nailed it on all aspects, whoever did Octavia went in reverse since Resonator actively neuters Mallet, and the Oberon and Mag reworks were just lazy (Thankfully Oberon got a bit of a buff due to community outrage, but he still has unnecessary restrictions on some abilities).

I agree with you. But everytime 'balancing' happens, something gets neutered and the power creep gnome climbs a little bit higher up the mountain.

There isn't a need for power creep at all. It is created by community outrage and laziness on DE's part. You can't blame DE for all of it. People want new comtent to be better than old content and then they want old content to be better than the new. It won't change until people put their feet down and stop buying new content... Then the game will get shut down which is even worse.

[(PSN)purpleskullgamin]

4 minutes ago, Ultimate_Vault_Hunter said:

I agree with you. But everytime 'balancing' happens, something gets neutered and the power creep gnome climbs a little bit higher up the mountain.

There isn't a need for power creep at all. It is created by community outrage and laziness on DE's part. You can't blame DE for all of it. People want new comtent to be better than old content and then they want old content to be better than the new. It won't change until people put their feet down and stop buying new content... Then the game will get shut down which is even worse.

ehh there are points i'd agree and points i wouldn't DE is smarter than to let this game get shut down, they'd find a way to around that and at the same time alot of the newer content is nessicaly pay to get like the plains coming out or when rivens came out, if they were to keep there Plat bundles and the keep the new prime/reknown packs coming they should be fine the bigger issue isn't the paid for new stuff it's the shiny's you don't have to pay for and at the same time even with working on the newer stuff it wouldn't be too hard for DE to have a Small team of Like 3-4 working on Balancing and buffing/updating the old stuff at all times and nothing else. Have a small team work on Revamping stuff as need be.

[Ultimate_Vault_Hunter]

Just now, (PS4)purpleskullgamin said:

ehh there are points i'd agree and points i wouldn't DE is smarter than to let this game get shut down, they'd find a way to around that and at the same time alot of the newer content is nessicaly pay to get like the plains coming out or when rivens came out, if they were to keep there Plat bundles and the keep the new prime/reknown packs coming they should be fine the bigger issue isn't the paid for new stuff it's the shiny's you don't have to pay for and at the same time even with working on the newer stuff it wouldn't be too hard for DE to have a Small team of Like 3-4 working on Balancing and buffing/updating the old stuff at all times and nothing else. Have a small team work on Revamping stuff as need be.

It would be nice for that. There are a lot of politics involving the community to deal with too.

[Lockhart77]

Dunno man, Saryn is hella strong, that constant viral proc on 120-150m range effectively halves enemy hp so you can focus on using corrosive or magnetic weapons instead. And the Toxic Lash is pretty strong melee buff too for saryn, really neat with Jat Kittag. You don't really need AoE ish weapon to pop the spores too. Molt is also a good decoy, and the augment for it is hella neat. As for the Miasma, it does feel underwhelming on higher levels, wish it apply corrosive procs too so armor rating gets reduced. The synergy in saryn feels just right to me.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

7 hours ago, Lockhart77 said:

Dunno man, Saryn is hella strong, that constant viral proc on 120-150m range effectively halves enemy hp so you can focus on using corrosive or magnetic weapons instead. And the Toxic Lash is pretty strong melee buff too for saryn, really neat with Jat Kittag. You don't really need AoE ish weapon to pop the spores too. Molt is also a good decoy, and the augment for it is hella neat. As for the Miasma, it does feel underwhelming on higher levels, wish it apply corrosive procs too so armor rating gets reduced. The synergy in saryn feels just right to me.

The synergy that's supposed to carry on lash's poison trough the spores and thus not only complete her kit but also skyrocket her dps literally doesn't work. And they never bothered fixing it. Not only as her prime released.

 

Wrong on so many levels.

[Rakiss]

Volt's a great entry-level frame. All of his abilities are decent at low level and if you focus on one of them it can make for certain sortie 3-viable builds.
I have a max power strength build for him.
Using speed with the blocking combo of the Tempo Royale stance hurls you around the map with enough slams to CC anything in your path. At that level of speed enemies have a hard time hitting you while you blend them.
If there's a raptor assassination he's my frame of choice: sit in the balcony above the entrance, a fair distance behind an electric shield. Snipe the raptor down then use speed to quickly drop down, grab the power core and drop it down a tunnel.
He's also pretty great for non-moon, non-kuva spy missions. Speed gets you through the misery faster and if you screw up, discharge can CC a room long enough for you to hack the terminal.

Saryn's great in any non-endless mission. The higher the enemy density the better.
I run a rage/quick thinking build on her and that eliminates pretty much all energy and health issues. That said, I do keep a sentinel around with all the defensive mods equipped, so the take the survivability point with a grain of salt.

[SergeiTheBeast]

On 7/10/2017 at 9:36 PM, Aeon94 said:

 

2- It doesn't last 1 sec but however I've heard that enemies break free b4 its duration ends , possibly a bug.

 

It's not a bug,  discharge has a damage cap that is affected by enemy armor which is what makes it so horribly inconsistent . I.E. at high levels this is why people claim to see the "one second stun" on his ult. It having a damage cap is what neuters this ability as an ult. If he's meant to be a CC frame and not damage fine, THEN LETS MAKE HIS CC ACTUALLY AND RELIABLY WORK.

 

Either make it duration based via basic duration builds with a cap so you can't infinitely stun mobs or make it PWR STR based with the same cap. Having it have a damage cap is foolish to the point of it doesn't help him shine at all in fact it puts a nasty smear on his kits effectiveness. Volt is a fantastic frame but he needs some retouching to be worth using at any sort of a decent level. Sure he's perfect for "GOTTA GO FAST!" builds but he should be able to do more than that and be a shield dropper.

 

Also while I'm speaking on volts shield, as much as I like it and feel it's a fantastic ability, I don't think it fits into his kit at all in terms of making sense. He's about going fast and CC. Stopping to drop shields you or your allies can use (via augment mods) I don't personally see how that makes sense and I'd like someone to explain it to me (preferably in a mature way) 

Edited July 14, 2017 by SergeiTheBeast

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

Saryn is a excellent support frame, especially against corpus. I take her to sortie extermination missions all the time, especially against corpus. Her spores have a huge range and can go through doors and walls. 

Volt CC and speed synergies is crazy good. I love him on capture missions. Speed boost with Omha, down target, CC, capture target, speed, wipe the room  extract. 

[(PSN)Fen_Integrum]

Having the option of Synergy is very important. This permits that players have the ability to work for more.

In the case of Saryn, some mistakes were made, but honestly, if she was this way from her release, nobody would have blinked at it.

First off, It sounds like you are running low duration or low efficiency. With any frame, Duration may as well double for efficiency, because it is reducing how frequently you need to spend energy.

Second off, Spores is incredibly simple to maintain for a very long time, because each burst spore and birth a plethora of new ones on other enemies. That being the case, one casting

Third, with how effective Saryn is with Duration based Status, and the fact that she can guarantee that everybody effected by Spores will generate Toxin and Viral Procs with regularity. Considering how effective she is at stacking multiple statuses together, which cant normally be generated by the same source (Toxic/Viral/Corrosive), it should be noted that she benefits GREATLY from her synergies, especially with the advent of mods such as Condition Overload.

Fourth, The only reason why Saryn in a point of contention, is because players are trying so hard to make the new Saryn LIKE the old one, that they wind up NEEDING to make her a one trick pony, because it is the closest thing. 

Fifth: If you dont have two to three different builds (per power), then its less likely that the frame is the one trick pony, and more like you are. 

As for Volt, I strongly disagree with...pretty much everything you have had to say.

First off, The energy drain is not a problem. Its taking a power that normally provides a wide shield of cover, and a little bit of CC with an electric charge from Shock, and making it into a mobile defensive ability that nearly mirrors the shocking speed augment, since it can electrocute people

Second off, he has the largest energy pool in the game, Zenurik, Pizzas, and Arcane Energize exist, so if you are having shortages on energy, then you may want to reconsider.

Third, what do you propose for his Passive? Should a passive like this have no cap? If so, what justifies having a passive with no upper limits to the amount of damage stored? You do realize that Shocking speed does not deal damage from the passive, so if it were unlimited, you could perpetually charge it at an absurd rate, right? 

Fourth, Discharge is a very strong power. It is good CC, and doesnt have an unreasonable damage cap, considering it deals scaling damage, and stunlocks enemies.

 

Seriously man, I feel like your priorities are all wrong.