Warframe reworks: Why synergies are toxic

[Ultimate_Vault_Hunter]

2 minutes ago, giovanniluca said:

Harrow's great, Trinity is cancer how to basic, and with launchers you have to git gud.

Harrow's so great that you can take the Zarr and make a granade rain.

So how is Trinity "cancer how to basic" while frames like Ember, Octavia, Nidus, Rhino, Equinox..  etc can be considered 'end game' when most use the same basic build? Trinity has more utility than link and EV.

[Ultimate_Vault_Hunter]

2 minutes ago, Keiiken said:

They said that Volt's CC sucks, if they are building for his CC right they wouldn't have this issue. Hence why i think this is an appropriate reply.

I don't think they are going to get it. Experimentation and experience solve these problems.

[Vafthrudnir]

1 minute ago, Ultimate_Vault_Hunter said:

Ember

This one is in a weird spot because end game it's used for CC, unlike Volt cause she's superior for that.

 

2 minutes ago, Ultimate_Vault_Hunter said:

Octavia

Total boredom, you have to spam all the spells and keep them up, slam your butt to the ground to stay invisible and enojoy doing that for the rest of the mission if it's an endless.

4 minutes ago, Ultimate_Vault_Hunter said:

Rhino, Equinox

Those 2 are stupidly passive too, especially Rhino which is used to buff the other AOE spammers around there, also his 4 is stronger than Volt's and reliable.

5 minutes ago, Ultimate_Vault_Hunter said:

Trinity has more utility than link and EV.

You can play Trinity 2 ways, EV and Link(and by extension Blessing damage reduction buff).

EV is the most requested because infinity energy is good and it's the most used skill on Trinity, also deals insane amount of damage and overshields are nice I guess.

Link is the maybe smart build but only used by who does not want to spawn 2 all the time and useful in comps that don't have shields and don't wanna have them.

The community wants EV Trinity because it's superior just thatk, and building for it kills link and blessing resistence buff but who cares, EV gives also shields.

[Vafthrudnir]

8 minutes ago, Ultimate_Vault_Hunter said:

Experimentation and experience solve these problems.

Experimentation? Volt's ult lasts 1 second when the game gets hard.

[Ultimate_Vault_Hunter]

Just now, giovanniluca said:

Experimentation? Volt's ult lasts 1 second when the game gets hard.

And that's not a major problem when his 2 can get you out of anything just as easily as Nova's 3.

3 minutes ago, giovanniluca said:

This one is in a weird spot because end game it's used for CC, unlike Volt cause she's superior for that.

 

Total boredom, you have to spam all the spells and keep them up, slam your butt to the ground to stay invisible and enojoy doing that for the rest of the mission if it's an endless.

Those 2 are stupidly passive too, especially Rhino which is used to buff the other AOE spammers around there, also his 4 is stronger than Volt's and reliable.

You can play Trinity 2 ways, EV and Link(and by extension Blessing damage reduction buff).

EV is the most requested because infinity energy is good and it's the most used skill on Trinity, also deals insane amount of damage and overshields are nice I guess.

Link is the maybe smart build but only used by who does not want to spawn 2 all the time and useful in comps that don't have shields and don't wanna have them.

The community wants EV Trinity because it's superior just thatk, and building for it kills link and blessing resistence buff but who cares, EV gives also shields.

Nonetheless, Trinity is a tank whem played like a tank, took me a long, long time to get her where i want her so that i can survive like Rhino and still help keep my team topped off on energy and health.

Everyone looks at Trinity as essential support, when she is a well disguised tank capable of handling the horde on her own and still holding the team's heads up to last longer in harder situations.

It's just like the misconception of pre-buff Oberon being terrible. You can't rely entirely ln abilities or weapon loadouts, rather you have to understand the limitations and identify situations that will break your limitations. It happens inherently through experience, if you learn to build simply from others' experience you will not understand fully why it can do for them while you aren't able to make the exact same loadout perform in that way.

Most of the Frames do not need xhange in utility, a few of them do not work as intended, but mostly, they are the skeleton for the player to flesh out. Buffs are always nice, but they always lead to imbalance.

[Nazrethim]

On 10/7/2017 at 8:16 PM, danthedapper said:

-snip-

Synergy in itself is neither good or bad. If done well, it's amaizing. How would Synergy be done well? Simple: Abilities work better when used together, but don't require each other to get their supposed jobs done. Saryn is a bad case of synergy because her abilities absolutely require each other to properly work.

I think DE should develop and rework frames to have synergy, but natural synergy not a enforced one. A good example of Synergy is Rhino: Rhino charge does it's job dealing damage and causing Impact procs on enemies, Iron Skin does it's job absorbing damage and preventing knockdowns and staggers. Combine both (use charge while IS is active) and enemies hit are Blast proc'ed. That's the kind of Synergy DE must develop.

[Keiiken]

36 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Rhino charge does it's job dealing damage and causing Impact procs on enemies, Iron Skin does it's job absorbing damage and preventing knockdowns and staggers. Combine both (use charge while IS is active) and enemies hit are Blast proc'ed. That's the kind of Synergy DE must develop.

Frankly Saryn's abilities are all damage dealers any synergy is most likely going to be most likely be around damage dealing, which leads to people complaining about the Synergy being forced.
Its not like her abilities cannot do their job individually they just do it better when combined.
Making the synergy not about damage dealing would make people say what the point of it.

I am not seeing how your example is applicable.
 

Edited July 12, 2017 by Keiiken

[Vafthrudnir]

24 minutes ago, Ultimate_Vault_Hunter said:

And that's not a major problem when his 2 can get you out of anything just as easily as Nova's 3.

And I throw the problem back, Nova's 4 is so good as CC that makes Volt's 4 subpar even just by being a slow, and also Nova does more damage and grants speed.

Volt's abilities are crap because all the frames have good abilities that incorporate his abilities and are better, and he's heavily punished to use his own just because the shield grants frontal projectile immunity if carried, even Zephyr now gives speed and projectile immunity from every direction,while moving where are her tradeoffs?

Now let's just see what kind of stuff will this glass frame bring and Volt will most likely be even more common.

Edited July 12, 2017 by giovanniluca

[Ultimate_Vault_Hunter]

12 minutes ago, giovanniluca said:

And I throw the problem back, Nova's 4 is so good as CC that makes Volt's 4 subpar even just by being a slow, and also Nova does more damage and grants speed.

Volt's abilities are crap because all the frames have good abilities that incorporate his abilities and are better, and he's heavily punished to use his own just because the shield grants frontal projectile immunity if carried, even Zephyr now gives speed and projectile immunity from every direction,while moving where are her tradeoffs?

Now let's just see what kind of stuff will this glass frame bring and Volt will most likely be even more common.

Every frame does something similar to what another frame does. And Volt's 1 is good enough to make up for his four. He is meant to be mobile and fast all of the time. 

Nova has three ridiculously powered abilities and one awesome quick escape. i love Nova, but you are comparing a caster frame to a utilitarian frame.

Zephyr on the other hand is different, another mobile utilitarian that doesn't do ridiculous amounts of damage, but instead uses her abilities for a quick in and out with excellent protection. So much so that her 3 is the only ability you see most people use. But her other abilities suffer due to having to play chess rather than checkers, which is unlike casters or tanks... Just like Volt.

I find the most utility on Volt to be using 4 and 1 in sequence, if surrounded, 2, and if cornered, 3. Also, using Naramon as focus, the confusion can supplement discharge's utility greatly when there is no obvious path from the typical personal strategical playbook.

The speed boost works wonders if you can parkour

1 chains in ways to make CQ Melee more viable.

4 can either be used synergeticly with one to burden more enemies, or with 2 for a quick escape.

3 is best when cornered to be shot through with a big gun.

[Autongnosis]

1 hour ago, giovanniluca said:

Experimentation? Volt's ult lasts 1 second when the game gets hard.

Have you actually played Volt in harder content? His ult lasts longer the more DR the enemies have...

Edited July 12, 2017 by Autongnosis

[Vafthrudnir]

14 minutes ago, Ultimate_Vault_Hunter said:

Nova has three ridiculously powered abilities and one awesome quick escape. i love Nova, but you are comparing a caster frame to a utilitarian frame.

So since Nova is a caster frame her skills must include Volt's and have them be better?

14 minutes ago, Ultimate_Vault_Hunter said:

Every frame does something similar to what another frame does. And Volt's 1 is good enough to make up for his four.

Again the problem is that he does it worse, his 1 is better than his 4 but then again his 1 is worse than all the other powers that inflict CC, this makes Discharge worse than every first skill in the game, which is not true but it's not good as other 4th spell.

14 minutes ago, Ultimate_Vault_Hunter said:

Naramon

It's getting reworked and frames shouldn't be forced on playing with certain focuses, also naramon forces a melee build.

14 minutes ago, Ultimate_Vault_Hunter said:

confusion can supplement discharge's utility

You need another CC to use Discharge, really? You do admit it's bad.

14 minutes ago, Ultimate_Vault_Hunter said:

The speed boost works wonders if you can parkour

Speed does not affect parkour and it's one of the things I costantly blame about.

14 minutes ago, Ultimate_Vault_Hunter said:

1 chains in ways to make CQ Melee more viable.

 

Most of the spells do that better.

14 minutes ago, Ultimate_Vault_Hunter said:

4 can either be used synergeticly with one to burden more enemies, or with 2 for a quick escape.

When it lasts 1 second you get on the ground and die. Or just die while still flying.

14 minutes ago, Ultimate_Vault_Hunter said:

3 is best when cornered to be shot through with a big gun.

That's ok but the shield is not affected by power strenght and the passive sucks due to it having a limited cap if you play with Transistor Shield.

You guys are ignoring the fact that some of Volt's parts are totally unpraticable like carrying the shield, shocking it or shocking targets under Discharge since it's reported to have an utility but it's totally pointless to do and some of the answers are just don't do it, hell no I want all of his functions to be viable.

Edited July 12, 2017 by giovanniluca

[Ultimate_Vault_Hunter]

2 minutes ago, giovanniluca said:

So since Nova is a caster frame her skills must include Volt's and have them be better?

Again the problem is that he does it worse, his 1 is better than his 4 but then again his 1 is worse than all the other powers that inflict CC, this makes Discharge worse than every first skill in the game, which is not true but it's not good as other 4th spell.

It's getting reworked and frames shouldn't be forced on playing with certain focuses, also naramon forces a melee build.

You need another CC to use Discharge, really? You do admit it's bad.

Speed does not affect parkour and it's one of the things I costantly blame about.

Most of the spells do that better.

When it lasts 1 second you get on the ground and die. Or just die while still flying.

That's ok but the shield is not affected by power strenght and the passive sucks due to it having a limited cap if you play with Transistor Shield.

You guys are ignoring the fact that some of Volt's parts are totally unpraticable like carrying the shield, shocking it or shocking targets under Discharge since it's reported to have an utility but it's totally pointless to do and some of the answers are just don't do it, hell no I want all of his functions to be viable.

So. How the heck do you have your Volt built? 

Discharge is not a bad ability, if you want a truly terrible Ult, play my favorite, Ash.

Nova being a caster has to do with her relying on her abilities to do most of her damage. Volt stuns and uses his abilities to augment the fight to his favor.

He isn't Nova, he isn't Zephyr, he isn't Rhino, he isn't Harrow, he isn't Excalibur. I'm surprised your argument hasn't included Excalibur, a lot of them do. He has a quick damage one, a utility 2, a strange cc aoe bust 3, and a caster 4 that makes everything die.

What i am bringing up, is use the utility of his one and four the se way you use Harrow's one, and Excalibur's 2. Use his 2 as Nova's 3, and use his 3 more as an immobile Zephyr 3 or Rhino 2 for geographical strategy.

The focuses are meant to be utilized, any of them work well, but to pick one to augment and prove your play is smart amd strategic, rather than relying on it for everything. There will always be situations that will overcome you, Volt has a kit that is very good at getting out of situations to gain vantage points to solve them rather than handling them from the inside.

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

Saryn is one of the most powerful frames in the game... Can literally solo any mission any lvl for any length of time, including endless Can u say noob?

 

Mag is superior to many of the cheese frames in this game. Her 1 is cc, her two is arguably most powerful in the game, her 3's synergy with her 2 is nothing short of epic and her 4 is good for slowing down gameplay when the need arises or strippin armor with the Augment.

 

Oberon is one of the best support frames around and if u mod/play him properly... u and ur allies are basically Immortal.

 

[Vafthrudnir]

27 minutes ago, Ultimate_Vault_Hunter said:

Discharge is not a bad ability, if you want a truly terrible Ult, play my favorite, Ash.

Ash is fine, it's just that's it's not the execution show as before.

[Ultimate_Vault_Hunter]

3 minutes ago, giovanniluca said:

Ash is fine, it's just that's it's not the execution show as before.

Have you used him? 4 is something that needs work or changed. Especially with the fatal teleport mod for 3

[Vafthrudnir]

30 minutes ago, Ultimate_Vault_Hunter said:

He has a quick damage one, a utility 2, a strange cc aoe bust 3, and a caster 4 that makes everything die.

I can tell that DE wanted to bring Volt on part with Excalibur with the rework but this didn't happen, also Chromatic blade is op compared to Transistor Shield because Volt must have "limits".

 

32 minutes ago, Ultimate_Vault_Hunter said:

Nova being a caster has to do with her relying on her abilities to do most of her damage. Volt stuns and uses his abilities to augment the fight to his favor.

Which is the same thing that Nova does but better.

 

34 minutes ago, Ultimate_Vault_Hunter said:

What i am bringing up, is use the utility of his one and four the se way you use Harrow's one, and Excalibur's 2. Use his 2 as Nova's 3, and use his 3 more as an immobile Zephyr 3 or Rhino 2 for geographical strategy.

I don't care if his 1 and 4 should be used that way but an ability that changes it's effect based on the position of the enemies if they're too close and are a number bigger than 1, Discharge can't just be used strategically if it's not reliable.

 

37 minutes ago, Ultimate_Vault_Hunter said:

The focuses are meant to be utilized

Maybe but they are to be changed soon due to plains of eidolon.

 

38 minutes ago, Ultimate_Vault_Hunter said:

Volt has a kit that is very good at getting out of situations

If the tools are bad they won't save you.

[Vafthrudnir]

7 minutes ago, Ultimate_Vault_Hunter said:

Have you used him? 4 is something that needs work or changed. Especially with the fatal teleport mod for 3

I tried to get the full stacks on enemies and it looked fine, the problem is that compared to before it takes more time to do and the death fest felt satisfying, but in the other part it was incedibly stupid but I don't know how it can be fast as before and smart at the same time.

[Ultimate_Vault_Hunter]

8 minutes ago, giovanniluca said:

I tried to get the full stacks on enemies and it looked fine, the problem is that compared to before it takes more time to do and the death fest felt satisfying, but in the other part it was incedibly stupid but I don't know how it can be fast as before and smart at the same time.

The main problem lies in the method, your target gets taken out before you can get there, the ability is wasted. Whereas his first three are wonderful.

12 minutes ago, giovanniluca said:

I can tell that DE wanted to bring Volt on part with Excalibur with the rework but this didn't happen, also Chromatic blade is op compared to Transistor Shield because Volt must have "limits".

 

Which is the same thing that Nova does but better.

 

I don't care if his 1 and 4 should be used that way but an ability that changes it's effect based on the position of the enemies if they're too close and are a number bigger than 1, Discharge can't just be used strategically if it's not reliable.

 

Maybe but they are to be changed soon due to plains of eidolon.

 

If the tools are bad they won't save you.

Well then if you can't polish a turd i guess you juat have to flush it.

[Vafthrudnir]

50 minutes ago, Ultimate_Vault_Hunter said:

So. How the heck do you have your Volt built? 

Speed build

Shield build

Boring Discharge build

Also my Volt

[Vafthrudnir]

2 minutes ago, Ultimate_Vault_Hunter said:

Well then if you can't polish

The good thing is Volt is not real and it's a feature of Warframe that can be polished, and I really hope they're not keeping him like this because it was delegated as starter frame while other frames should be way more adequate and currently due to it needing very advanced mods to be remotely viable a newbie can't use it at all and be a burden.

[Ultimate_Vault_Hunter]

1 hour ago, giovanniluca said:

Speed build

Shield build

Boring Discharge build

Also my Volt

What levels are you having trouble at?

It looks like a solid build to me, even more than solid.

1 hour ago, giovanniluca said:

The good thing is Volt is not real and it's a feature of Warframe that can be polished, and I really hope they're not keeping him like this because it was delegated as starter frame while other frames should be way more adequate and currently due to it needing very advanced mods to be remotely viable a newbie can't use it at all and be a burden.

I don't agree with that. My girlfriend started out using Volt, about the time we got to the Void the first time(i had quit playing before specters of the rail and came back) she started using other frames, but from time to time she gets to playing volt again and it's all good. I rarely have to pick her up and she regularly gets more kills than me.

[Vafthrudnir]

40 minutes ago, Ultimate_Vault_Hunter said:

I don't agree with that. My girlfriend started out using Volt,

But she started with your advice, which is different.

 

40 minutes ago, Ultimate_Vault_Hunter said:

What levels are you having trouble at?

Not exactly troubles, I just point what can be done and what can't be done, and his fails in the process.

Go into simulacrum, group 10 enemies of lvl 50 together, make them chase you, and try casting Discharge. I guess infested chargers melees should do.

I hate seeing part of the kit broken/flawed or toxic.

Edited July 12, 2017 by giovanniluca

[Ultimate_Vault_Hunter]

17 minutes ago, giovanniluca said:

But she started with your advice, which is different.

 

Not exactly troubles, I just point what can be done and what can't be done, and his fails in the process.

Go into simulacrum, group 10 enemies of lvl 50 together, make them chase you, and try casting Discharge. I guess infested chargers melees should do.

I hate seeing part of the kit broken/flawed or toxic.

She picked him on her own. For me, the kit feels good. I am not everyone, but i know that not everyone sees problems in the same places.

[malekas]

I love how many people are making this an issue of "get good", as if there's a mysterious build or special skill that will magically make a frame better.

 

Let's face it, there are frames in this game that are demonstrably weaker than other frames. Of course, any frame can be made to sound good, but that's only if you look at them as if they existed in a vacuum. You can make Mag's CC sound decent, until you realize that there's a lot other frames that put her CC to shame. Atlas' DPS sounds pretty good, until you look at Mesa, Excal, Equinox, Nova, ect., ect. You can't look at frames in a vacuum, they WILL be compared to other frames. And as much as I wish DE would take a serious look at balancing the frames, I don't think it's something they care about. They're too busy chasing the next shiny object.

 

But anyways, back on topic. Synergy is not always a bad thing, but DE is horribly inconsistent at it. I think it depends on who's masterminding the kit. Whoever did Nidus nailed it on all aspects, whoever did Octavia went in reverse since Resonator actively neuters Mallet, and the Oberon and Mag reworks were just lazy (Thankfully Oberon got a bit of a buff due to community outrage, but he still has unnecessary restrictions on some abilities).

[(PSN)purpleskullgamin]

6 hours ago, malekas said:

And as much as I wish DE would take a serious look at balancing the frames, I don't think it's something they care about. They're too busy chasing the next shiny object.

And this my friends is how you get Upvotes/Reputation, Preach it how it is Brotha