Warframe reworks: Why synergies are toxic

[Vafthrudnir]

8 hours ago, Aeon94 said:

1- You don't need to pick up shield and get slowed , you can just cast another shield.

Then what's the point of having this ability?

 

3 hours ago, (Xbox One)Knight Raime said:

Nice nitpick.  I don't see why on earth you should be able to fly at the speed of sound AND carry a shield up front that makes you immune to damagge.

Why not having that speed? It's Warframe about not geting everything unrealistic except Volt? A

 

lso it's frontal damage immunity on a 90°, it's not total immunity.

3 hours ago, (Xbox One)Knight Raime said:

Far as I understand his ultimate will persist for the whole duration so long as you don't reach the damage cap by then.  So.  It should be lasting as long as you set it for unless you're building for a damage volt.

No it's a feature of the ability to be bad.

 

4 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

and that's before Strength mods

It's only affected by crits not mods.

 

4 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

Run 200 metres

You expect people to run the whole map to do a single shot? Even then with Transistor Shield the damage is capped so Volt does not scale and people don't carry shields because energy drains are bad in this game.

 

8 hours ago, Aeon94 said:

2- It doesn't last 1 sec but however I've heard that enemies break free b4 its duration ends , possibly a bug.

Again, being bad it's a feature of Discharge.

8 hours ago, Aeon94 said:

3- Unusable for you , other ppl like me enjoys with him. Volt does his job well , I see no issue here.

Unusable abilities:

1) Shield carring: Taking it burns your energy and a specialized build ruins all the other skills, even then when you have contact with an enemy by running on the the ragdoll effect is actually a tap effect where you hear the sound but the effect is not great, shocking the shield is useless and there's no reason to do it unless you consider shock's damage + passiv good but it isn't.

2) Discharge is a troll ability and it has a troll sinergy with shock, when you shock a Discharged target it emits a electricity area damage, for what reason? Shock stuns already, they are already under Discharge(If the ability hasn't troll expired yet), and the damage is nonexistant.

Now can we have a real rework and also fix the disasters put on Shock?

I don't know why people are obsessed in saying that Volt is a good CC frame while even Saryn does that better, at least you know that her ult lasts 3 seconds for sure.

Mag is allowed to do damage and has viable CC too, but also scales, she also has some problems but why does Volt have limits?

Are we forced to play Octavia to scale with enemies? She already gives all what Volt offers, and now also Harrow Boost critical damage and then again he's an amazing gun priest, just wait until DE decides to extend his fire rate and reload buff to the team and Volt becomes even more subpar, Volt is becoming nothing unique frame with each update.

Edited July 11, 2017 by giovanniluca

[Birdframe_Prime]

10 hours ago, danthedapper said:

Saryn has gone from being a one trick pony to another one trick pony

I'll respond to this with a little more constructive thought than I originally meant to.

The real problem with Saryn is that DE forced the inter-dependency on her abilities. Much like with the initial rework on Oberon that forced you to organise all your allies onto Hallowed Ground and then cast your heal to make sure they got the armour boost from Iron Renewal, (but now as long as an ally with Renewal running on them touches the Ground at any point they get the buff) Saryn literally has to cast all her abilities to get the most out of the frame.

However.

Saryn spore and toxin proc farming (even better with a good melee build) and her Regenerative Molt is a solid and dependable system that will debuff and deal damage long past the point where normal frames can go and provide near constant ticks of regenerating health.

The trouble is getting it started, really, and that's why Saryn works best in a group that is built to include her, with lots of aggro-drawing CC that can bring in enemies to a focal point for melee-popping spores and bouncing Toxin procs from one enemy to the other and back. (Also works really well for solo Naramon builds, because the debuff will get things going again if you happen to drop the melee counter.)

In theory it should only take a press of 2, 1, 2, 3 and you're rolling. Molt to draw aggro, Spores cast on Molt for 50% less energy cost, detonate Molt by recasting (puts spores and Toxin procs on every enemy in range), Toxic Lash to start melee-popping her spores, spreading toxin and spores further, and regenerating energy per spore you pop that way.

Repeat this combo and everything, everywhere, will be on half-health, getting multiple ticks of damage from Toxin and Viral, and suffering from even bigger ticks when you kill an enemy to spread the toxin and viral to new enemies due to the rule of Toxin procs taking 35% of the damage dealt to cause them per tick triggering off your melee hit.

If you're not looking into melee, then explosive weapons or snipers that deal high single-shot damage also work really well due to that same aspect of the Toxin proc taking that high damage with it over to the next enemy for that single proc, meaning that a lot of enemies will just die from tick damage around the first enemy you killed, spreading your spores more and more.

When people say that they're doing top damage on sortie level, it's not a joke, you really can because your abilities just spread and spread the damage in high radial arcs away from the point you kill an initial enemy.

In fact, due to the way the debuff and spreading range works, it actually gets better and better the higher the enemy levels get, since it's far more rewarding to pop multiple spores on an enemy than it is just to kill them, more ticks of damage spread and more procs overall... the greater the punishment an enemy can take, the more Saryn can pull energy from them and the more she can cast.

So yes, Saryn doesn't seem good at low level, and it takes concentration and effort to get her to high level, but once you're rolling through a survival or mobile defense or interception with proc after proc raining down on enemies... yeah, it's an amazing frame to have.

[Aeon94]

2 hours ago, giovanniluca said:

 fix the disasters put on Shock?

How exactly can Shock be that bad ? It's a mainly CC ability that deals some damage and gets damage boost from his passive. Shock has some interaction with other abilities but they are not forced synergies.

Edited July 11, 2017 by Aeon94

[Vafthrudnir]

3 minutes ago, Aeon94 said:

How exactly Shock can be that bad ?

With the update/rework Shock  gained targeting issues and also a delay was introduced to it's recasting, occasionally targets ignore the fact they're stunned and still shoot.

 

5 minutes ago, Aeon94 said:

Shock has some interaction with other abilities but they are not forced synergies.

But still they are part of the warframe's strenght and balance, not forced but why have them if in the first place they're useless.

[bl4ckhunter]

15 hours ago, Ceryk said:

As for Volt, his primary function is CC, not damage. His passive is merely a boost. As far as I am concerned he's one of the better frames. His abilities are powerful without being stupidly OP.

He's just underwelming.

The passive is not a boost, it's useless behind being irrilevant, Discharge is pretty much the worst aoe cc in the game if you exclude hydroid and mag becouse not only it has a cap but enemies will randomly break out of it to take potshots at you, the shield has too many downsides to be worth using, speed is decent but even then nezha, zephyr and nova have him beat and shock it's your generic elemental 1 ability that doesn't do a whole lot of anything and the 'synergy' effects with other abilities are either entirely visual or so irrelevant that they might as well be only visuals.

He's not unplayable but so is hydroid either, doesn't mean it doesn't need work, as it is it's just a trap for newbies.

[herflik]

I main VOLT since I really like the aspect of speed frame, but to be honest, he is designed in a way that make DE looks like they are undecided in what direction to go with the frame.

He have:

1)Shock - I put on description - " It stuns and deals high damage to a single target and chains damage to nearby enemies. " - the stun is barely any stun comparing to the CC other frames can do. "Deal high damage", it deals superb low DPS, even if I could recast it in infinity I could outdps myself with mediacore moded gun or blade without smallest problem. Its supposed to be HIGH DAMAGE chain lightning ability. Its stun can be as it is as long as the skill has truly high dmg.

2)Speed - only good ability on volt for me. The speed is really noticable on both guns, blades and movement, thats the main aspect of volt comparing to other frames  Doesnt need any change IMO.

3)Electric shield - its not bad ability, it give cover and boost dmg of guns. Basicaly a tactical deployable ability that works as offense and defense, the ability is really good if you use it to boost damage of guns moded into critical hits. Though for melee its useless in current state, the "pick it up" was supposed to be the side of the skill that gave any use of it for melee weapon playstyle. This is the only part of the ability that need a rework - it shouldnt cost any energy to pick it up since it already reduce the shield and prevent you and your party from gaining the damage buffs. Also the shield shouldnt ragdoll enemies, thats counter-melee CC with is just plain stupid decision from DE side.

4)Discharge - just plain useless ability. The CC duration is low comparing to other frames CC abilities, the damage is capped and thus also low. I can also outdps the whole ability with mediacore gun or sword easly. If i spend energy I excpect it to boost my DPS or give good utility instead of lowering it.

5)Passive - oh God, another ability that force you to lower your DPS to deal a tiny bit higher dmg in a single hit, useless to maximum. There is no time in SPEED FRAME to wait and charge your passive.

IMO all frames should be made so their abilities are usefull and fit the description. I would change volt so his all abilities support both gun and melee play in ofcourse speed-play fashion:

1)Shock - higher base damage. Apply debuff to enemy for the duration of stun, during that time your attack on enemy charge faster your passive.

2)Speed - no changes

3)Electric shield - no pickup and travel cost, no ragdoll on hit but charge your passive on hit instead, reduce critical damage multiplier by 50-100% (200% is really high if someone know how to boost his/her team).

4)Discharge - totall rework - cost no mana, spend all your passive charge points to boost next cast of each ability, also restore % of your totall energy equal to points spend (remember Volt is also one of main energy frames, its electricity for the sake):

    *shock - for each point spend increase damage by 1%, stun duration by 1%, number of chains by 1%

    *speed - for each point spend increase the duration by 1% and add 1% electric damage to all your attacks

    *electric shield - for each point spend increase the duration by 1%, the shield change to a dome (360 degrees) when stationary, when picked up it will make your melee attack cast weaker version of shock (rank 1 or 2)

5)Passive - store up to 100 charges in it, each point of charge deal 1 dmg per second to surrounding enemies. Your restore charge with your attacks instead of movement (to slow it down, since there is less points).

Edited July 11, 2017 by herflik

[(PSN)purpleskullgamin]

7 hours ago, herflik said:

I main VOLT since I really like the aspect of speed frame, but to be honest, he is designed in a way that make DE looks like they are undecided in what direction to go with the frame.

He have:

1)Shock - I put on description - " It stuns and deals high damage to a single target and chains damage to nearby enemies. " - the stun is barely any stun comparing to the CC other frames can do. "Deal high damage", it deals superb low DPS, even if I could recast it in infinity I could outdps myself with mediacore moded gun or blade without smallest problem. Its supposed to be HIGH DAMAGE chain lightning ability. Its stun can be as it is as long as the skill has truly high dmg.

2)Speed - only good ability on volt for me. The speed is really noticable on both guns, blades and movement, thats the main aspect of volt comparing to other frames  Doesnt need any change IMO.

3)Electric shield - its not bad ability, it give cover and boost dmg of guns. Basicaly a tactical deployable ability that works as offense and defense, the ability is really good if you use it to boost damage of guns moded into critical hits. Though for melee its useless in current state, the "pick it up" was supposed to be the side of the skill that gave any use of it for melee weapon playstyle. This is the only part of the ability that need a rework - it shouldnt cost any energy to pick it up since it already reduce the shield and prevent you and your party from gaining the damage buffs. Also the shield shouldnt ragdoll enemies, thats counter-melee CC with is just plain stupid decision from DE side.

4)Discharge - just plain useless ability. The CC duration is low comparing to other frames CC abilities, the damage is capped and thus also low. I can also outdps the whole ability with mediacore gun or sword easly. If i spend energy I excpect it to boost my DPS or give good utility instead of lowering it.

5)Passive - oh God, another ability that force you to lower your DPS to deal a tiny bit higher dmg in a single hit, useless to maximum. There is no time in SPEED FRAME to wait and charge your passive.

IMO all frames should be made so their abilities are usefull and fit the description. I would change volt so his all abilities support both gun and melee play in ofcourse speed-play fashion:

1)Shock - higher base damage. Apply debuff to enemy for the duration of stun, during that time your attack on enemy charge faster your passive.

2)Speed - no changes

3)Electric shield - no pickup and travel cost, no ragdoll on hit but charge your passive on hit instead, reduce critical damage multiplier by 50-100% (200% is really high if someone know how to boost his/her team).

4)Discharge - totall rework - cost no mana, spend all your passive charge points to boost next cast of each ability, also restore % of your totall energy equal to points spend (remember Volt is also one of main energy frames, its electricity for the sake):

    *shock - for each point spend increase damage by 1%, stun duration by 1%, number of chains by 1%

    *speed - for each point spend increase the duration by 1% and add 1% electric damage to all your attacks

    *electric shield - for each point spend increase the duration by 1%, the shield change to a dome (360 degrees) when stationary, when picked up it will make your melee attack cast weaker version of shock (rank 1 or 2)

5)Passive - store up to 100 charges in it, each point of charge deal 1 dmg per second to surrounding enemies. Your restore charge with your attacks instead of movement (to slow it down, since there is less points).

I have no clue what you are talking about in regards to him, really need to work on your grammar seems like you are trying to get a different frame entirely out of him. But in regards to your suggestion for shock, I'm not sure it getting higher starting damage is what it needs if I'm correct it lacks scaling which i believe would be of more use. 

[-BKB-SamuarJoe]

i feel offended as you say saryn prime is not energy efficient
*psst thats why DE has place her 300 energy pool which the HIGHest energy pool (this include volt p) among all other frame not accounting of primed flow = 880*
*which is more than enough to cast miasma her ability 8 times with 45% power efficiency*

[Vafthrudnir]

14 hours ago, herflik said:

2)Speed - only good ability on volt for me. The speed is really noticable on both guns, blades and movement, thats the main aspect of volt comparing to other frames  Doesnt need any change IMO.

But Valkyr has basically the same ability except that it lasts more, costs 3x, and gives armor, slows enemies but does not give the reload buff, which is weaker than a mod.

Considering that she does not need range mods her speed becomes way better.

6 hours ago, (PS4)purpleskullgamin said:

This is the only part of the ability that need a rework - it shouldnt cost any energy to pick it up since it already reduce the shield and prevent you and your party from gaining the damage buffs. Also the shield shouldnt ragdoll enemies, thats counter-melee CC with is just plain stupid decision from DE side.

You know valkyr is full invulnerable but doesn't drain energy/distance traveled lol, anyway the shield ragdoll is a good thing, it could be fun if it was good since it doesn't really ragdoll like a train slamming on enemies but just taps. Anyway it could ragdoll based on your speed so no disruption on melee.

[Xaero]

Comparing old and new Saryn is the same as comparing old and new Mesa. You have to do more, but the result is also much better.

[(PSN)FunyFlyBoy]

On 7/10/2017 at 11:19 PM, YUNoJump said:

You don't even need a bow for Artemis, any primary will work but Artemis will also pick up bow-specific mods like Thunderbolt. 

Any rifle or bow category primary. Shotguns are excluded.

[Vafthrudnir]

38 minutes ago, Ksaero said:

Comparing old and new Saryn is the same as comparing old and new Mesa. You have to do more, but the result is also much better.

New Saryn is cool but I wish they'd made her 3 passive and introduced a new spell.

[Autongnosis]

On 11/7/2017 at 1:22 AM, JSharpie said:

My Saryn Build is crazy,

My Mag Build is crazy.

My Oberon Build is crazy.

My Volt Build is crazy. 

I think you're building wrong.

I second completely.

Also imho you're labeling Sarynas one trick pony wrong. One trick pony is Nidus, where every ability's purpose is feeding your 1. Saryn works in a different way: her 1 is the framework on which every other ability builds up to do more.

[Ultimate_Vault_Hunter]

On 07/10/2017 at 7:22 PM, JSharpie said:

My Saryn Build is crazy,

My Mag Build is crazy.

My Oberon Build is crazy.

I think you're building wrong.

Just gotta play smart, even if the mods you have are like trying to sculpt a masterpiece from a turd.

All frames are good if you know how to use them... I still don't know why i dislike Limbo and love Ash so much, but we all have preferences.

Everyone needs to understand that the way joe blow on youtube builds his might not work for you and you will have to experiment and strategize every build you do.

[Vafthrudnir]

18 minutes ago, Autongnosis said:

My Volt Build is crazy. 

I think you're building wrong.

 

19 minutes ago, Autongnosis said:

I second completely.

Stop with that, there can't possibly be crazy Volt builds since boosting something kills the other aspects, he's not Ember, Loki, Trinity or Octavia.

[Ultimate_Vault_Hunter]

16 minutes ago, giovanniluca said:

 

Stop with that, there can't possibly be crazy Volt builds since boosting something kills the other aspects, he's not Ember, Loki, Trinity or Octavia.

Why not?

For one, min/maxing doesn't work with every frame, and I'd argue against it in most if not all situations.

The way i build volt is without flow or streamline, the only shield buff is from Vigor, give him Rage and Equilibrium. Slap Intensify and Natural Talent on him and you are cooking with fire.

Edited July 12, 2017 by Ultimate_Vault_Hunter
added explanation

[Autongnosis]

29 minutes ago, giovanniluca said:

Stop with that, there can't possibly be crazy Volt builds since boosting something kills the other aspects, he's not Ember, Loki, Trinity or Octavia.

Not true at all. IE if you don't need to go fast you can completely forgoe strenght with no downsides.

If you want a melee domination build you can forgo both efficiency and range with no problems. 

Volt can both be an excellent shock trooper or an excellent CC / buffer frame.

I really don't understand how people think Volt is bad to be honest. He's got hard CC, an excellent panic button, a pretty good melee buff, and one of the most powerful defensive/offensive deployables in the entire game. And his passive can, with the right weapon and augment, translate into an humongous amount of extra danage. What's wrong exactly? 

Edited July 12, 2017 by Autongnosis

[Vafthrudnir]

13 minutes ago, Ultimate_Vault_Hunter said:

Why not?

For one, min/maxing doesn't work with every frame, and I'd argue against it in most if not all situations.

The way i build volt is without flow or streamline, the only shield buff is from Vigor, give him Rage and Equilibrium. Slap Intensify and Natural Talent on him and you are cooking with fire.

If you like that way it's ok but I hardly think anyone else would like that build.

Vigor: meh, Primed? Quick thinking is way better.

Rage: can work but then again if you expose Volt to damage you're gonna die soon. Goes better with quick thinking.

Equilibrium: Volt has no way to create orbs so I don't know why this is here.

Natural Talent: Only useful in Discharge builds maybe, otherwise just another way to make Volt weaker wasting his slots.

[Ultimate_Vault_Hunter]

1 minute ago, Autongnosis said:

Not true at all. IE if you don't need to go fast you can comoletely forgoe strenght with no downsides.

If you want a melee domination build you can forgo both efficiency and range with no problems. 

Volt can both be an excellent shock trooper or an excellent CC / buffer frame.

I really don't understand how people think Volt is bad to be honest. He's got hard CC, an excellent panic button, a pretty good melee buff, and one of the most powerful defensive/offensive deployables in the entire game. What's wrong exactly? 

They want to be able to stack mods on him and go straight to dropping level 100s without ever going down. A good Frame isn't godly, a good operator knows how to play its puppet

[Vafthrudnir]

3 minutes ago, Ultimate_Vault_Hunter said:

They want to be able to stack mods on him and go straight to dropping level 100s without ever going down. A good Frame isn't godly, a good operator knows how to play its puppet

Stop playing the "they want it easy" part, Volt is flawed, have a look at the forums.

Edited July 12, 2017 by giovanniluca

[Ultimate_Vault_Hunter]

2 minutes ago, giovanniluca said:

If you like that way it's ok but I hardly think anyone else would like that build.

Vigor: meh, Primed? Quick thinking is way better.

Rage: can work but then again if you expose Volt to damage you're gonna die soon. Goes better with quick thinking.

Equilibrium: Volt has no way to create orbs so I don't know why this is here.

Natural Talent: Only useful in Discharge builds maybe, otherwise just another way to make Volt weaker wasting his slots.

Rage alongside Equilibrium works well. Mostly just use 1, 2, and 4 with Volt. I also find that plenty of energy orbs drop long enough to keep him alive and keep my energy pool full. Also, armored agility can be nice on him too.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Volt became a raid fit Cc frame tho while saryn on the other side suffers from a bug that prevents her actuall synergy as her spores clearly do not provide the extra damage that has been announced and still is listed in the wiki.

 

Her spores should, in theory, spread and accumulate poison proccs which are to be released on the burst to spread it further. Attacking spored enemys with her toxic leash (+- independent poison proccs on weapons) is supposed to spread to the enemys surrounding your targets and further up your damage as soon as you attack then or trigger the spores otherwise (decoy, miasama in body height)

The base for this is 25% of the summ of all damage sources that (!) triggered the proccs, meaning 25% of all of the 30% off the weapons base guaranteed per hit, plus proccs that scale off 100% base and are further affected by toxic mods, both beein affected by crit and stealth in one burst, affected by strength, which are to be spread further and participate in the next burst.

She should in theory be able spread poison together with her spores, play melee effectively by strongly infusing damage into the spores, have a extra synergy as her other abilitys destroy spores but none of this works. What of course reduces her to a onetrick pony since the raw spore damage is the only thing that does indeed work.

 

Theyr reworks are usually on spot, it's just that they do not put any work into the game as soon as it becomes unecessary...

[Ultimate_Vault_Hunter]

Just now, giovanniluca said:

Stop playing the "they want it easy part" Volt is flawed, have a look at the forums.

Just like how other Tenno complain about a launcher doing self-damage? They complain Trinity isn't strong enough, or Harrow isn't good?

[Vafthrudnir]

6 minutes ago, Ultimate_Vault_Hunter said:

Just like how other Tenno complain about a launcher doing self-damage? They complain Trinity isn't strong enough, or Harrow isn't good?

Harrow's great, Trinity is cancer how to basic, and with launchers you have to git gud, otherwise you'd see people running in infested and shooting missiles on their feets.

Harrow's so great that you can take the Zarr and make a granade rain.

I guess Harrow's only problem is that there's too much reliance on guns and the abilities are too simple to execute, except Covenant's damage part.

Edited July 12, 2017 by giovanniluca

[Keiiken]

On 7/10/2017 at 7:40 PM, Omega-Shadowblade said:

How rude. They found a playstyle that works, don't be a jerk and say they don't know how to play him, ask what their strategy is and at least consider it before shooting it down.

They said that Volt's CC sucks, if they are building for his CC right they wouldn't have this issue. Hence why i think this is an appropriate reply.